Disciple.Luke

On 1/31/2022 at 2:29 PM, Blessed by his grace said:

I will not listen to any Pentecostal preachers, I spent , out of ignorance, my first 10 years of being saved in Charismatic churches and they do MUCH HARM.                                                  

Me too. I did not grow up in a religious family. God and the Bible were just never discussed even though we had one on the shelf. I found Jesus outside of church so I had no idea how or what to believe. Unfortunately I believed that the people on TBN were a reflection of true Christianity, and because of that my first few years were frustrated from listening to them. It wasn't until I started searching by attending different churches in person before I started to pick up on basic beliefs.

5 hours ago, Razor said:

6.     The story of Jesus’s birth as told in the Qur’an is also the story of his first miracle, when he spoke as an infant in the cradle and declared himself to be a prophet of God. Here’s the story.

https://www.vox.com/2017/12/18/10660648/jesus-in-islam-muslims-believe-christmas-quran

 

Yeah the Quran also mentions Jesus forming a bird out clay and making it come to life by blowing in it's nostril. Muhammad seems to be getting his information from the Gnostic Gospel of Mary.

I was watching a video just the other day of a Rabbi and his family converting to Islam. When the Imam gave them the microphone to say the profession of faith he also had them bear witness in Arabic acknowledging the prophethood of Jesus (Isa). I assume the Imam purposely had them acknowledge Jesus since as Jews they had rejected him altogether.

On 1/30/2022 at 4:09 PM, E Morales said:

I notice that the islamic churches are reaching out to the community and growing here in Florida. They are handling out boxes of food, and more to help. This is a smart move on their part. How can we get them to accept us, the American. Convert one at a time…

I watch a lot of videos that have to do with Islam, and over the last month one of the main advertisements before the video is asking for donations to turn a former Florida church into a Masjid. I believe there are many misconceptions about Islam here in America but those advertisements truly disturb me as it feels like they enjoy the idea of a church building becoming a place of worship for Muslims.

In Israel the King of Jordan (Who is a direct descendant of Muhammad and part of the Hashemite dynasty that ruled Arabia until Great British helped the House of Saud take over the country) is the custodian of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Greek Orthodox seem to have no problem with it. The Jordanian Kings have never tried to take over the but in fact are supportive and even paid for renovation years ago when it caught on fire.

The relationship between Christians and Muslims varies depending on what school of thought ( or jurisprudence) the local Muslims follow. On one hand you have the hardline "Saudi fundamentalists or Salafis" who believe in conquering and converting. Then you have men like Ayatollah Sistani in Iraq who is extremely powerful but desires peace and is well known for his thoughtful approach to Islam and it's relationship with other religions.

It bothers me to see Muslims turning churches into places of worship, but what bothers me more is the loss of faith in Christ here in America resulting in these building being available for sell. 

40 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Not according to the Bible. The New Testament gives churches instructions on what they are to believe and how they are to conduct themselves. This activity/belief/practice twists the Word of God, places people in danger, and gives the lost reasons to speak against the Lord and His Word.

A church having autonomy means no other church has authority over them - it does not mean they have complete freedom to make things up as they go along. Other believers and churches have the right and responsibility to expose them and warn against what they are doing.

I'm not in disagreement with you. In both posts I stated that their worship and beliefs are unbiblical.

My opinion is only in reference to the right to worship in the United States of America.

"My goal is to reach the end satisfied and at peace with my loved ones and my conscience".

That sentence alone sounds like someone who is trying to earn a better afterlife through good works by loving his family and having a good "conscience". He's trying to obtain what only can Christ can give us.

On 1/23/2022 at 3:51 PM, PastorMatt said:

The issue I see with that is who is the one that decides what puts peoples life in danger? In Ct here, properly spanking children is seen as putting kids in danger.

I believe they have every right to worship how they believe - under the conditions that the act is done by consenting adults who can mentally comprehend the danger, and they aren't teaching that Salvation is jeopardized by not participating. 

This whole belief system is a result misinterpreting scripture. This movement started out of the false beliefs of Pentecostalism and just became more distorted. I have heard several people interviewed from these churches and the common belief seems to be how they follow the "ENTIRE" bible and don't pick and choose what to believe. When they make that statement it is direct reference to Pentecostals who speak in tongues and the other "Signs" but avoid the serpent handling comment in Mark.

Error begets error and in this case the Pentecostal - Holiness bible interpretation has evolved into a deadly misunderstanding of the bible. My criticism to these churches would be to caution them about holding a belief based on a single verse and not reading it in context of the entire Bible like they insist they are doing.

I have a question that I'd love to hear some of you opine on. 

So the snake handling part of their services have been made illegal in every state except West Virginia I believe. From the snake handlers view they believe they have right to practice their religion as they are fit, and even where it's illegal they do it anyway believing it's better to obey "God rather than men". On the flip side the authorities make the argument that it's not about religious rights but as a crime to have poisonous snakes without the proper permits or security standards of how they are caged.

I don't believe snake handling in church is biblical, but I do understand how someone could read verses in Mark and convince themselves they are obeying God.

If a Jehovah's witness has a protected religious right to refuse blood transfusions for themselves and children in life threatening situations then I don't see how that is much different than grown adults handling snakes at their own risk?

Is snake handling religious freedom or a crime?

On 1/17/2022 at 8:41 AM, PastorMatt said:

Has anyone come across snake handling churches in their lifetime? This is not common in the New England, but maybe some of you in the hills may have come across this.

Older video here, but I still found it interesting.

 

I've never been to a snake handling church but have spent a lot of time watching YouTube videos and some reading about them. I noticed that nearly all of them fall into the Oneness Pentecostal theological group, so it doesn't surprise me that one erroneous doctrine can give way to insane practices like this. I understand where they justify snake handling and drinking poison from Mark 16 but I've always wondered what verse they use to support those bottle fire torches believing God has promised to protect them from it? 

On 1/10/2022 at 11:39 AM, BrotherTony said:

The church my wife and I are members of uses the the HCSB. We're not fond of it, but compare everything the preacher says against the KJV. We don't like the CSB at all. 

I haven't heard of any churches that use the HCSB. Isn't the Holman publishers and translators from the Southern Baptist Convention?

I was just looking at the Holman KJV Study Bible and am considering buying it. If anyone on here has the Holman Study Bible I'd love to hear what you think about or recommend it?

18 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

I have a 1977 and a 1995 translation. I use them primarily for commentary. I wish they'd leave things alone after the initial translation. Updating oftentimes seems like such a waste of time and usually ruins the  translation, IMHO. 

Yeah I for sure feel like 1977 edition was good how it was, and would rather read it over 95 any day. I didn't care for the 1995 edition. I respected it's accuracy but I found it rather difficult to hold my attention when reading it. I would reference it often when I wanted see how a verse read word for word but it wasn't my go to other than the KJV. 

18 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

We kneew Brother Crockett well, and I always appreciated his testimony and how he stayed steadfast before the Lord during all of his challenges. What a great example of God's grace being sufficient. 

He accomplished much for the. Lord here in Anderson. 

After Leigh passed his son Josh stepped into the pulpit and brought Pastor Doug back to Grace. I knew Josh much more than his father as he and I were the same age. Unfortunately God called Josh back to Greenville, SC where he went to college to Pastor a much larger congregation there (Morningside Baptist). I believe Josh's brother Nathan is teacher at Bob Jones as well so that's where most of the Crockett's live now. 

Josh weathered the storm and made sure Grace was back on its feet before he left for his new calling. Bringing Pastor Doug back was a huge help while the church was looking for a new Pastor.

I know Pastor Leigh really helped Indiana Christian Academy grow during his Pastorate which as you know has been a blessing to me and my son.

Did you know Pastor Don Camp? That was way before my time but I still hear his name and family brought up even after all the years that have passed since he was at Grace.

On 11/19/2013 at 6:03 AM, RSS Robot said:

Print

 

Updated November 19, 2013 (first published July 30, 1998) (David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143) -

 

 

http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/zz_gaithers.gif

Bill and Gloria Gaither are graduates of Anderson College, a Church of God school, and they attend a Nazarene church (“Church of the Nazarene,” About.com). They have written some very popular and well-known gospel music, such as “He Touched Me,” “Thanks to Calvary,” and “There’s Something about That Name.”

 

 

Since the early 1990s, the Gaither’s Homecoming CD and video series has dramatically increased the popularity of Southern Gospel music in this generation.

Sadly, the Gaithers have used their vast influence to promote the lie that music is neutral and thus to encourage the deep inroads that the world has made into Southern Gospel. They have also promoted the unscriptural ecumenical movement with its bogus “judge not” philosophy and its lack of concern about doctrinal purity and its disobedience to commands such as Romans 16:17 and Jude 3.

 

Gaither Believes that Music Is Neutral
 

In the 1980s Gaither bought into contemporary Christian music’s foundational premise that “MUSIC IS NEUTRAL” and that any type of sensual music can be used to glorify God.

During a concert tour in New England in 1986, Gaither admitted that he had changed his musical style due to the influence of the “world’s culture.” He said he believed there was a place for Christian rock, and he expressed his philosophy of music in these words: “God speaks through all different kinds of art forms and musical styles and musical forms” and the “format itself is not necessarily spiritual or non-spiritual” (FBF News Bulletin, March-April 1986, p. 3).

The following is an eyewitness description of the Gaither’s appearance at the Southern Baptist Convention in St. Louis in 1980: “The Bill Gaither Trio entertained 15,000 Southern Baptists on Sunday evening with a musical program worldly enough to make any true believer weep. The music was so loud that some people left and others put their hands to their ears to block the intense amplification of the music” (Robert S. Reynolds, “Southern Baptists on the Downgrade: Report on the 1980 SBC Convention in St. Louis,” Foundation, Volume VI, Issue 1, 1985, p. 9).

The Gaithers have increasingly used rock rhythms in their music. During the disco craze in the late 1980s, the Gaither Trio recorded a disco album (Calvary Contender, August 15, 1989). The Gaithers have a song titled “Singin’ with the Saints” which is a boogie-woogie version of “He Keeps Me Singing.” This is confusion.
 

 

View the full article

 

I realize this thread was started several years ago, and normally would not revive such an ancient topic but I actually know something about what has been said.

I live in Anderson, IN where the Church of God is headquartered and not far from the small town Bill and Gloria live in. Many years ago as a new believer the first several churches I attended were Church of God (Anderson) and would occasionally see the Gaithers in passing before or after service. 

I personally do not listen to or enjoy the Gaithers music. I just don't care for the style or like the music of the other singers they normally perform with. One reason is partly because of the reason mentioned in the initial post about how they sing songs from almost every denomination even if the message of the song itself contradicts the doctrinal lyrics of the next song performed. I personally take issue with that but that is just my own personal belief.

THe reason the Gaithers music can be described as "non denominational" is directly related to the churches they attend. Historically the Church of God started out as a very strict "Holiness" church who was Wesleyan-Arminian theologically and believed their movement was fore told by prophecy and scripture. Their message was for other Christians to "come out" of denominationalism and join them as the true "Church".

By the time I started attending that initial identity was an ancient belief. The movement had been so strict and legalistic in the past that the new generation of Pastors were so scared of past criticism to the point that they shyed away from from any definitive doctrine or belief that made any exclusive claims of their denomination. This view that their original beliefs were something to be ashamed of quickly led it to see itself as "non denominational" and refused to say anything that may be controversial or offend any other groups labeled as Christian made it a church with no clear definition and an increasingly progressive attitude toward sin or even the mention of it.

I watched from the pews as addressing sin became less and less common...to the point that you could attend five weeks straight without an altar call. It's hard to sell Jesus if the sin he died for isn't preached on Sundays. To the churches credit it did put it's foot down when it came to the definition of marriage being  man and a women, but since the congregations are free to believe what they want the pulse of the church was moving away from traditional marriage despite the leaders stance.

In many ways this shift in identity could be seen in the Gaithers themselves. The hymn books were becoming more of a decoration than a way to sing a long with the music of Sunday morning. Before long every Church of God I attended had turned worship into a modern rock concert. I believe this was partly because children of influential members in Anderson (like Sandi Patty for instance) preferred their own style of music and quickly spread across the whole movement.

Once the music changed the doctrinal domino's began to fall  and it seemed nothing was off limits to God anymore...including homosexuality. While the church wasn't promoting unbiblical sexuality they weren't discouraging it either by ignoring the subject. 

Like many other holiness churches at the time they were redefining what it meant to be "holy". Instead of trying to live out a life of personal and,physical holiness they instead insisted holiness was "loving all people like Jesus without being judgemental". It wasn't long before "loving" was synonymous with not offending anyone. Today most of the churches thriving here because the Sunday menu consists of rock music and having your ears and ego tickled with feel good seminar based on one or two isolated verses out of The Message or New Living Translation.

Like I already mentioned...the Gaither beliefs are a mirror of the Church of God (Anderson, IN). I could give several examples of the local Church of God "elite" ignoring blatant sinful behavior while refusing to confront the fellow believer with scripture choosing to just "love" them for who they are. I will refrain from specifics as my intention is to add some commentary to the original post...not to gossip.

On 12/31/2021 at 11:17 AM, baptist senior said:

While Jesus was on earth He healed anyone that asked or was asked for by someone else.  What are your thoughts on why there is so much sickness amongst Christians that goes unhealed ? 

I believe God can and does still heal when that's his will, but sickness is an unfortunate consequence of a sinful world.  As Christians we are supposed to be spiritually not of the world but we are still physically in a fallen world where sickness and death comes for everyone.

I would agree with the others who point out that the healings during Jesus earthly ministry were to validate the claims and identity of Jesus of Nazareth. If healings were continually occurring even among believers everyone with enough faith would be virtually immortal and in a way forcing God to be subordinate to human will instead of his own sovereign plan.

The former Pastor here was diagnosed  with brain cancer that was already at a stage that they had to do surgery or he would've died very quickly. While Pastor Leigh Crockett was in the hospital preparing for surgery his IFB congregation were on their knees desperately praying for God to intercede. 

When the doctors did the next brain scan they were shocked to see that the cancer had changed form into a non life threatening stage. God had interceded and prolonged Pastor Crockett's time on earth. This was not some Benny Hinn or TBN  emotional fake healing...this case was documented into the official health books as something that had never been seen or recorded before. 

This Pastor from a small Indiana town was interviewed on national news agencies along with the doctors who verified it was nothing short of a miracle. If you Google the his name there may still be footage of it somewhere on YouTube. 

I knew Pastor Crockett and eventually became a member of Grace Baptist so I know first hand that the story was not only real but a modern miracle. About seven years later the cancer returned and eventually the beloved Pastor lost his battle with cancer and went home to be with the Lord.

I Know for sure that God can and will heal people today, but it only happens when it's in his will to do so. We all hope for good health and miraculous healing for people we love, but Jesus didn't welcome the death of his body for us to avoid death in this life. All I know is that God in his wisdom sacrificed his son to reverse sins curse so that our death here isn't the end but is just a step into eternity for the believer.

On 12/31/2021 at 11:17 AM, baptist senior said:

While Jesus was on earth He healed anyone that asked or was asked for by someone else.  What are your thoughts on why there is so much sickness amongst Christians that goes unhealed ? 

5 minutes ago, Yeshuafan said:

The Lsb is very sound, pretty much a revised nas 1977, and main reason why was that the Nas 2020 went into inclusive languaging, reads more like the Csb and Niv now!

Yes I was very disappointed with the 2020 revision. I bought it and sent it back for a refund a few days later. I like the 1977 NASB even more than the 1995 version.

1 hour ago, BrotherTony said:

Great to see you posting again, Luke! I was wondering if you'd left the forums or were just lurking!

 

Thank you brother. I just haven't logged in for quite awhile. I've been so distracted with other things lately I just haven't had much time. I had an email earlier telling me there was a new post in this thread so I logged in to see how the conversation was going.

I have a lot of unread content to get caught up on.

3 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

All of them are heretics listed here, and know their teachings well, as was a teaching Elder in the AOG before becoming Baptist!

My favorite go to guys were those such as Dr Sproul, and Dr MacArthur now!

Agreed. Justin Peters does a fantastic job as well by making videos like this. Not only is biblically sound but he is extremely witty which makes his presentations even more enjoyable. I only wish Justin would use the KJV instead of the MacArthurs Legacy Standard Bible in his recent videos. I'm sure the LSB is a sound translation I just find it hard to understand why the NASB needed revised again even the Lockman Foundation had just released the 2020 version.

Thank you Pastor Matt and Brother for helping me regain access to my account. Glad to be back!

On 9/11/2021 at 6:04 AM, Brother Stafford said:

It is clear that, many times, in the Old Testament, God found it appropriate for certain people to kill other people; even after He gave the commandment, “Thou shalt not kill;” as in the commands to kill the Canaanites and the Amalekites and for the reason of committing sins worthy of death; but it was when He commanded it.

Think of a parent telling their child not to go into the street.  It’s a rule they have made for their child; except for when the parent holds the child’s hand and crosses the street with them.  The rule still applies, but the parent has the authority to apply exceptions for specific reasons.

Paul, in Romans 13:1-4 and Acts 25:10-11, seems to support the right of the state to use capital punishment appropriately.

In Luke 22:36-38, Christ tells His disciples to buy swords and, when they tell Him that they already have two of them, He says, “It is enough.”  He tells twelve disciples that two swords are enough; so, it would seem that, whatever His reason was for telling them to have swords, He didn’t seem to be telling them to rely on them, but, rather, to rely on the sword of the spirit; the Word of God.  If anything, those verses could be used to make a case against stockpiling weapons.

I believe that Matthew 26:52 pertained to the disciples defending Christ with weapons.  He says, in the very next verse, that He could ask God to send legions of angels for that, if that’s what He wanted.

By applying various other verses to the subject, I believe that Christ was telling His disciples to have weapons to defend themselves against certain kinds of violence.

I think of it like this:  If I walk into a store and a gunman is threatening to kill people, it is my duty to use deadly force, if necessary, to end the threat.

If a shooter is going through a school, and is shooting people, it is my duty to use deadly force, if necessary, to stop them.

If a gunman is holding someone at gunpoint and says that they will kill them unless I renounce my faith, if I am unarmed and unable to stop them, I would offer myself as a substitute; but if that was not accepted, then I must maintain my faith and let the gunman do what he will; but, if I also am armed, then it is my duty to end the threat.

In short, I believe that it is a Christian’s duty to save lives that are being threatened, unless unable to do so or if doing so would require him to renounce his faith.

I do not, however, see any value in boasting about such things or finding joy in them.  I find even the practice of hunting for pleasure and hobby, most distasteful.  I believe we should be grateful for being able to provide for ourselves and our families, if that’s how we do it, or for being able to defend ourselves and others, but I don’t believe we are to use them as entertainment.

Lest anyone think I am anti gun, I say these things as someone who carries concealed whenever I leave my house, and have been doing so for the past twelve years, but I pray to God that I will never have occasion to use it and, so far, I never have.  I also keep the fact that I even own a weapon to myself and only a handful of people in my life even know about it.

While I don’t believe it is sinful to display, “Come and take it,” or other 2nd amendment kitsch, I find it to be a foolish and prideful display of machismo and that it does nothing for the cause of Christ.

I am not dogmatic about any of this; this is just how I understand the scriptures.  I am always open to correction and instruction and, if I have misunderstood the Word of God, I will alter my beliefs accordingly.

*edit - David Cloud’s thoughts on the Old Testament commands to wipe out certain people are very helpful.  They can be read here: “Is the God of the Old Testament Cruel?”

*note that most, if not all, of the reasons given for God’s judgement on those nations are being committed, in one way or another, by America.

I'm all for our right to own and carry guns especially for self defense purposes.

Back when people were walking into churches and killing the worshippers for no reason and without restraint I liked the idea that we had off duty officers in the pews with concealed guns just in case.

When I started to hear that some Pastors decided to carry guns while preaching the sermon it didn't feel right to me. Just the idea of the Shepherd carrying a Glock as opposed to a "staff" felt a little hypocritical to me.

My opinion later changed after I met Pastor  "Mac". Somehow in our conversation he mentioned to me that he had his gun on him every Sunday. I don't remember my exact response but I know I inquired why he felt it was necessary for him to be armed when there were other men who brought guns too. He basically explained that the reason was that he believed it was his responsibility to not only protect the flock spiritually but physically as well. He also brought up that because of the lay out of the building and sanctuary entrance he would be the first person to see a threat and react to it. After getting to know Mac I felt completely different about Pastors arming themselves.

I'm sure many Pastors feel a responsibility to protect their congregations during church services. I was glad Mac wanted to protect us during worship, but it was a situation that occured outside of church that made me realize that my Pastors concern for his congregation went far beyond 40 minute talks and hospital visits.

There was a situation about two years ago where my brothers wife's ex-husband told him that he was going to come to their house and kill everyone Including his own children. Being that my younger brother and I have been as  close to each other as any siblings could possibly be I was going to stand with and share the threat with him without hesitation. I suggested that we have his wife and the three children go stay at a hotel and I was going to spend the night there with him Incase the ex acted on the threat. 

I called Mac later that day to explain the situation and asked him if he would please pray for our safety. He assured me that he would. To my surprise after he prayed he them immediately asked if I needed him to come over, bring his gun and insert himself in a very real and dangerous situation by staying the night to face the potential threat with us. There aren't words that even begin to describe how thankful and emotionally touched I was that my spiritual leader was willing to risk his life without hesitation out of concern of me being harmed or worse.

Despite how grateful I was for his willingness to help I in turn declined his offer. This was man who I already respected as a preacher,  a missionary, a student of the Bible, a mentor, an author, etc.. and now as protector. It's really unfortunate that non believers only get exposed to Christianity through church scandals, televangelist frauds, abuse claims, and the nice preachers who don't judge people by not confronting sin because he loves you SO much that he don't even want to hurt your feelings. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of those pastors who seem sensitive, always positive, and are so loving that they would NEVER judge anyone aren't so "loving and caring" during the week once the office hours close. Many of them probably wouldn't even come help you change  a flat tire even if it deflated right in front of their house. They will tickle your ears by saying what they think you want to hear so church becomes a place where you come to hear how great you are every week so they can get paid.

All the wrong "Christians" end up getting all the attention for all the wrong reasons and the non believers see it. Meanwhile they never hear bout the Pastor of a small church in a insignificant town. The leader who prefers you call him "Mac" instead of his religious title, and has a daughter going through a rough divorce like most imperfect normal families. He's the kind of man that just might confront your hidden sin in a sermon and you think he's personally attacking you or being too judgemental. The truth can hurt but it's still the truth and some pastors love you enough to tell it to you. 

"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

  Greater love hath no man than this, That a man lay down his life for his 

  friends".        - John 15:12,13

On 9/11/2021 at 6:04 AM, Brother Stafford said:

It is clear that, many times, in the Old Testament, God found it appropriate for certain people to kill other people; even after He gave the commandment, “Thou shalt not kill;” as in the commands to kill the Canaanites and the Amalekites and for the reason of committing sins worthy of death; but it was when He commanded it.

Think of a parent telling their child not to go into the street.  It’s a rule they have made for their child; except for when the parent holds the child’s hand and crosses the street with them.  The rule still applies, but the parent has the authority to apply exceptions for specific reasons.

Paul, in Romans 13:1-4 and Acts 25:10-11, seems to support the right of the state to use capital punishment appropriately.

In Luke 22:36-38, Christ tells His disciples to buy swords and, when they tell Him that they already have two of them, He says, “It is enough.”  He tells twelve disciples that two swords are enough; so, it would seem that, whatever His reason was for telling them to have swords, He didn’t seem to be telling them to rely on them, but, rather, to rely on the sword of the spirit; the Word of God.  If anything, those verses could be used to make a case against stockpiling weapons.

I believe that Matthew 26:52 pertained to the disciples defending Christ with weapons.  He says, in the very next verse, that He could ask God to send legions of angels for that, if that’s what He wanted.

By applying various other verses to the subject, I believe that Christ was telling His disciples to have weapons to defend themselves against certain kinds of violence.

I think of it like this:  If I walk into a store and a gunman is threatening to kill people, it is my duty to use deadly force, if necessary, to end the threat.

If a shooter is going through a school, and is shooting people, it is my duty to use deadly force, if necessary, to stop them.

If a gunman is holding someone at gunpoint and says that they will kill them unless I renounce my faith, if I am unarmed and unable to stop them, I would offer myself as a substitute; but if that was not accepted, then I must maintain my faith and let the gunman do what he will; but, if I also am armed, then it is my duty to end the threat.

In short, I believe that it is a Christian’s duty to save lives that are being threatened, unless unable to do so or if doing so would require him to renounce his faith.

I do not, however, see any value in boasting about such things or finding joy in them.  I find even the practice of hunting for pleasure and hobby, most distasteful.  I believe we should be grateful for being able to provide for ourselves and our families, if that’s how we do it, or for being able to defend ourselves and others, but I don’t believe we are to use them as entertainment.

Lest anyone think I am anti gun, I say these things as someone who carries concealed whenever I leave my house, and have been doing so for the past twelve years, but I pray to God that I will never have occasion to use it and, so far, I never have.  I also keep the fact that I even own a weapon to myself and only a handful of people in my life even know about it.

While I don’t believe it is sinful to display, “Come and take it,” or other 2nd amendment kitsch, I find it to be a foolish and prideful display of machismo and that it does nothing for the cause of Christ.

I am not dogmatic about any of this; this is just how I understand the scriptures.  I am always open to correction and instruction and, if I have misunderstood the Word of God, I will alter my beliefs accordingly.

*edit - David Cloud’s thoughts on the Old Testament commands to wipe out certain people are very helpful.  They can be read here: “Is the God of the Old Testament Cruel?”

*note that most, if not all, of the reasons given for God’s judgement on those nations are being committed, in one way or another, by America.

Sorry guys I accidentally posted the same post twice and it merged the two

3 hours ago, Totoosart said:

You yourself quoted this, i have nothing more to say on that.

Bless your heart,

Totoo

As for rebuking, that is a different subject and not related to judging people.

I can't speak for SureWord, but I believe he is saying that the Matthew 7:1 rebuke about judging others has to be interpreted in the context of the rest of the chapter. Later in Matthew 7 Jesus tells us to beware of false teachers and that we would recognize them by their "fruits" which we clearly have to use humble discernment and judgment which leads to the need to rebuke false prophets.

Jesus isn't saying that Christians can never make a judgement or turn a blind eye to false teaching or immorality. In context hes talking about the hypocritical judgement of the Scribes and Pharisees. 

But you're right we shouldn't be quick to judge but if have to do so it needs to be done out of humility and with as much understanding and compassion as possible.

37 minutes ago, Brother Stafford said:

1. I'm not a fan of intentionally using God, or His Word, for politically divisive posturing.  It appears that this woman is using God's Word as a prop for the purpose of exhibiting self righteousness and intentionally aggravating those who disagree with her.  A visual representation of the bumper sticker, "God, Guns & Country."  However, that is not what Scripture is fo

I'm with you on that. 

I remember feeling a little annoyed when Trump walked across the road from the white house (or wherever he was) and held that bible up while standing on the sidewalk. I'm not trying to bash Trump by any means but the few times I heard questions posed to him about the bible he side stepped the question by just kind of summarizing basic beliefs, and not to ,mention the biblical interpretations of his faith mentors like Paula White.

When he did that it wasn't for the Christians be ause he already had their support for the most part so it felt like he was antagonizing the leftists more than anything. I'm sure Christianity didn't get any new believers because of that and most likely pushed people further way from Jesus since it felt like a political move.

4 minutes ago, Martyr_4_FutureJoy said:

I think I'm logged in this time

Do you believe what words or promises we make "as a country" ? !  

Did God ever say in KJV to trust this country, or any country, or any government ? 

Thank you. I see what you're asking now.

And no I believe very little of what our country's leaders promise, and what their true intentions really are.

I also realize that we are supposed to be subject to our leaders unless they try to force us to believe or act unbiblical. Unfortunately I don't think our leaders care about what the Bible teaches anymore and have so many prayers to different Gods in our government buildings that they have lost all focus of who to pray to bless and be merciful to our country. 

Congressmen and women are allowed to pray to Allah, a plethora of Hindu Gods, or meditate in their office like Buddha in buildings paid for by taxpayers but I have pay to send my son to a IFB Private school because the PUBLIC schools won't allow prayer and can't figure who goes into which restrooms?

Its to the point that I don't even want to listen to our leaders while they try to lie and make excuses. To make things worse the media and news just seems like an extension of the politicians to help shape and distort whatever they want us to believe.  

It's seems like to get a hint of truth I have to read and watch media from other countries to try to decipher what is really happening in this world.

1 hour ago, Guest Thought_I_was_logged_in said:

Good,  this is a necessary realization to make some particular progress (if or when someone might have thought or been taught otherwise) in spiritual life as directed in the Bible to all the disciples of Jesus. 

Notice for good example , for instance ,  if available,  what a 3 year old raised right (if you can find one) , a little child,  thinks of politics and warfare and violence.

Hope you come back as a guest and elaborate further, because I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say or how it's relevant to what you quoted from my post.

On 8/25/2021 at 3:37 PM, PastorMatt said:

"If you ever feel useless, remember it took 20 years, trillions of dollars and 4 US Presidents to replace the Taliban with the Taliban"

Great quote that cuts to problem of the US going to war in the Middle East.

It's easy in hindsight for me to say we never should've been in Afghanistan and Iraq, but in 2001 I wanted revenge like everyone else and supported the Bush administration

All these years later I look back at what we accomplished and the lives we lost and it makes me feel uncomfortable.

As an American the issue that bothers me most is how we end up abandoning nearly all of our allies in the region while the militaries we train for years get toppled by groups like ISIS and the Taliban.

For example - The Kurds. They not only helped us defeat Sadaams army but were the ones pushing the ground assault on ISIS that pushed them all the back into Syria, and then we just left them like they had done nothing for us. The same with the Shia Muslims and militia's that helped us in the first gulf war who were later hunted down and killed by Sadaam Hussein.

We spent all these years fighting in the middle east but when Russia rushed into Crimea and when our Ukrainian allies looked to us for the protection promised for their denuclearization we were no where to be found.

I understand we shouldn't have been in Afghanistan and had to leave sometime but the way Biden pulled us out embarrasses me as an American and the cycle continues where we use people in other countries to get the result we want and then once we are finished we seem to care less about the vast majority of them.

I don't see how any country would ever believe a single word or promise we make as a country.

Yes there has always been opposition and different groups fighting for control of Afghanistan. I can remember shortly after 9/11 watching a documentary about Ahmad Shad Massoud ( who was later assassinated by the Taliban or Al Qaeda)who was the head of the Northern Alliance resistance even before we entered Afghanistan. I have repeatedly heard that Massoud  tried to warn the US about Al Qaeda attacks but no one took it seriously. His son is still leads that small army and the area that the Taliban we're never able to conquer and are still willing to fight the Taliban today.

After the mujahedeen defeated the Soviets there were Muslims from all over the world settling there with different ideologies, so there is tension like in most Islamic countries where sects are fighting for power and influence. Like Yemen as an extreme example. 

There is an interesting story related to the Taliban founder and leader Mohammed Omar that made him very popular and  even with people like Osama bin Laden  would refer to him as "Amir-ul-Momineen"  or the "commander of the faithful. Omar went to the Kirka Sharif shrine in Kandahar where under protection and locked away is the "Cloak of Muhammad" which for centuries is believed to be the one their prophet Muhammad had on during his Night Journey to the spot of the Dome of the Rock/Al Asqa Mosque in Jerusalem and then into heaven and back. Sometime in 1996 Mohammed Omar went to the shrine and was given permissions to hold it and he lifted it for all his Taliban students and local residents alike to see and from that time on the Taliban grew in popularity and Omar was seen as sort of a rightfully guided successor of prophet Muhammad. Even the current Al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri  has known to refer to Omar as the commander of the faithful.

If the Panjahir resistance (successors of the Northern Alliance) can withstand and defeat the Taliban I think Afghanistan would be a much better and respected country, but it doesn't look to me anyone can can defeat the Taliban now especially after gaining access to US military weapons and vehicles. 

I do hope that the Taliban realize that if they want any chance of being accepted as a legitimate government they are going to have to implement sharia in a more moderate way and go after the ISIS fighters who are trying to take advantage of the chaos in Kabul to do suicide attacks.

I have kept a close eye on Islamic leaders around world these last few weeks for response to the Taliban take over, and there seems to be a majority consensus that the Taliban needs put in writing how they plan to implement Sharia Law this along with reasons from Quran, Hadith, and one of the four major schools of Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence) so the world will have a better understanding of their intentions. I think MOST Islamic Scholars and Theologians don't want to see another radical group like ISIS hijacking everyone's perception of their religion.

2 hours ago, SureWord said:

Yes, the Taliban was actually an improvement over the Mujahideen who was a creation of the CIA in our proxy war against the Soviet Union. Nothing but drug Lords, rapists and pedophiles. The Taliban was burning the opium fields. IMO, that's the main reason we went in.  Apparently, it turned into a giant money laundering campaign also.

Agreed.

I also agree with your comment about how we never should've been in Afghanistan in the first place.

When the US threatened the Afghans if they did not hand over Osama Bin Laden I am not completely convinced that Mohammad Omar refused because he agreed with the 9/11 attacks. Of course once we invaded then the Taliban hit the green light on jihad against us.

I think to understand why Omar refused to cooperate with the US you have to consider the Islamic teaching on giving asylum to another Muslim when asked but in Mohammed Omar's case you also have to factor in the local Pushtun tribal traditions that are a part of the Afghan culture.

In places like Afghanistan those traditions and rules are taken very seriously and in many cases they would rather die than break an oath or promise, and I believe this is why the Taliban refused to hand bin Laden over. Well or at least part of the reason. Anyone who has seen the movie based on the true story Lone Survivor has seen a portrayal of this. When the US soldier makes it to the village and the jihadist come looking for him the villagers refused to hand him over risking their lives because their tradition compelled them to protect him regardless of personal feelings.

In the end we invaded and went to war with an entire country to find one person who was living in PAKISTAN when we found him.