Disciple.Luke

I typically don't respond to people on here who join just to argue or insult the Biblical knowledge of the forum members. There are moderaters and wiser brethren who take the lead in these cases, but for you I'm making an exception. I didn't grow up in a religious family or attend seminary so I have spent the last twenty years testing specific doctrine and theology against the Bible itself. End Times Eschatology is probably my LEAST favorite topic to explore but I've educated myself on nonetheless. So when I read your first few posts in here I couldn't help but to find the "proof texts" you used to validate your beliefs as curious. In twenty years I have NEVER seen anyone use the specific bible references you used to make an eschatological argument, so it struck me as odd that someone who has been a believer for 40 years (as you have described yourself) would come to interpret the those scriptures the way you are. Your specific wording and emphasis was suspicious to me. Along with that I noticed your confrontational support of Steven Anderson in another thread and decided to see if there was a connection. I visited the Faithword Baptist Church website, clicked on preaching section and looked for the lastest sermon dealing with the rapture or end times. I clicked on the sermon dated 1/3/22 called Pre Trib Arguments Debunked. I was hoping there was a PDF form but there was none so I had sit for nearly an hour listening to this nonsense, but I'm glad I did. You can imagine my amazement when I heard Pastor Anderson using the EXACT same verses to come to the EXACT same understanding of the rapture that supposedly took you "4 or 5 years" of studying to understand. The forum members can listen themselves and come to their own conclusions, but unless you ARE Steven Anderson yourself then you've lost all credibility in my mind. You came on here challenging the beliefs of the members whose beliefs and opinions I respect even if we don't always agree with one another and accused them of LISTENING to man's teachings instead of the Bible. Now it appears nearly every post you've made on here reflect the beliefs preached from the pulpit of Faithful Word Baptist Church. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XQkTwpE6mNw

It is independent in the sense that the entire production has been funded by individual donors as opposed to some Hollywood film company fronting the money. They say it has been the largest film of it's kind paid for in that way. The director is Dallas Jenkins. The son of Jerry Jenkins who wrote the Left Behind with Tim LaHaye. I just recently watched the first two seasons. At least thus far I haven't felt like the character portrayed is necessarily dishonoring our Lord, but the film does take some liberties adding context to the scripture. Like mentioned earlier in the thread they very purposely made Mary Magdalene a central part of the film from the first episode. I get the feeling that they are purposely making her almost the woman equivalent of Peter among the disciples and followers. The Mary Magdalene character becomes concerning when you consider that in the end credits they put a HUGE thank you to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) for providing the costumes and scene props. While the director may not be purposely adding LDS beliefs about Jesus to the story it does cause me some pause knowing that more than a few LDS leaders have claimed Mary Magdalene was a plural wife of Jesus. I suppose what gives me the most concern is that thousands of people who aren't willing to spend anytime reading their own Bibles will watch it and assume the show is equivalent to what the inspired texts says.

Me too. I did not grow up in a religious family. God and the Bible were just never discussed even though we had one on the shelf. I found Jesus outside of church so I had no idea how or what to believe. Unfortunately I believed that the people on TBN were a reflection of true Christianity, and because of that my first few years were frustrated from listening to them. It wasn't until I started searching by attending different churches in person before I started to pick up on basic beliefs.

Yeah the Quran also mentions Jesus forming a bird out clay and making it come to life by blowing in it's nostril. Muhammad seems to be getting his information from the Gnostic Gospel of Mary. I was watching a video just the other day of a Rabbi and his family converting to Islam. When the Imam gave them the microphone to say the profession of faith he also had them bear witness in Arabic acknowledging the prophethood of Jesus (Isa). I assume the Imam purposely had them acknowledge Jesus since as Jews they had rejected him altogether.

I watch a lot of videos that have to do with Islam, and over the last month one of the main advertisements before the video is asking for donations to turn a former Florida church into a Masjid. I believe there are many misconceptions about Islam here in America but those advertisements truly disturb me as it feels like they enjoy the idea of a church building becoming a place of worship for Muslims. In Israel the King of Jordan (Who is a direct descendant of Muhammad and part of the Hashemite dynasty that ruled Arabia until Great British helped the House of Saud take over the country) is the custodian of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and the Greek Orthodox seem to have no problem with it. The Jordanian Kings have never tried to take over the but in fact are supportive and even paid for renovation years ago when it caught on fire. The relationship between Christians and Muslims varies depending on what school of thought ( or jurisprudence) the local Muslims follow. On one hand you have the hardline "Saudi fundamentalists or Salafis" who believe in conquering and converting. Then you have men like Ayatollah Sistani in Iraq who is extremely powerful but desires peace and is well known for his thoughtful approach to Islam and it's relationship with other religions. It bothers me to see Muslims turning churches into places of worship, but what bothers me more is the loss of faith in Christ here in America resulting in these building being available for sell.

I'm not in disagreement with you. In both posts I stated that their worship and beliefs are unbiblical. My opinion is only in reference to the right to worship in the United States of America.

"My goal is to reach the end satisfied and at peace with my loved ones and my conscience". That sentence alone sounds like someone who is trying to earn a better afterlife through good works by loving his family and having a good "conscience". He's trying to obtain what only can Christ can give us.

I believe they have every right to worship how they believe - under the conditions that the act is done by consenting adults who can mentally comprehend the danger, and they aren't teaching that Salvation is jeopardized by not participating. This whole belief system is a result misinterpreting scripture. This movement started out of the false beliefs of Pentecostalism and just became more distorted. I have heard several people interviewed from these churches and the common belief seems to be how they follow the "ENTIRE" bible and don't pick and choose what to believe. When they make that statement it is direct reference to Pentecostals who speak in tongues and the other "Signs" but avoid the serpent handling comment in Mark. Error begets error and in this case the Pentecostal - Holiness bible interpretation has evolved into a deadly misunderstanding of the bible. My criticism to these churches would be to caution them about holding a belief based on a single verse and not reading it in context of the entire Bible like they insist they are doing.

I have a question that I'd love to hear some of you opine on. So the snake handling part of their services have been made illegal in every state except West Virginia I believe. From the snake handlers view they believe they have right to practice their religion as they are fit, and even where it's illegal they do it anyway believing it's better to obey "God rather than men". On the flip side the authorities make the argument that it's not about religious rights but as a crime to have poisonous snakes without the proper permits or security standards of how they are caged. I don't believe snake handling in church is biblical, but I do understand how someone could read verses in Mark and convince themselves they are obeying God. If a Jehovah's witness has a protected religious right to refuse blood transfusions for themselves and children in life threatening situations then I don't see how that is much different than grown adults handling snakes at their own risk? Is snake handling religious freedom or a crime?

I've never been to a snake handling church but have spent a lot of time watching YouTube videos and some reading about them. I noticed that nearly all of them fall into the Oneness Pentecostal theological group, so it doesn't surprise me that one erroneous doctrine can give way to insane practices like this. I understand where they justify snake handling and drinking poison from Mark 16 but I've always wondered what verse they use to support those bottle fire torches believing God has promised to protect them from it?

I haven't heard of any churches that use the HCSB. Isn't the Holman publishers and translators from the Southern Baptist Convention? I was just looking at the Holman KJV Study Bible and am considering buying it. If anyone on here has the Holman Study Bible I'd love to hear what you think about or recommend it?

Yeah I for sure feel like 1977 edition was good how it was, and would rather read it over 95 any day. I didn't care for the 1995 edition. I respected it's accuracy but I found it rather difficult to hold my attention when reading it. I would reference it often when I wanted see how a verse read word for word but it wasn't my go to other than the KJV.

He accomplished much for the. Lord here in Anderson. After Leigh passed his son Josh stepped into the pulpit and brought Pastor Doug back to Grace. I knew Josh much more than his father as he and I were the same age. Unfortunately God called Josh back to Greenville, SC where he went to college to Pastor a much larger congregation there (Morningside Baptist). I believe Josh's brother Nathan is teacher at Bob Jones as well so that's where most of the Crockett's live now. Josh weathered the storm and made sure Grace was back on its feet before he left for his new calling. Bringing Pastor Doug back was a huge help while the church was looking for a new Pastor. I know Pastor Leigh really helped Indiana Christian Academy grow during his Pastorate which as you know has been a blessing to me and my son. Did you know Pastor Don Camp? That was way before my time but I still hear his name and family brought up even after all the years that have passed since he was at Grace.

I realize this thread was started several years ago, and normally would not revive such an ancient topic but I actually know something about what has been said. I live in Anderson, IN where the Church of God is headquartered and not far from the small town Bill and Gloria live in. Many years ago as a new believer the first several churches I attended were Church of God (Anderson) and would occasionally see the Gaithers in passing before or after service. I personally do not listen to or enjoy the Gaithers music. I just don't care for the style or like the music of the other singers they normally perform with. One reason is partly because of the reason mentioned in the initial post about how they sing songs from almost every denomination even if the message of the song itself contradicts the doctrinal lyrics of the next song performed. I personally take issue with that but that is just my own personal belief. THe reason the Gaithers music can be described as "non denominational" is directly related to the churches they attend. Historically the Church of God started out as a very strict "Holiness" church who was Wesleyan-Arminian theologically and believed their movement was fore told by prophecy and scripture. Their message was for other Christians to "come out" of denominationalism and join them as the true "Church". By the time I started attending that initial identity was an ancient belief. The movement had been so strict and legalistic in the past that the new generation of Pastors were so scared of past criticism to the point that they shyed away from from any definitive doctrine or belief that made any exclusive claims of their denomination. This view that their original beliefs were something to be ashamed of quickly led it to see itself as "non denominational" and refused to say anything that may be controversial or offend any other groups labeled as Christian made it a church with no clear definition and an increasingly progressive attitude toward sin or even the mention of it. I watched from the pews as addressing sin became less and less common...to the point that you could attend five weeks straight without an altar call. It's hard to sell Jesus if the sin he died for isn't preached on Sundays. To the churches credit it did put it's foot down when it came to the definition of marriage being man and a women, but since the congregations are free to believe what they want the pulse of the church was moving away from traditional marriage despite the leaders stance. In many ways this shift in identity could be seen in the Gaithers themselves. The hymn books were becoming more of a decoration than a way to sing a long with the music of Sunday morning. Before long every Church of God I attended had turned worship into a modern rock concert. I believe this was partly because children of influential members in Anderson (like Sandi Patty for instance) preferred their own style of music and quickly spread across the whole movement. Once the music changed the doctrinal domino's began to fall and it seemed nothing was off limits to God anymore...including homosexuality. While the church wasn't promoting unbiblical sexuality they weren't discouraging it either by ignoring the subject. Like many other holiness churches at the time they were redefining what it meant to be "holy". Instead of trying to live out a life of personal and,physical holiness they instead insisted holiness was "loving all people like Jesus without being judgemental". It wasn't long before "loving" was synonymous with not offending anyone. Today most of the churches thriving here because the Sunday menu consists of rock music and having your ears and ego tickled with feel good seminar based on one or two isolated verses out of The Message or New Living Translation. Like I already mentioned...the Gaither beliefs are a mirror of the Church of God (Anderson, IN). I could give several examples of the local Church of God "elite" ignoring blatant sinful behavior while refusing to confront the fellow believer with scripture choosing to just "love" them for who they are. I will refrain from specifics as my intention is to add some commentary to the original post...not to gossip.

I believe God can and does still heal when that's his will, but sickness is an unfortunate consequence of a sinful world. As Christians we are supposed to be spiritually not of the world but we are still physically in a fallen world where sickness and death comes for everyone. I would agree with the others who point out that the healings during Jesus earthly ministry were to validate the claims and identity of Jesus of Nazareth. If healings were continually occurring even among believers everyone with enough faith would be virtually immortal and in a way forcing God to be subordinate to human will instead of his own sovereign plan. The former Pastor here was diagnosed with brain cancer that was already at a stage that they had to do surgery or he would've died very quickly. While Pastor Leigh Crockett was in the hospital preparing for surgery his IFB congregation were on their knees desperately praying for God to intercede. When the doctors did the next brain scan they were shocked to see that the cancer had changed form into a non life threatening stage. God had interceded and prolonged Pastor Crockett's time on earth. This was not some Benny Hinn or TBN emotional fake healing...this case was documented into the official health books as something that had never been seen or recorded before. This Pastor from a small Indiana town was interviewed on national news agencies along with the doctors who verified it was nothing short of a miracle. If you Google the his name there may still be footage of it somewhere on YouTube. I knew Pastor Crockett and eventually became a member of Grace Baptist so I know first hand that the story was not only real but a modern miracle. About seven years later the cancer returned and eventually the beloved Pastor lost his battle with cancer and went home to be with the Lord. I Know for sure that God can and will heal people today, but it only happens when it's in his will to do so. We all hope for good health and miraculous healing for people we love, but Jesus didn't welcome the death of his body for us to avoid death in this life. All I know is that God in his wisdom sacrificed his son to reverse sins curse so that our death here isn't the end but is just a step into eternity for the believer.

Yes I was very disappointed with the 2020 revision. I bought it and sent it back for a refund a few days later. I like the 1977 NASB even more than the 1995 version.

Thank you brother. I just haven't logged in for quite awhile. I've been so distracted with other things lately I just haven't had much time. I had an email earlier telling me there was a new post in this thread so I logged in to see how the conversation was going. I have a lot of unread content to get caught up on.

Agreed. Justin Peters does a fantastic job as well by making videos like this. Not only is biblically sound but he is extremely witty which makes his presentations even more enjoyable. I only wish Justin would use the KJV instead of the MacArthurs Legacy Standard Bible in his recent videos. I'm sure the LSB is a sound translation I just find it hard to understand why the NASB needed revised again even the Lockman Foundation had just released the 2020 version.

Thank you Pastor Matt and Brother for helping me regain access to my account. Glad to be back!

I'm all for our right to own and carry guns especially for self defense purposes. Back when people were walking into churches and killing the worshippers for no reason and without restraint I liked the idea that we had off duty officers in the pews with concealed guns just in case. When I started to hear that some Pastors decided to carry guns while preaching the sermon it didn't feel right to me. Just the idea of the Shepherd carrying a Glock as opposed to a "staff" felt a little hypocritical to me. My opinion later changed after I met Pastor "Mac". Somehow in our conversation he mentioned to me that he had his gun on him every Sunday. I don't remember my exact response but I know I inquired why he felt it was necessary for him to be armed when there were other men who brought guns too. He basically explained that the reason was that he believed it was his responsibility to not only protect the flock spiritually but physically as well. He also brought up that because of the lay out of the building and sanctuary entrance he would be the first person to see a threat and react to it. After getting to know Mac I felt completely different about Pastors arming themselves. I'm sure many Pastors feel a responsibility to protect their congregations during church services. I was glad Mac wanted to protect us during worship, but it was a situation that occured outside of church that made me realize that my Pastors concern for his congregation went far beyond 40 minute talks and hospital visits. There was a situation about two years ago where my brothers wife's ex-husband told him that he was going to come to their house and kill everyone Including his own children. Being that my younger brother and I have been as close to each other as any siblings could possibly be I was going to stand with and share the threat with him without hesitation. I suggested that we have his wife and the three children go stay at a hotel and I was going to spend the night there with him Incase the ex acted on the threat. I called Mac later that day to explain the situation and asked him if he would please pray for our safety. He assured me that he would. To my surprise after he prayed he them immediately asked if I needed him to come over, bring his gun and insert himself in a very real and dangerous situation by staying the night to face the potential threat with us. There aren't words that even begin to describe how thankful and emotionally touched I was that my spiritual leader was willing to risk his life without hesitation out of concern of me being harmed or worse. Despite how grateful I was for his willingness to help I in turn declined his offer. This was man who I already respected as a preacher, a missionary, a student of the Bible, a mentor, an author, etc.. and now as protector. It's really unfortunate that non believers only get exposed to Christianity through church scandals, televangelist frauds, abuse claims, and the nice preachers who don't judge people by not confronting sin because he loves you SO much that he don't even want to hurt your feelings. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of those pastors who seem sensitive, always positive, and are so loving that they would NEVER judge anyone aren't so "loving and caring" during the week once the office hours close. Many of them probably wouldn't even come help you change a flat tire even if it deflated right in front of their house. They will tickle your ears by saying what they think you want to hear so church becomes a place where you come to hear how great you are every week so they can get paid. All the wrong "Christians" end up getting all the attention for all the wrong reasons and the non believers see it. Meanwhile they never hear bout the Pastor of a small church in a insignificant town. The leader who prefers you call him "Mac" instead of his religious title, and has a daughter going through a rough divorce like most imperfect normal families. He's the kind of man that just might confront your hidden sin in a sermon and you think he's personally attacking you or being too judgemental. The truth can hurt but it's still the truth and some pastors love you enough to tell it to you. "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, That a man lay down his life for his friends". - John 15:12,13 Sorry guys I accidentally posted the same post twice and it merged the two

I can't speak for SureWord, but I believe he is saying that the Matthew 7:1 rebuke about judging others has to be interpreted in the context of the rest of the chapter. Later in Matthew 7 Jesus tells us to beware of false teachers and that we would recognize them by their "fruits" which we clearly have to use humble discernment and judgment which leads to the need to rebuke false prophets. Jesus isn't saying that Christians can never make a judgement or turn a blind eye to false teaching or immorality. In context hes talking about the hypocritical judgement of the Scribes and Pharisees. But you're right we shouldn't be quick to judge but if have to do so it needs to be done out of humility and with as much understanding and compassion as possible.

I'm with you on that. I remember feeling a little annoyed when Trump walked across the road from the white house (or wherever he was) and held that bible up while standing on the sidewalk. I'm not trying to bash Trump by any means but the few times I heard questions posed to him about the bible he side stepped the question by just kind of summarizing basic beliefs, and not to ,mention the biblical interpretations of his faith mentors like Paula White. When he did that it wasn't for the Christians be ause he already had their support for the most part so it felt like he was antagonizing the leftists more than anything. I'm sure Christianity didn't get any new believers because of that and most likely pushed people further way from Jesus since it felt like a political move.

Thank you. I see what you're asking now. And no I believe very little of what our country's leaders promise, and what their true intentions really are. I also realize that we are supposed to be subject to our leaders unless they try to force us to believe or act unbiblical. Unfortunately I don't think our leaders care about what the Bible teaches anymore and have so many prayers to different Gods in our government buildings that they have lost all focus of who to pray to bless and be merciful to our country. Congressmen and women are allowed to pray to Allah, a plethora of Hindu Gods, or meditate in their office like Buddha in buildings paid for by taxpayers but I have pay to send my son to a IFB Private school because the PUBLIC schools won't allow prayer and can't figure who goes into which restrooms? Its to the point that I don't even want to listen to our leaders while they try to lie and make excuses. To make things worse the media and news just seems like an extension of the politicians to help shape and distort whatever they want us to believe. It's seems like to get a hint of truth I have to read and watch media from other countries to try to decipher what is really happening in this world.

Hope you come back as a guest and elaborate further, because I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say or how it's relevant to what you quoted from my post.

Great quote that cuts to problem of the US going to war in the Middle East. It's easy in hindsight for me to say we never should've been in Afghanistan and Iraq, but in 2001 I wanted revenge like everyone else and supported the Bush administration All these years later I look back at what we accomplished and the lives we lost and it makes me feel uncomfortable. As an American the issue that bothers me most is how we end up abandoning nearly all of our allies in the region while the militaries we train for years get toppled by groups like ISIS and the Taliban. For example - The Kurds. They not only helped us defeat Sadaams army but were the ones pushing the ground assault on ISIS that pushed them all the back into Syria, and then we just left them like they had done nothing for us. The same with the Shia Muslims and militia's that helped us in the first gulf war who were later hunted down and killed by Sadaam Hussein. We spent all these years fighting in the middle east but when Russia rushed into Crimea and when our Ukrainian allies looked to us for the protection promised for their denuclearization we were no where to be found. I understand we shouldn't have been in Afghanistan and had to leave sometime but the way Biden pulled us out embarrasses me as an American and the cycle continues where we use people in other countries to get the result we want and then once we are finished we seem to care less about the vast majority of them. I don't see how any country would ever believe a single word or promise we make as a country.