Disciple.Luke

When I was searching different religions/denominations attempting to find where the truth was to be found...I developed unusual relationship with an older man who served as the local LDS Bishop for close to seven years. This man was the age my grandfather would've been and only worked a few hours each morning at Menards so his schedule wasn't super busy. We developed a very close relationship and he taught me many lessons about serving and leading others and how to be expert at family history research. Over several years he had become like a father figure to me so when he passed away it deeply effected me. I remember prior to his funeral I was having feelings about and questioning his salvation and where he was now after stepping into eternity. When I attended his funeral he was dressed in his temple attire...which consisted of white shirt, pants, and tie. He also had a green robe around his waist with what appeared to be fig leaves in a pattern and a ridiculous white hat similar to what a baker or chef would wear. Seeing him in those clothes made me realize that this man had spent a lifetime trying to work his way to heaven with ritual and works and no matter how much it pained me I realized he passed without knowing Jesus or his true salvation. I still miss him to this day but I came to understand that God has made a way for salvation and despite my feelings only those who enter that narrow gate find forgiveness in death.

Yes thats the clip from about 16 minutes into the original video you posted. I guess the first time I watched it the way he used "conviction" just didn't click in my mind because he had just said something about Eugene Petersons Message "bible" right before that and I assumed was gonna keep rambling on different translations. But I for sure agree with girl who originally posted it on Twitter when she described it as "scorning" the KJV rather than decision for his kids.

To be honest I just had to go back and watch the last couple minutes to see what you were referring to. I prematurely cut the video off right towards the end after he described his thoughts about other translations and which one he chose, so I stopped right before his story about the visiting Pastor using the KJV. I completely agree with you that there is a huge difference between him "preferring" to use a different translation and him having "convictions" against using it all. Im just speculating but I had the impression that there is more context of how he formed those convictions against the KJV bible than just the reasons in the video.

Pastor Matt - I watched the video but I've never heard of this Pastor before. Is he considered IFB? While listening to him I specifically looking for his reasoning because like you said he has every right to change it in his congregation. I agree with you that his reasoning behind it doesn't make sense. My son attended an IFB school that used some Abeka curriculum and the KJV I don't personally recall having any issues with my son not being understand the KJV references. IF the KJV is so difficult for kids to understand now Im surprised they haven't had to make a revision of the Charlie Brown Christmas Special using another version of when he quotes Luke 2. I never read any Bible as a kid but Charlie Brown's quote about what Christmas was really about wasn't difficult to understand. I have a couple work books I collected over the years when I was going to a Church of God and attend a Sunday school class. In those workbooks when scripture was used it was always the NIV/KJV side by side. The NIV was the the first Bible I owned and became familiar with but I remember feeling like I understood the KJV more clearly than the NIV. So I disagree with him when he implies he had to change translations to save the next generation in pews understanding of the Bible. He apparently attended a church that was KJV only to the point where he or his kids felt like they were in "trouble" for using another translation. I have not experienced that so it's hard to relate with that point as a reason for his change. I've attended KJV IFB churches where ONLY the KJV was used from the pulpit or in Sunday school material but it was hardly a sin or something negative to reference another decent translation.

I've visited a lot of churches that are similar to what you're explaining. I definitely sympathize about being conflicted with the leadership choices. This may be kind of off topic but I've never actually been to SBC congregation. There are only two that I know of here. One is on the other side of town in a neighborhood I've never even driven through. The other isn't far but I checked out their website and I noticed that the ENTIRE staff down to the secretary all had the same last name or related in some way. While that may not be anything negative for me it makes me a little uncomfortable to think of a single family making all the decisions for the congregation. What I really wanted to ask you about the CSB and if it is common for SBC Pastors to use it? I will check the CSB along with other translations when I'm doing study and just want to see how certain verses are worded differently, but I don't use it regularly. I haven't heard much negative about it as far as the overall translation, but the HCSB/CSB was translation and printed by people associated with the SBC right? That's what I read on Wikipedia but just wanted to verify it. I felt like HCSB was a decent project and was surprised that they decided to revise it so quickly to the CSB. I did notice that it has good reviews by Calvinist like Alistair Begg but is also praised by Tony Evans who is more "Free Grace" oriented from Dallas Theological Seminary so it appears it's a balanced translation. So I guess I'm just wondering if the CSB is popular among the SBC if it is in fact true that it's one their translation projects?

When I first started learn about Jehovah's witnesses beliefs my initial thinking was that if I could clear up the who goes to heaven issue then they would see the truth. It took me a few years to realize that the topic of "heaven" was a useless subject in one on one evangelism. If you read any of the current watchtower publications from the last twenty years you'll notice that when they are referring to the nature of Jesus now, angels, demons, and the 144,000 that go to heaven are described as "spirit creatures". So when the anointed die they become some sort of invisible immortal "spirit creature" who apparently will be "working" while in heaven as co rulers with Jesus. it took awhile but I eventually realized that MOST JWs DONT want to became some "creature" and prefer the idea of living on a paradise earth with all their resurrected family, friends and loved ones.

Yes...it doesn't make sense. Drink all you want....but if your child needs a blood transfusion to live then he has to die or "Jehovah" won't bring him back during the resurrection. They will tell you to sacrifice your child's life for Jehovah (The Governing Body) but at least you have whiskey to try drown their memories.

I think there is some truth to that. I don't believe that is the case with the majority of rank and file witnesses, but further up the line the rules seem to be different. I follow a lot of ex jws on YouTube and on online blogs, and the consensus seems to be that morality at "headquarters" is completely different than what is taught. I have heard many ex bethalites who said that while living and working at the headquarters it is very much a party culture. Not so much with things like sexual immorality but there definitely seems an excess of alcohol use. After the founder Charles T. Russell passed...Judge Joseph Rutherford took control and by all historical accounts it is generally believed he was an alcoholic.. so I definitely believe alcoholism is rampant in the JWs Most JWs live modest lives and are so committed to obeying the organization they don't have little time or money to over indulge. For most of the JWs existence the Governing Body and WT President's or sort of shadowy figures. The average JWs probably knew most of their leaders by name but their faces were rarely seen unless it was at a huge convention. That all changed recently with the creation of JW.org. Now they've created their own "news" site with publications and even entertainment. The current GB members seem to like to be seen and now every jw can place a face with a name Thier arrogance is on full display to anyone who is looking. Those supposedly humble "faithful and discreet slaves" make videos with their gold pinky rings, presidential Rolex watches, expensive suits...and live like billionaires from hard working jw donations. I've heard that there is an unspoken rule for witnesses that work at headquarters that if they see one of GB members you aren't supposed to speak with them The kings apparently have no time to mingle with the laborers. I can't figure out if the JW leaders actually believe what they teach or if it's just an elaborate scam so a select few elite men can live lives of wealth and leisure under the guise of "religion"?

I knew a JW whose wife was a Baptist. I couldn't really understand how their marriage had lasted. He wasn't a pleasant person to begin with and on top of that he was a very strict elder. I felt like he took his position as an Elder to be an "enforcer" around the congregation. I studied with him many years ago but I remember that his wife was ill at the time. I asked him one time how they avoided heated theological disagreements and he said that when they read the bible together they ONLY read the words of Jesus. HIs answer seemed odd to me which is probably why I remember it after all these years. There is no way for me to know for sure but I always assumed the marriage wasn't a very happy one It's been my experience that MOST JWs are married to inactive members or agnostic types that don't put up a fight over religion preference. He's the only one I know personally that married someone with a faith like a Baptist.

Glad to hear he changed his mind. Just out of curiosity did explain why he reversed his decision? I couldn't really think of any appropriate reason to have any form of visual entertainment in a church building. Maybe recorded testimonies on the monitors before baptisms but certainly not for just entertainment. I personally would prefer to not even use musical instruments as I enjoy hearing Acapella voices of congregation praising God. I don't have anything against appropriate instruments.. Acapella is just my preference. But I would definitely be opposed to theatrical entertainment with the exception of the children's Christmas programs and things like that

At this time if I were having discussions with JWs I would be trying to corner them about why one of their Governing Body members was removed from his position. This type of change isn't common with the Watchtower Org . Governing Body Members "the faithful and discreet slave" typically keep the position until their deaths. The Watchtower Society isn't saying much about why this happened but I think at least one of the reasons had to do with a YouTube video that came out s couple years ago. Governing Body member Anthony Morris III was recognized when he traveled several miles from the JW Headquarters location to purchase alcohol at a liquor store Despite avoiding local liquor stores someone still recognized him and began recording him with his phone and even sparked some conversation with him about different whiskeys. What made this a big deal when the video was uploaded to YouTube was the large amount of alcohol he was buying a ong with how expensive the brand was. While I'm not an expert on whiskey and how much price difference is between them - others who seen the video calculated he was spending several hundreds of dollars. Since the JW leaders supposedly take a vow of "poverty" and simplicity and have no other employment I'm sure some JWs were angry to see so much money wasted considering how many local kingdom halls were being shut down and sold and the constant begging for donations even after selling all their Brooklyn properties for billions of dollars. I'm not sure if the "Bottlegate" video is why he was removed but I'm sure it didn't help. Officially it doesn't appear that the leadership wants to provide many details for this change but with all the sexual abuse lawsuits they are drowning in his removal could be the Organization trying to get ahead of some coming legal issue. If you could get a JW to watch the "Bottlegate" YouTube clip there isn't anyway for them to justify the amount of spending by one of their "anointed" . My guess is Jesus would be flipping money tables over at Watchtower headquarters calling them thieves instead of making them "co rulers" in heaven with him.

What other kind of other benefits do you have in mind? At least the ones you consider problematic.

The local IFB church pays the Pastor well. When he first came to take his role they gave him a car to drive back and forth with. The vehicle was owned by the church and was passed fron pastor to pastor. Pastors beed to be paid as they are extremely busy and doing the Lord's work never slows down. I would guess the Secretary and Associate Pastor would both get paid but all the other ones you named are mostly what I would consider as "volunteer" callings. Many of the members work in the K-12 school that is a ministry of the church. So for many they might not have paid positions in the Church, but they are on staff as teachers and leaders and are paid and overseen by the church leadership.

Ours is "Good News Of Great Joy" - "Our plan to make disciple-makers and disciples" Obviously it focused on evangelism.

If that's true that he said the LDS faith and Jesus is the same - then he is stepping out of line with what is biblical. If he is a true bible believing Christian there is no scripture that can validate his belief. The LDS acceptance of the movie is very believable. Unlike JWs - LDS have no problem with things like listening to modern evangelical music. To their ears the music is about their "Jesus" too so I have no doubt they approve of The Chosen. Jenkins seems to be using representatives from the Messianic Jews and the Catholic church as advisors to the show. Which is deeply troubling for me and so I definitely agree it's becoming an ecumenical endeavor. I'm just not certain how much the LDS influence is when it comes to the theological issue. Even the line " I am the Law of Moses" that everyone believed to be from the Book of Mormon isn't. The full verse of that BoM quote is - "Behold, I am the law, and the light. Look unto me, and endure to the end, and ye shall live; for unto him that endureth to the end will I give eternal life." - 3 Nephi 15:9 All I know for sure is that because of COVID they couldn't film in Israel so they used the Utah desert areas instead. Along with that the LDS allowed them to use costumes and scene sets that they had recently built for a Book Of Mormon movie.

Brother Jim - In my posts I didn’t mean to imply that Asbury Theological Seminary was a Church of God (Anderson) affiliated school although some of their Pastors do go there for furthering theological studies. I apologize if I started the confusion by quoting a church of God pastors experience at the revival. Im not completely sure which denomination Asbury is connected to but it is historically Methodist. I know of Free Methodists, Nazarenes, Wesleyans, etc.. who attend there as well. Most of these groups have slightly different beliefs than the church of God. Many of the other denominations that are affiliated with Asbury I would consider to be of “conservative holiness movement”. The Church of God today would have much more in common than the United Methodist than the other I mentioned. I looked at the Asbury website and I did see several staff members who were from the United Methodist Church. That is somewhat surprising to me because I have always heard of it being a more conservative seminary. The main seminar for the Church of God is Anderson University but I know several Pastors who went to Wesley Theological Seminary and Asbury to pursue doctorates.

I agree with everyone that something feels "off" to me about the war. I think back to prior to the war about things like then President Trump talking about how much corruption there was in the Ukrainian government. While I don't believe everything out of Trump's mouth I do find credibility with people who don't have a "filter" or don't bite their tongue in fear of what others think. There was also a documentary I watched on YouTube a year or two before the war about Neo Nazis causing problems in the Donbass region. But when Putin talked about liberating that area from Nazis the American media and politicians claimed it was all a lie. It also bothers me when I see our allies like Israel refusing to take sides even though Russia is becoming so friendly with Iran. Even the Nordstream pipeline explosion seemed very deliberate in an effort to MAKE sure Germany stayed engaged in the NATO coalition against Russia. I don't know what the truth is but I know we aren't getting it from our government officials and media. Biden doesn't even know what planet he's on half the time so I don't see how he's mentally healthy enough to be making decisions on a war that is effecting half the globe in some way

Thank you Brother but I certainly realize the validity of your concern. Being from Anderson the Church of God was where I initially found my attending. As I became more familiar with the Bible I began to see real issues with what nearly every church of God Pastor focused their preaching on. I eventually got to the point where I no longer felt that what the church of God was teaching was biblical and I haven't attended one for many years although I do occasionally look at their websites and watch some sermons on YouTube to just get a feel of where they are headed Theologically. Having said I completely agree with your assessment of their overall teachings. I refuse to even listen to music like the Gaithers because of their connection with Church of God.

Brother Jim - When I was thinking about how to describe my Pastor friend I was very hesitant about how it could come across. I've spent a lot of time speaking with him and he is very different than MOST Church of God Pastors. While most are becoming more progressive this one isn't. In his congregation - sin isn't ignored, hymns are preferred over "concert" entertainment worship, and there is always a call for salvation. Since I live in Anderson where it is headquarters are I know plenty of "church of God" members and Pastors and in my opinion this specific one stands out to me in a denomination that is spiraling with progressive beliefs. Since Asbury is a Wesleyan Holiness oriented seminary I don't know of any IFB who have attended. It wasn't my intention to affirm the beliefs of the Church of God as the truth. My intention was to share the opinion of someone who was actually there in response to Pastor Matt's question. I apologize if I offended anyone..that's wasn't my intention.

Pastor Matt - A local Pastor and friend of mine in the Church of God (Anderson) recently posted what he observed at the Asbury revival. These are his thoughts...not mine but I know him well enough to know he is knowledgeable and discerning when it comes to the faith. I will leave his name out but he posted this publicly on Facebook. " After attending this week on Tuesday and Wednesday what has been labeled the revival at Asbury, I have experienced the move of God first hand. The total time I spent inside the chapel was roughly 9-10 hours. I saw many dynamics during this time, all of which I am not attempting to divulge in this post. My feeling in the chapel: I felt energized most of the time. The crowd was full of praise and worship and the energy was contagious. There was much excitement, but also plenty of time for calm, deep praising toward God. Even when the praise was calm, the entire room was full of energy. Better yet, there was synergy in the room: people were of one heart and one mind in the chapel. Overall, the feeling I felt in there was not “chasing” a move of God. I experienced the same feeling that I have when I worship with mostly any group of believers. However, this was by no means stale. With any event that includes such a massive amount of people, as there was a long line for entry outside, there is “messiness.” Some people are there for entertainment, some to see what the excitement is all about, so to be included in a historic event, and some who want to experience God in a deeper way. I assume this list (which is not exclusive) can also be a mixture for motive and is not limited to only one. I saw many at the alter. Many were praying and being prayed for. I saw people who appeared to be repentant, and time will tell if they walk out repentance and turn their hearts to the Lord. Much like the parable of the sower, there are some who the devil will snatch what was planted right away. Some seeds will be choked by the worries of the world. Some seeds will fall away due to trouble and persecution. But some seed will bear fruit. Know this, seeds are being planted. Seeds are being watered. This is a move of God and will result in changed lives. Some will be radically transformed through this event, through the Holy Spirit. Repentance is being preached, but there is mostly praise, worship, vulnerability. I also saw radical generosity. Overall: I wanted to see more testimony, more gospel preaching, more encouragement and exhortation. I wanted to see more people let in and less control. Some people who took control of the event were managing it in a way that actually turned away some when there was room for them. This is sad news. I wanted to see more freedom and less control for this type of move of God. However, God is moving in the hearts of many here. Movements of God are not limited to my perspective and approach. There’s room for God to move here."

I respect your opinion brother. As with everyone on here who have been active for a long time I appreciate your knowledge and posts even if I don't completely agree with every post. I make an effort to think through anything I post in an effort to avoid offending or being disrespectful even when I disagree. So if I have ever offend or have offended anyone on here...I sincerely apologize. As for this topic - I trust your evaluation of the The Last Temptation movie to be accurate. I was still very young when that movie came out and other than knowing of the movie I don't have an opinion on it one way or the other. I personally believe that anytime there is some biblical truth in film or book there is a potential for someone to be influenced to look deeper for the truth. From my experience very few new Christians have even read 1/3 of the New Testament let alone the entirety of Scripture. It took me years of studying to get an understanding of the theological context of Gods plan. My personal journey began with conversations with a Muslim. Even though he was attempting to convert to a false religion his attempt set me out on a search to find who God was and what "religion" truly reflected his will. I believe that one of the reasons the LDS Church gains so many converts is because people pick up on Biblical truth that Joseph Smith stole and plagiarized in the Book of Mormon. I am aware of many LDS, JWs, and Muslims who eventually looked deeper into the true Jesus and became believers after being exposed to a distorted view or interpretation of his teaching. Having said that I completely agree that any distortion of Biblical truth should be avoided and condemned. I don't believe God approves of or uses falsehood to "attract' unbelievers but at the same time I do believe some people can start a search for the true Gospel if they are exposed to an accurate Bible verse in any situation.

I thought about this topic for some time after reading your post. While I don't see any issue with being described as a Christian I notice that I will often avoid it and using terms like believer instead. The reason I started being cautious about using the word Christian is because certain churches or denominations have their own definitions of who is really a Christian. As an example, if you go to a church of Christ you will notice that when they refer to "Christians" they talking specifically about others who believe as they do. When I use the word "Christians" I am typically referring to of all the redeemed not any specific group. I ran into the same hair splitting definitions even in IFB churches. One deacon in particular would correct me if I referred to someone who had non baptist beliefs. I can remember a conversation with him where I made the comment that I liked the word "disciple" and he immediately associated it with the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) denomination even though my opinion had absolutely nothing to do with them. I do think it's important to choose any kind of label we use based on who we are speaking to. The word Christian is used by so many people that it can be difficult for them ro know exactly who we are referring to. I remember when Trump was elected president he posed for a picture with Paula White and several other TBN frauds and it felt uncomfortable to me that these misfits had become the face of "Christianity" advising the President and possibly seen as what the Christian Right Republicans believed in. By far my favorite description is in Acts 9 when Luke refers to the believers as followers of "The Way".

Even some seminaries are problematic as well. I had a friend who studied theology at Anderson University (Church of God (Anderson)) and I asked to borrow one of her books for the course. When I was reading that book it was unbelievable how critical it was about the authenticity of the bible. It question the authors of the New Testament books as if there was no evidence or tradition that affirmed who they are attributed to. I gave her back the book disgusted knowing that is was part of the curriculum at a Christian university. You would've thought it was written but the Jesus Seminar group. So its no wonder why these Pastors ended up teaching things that are in unbiblical.

Yeah when you purchase one there is an insert in the box about the guarantee and how to register your copy. They are nice well made bibles though so they probably don't end up replacing many

Good point. I wasn't trying to challenge your answer or anything. I'm just genuinely curious how people interpret this topic. Thanks brother.