...

2 hours ago, weary warrior said:

So forgive me in advance for being my normal logical, thoughtfully agitating self ...

I will forgive you for being misinformed because I, myself, was not very long ago.  

There is a fantastic book called, Bible Wines by William Patton that explains all of your objections and many more.  He talks about how they would boil down the juices  until it would get thick.  In his book, he quotes Aristotle (born 384 BC) saying, "The wine of Arcadia was so thick, it was necessary to scrape it from the skin bottles in which it was contained, and to dissolve the scrapings in water."  The thickened juice-paste was often referred to as something called "must."

Patton also gives explanations of and references to processes that prevented fermentation and exalted non alcoholic wines/juices. Indeed, he gives a plethora of examples that support the view that the Bible forbids the consumption of alcoholic wine.  The above link will take you to a free, archived, online version of the book, downloadable in several formats.

On 10/22/2016 at 10:25 AM, Guest Stacey said:

If there is a publicly trade stock which I can purchase shares for on the stock exchange and they take part in a business like pornography which the bible clearly is opposed to, is it OK for me to purchase stock in the company?  

No, I don't believe it is ok to have dealings with such a company.  

On 10/22/2016 at 10:25 AM, Guest Stacey said:

But then a friend pointed out that most companies are committing sins of one form or another.

This is true.  Since companies are made up of humans and all humans sin, it is impossible to avoid doing business with a company that does not engage in sin.  However, acknowledging that all companies engage in sin, as a justification for doing business with them, is, I believe, a cop out.

If a local strip club also made beautiful hand made oak chairs, I would neither purchase their chairs nor would I invest in the chair making aspect of their business.  If I had no Idea that the chair maker also owned a strip club, I could, in good conscience, purchase or invest in his chairs.  However, once I became aware of the other aspect of his business, I believe that, as a Christian, I would be obliged to avoid him.

I have three brothers.  I will have dinner with and converse with any of them.  If I found out that one of them was struggling with child pornography, knew it was wrong and wanted help, I would help him and continue to have dealings with him.  However, if he didn't see anything wrong with it, I would never speak to him again, unless of course, he came to his senses.

We are not expected to completely cease from sinning.  That is impossible.  However, we are expected to turn our backs on sin when we are aware of it.  We mustn't excuse sin and have dealings with it, simply because it is impossible to avoid it completely.

Remember, a company is nothing more than a collection of individuals;  so is a nation.  God gives us plenty of examples of him judging individuals, tribes and nations.  Investing in companies that are known to be engaging in unrepentant sin, is turning a blind eye for the sake of personal profit.

27 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

So...there you have it. I love him beyond reason...however, the adults in his life have inflicted more pain and abuse on him in his 4 short years on earth than he deserves. Now, Nona and Poppa will be dealing with a child who will need a whole lot and neither one of us really have what it takes to dedicate our lives to a 4 year old. I'm 52, hub is 54. Neither one of us is thrilled about this...but we do what we have to do. 

I can empathize with you.  Other people's decisions can have unfair effects on the lives of other people.  But I know that you are old enough to understand that life is not fair.  We are in a fallen, sinful state and God has seen fit to allow us to keep the gift of free will.  As long as we have free will, we will all make decisions that will have adverse effects of other people; some of them even financially crippling and even fatal.

To answer your question, no, I do not believe you deserve or are owed the assistance of the government or from anyone else for that matter.  However, I also do not believe that I deserve assistance from the government or anyone else either.  We do not have the right to demand the fruits of anyone else's labor, nor do we have the right to the services or skills of others without payment.  

There are those who are unwilling to work and take advantage of individuals and programs.  What does God have to say about that?

(2 Thessalonians 3:10) "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat."

But what about those who are willing to work, but cannot?

(Matthew 25:35-40) "For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: {36} Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. {37} Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? {38} When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? {39} Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? {40} And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

If we see people in need, we should personally help them out of our own pockets, our own homes and our own kindness.  If we cannot afford to so, we can make the decision to help whom we should as a local church.  If neither we, as individuals nor our local churches can afford to help them, then those people must find help elsewhere or help themselves.  

Before we start demanding that the government and other people take care of those in need, we better have exhausted our own resources first.  If you have a spare room or even a spare floor in your own home, don't you dare ask the government to help find someone a place to stay.  The government gets its money from individual people.  If you have a warm roof over your head, or can cook a hot meal or even make a sandwich, you do it yourself; you don't say, "Someone should help that guy," and pass it off to someone else.

I have had many a dirt covered vagabond stay in my home over the years and will continue to do so.  How about you, Saved?  Do you have a room you could let someone sleep in?  How about a couch?  Could you spare some money to make sandwiches to pass out?  How about even ramen noodles?  Anything? Can you just sit with them and listen to them?  Can you share the Gospel with them?  Can you pray with them? What are YOU doing? I can guarantee that the government will not share the Gospel with them or pray with them. 

49 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

Did you read the articles I linked to? What did you think of them? Do you see where the whole pro-life issue went from a non-issue to an issue? Do you see where you have been duped and twisted? 

Therefore the only answer you will get to me is that while you choose to use such inflammatory language, I will not answer. Back down on the rhetoric, read the articles I linked and then maybe we can be on the same page on this discussion. 

Saved, It is s simple question.  No, I have not read the articles.  I do not believe that I should be asked to read a number of lengthy articles in order to receive an answer to a simple yes or no question.  Since you cannot seem to grant such a simple and honest request, which I believe I have done in a very kind manner, without putting words into your mouth as of yet, I can only assume that you are not answering because you believe that women should, indeed, have the legal right to terminate the lives of their unborn children.  You must have some special circumstances or special justifications for believing so and you may be refusing to answer the question because you believe the answer, in the affirmative, to be complicated.

If I read your previous posts correctly, you have only recently been baptized and, I assume, that you are a fairly new Christian (please correct me if I am wrong).  I believe that we should allow newer Christians to find their bearings and to give time to the Holy Spirit to convict them of sinful and evil thoughts and practices.  I still love you as a sister in Christ, but if you do, in fact, believe there are acceptable reasons for ending the life of an unborn child, I must inform you that you are wrong.  This is not opinion, this is fact.

Before God even created us in the womb, He knew us.  So, when a woman becomes pregnant, the being that is growing inside of her, however small and undefined, does, indeed possess a soul. God does not create a new living thing within the body of a woman and then, sometime later, put a soul into it.

(Jeremiah 1:5) "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Please read and consider what God says about causing a woman to lose her child.

(Exodus 21:22-25) "¶ If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. {23} And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, {24} Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, {25} Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

It is at least worthy of punishment and, at most, worthy of death.  There are some subjects that are open for discussion and debate and about which we, as Christians, can hold different opinions, but the subject of abortion is not one of them.  Even in the case of saving a mother's life, it is not acceptable.

Consider this:  Say that a mother and a baby are riding in a hot air balloon.  All of a sudden, one of the ropes, that holds the basket to the balloon, snaps, but the basket is still held secure.  Now another rope snaps.  Now another.  Now there is one rope left and the mother knows that the basket will definitely not hold the weight of both her and her child.  If you were that mother, would you throw your child out of the basket in the hope that it would save your own life?  Or would you leave your child in the basket and allow yourself to fall to a certain death; hoping the basket would hold your child?

We are all going to die.  It's just a matter of when and how.  Dying while in the process of giving birth to a child is just one of countless ways we can die, and, I would argue, a noble way.  However, allowing a doctor to end your child's life, just so you can have a few more years or decades to live, is possibly the most selfish and despicable thing a woman could possibly do, second only to "terminating" their child for convenience or for maintaining financial comfort.

In the case of rape, it is still evil.  The act of rape does not invalidate the life that God chose to create.  Remember, even though we may not understand everything He does, God intentionally created a life to come about as a result of that rape.  A child conceived by rape didn't somehow slip past God; He created it intentionally and to "terminate" it is to tell God that He was wrong, that He made a mistake and that the gift that He gave you is worthy of being destroyed and thrown into a dumpster.

In the case of birth defects, it is still evil.  Remember remember remember... God created that life on purpose.  If He wants a child to be born with Downe's Syndrome or AIDS or with no legs or without working lungs, or whether or not it lives or dies, that is God's business.  He has His reasons and we have no right to second guess His decisions.  

Talk to some abortion survivors.  Talk to some mothers who ignored the doctors and gave birth to perfectly healthy babies and survived giving birth just fine.  Doctors can be and are wrong very often.  Risk or no risk, healthy or disabled, a long life or a short one, abortion is always sinful and evil.  

As I have said before, I love you in Christ, but, my dear sister, abortion is an abominable evil.

11 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

You are failing to see a very nuanced position. You are also failing to see that abortion was a total non-issue to the Christian community (except for the Catholics) until after 1980, a full 7 years after the Roe v. Wade decision. You are also failing to see that since the SCOTUS decision in 1973, there have been Republican administrations in power for 23 of the last 44 years...and well...it has yet to be overturned. I think that before anyone else attempts to answer this, especially given the title of this thread, they may want to do some research on the rise of the "Religious Right" and the "Moral Majority". 

Saved, I don't understand why you cannot answer a very straight forward question.  I asked you if you believe that it should be illegal for any woman to get an abortion once they realize they are pregnant or if a woman should have the legal right to choose to abort her child.  Since you refuse to answer this, it leads me to infer that you do not wish to give a straight forward answer.

At this very moment, I am not concerned about what the SCOTUS or Republican or Democrat administrations have or have not done.  I am interested to know whether of not you believe that a woman should have the legal right to kill her unborn child.  I do not wish to put words in your mouth, so please answer that question.

22 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Does that include rape and murder?

This is not helping.  I think you know very well that she is not giving support for rape and murder being legal. 

36 minutes ago, Invicta said:

So you rely on luck rather than the Holy Spirit?

It was a figure of speech.  Come on, now.

As I said, social justice issues can be very contentious and many of them can be disagreed upon.  Things like whether or not healthcare should be free for all or if we should have a border wall, should not be something that splits Christians apart.  However, it is my opinion that the issue of abortion is of the utmost importance.  If someone claiming to be a Christian believes that a woman should have the legal right to end the life of the child living within her belly, for any reason, that is condoning infant murder.  That shows an extremely concerning flaw in the character of that person that must be addressed and corrected.  However, I still do not believe that it, in and of itself, effects a person's salvation.  It just means that the Holy Spirit still has much work to do in the conscience of that person.

17 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

I am opposed to abortion once the pregnancy has been established. However, I have no problem with birth control as properly used, IUD, the pill, etc. Contrary to what has been said, the IUD thins the uterine lining and stops ovulation (no menses, no ovulation). The same with the pill. No menses, no ovulation. 

However...once again...I find it problematic, especially in cases of catastrophic birth defects, genetic defects. I have never had to deal with that, thank God, but I have friends who have had to. Some chose to terminate the pregnancy and others have not. The closest I got was choosing to terminate life support on my already born child when it became obvious that he would never have a life worth living (bilateral Grade IV brain hemorrhage). He was 11 days old and passed from this world in my arms. 

I am attempting to establish your position.  Do you believe that it should be illegal for anyone to get an abortion once pregnancy has been established or do you believe that women should have the legal right to choose?

4 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

I oppose making it illegal, as I can see a return to the bad old days of back alley abortions and babies thrown in dumpsters. Making anything illegal is not an answer. You see how well prohibition worked.

Once a pregnancy reachers the definition you described, do you then oppose legalized abortion, or do you still believe it should be legal?  If so, when do you believe it should not be allowed?

2 hours ago, fastjav390 said:

Some are but the vast majority of Christians probably are not. 

I would agree; most churches usually only get together on Wednesday evenings and twice on Sundays.  What I am interested in is finding out what the Primitive Baptists believe.  If they're Calvinist or practice the TULIP thing, I will not be joining them.  I suppose the only way to know for sure is to pay them a visit.

7 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

So, what is the solution? Women keep having babies they can't or won't raise. Ok..so, contraception. Preferably long term like an IUD. Oh no...that MIGHT kill a fertilized egg...can't have that either. So...what's the solution?

Just for clarification, are you saying that you are pro choice?  I'm just a bit confused.

This is a very contentious subject that arises often amongst Christians.  Books have been written about it, lectures and sermons have been given.  I have been on both sides of the issue.  What I can tell you is that when my mind was changed, it did not happen as a result of heated debate.  It was a series of one on one conversations, with someone whom I respected a great deal and who took the time and patience to sit down at a table with a Bible  and calmly and kindly speak with me about it.  I would raise questions and he would walk me through each idea and their consequence/resolution in a Biblical way as well as a secular way.

From my experience, public debates about issues such as this, with both sides slinging their best defenses for their positions back and forth, have never resulted in one side being swayed toward the other.  It may happen, but I have never seen it.   

The same man, whom I mentioned above, once spoke to me about changing one's character.  He said that you can choose to engage in or refrain from certain behaviors by committing to doing so, but you cannot simply change your character.  To change your character takes time.  It is a process of changing one's belief system and worldview until it affects your heart and conscience.  

For example, a father might tell his child not to hit their sibling.  The child may choose to obey the father's command because they don't want to get into trouble, but they still don't see anything wrong with it and would still like to hit their sibling.  That is a decision.  However, over time, when the child realizes how hitting their sibling hurts them and is a bad thing to do, they will stop hitting their sibling because their character has changed.

The issue of social justice is connected to a person's particular worldview and must be changed in a similar manner.

Let's make sure that we continue to keep things civil.

12 minutes ago, swathdiver said:

Brother Stafford, AMEN!

Yes, I agree that my name is Brother Stafford.

I have read a lot of conflicting information about the Primitive Baptists.  Some sources say that they are Calvinist and other sources say they are not.  I have read that many of them sing Sacred Harp and that they are very minimalist and separatist, which I like.  There is a Primitive Baptist church tucked way back down an old dirt road not too far from my house that I was considering visiting.

Has anyone here had any experience with them?

I did not read the bot article but I have read The Shack.  I read it when it came out and I regret doing so.  it is one of the most blasphemous and heretical books I have ever read.  God is written as a black woman named both "Elousia" and "Papa", the Holy Spirit is a female asian ghost-like thing named "Sarayu" and Jesus is a middle eastern fun-loving carpenter, complete with tool belt and plaid shirt.

It contradicts scripture at every turn and it was very difficult for me to read it.  I kept getting so angry that I had to put it down and walk away from it for a while.  Truth be told, I actually threw it across the room a few times.  My (Catholic) mother read it a few years ago and loved it.  I have had to sit with her and a Bible many times since, to show her how it contradicts scripture, so that she would stop giving copies of it as gifts to her friends and family.  To be honest, I think she still does, but just doesn't tell me anymore.

It reminded me of a new age book that I was given in high school that I fell in love with called, "Illusions" by Richard Bach.  The stories are completely different but they share similar messages.  In Illusions, the Jesus-esque character is a biplane pilot pushing the idea that anyone can be a messiah, to some extent, if they just let go of their limitations and that our understanding of God is all wrong.  He's the same guy that wrote "Johnathan Livingston Seagull."  Both Bach's books are very well written and offer a dangerously compelling worldview for lost people searching for meaning.  The Shack is written equally as well and spiritually enticing.

David Cloud has an informative review of it in an article called, "The Shack's Cool God."  It's worth a read.

There is absolutely no redeeming value in The Shack whatsoever. It is evil and should be avoided.  Some people think that we need to see or read every popular thing that comes out that is leading people astray.  For example, I remember when "The last Temptation of Christ" came out and many Christians thought they had to see that in order to refute it.  I completely disagree.  We don't have to witness a murder in order to tell people that it's sinful.  We don't have to watch pornography to warn people about its sinfulness.  I don't think we need to study and understand all of the world's false teachings in order to refute them either.  If we had to do that, we would be spending all of our time reading godless, worldly garbage and would have no time for reading and studying the Bible.

I think Christians should be spending their time studying scripture to be able to answer questions about God's word.  We were called to share the Gospel and to preach God's word, not to study the teachings of fools.

On 1/22/2017 at 4:58 AM, Saved41199 said:

(naval shipbuilding)

Wow!  Those must have been reeeally tiny!

Thank you for your feedback.  I do realize that certain things were thought to be innocent at one time, like nude baby photos that show an infant nude and lying on its stomach.  Even though certain things are thought to be innocent, it does not mean that they are.  I believe indecency is indecency regardless of cultural norms.  Primitive cultures are still being indecent and sinful by being naked, even though it is their cultural norm. I am sure that many of the citizens of Sodom thought certain things were normal.

It is also a norm, in our culture, to display paintings and life-sized statues, of adult men and women, in public places and to encourage adults and children to look at them.  We allow this because it's considered "art."  Our culture allows their young daughters to wear skin tight and revealing clothing in public - including in many churches - and this is thought to be a norm.

It's also thought to be an innocent thing to allow little girls to compete in "sexy baby" pageants.

It is one thing for a child to run about without their diaper while the parent tries to catch them to put clothes back on them.  It is quite another thing to encourage it and allow a drunk neighbor intentionally record zoomed shots for later viewing.  It is one thing to give your children needed baths in the privacy of one's home.  It is quite another to take the time to set up a huge, clunky video camera, connect it to a detached recording deck, set up lights and record two naked little girls and then give that footage to a family member, ask them to duplicate it and upload it to youtube for the rest of the family to download it.

When I was a boy, I came across pictures of this same caliber, in the home of a man who I would discover later to be a pedophile.

My eldest sister has asked me to convert all of her home VHS tape recordings starting in 1980.  I have come across two different tapes where she had recorded her daughters and a neighbor's son completely nude (including genitalia).  The first is of my eldest niece and the neighbor's son when she was two and he was three.  They are having their diapers changed in front of a room full of eight adult friends (consuming alcohol) and are allowed to run about the room completely naked.  There is a shot where the man running the recorder zooms in on my niece's posterior while she is in a compromising position.  The second tape I found is of my sister (their mother) recording her giving both of her daughters a bath.  They are ages three and seven and they too are shown completely nude.

I am expected to convert these as well and give my sister the digital copies and return the original tapes to her.  However, I am indescribably disturbed by these videos, to the point that I am almost shaking with anger.  Why would a mother find it appropriate to record her children and a neighbor boy in this manner?  I am sure that if the footage was found in my possession, that I may be arrested for possessing child pornography.

I am planning on not duplicating those parts of the tapes and telling her that if she wants those parts converted, that she will have to get them done elsewhere.

Am I right in finding this so completely deplorable? 

18 minutes ago, HappyChristian said:

Sigh. Just sigh.

I don't understand.  What would that accomplish?

Welcome fastjav.  

I was just thinking; even if God had said that He gives up on sodomites, could we not still offer intercessory prayer?  Didn't Moses do that very thing and succeed in convincing God to change His mind?

(Exodus 32:9-14) "And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: {10} Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. {11} And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? {12} Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. {13} Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. {14} And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

6 hours ago, busdrvrlinda54 said:

That lasted until I got tired of him drop kicking his Bible across the room and swearing at his congregation. That I objected to, and I stopped watching him. 

I couldn't find him dropkicking a Bible, but I found him kicking the side of his podium.  I did manage to find him swearing at his congregation (uses the word "hell" in a profane manner).

11 minutes ago, busdrvrlinda54 said:

That lasted until I got tired of him drop kicking his Bible across the room and swearing at his congregation.

I've seen him do some crazy things, but I have never seen him do anything to a Bible other than pound it.  I have also never heard him swear.  Could you provide links to such videos?