MikeWatson1

There are other books that elaborate more in detail and more accurately on this history. There is My Church by J M Moody, The Battle for Baptist History by I K Cross and The History of the Baptist's by John T Christian. What makes the Albigensis etc...heretical? When the Roman Catholics are calling them heretical they aren't measuring against the Word of God but their Catholic teachings..same with the Protestant denominations that called them heretical. The RCC and the likes of Methodists, Presbyterians and Anglicans all practice infant baptism and having one bishop overseeing multiple congregations. I have heard the Waldenses , Albigensis etc have alot of works for salvation, but the problem is their accusers were off beam themselves and they wrote most of the church history. So what were those groups teaching that was wrong?

Yeah it's illogical to say you are a different pronoun to what you are biologically. It's a post modern, very subjective concept without God. I think even the drag queens and wot not in the past still knew they were men. They were being like women to the extreme, but still saw themselves as biological men.

As my old pastor once said.. 'you can't legislate faithfulness ' A church could measure someone's faithfulness in numbers.. like how many times gone soul winning, how many times attended church service, bible study etc etc.. But then it's without context. And what if they keep up a level of attendance in service, bible study etc.. but are shallow in their faith? Like 'look at me, look at what I'm doing' but their heart for God is icy or superficial. Like ticking boxes of performance without heart.

The body of Christ defined in 1 co 12 is the church at Corinth. Local and visible. Assembled, saved and baptised believers, covenanted to carry out the great commission and commandment. That is different to the Family of God. All redeemed. Saved, but may not be baptised or in a local body of Christ. These two groups don't have the same destiny in the end. Both in heaven, but not there with the same rewards or at the same time.

I've understood predestination to be about heaven being pre set for a person who is born again. Not pre chosen as in one group is saved pre-determined and the other not. I've understood 'elect' to be all who responded to the call for salvation thru Jesus Christ. Whether Jew or Gentile. Also those who have joined a church God considers His own have a slightly better destiny than those who didn't join one. So people in those churches have a pre set destiny if they remain a faithful church member.

Yeah I should have mentioned Church of Christ. I find it interesting how many COC churches have the same belief I do of a body of Christ being purely local. It lends credence to the origins of the COC being baptist first and then going off beam. But that is one thing that I think many many believers unwittingly fall into.. is if they treat 1 co 12:13 as being baptism to enter the body of Christ.. how do they NOT make that baptism for salvation? I think the main thing most do is say it is not water baptism.. but the Holy Spirit baptising. But then.. where is that Holy Spirit baptism in scripture? Washing by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.. that is not Holy Spirit baptism.

Hi all, blessings. I've been in a number of different christian forums posting with others, and two main off beam teachings keep re-occuring and gaining popularity. The first is baptismal regeneration. Seems a whole lot of people get confused between the Holy Spirit empowering a group or individual, baptism by immersion and eternal salvation. And most forums, the individuals who adhere to baptismal regeneration don't get kicked out, but can just continue in there as long as they like. The other- is lowering Christ's deity, so He is lesser than the Father. Some Messianic Jews do this-- who haven't fully let go of Judaism. Obviously.. Orthodox Jews do.. Unitarians do this a lot, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, among others. These people also don't usually get kicked from a christian forum. Anyway.. your thoughts on these kind of beliefs and their prevalence?

Yeah, that is what I am imagining would happen with a western woman going to Iran.. they would have to abide by the laws and what does that mean for them?

Our previous Prime minister Jacinda Ardern put on the hijab to give Muslims living here a message of 'they are us', following the mosque shooting in my city Christchurch. The 'they are us' idea was unity in being human... humanistic philosophy. It was good to denounce the violence and killing at the mosque, but I thought..what if Jacinda wore that Hijab in Iran? I know she would be safe in a way because she would be not braking Muslim laws in Iran..but I also thought since she'd be abiding by those laws..would she be subsumed into their society, have her rights mostly taken away and not be able to come back to NZ? Some one said..no as a tourist she would be fine. But it does make me wonder.

Wasn't quite understanding you there but now getting what you are saying. That God doesn't love as in convert without them being convicted of their need for the Saviour first?

To give sinners the chance to believe on Him is incredibly deep love.

We are in election time in NZ. The middle left govt is Labour and the middle right is National. National used to be a conservative vote, but the middle now has moved to be liberal in NZ. So National isn't really a conservative vote. Many people vote with their wallets.. I voted for a party against gender ideology and against abortion. Most of the parties here have allowed abortion and gender ideology

Yes this reminds me of rap artists who usually have a song about God in their album but the rest of the album is about cars, guns, alcohol and women with alot of swearing. I know country music usually isn't that bad, but both genres seem to have alot of singers who start in the church (or at least something that's calls itself a church), and then go way off into a different lifestyle.

I've got an old book on guidelines to study the Bible and it had questions that illuminate the meaning of passages . Who is talking to whom? What is the subject? What is the occasion for speaking? (I think this includes time and place) So you get a verse like 'where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am with them ' from Jesus. Believers who don't get into context will say it applies to any situation to believers gathered anywhere. The context though is a NT church process of discipline for a sinning brother. A revision of the process Israel used in the wilderness for discipline.

Yea .. they say a saved person WILL be faithful to the end and if not..then never saved. That is works for salvation...yet then say you can't decide to receive Jesus as Saviour and they call that a work.

No other way. Obedience to commands is works.. but when it's obeying the call to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus.. then obviously it's all scriptural ?

Obeying the call to believe on Jesus Christ?

Yeah, reminds me of when I was at work and mentioned going past a bar/restaurant that was designed for women and I called them ladies. The supervisor, a lady, said I'd have to be careful what I said around here and don't use the word 'lady'. Alot of women these days are offended by the term lady. I always thought it as a dignified term as alongside 'gentlemen'. A respectful term. And then it's been pushed further than that... with women identifying themselves as 'non binary' or actually a man. And we are supposed to be not allowed to say they are still a woman. Reality checks are often needed in today's subjective society.

Okay.. ah so you aren't linking works to salvation but the command to believe in Him?

Yeah.. but that can only be done AFTER conversion, right? Obedience isn't part of conversion

Here is the issue put forward here by Ono... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iytw4eHQEE

I guess it is the same issue of 'back loading ' works into salvation. People having to prove they are converted by their good deeds. Turning from sin and committing your life to Christ I believe are righteous and Godly things. But I think you gotta have your sins forgiven ..be converted..before doing life commitments and lessening sin in your life. It's right to want to serve Jesus of course..but mix service into salvation and salvation may not happen. The central thing of why I oppose turning from sin in tracts as part of salvation.. is it isn't self reformation at salvation but knowing you can't reform yourself without Jesus. Putting turning from sin as part of salvation..to me is the same as trying to make a lifelong commitment to Christ of good deeds. If someone fails in this commitment or fails in turning from sin after they think they are saved...then like you say...fears they weren't saved. But it is Jesus' forgiveness that gets them to heaven... not their behaviour. Of course there will be fruit from being saved... and someone who falls into old sin will be rebuked by God..so it's likely they will turn from sin. But the promise to turn from sin isn't receiving eternal life.

Okay, yes. It's common on other site forums to say a saved person IS going to do good works..be faithful to the end. And if they aren't...to say they were never converted. Doesn't matter if they have they have believed.

I kind of agree with you, but I'm not a fan of saying a saved person definitely WILL do good works. There definitely will be fruit from being converted... but that can be invisible to others looking from outside. It's a work on the persons soul...not an outward work of good deeds.

It is extremely popular these days to have in a salvation tract 'commiting your life to Christ ' and/or 'turning from sin'... for receiving eternal salvation. These are fine and noble things of course. But are they things someone can actually do before conversion? Is not 'turning from sin' ..a work? Is not 'commiting your life to Christ ' also a work? Salvation is all about believing on Jesus Christ... it isn't an effort on the part of the believer of behaviour. You gotta know you are a sinner at salvation of course... otherwise how would God convict you.. but repent doesn't mean 'turn from sin ' as a behaviour..but 'change of heart, mind' that happens at belief on Jesus. John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28..Romans 5:8