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Everything posted by 360watt

  1. I support the local church. I am just trying to get clarity from scripture about what the bride is. Still looking to post scripture in reply
  2. I'm linking it to the local church as the bride being the church in heaven. Still local and visible.
  3. To those who believe the church is always a local, visible assembly in scripture.. What then is the bride of Christ?
  4. My understanding of this passage is that it is speaking of the local church body. So it is full immersion in water baptism as a pre requirement to join a church.
  5. Well I have put my trust in Jesus Christ.. believing in His life, death and resurrection. If it wasn't at 13 years old it would have been at university when I believed for sure. I'm 100 percent sure I am saved. Because of what Jesus has done for me. I am just not sure how receiving the Holy Spirit at salvation is also Holy Spirit baptism
  6. Well, when I was 13 years old, I got an understanding that I needed to ask God to forgive me of my sins. Before that I didn't really understand.. thought I had to say 'I forgive you' to God! So I called out for salvation out of that conviction I needed to ask for forgiveness of sins. It was while I was at our families holiday home.. called a bach here in New Zealand :)
  7. Thanks for the reply. I get that it is meant to be receiving salvation but I don't see the Holy Spirit baptism in there. Are you saying when some one receives Christ they are figuratively baptized by the Holy Spirit?
  8. What is the biblical basis for the Holy Spirit baptizing some one at salvation? When Jesus said to the disciples he would baptize them with the Holy Spirit and fire... 1 they were already saved 2 they were a group.. not as an individual being saved 3 when they are at pentecost and the church gets empowered to me seems what this Holy Spirit baptism was
  9. The trail of blood book is generally accurate but not very detailed. There are other books that expand on its history like The Battle for Baptist History by I.k.cross or My Church by J.M.Moody
  10. You've also got missionary baptist churches that are pentecostal with mainly African American people. I go to independent missionary baptist but they believe all gifts have ceased aside from faith hope and love. So yeah best to see what a church actually believes rather than its designated label
  11. Not so much music as 'guided meditation'. Given a tape to listen to that is meant to assist you in being 'one' with the universe or a animal or object. Although there was atmospheric music in the background - similar to the alpha brain wave sleep music you can get on you tube. We didn't call what we were doing 'New Age' or 'Mystic' either, we called it 'mutli-level healing' We used to go out into a village near a ski field and meditate among the rocks and forest in the area. Felt good... but the foundation? Shifting sands! It is the bible that never shifts and stands firm.. the Word of God.
  12. About 15 years ago I was into New Age/Mystic beliefs. I believe I was saved before getting into them. You may say.. how can that be? But you gotta understand that 1) I didn't know my bible very well then-- I was about 21 and 2 )had been going to so called churches that teach vague doctrine. The other thing though.. is that when you are in these circles.. a lot of people will actually say 'we INCLUDE christians..we accept all religions' The group I was in would actually talk about putting on the 'Christ consciousness' This is not treating Christ as God though.. it's being like a gnostic and absorbing all knowledge about Jesus and trying to be Jesus. It's not 'putting on the mind of Christ' but treating Jesus as just another spiritual force to be drawn from. Anyway.. what experience have you all had with mystic/new age religion? (I know this covers a huge area of beliefs)
  13. I think this line of reasoning also applies to gifts of the Holy Spirit. I imagine the early churches accepted faith hope and love as remaining gifts without needing to declare for a long time. Then with Pentecostalism and Charismatic influence later you see the reasoning of the cessation of spiritual gifts aside from faith hope and love being written about.
  14. I agree with you that real baptist churches have been around since the first NT churches. Look at a book that records these churches in the Valleys of Piedemont in the Alps and Valleys I think of France that ran from persecution and lived in the mountains and valleys-- separate from Roman Catholics and before the Reformation. There pattern of doctrine is after the NT churches pattern and true baptist churches now adhere to very much the same pattern. Another book regarding this is the Battle for Baptist History by I.K.Cross There is also the Trail of Blood-- although I know this book kinda needs other books with it to tease it out more. It's credible history... but put in a way that is easily misunderstood. What I am curious about is the UK have their Baptist Union.. and that is where the NZ Baptist churches came out of. The NZ Baptist churches website has a pentecostal type of statement of faith. The UK baptist union.. looks like another reformation line -- the same kind of teaching and liberalisation of scriptures. But maybe like you say.. it used to have biblically straight baptist churches and then over time took on heresies.
  15. Another way of blowing theistic evolution out of the water is talking about Jesus' payment for sin and resurrection. The whole reason why Jesus did this does not compute with theistic evolution. It's the same issue.. what brings death in to the world. If it's just death before men came in.. natural.. what's the need for Jesus' sacrifice.
  16. 1 Corinthians 12: What is this a picture of ? A body of every believer? Or the church at Corinth and every other local church God calls His own? If you are going to call this entity every believer.. it does not fit with any kind of notion of being 'framed together, united, assembled, gathered..' or any of those kinds of words. But those kinds of words are what is associated with the body of Christ. It's like there is this automatic switch that goes on where as soon as 'body of Christ' is mentioned.. everyone just without thinking goes straight to 'every believer' or 'all regenerated' So anyway-- 1 Corinthians 12: (1Co 12:12) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. one body.. with a member being an individual believer... this does not mean though that there are no other bodies.. the body in question is at Corinth. (1Co 12:13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Paul was baptised by full immersion in reference to a local body.. not Corinth. The other members of the church at Corinth were baptised in reference to that body at Corinth. No violation of scripture. It is also with the concept of the royal 'we'... a speaker could come to a church and say 'we' in reference to a topic.. but he is really meaning the church he is talking to. Or meaning His own church.. and there church.. as examples. (1Co 12:14) For the body is not one member, but many. many individuals in a local church body.. making the one body. (1Co 12:15) If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? (1Co 12:16) And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? (1Co 12:17) If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? (1Co 12:18) But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. (1Co 12:19) And if they were all one member, where were the body? (1Co 12:20) But now are they many members, yet but one body. (1Co 12:21) And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. (1Co 12:22) Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: (1Co 12:23) And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. (1Co 12:24) For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: (1Co 12:25) That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. (1Co 12:26) And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Look at this language.. these terms.. this is of something visible and united and assembled.. not 'universal, invisible' (1Co 12:27) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And here is the clincher! ye are the body of Christ--- who is the 'ye'? It is not every believer...! 'ye' is the church body at Corinth. And also--- using the word 'local' in front of church. This is a bit silly. Same with using 'local' in front of body. They are local by their definition! Church = ecclessia-- called out assembly, gathering, public meeting. Body- by definition is framed together, knit together, united, visible, assembled, gathered etc.. So the use of the word 'local' is a misnomer. It is local every time without needing the word added to church or body. Again.. there will be a church of every believer in heaven.. but that is still.. 'visible, local' and is 'yet, future' The state of all christians now is being part of the Family of God. That is not a body of Christ though.
  17. Yes, this is probably where I get a lack of response or non-plussed-ness from those I have discussed it with. A primary one that really shows the difference is 1 Corinthians 12:13. As Swathdriver has shown.. it's not a picture of a universal body of every believer. But this is a primary scripture universalists will hang their hat on.
  18. Yeah.. reminds of Jesus, in Matthew 18, telling the disciples to 'tell it to the church'.. Are they gonna be seriously talking about resolving a sin issue with a brother to a 'universal, invisible' church? Poppy coddle!
  19. Okay so I have many times tried to reason with universalists (those that believe the church or the body of Christ is every believer) ... to explain how 'the church' is every time of a particular assembly.. not a universal entity of every believer. I know every believer will one day be a church in heaven.. but that is not 'universal, invisible' .. it is still 'local, visible'. On earth now.. what we have is local bodies of believers.. not one entity of every believer that is somehow 'the church'. Anyway.. How do you teach this to universalists? I was one myself.. but no matter what I reason with in scripture.. pretty much nobody gets it! Any advice on how to explain this local only church to universalists?
  20. Thanks for this Swathdriver.. this is exactly what I believe but needed some re-assurance. 1 Corinthians 12:13.. gets mangled and twisted to mean just about anything.. but as these great preachers have shown..it's about water baptism after eternal salvation being given, that by full immersion, that is a pre-requisite to join a local New Testament church. 'Body' in 'the body of Christ'.. is a knit together, united, visible, assembly of saved baptised believers.. covenanted together to carry out the Great Commission and Commandment with Jesus as the Head.
  21. Okay, so nowadays.. this seems to have been twisted and turned to mean all sorts of things: Some think it is for an individual alone and is actually eternal salvation being given. The most common scripture quoted I think is 1 Corinthians 12:13. They are interpreting 'body' in this sense to mean 'every believer'.. so baptism of the Holy Spirit becomes the same thing as salvation. Some say it is not about eternal salvation.. but happens to the individual at water baptism.. so they get baptised by teh Holy Spirit aswell. Some say it is not about eternal salvation.. but is the Holy Spirit empowering an individual. I have learned it is not about eternal salvation.. but is the Holy Spirit empowering a local church.. coming to be with them 'in the midst'.. basing this off calling the 'body of Christ'.. each time referring to a local body.. or an example for all local bodies plural. So 1 Corinthians 12:13 becomes about people having joined the Corinth local church body.. since the surrounding passage can only be about the church at Corinth. Here it is talking about full immersion water baptism. So .. penny for your thoughts.
  22. No worries I have been under the impression that if you want to find a church God would call His own.. then you go to key doctrines that haven't changed thru the centuries since the first New Testament churches. So.. landmark baptists.. would call for 'not removing the ancient landmarks'.. referring to the the key doctrines of the early churches that should be kept in churches now if they are to be called one of Jesus' churches. I only have experience though of these churches being mainly non-calvinist.. and also non-armenian.. knowing mainly of churches in the Baptist Missionary Alliance and the American Baptist Association..plus a few here in New Zealand. But really.. as far as teaching goes.. my church would have the same teaching as a whole lot of bible Baptists churches as well as independent missionary baptists.. and there will be many many churches with no denomination but actually have the same teaching. There are also Southern Baptist churches that hadn't changed their teaching from the past and have the same teaching. Anyway.. I would need to look at what the bride of Christ is referred to in Revelation compared to the Family of God to give a definite answer.
  23. I am part of a missionary landmark baptist church.. independent missionary baptist. A key teaching.. which is not just limited to 'landmark' baptists.. is that the body of Christ is a local body and not every believer. I would disagree with No Nicolaitans that it is only landmark baptist churches that are the churches Jesus calls His own. There are many many many other churches that don't carry that name but have the same or very similar beliefs that would also be considered a church Jesus would call His. The teaching that the body of Christ is a local body only.. comes from looking at what the meaning of 'church' is originally. Jesus said 'on this rock I will build my church' .. is this talking about every believer.. or a reference to the local church -New Testament assembly that He would be building and continuing thru other churches? Church = ecclessia. Ecclessia- generally meant an assembly.. congregation.. And according to one scholar .. if it ever lost the idea of assembling and congregating it would cease to be a one. If it doesn't assemble or congregate.. it isn't a 'church' Every believer.. doesn't assemble, congregrate.. how can that be 'the church'? Landmark baptists I think would believe there will one day be a gathering of all christians together as one body in heaven.. but it is still a visible, local assembly. On earth.. now.. what we have is churches plural.. but not one church of every believer yet. The only thing I will add is that IFB is sometimes the same thing as Landmark Baptist. A Landmark Baptist church would generally be.. independent, fundamental, baptist.
  24. There is a key point here that you put in your post.. Eternal salvation isn't 'commiting your life to Christ' or 'Surrendering everything to Him' This is very true! It's pure and simply.. praying to Jesus our Saviour.. God, out of conviction on the soul ... along the lines of 'God have mercy upon me, a sinner!' Romans 10:-- 'confess with thy mouth..confession is made unto salvation..' That isn't something that happens later in life.. it happens there at the moment of being saved. It's a once off, instant act on the part of Jesus to the sinner who is under conviction and receives Jesus as their Saviour. The 'sinners prayer' may not be term actually in the bible.. but it is definitely in harmony with scripture such as Romans 10. Many people think it is as bogus idea.. mainly calvinists or works for salvationists.. what they don't realise is the salvation is coming out conviction from the Holy Spirit first on the sinner.. who then receives the free gift of eternal life. The salvation isn't coming from the sinner.. only the choice to believe.
  25. Thanks for the honest post Wmccarthy99 Your experience is common for many people, including believers. Someone thinks they were saved past tense.. and then they get into a period of sin, even bad sin. They don't 'feel' close to God. They feel like they are just like any one else in the world. I don't know if this is you, but know that this is common. These thoughts and experiences though, don't mean you weren't saved before. If you had entrusted your salvation with Jesus.. along the lines of acknowledging you are a sinner and need deliverance.. then Jesus would have responded in kind. You would have been given eternal life. Remember John 3:16---For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Remember Romans 10:9-10---- (Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Rom 10:11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Remember John 10:28- (Joh 10:28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (Joh 10:29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Remember John 5:24-Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Now put these verses alongside Hebrews 6. Hebrews 6 isn't about someone saved losing eternal life.. or someone not saved to begin with. it IS about someone who is saved.. converted.. not being able to use animal sacrifices or self righteous works to please God. They can't be renewed to repentance.. because they already repented at being given eternal life! 'Fall away' in this verse.. doesn't mean 'lose eternal life'.. it just means 'struggle with sin' or 'distance from God' Are you honestly going to call someone who- has 'tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,', ' And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, ' --- not saved? Added to this-- The context of Hebrews is about believers going on to maturity and not going back to learn the basic elementary principles of the faith of Christ. So therefore Hebrews 6 is about the same thing. About believers going on to maturity..being faithful. Not about anything else. You gotta keep Hebrews alongside other verses about eternal salvation from the bible. It doesn't stand alone. The whole thing is one great jigsaw that is in complete harmony.

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