John Young

Two phrases I avoid when leading someone to the Lord...
1.) How do you feel?
2.) Just pray this prayer.

The NKJV was sort of a hybrid bible. The original intent was to update the KJV and to show the N-A variations but several areas they directly changed the reading to reflect the N-A preferred reading rater then sticking with just updating the passage. Also the biggest issue with the NKJV is not the text but rather the N-A marginal notes. Everywhere the KJV differs from the preferred N-A reading they placed a note indicating what the the "better translation" was or where they think a scribe added a verse they would say "this verse does not appear in the best manuscripts", or etc. The manuscripts they claim are better are ones ignored by the TR composers and the KJV Translators because those manuscripts were of questionable origin and authenticity.

I agree, some door knock for door knocking sake and could care less about the known wishes of an area. If I know the door should not be knocked, we mail them our information and ask if we can stop by. The goal of door knocking is not to knock the door but to make sure that every person in our area of influence has the opportunity to hear the gospel and knows that our church is there for them if they should ever need us.

I say that all the time! lol :) 

Brother Dave,
3.  To assure you -- I did NOT AT ALL believe that you held to a Baptist bride position.
2.  I thank you for the compliment in that you "value" my thoughts in the realm of Bible study.
1.  I do not necessarily think that my thoughts would "sidetrack" the thread; however, I do NOT wish to engage contrary to your parameters and permission.
A beginning question to consider -- What BIBLICAL grounds do we have for calling each of the two ordinances "church ordinances"?  In many cases, our viewpoint concerning the practice of these two ordinances begins with this premise, and then proceeds with some logical progression from that premise.  Yet the above question challenges us to consider whether the premise itself has BIBLICAL substance.  (Note: In considering the question, I believe that we should separate our consideration of the two ordinances as individual elements, so as not to assume something for one ordinance on the grounds of the other ordinance.)  Indeed, I would challenge that we consider the ordinance of Biblical Baptism first. 

Look at Paul's gospel presentation in Athens compared to elsewhere.
In Athens his approach is different although the Gospel is the same.
There is no such thing as a "one size fits all" Presentation method.
You need to assess the person and convdrsation and vary your approach to suit.
Note that I am talking about method and approach, not gospel.
There is, was, and always will be only one Gospel.
And I would warn people to be very wary with Macarthur.....
 

Lesson # 17
 
Some of the subjects in Amos 9:13-15 I had previously commented on. In an effort not to be redundant, and in order to concentrate on the phrase, “... the captivity of my people of Israel…” I will refer the reader to the previous lesson number and passages. If this is an inconvenience, or you have a comment, or you want to discuss a passage I lightly commented on, please feel free to bring out your comments, questions, disagreements, or thoughts.
 
Amos 9:13-15, “The Release of the Captivity of Israel.”
 
“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and the hills shall melt. And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.”
 
An over-abundance of physical blessings in the land of Israel
 
“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and the hills shall melt.” The prophet Amos prophecies that the days will come in which the crops of the people will provide an over-abundance (“… overtake thee …” Deut.28:2), of food. There will be so much food grown that the individual who plows the ground up for seed will overtake the individual reaping the crop. This situation has never risen in the history of the nation of Israel to our day. This prophecy is literal, observable, and of practicable use for people.
 
This prophecy will be in accordance to the blessings of Moses as recorded in Deuteronomy 28:1-14 “And these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.” Deuteronomy 28:2 the prophet Amos is simply speaking prophetically what God had previously mentioned in Deuteronomy 28: 1-13 “And the LORD  shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt not be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them.” Deuteronomy 28:13 When a person is the “tail” or is “beneath” somebody, or a State, he is in subjection, or control, of that person or State.
 
I had previously taught on the overabundance of the agricultural blessings in Israel of the prophet Amos prophecies of in the study on Joel 2:21-27 (Lesson # 16, Part 1 of 2 and 3:18-21 (Lesson # 16, Part 2 of 2).
 
Clarence Larkin, in his book, “The Book of Revelation,” brought out this truth in one of his charts.
 
Chart, “The Church as seen in the Book of Revelation [1]
 

 
The chart is located between page 38 and 40
 
Under the blocked section, “The Thousand Years,” you will see the title, “Millennial Dispensation;” in the dotted oval, under the title, “Israel Supreme,” you will see the “Deut.28:13,” scripture reference.
 
The Captivity of Israel among the Nations of the World
 
Webster’s 1828 Dictionary defines captivity as the following:
1. The state of being a prisoner.
2. Subjection to love.
3. Subjection; a state of being under control. Bringing into captivity     
     every thought to the obedience of Christ. 2 Cor. x.
4. Subjection; servitude; slavery.
     But I see another law in my members – bringing me into captivity to the law of sin.  
     Rom. vii.
 
To lead captivity captive, in scripture, is to subdue those who have held others in slavery, or captivity. Ps. lxviii.[2]
 
The root definition of captivity is being under subjection, or under the control, of another. This subjection can be spiritual, mental, emotional, physical (whether a prisoner of war or a criminal prisoner). This subjection, or under the control of another, can be either intentional (as in love), or unintentional (as in war, as the punishment for a crime or a miss-deed).
 
When the nation of Israel was in obedience to the commands of God, they were under His subjection (captivity), and God controlled the events that affected the nation of Israel. God plainly expressed the blessings that He would give to the nation of Israel if they obeyed His commandments, precepts, and control, in Deuteronomy 28:1-14 “And these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.” Deuteronomy 28:2
 
“And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel …” The prophet Joel prophesied, “For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and I will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations and parted my land.” Joel 3:1 and 2
 
The scattering of the Jews from the land of Israel is referred to as, “The Diaspora.” Please see lesson # 16, Part 2 of 2, for my comments on Joel 3:1 and 2
 
 Moses prophesied that when the nation of Israel rebelled against the Lord, the Lord would cause the Jews to be removed from their land and to be scattered among the nations. The prophet Joel and Amos expressed the scattering of the Jews among the nations as a, ‘captivity.’
 
“And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.” Deuteronomy 4:27
 
“And the LORD shall scatter thee among thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.” Deuteronomy 28:64
 
The Captivity of Job
 
Job 42:10 states, “And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.” Job was a righteous man full of integrity. The Lord protected Job with a hedge about him and blessed his life, family, finances, and physical health. In Job 1:6-11 Satan accused Job before God and stated that Job served the Lord due to these blessings and protection. After the accusation, God said, “And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.” Job 1:12 In this test, God gave Satan the power to control the events surrounding Job in order to take away all of the blessings that God had previously given Job.
 
After the love for God, and faith in God, was proved under the severe trial of losing his servants, his possessions, his finances, and the death of his sons and daughters, Satan again accused Job by saying, “And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.” Job 2: 4 and 5
 
Before the severe testing of Job, Job was under subjection, or under control, or in the captivity, of the Lord God in Heaven. God gave Satan the ability to even touch the physical body of Job with physical pain and sufferings hardly ever experienced by an individual.
 
While under the hand of Satan, Job was in captivity. After the end of the severe trials that God allowed Job to endure, and after he prayed for his friends who mentally abused him, “And the LORD turned the captivity of Job …”  
 
Like Job, the nation of Israel is under the captivity, or under the subjection and control, of Satan as Joel 3:1 & 2 states. Like Job, once God determines to end the captivity of the nation of Israel, God said, through his prophet Amos, “And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel …”
 
God Plucked the Jews from the land of Israel
 
In 70 A.D., God ‘plucked’ the Jews from the land of Israel, cast them out of the land, scattered them among the nations of world, and the Jews have been held ‘captive’ in heathen lands up to this day; 2 Chronicles 7:19-22 “But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my command-ments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them; Then I will pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among the nations.” Deuteronomy 7:19 & 20
 
 As promised by God to the Patriarchs, gave the Jews the land of Israel. Genesis 12:1-3 and, due to the sins of Israel in rejecting the Lord Jesus as Messiah, God plucked them out of the land until the Jews repent of their unbelief. The nation of Israel is still under the captivity of the nations of the world as God pronounced in the series of cursing’s in Deuteronomy 28:1 -68 “The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed unto all the kingdoms of the earth.” Deuteronomy 28:25
 
Ezekiel 37:1-14,”The Vision of the Valley of Dry Bones”
 
I dealt with Ezekiel 37:15-20, and titled that portion of scripture, “The Vision of the Dry Bones,” in lesson # 2, (Isaiah 11:13-16). In Ezekiel 37:15-20 the vision is directed primarily to the ‘stick of Judah and Israel,’ portion of the ‘Vision of the Valley of Dry Bones,’ it seemed best for me to rename the title I gave of Ezekiel 37:15-20 to, “The Vision of the Sticks.” I will edit the previous title (in Lesson # 2), that I gave it to reflect the change.
 
Ezekiel 37:1-14, “The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O LORD God, thou knowest. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the LORD God unto these bones; behold, I will cause breath to enter unto you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the LORD God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceeding great army. Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you out of your graves. And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I am the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.”
 
The Vision of the Valley of the Dry bones is foretelling that one day the Lord will restore the Jews to the land of Israel. I had previously mentioned this in connection with the review of the Clarence Larkin book, “The Book of Revelation.” Here is that link:
 
The graves that the bones dwell in are the nations of the world. God interpreted the message as, “… these bones are the whole house of Israel…” The whole prophesy of the Vision of the Valley of Bones is directed to, “… O my people..” The, “people” of God is the house of Israel.
 
The People of God – the Nation of Israel
 
In the Old Testament, the ‘people of God,’ is a reference to the nation of Israel. In a direct reference to the nation of Israel, the Prophet Samuel said, “For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name’s sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people.” 1 Samuel 12:22
 
Saved Gentiles become a Partaker of the People of God
 
In the Bible, the nation of Israel is likened to the Olive Tree and the Gentiles are likened to a, ‘wild Olive Tree.’ When a Gentile is saved in the Church Age, like a branch grafted into another tree, he is grafted into Israel and becomes a part of (but does not replace), the chosen people; the elect.  “And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree.” Romans 11:17
 
Webster’s 1828 Dictionary defines partaker[3] as the following:
 
        1. n. One who has or takes a part, share or portion in common with others; a sharer, a
              participator; usually followed by of.
                  If the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things – Rom. Xv
                      Sometimes followed by in.       
                       Wish me partaker in thy happiness –
                                                                                            Shak.
                       If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with
                       them in the blood of the prophets. Matt. Xxiii
        2. An accomplice; and associate.
                When thou sawest a thief, thou contendest with him, and hast been partaker with
                  adulterers. Ps. L.
  
When a Gentile gets saved, he a partaker with the nation of Israel, is grafted into the blessings of Jacob. The saved Gentiles do not replace Israel; they have a share, or a portion, of eternal salvation, and become a partaker of the “Olive Tree.”
 
Webster’s 1828 Dictionary defines grafted[4] as the following:
 
        Grafted, pp. Inserted on a foreign stock.
 
Brethren, before a Gentile is saved, the scriptures state that we, Gentiles, need to remember, “Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcism by that  which is called the Circumcism in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.” Ephesians 2:11 and 12 A Gentile is foreign stock, the Uncircumcism, walking in the flesh, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, strangers of the covenants, no hope and without God.
 
At the moment of salvation, the Gentiles (among many other blessings), are “grafted into” “the commonwealth of Israel.”
 
In the Bible, the Messiah, the Lord Jesus is likened to the ‘root.’ “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.” Isaiah 11:10 The Lord Jesus is the ‘root of Jesse, 'and the ‘people’ that Isaiah is referring to is  the seed of Israel, and the Gentiles are the saved Gentiles in any age. Specifically, this is referring to the Church Age. Nowhere in scripture does any saved Gentile replace the promises and the prophecies to the Jews. The Gentiles are ‘grafted’ into the house of Israel and becomes part of, but does not replace, the house of Israel, “his people.”
 
The prophet Hosea prophesied, “Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.” Hosea 1:10  The Apostle Paul quoted Hosea 1:10 in Romans 9:6
 
“And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live.”
Ezekiel 37:14
 
The prophet Ezekiel prophesied of the nation of Israel, “Thus saith the LORD God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: … Then he said unto me, Son of man,  these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. … And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I am the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.”  Ezekiel 37: 5, 11, 12 and 14
 
Even though the Jews are returning to the land of Israel, as Ezekiel states, there is no breath in them. The returning Jews, as a whole, are returning to Israel in unbelief in the Lord Jesus as the Messiah. The returning Jews are returning void of the Spirit if Life; the Holy Spirit. In his discourse on the teaching of the spiritual life in Christ to the saints, Paul states, “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” Romans 8: 9 The indwelling of the Spirit of God in the life of the believer is a doctrinal truth.
 
The prophecy of Ezekiel is still not fulfilled in the nation of Israel. The giving of the Spirit of God to the nation of Israel is still future. Since 1898, the Jews have been returning to Israel in a state of unbelief. They are, as Ezekiel prophetically points out, “…but there was no breath in them.”
 
During the Tribulation period, the 144,000 Jewish evangelists are seeing a multitude of Jews saved throughout the 7 years. During the first half of the 7 Year Tribulation Period, the two prophets in Revelation 11:3-13, are seeing Jews saved.
 
As the 7 Year Tribulation period progresses, the Jews are being saved by multitudes, they are driven back to the land of Israel, partly in belief and partly in unbelief, and as they are driven in the wilderness during the final 3 ½ years (shortened), they are finally converted, as a nation, as the Lord Jesus is revealed to them as Paul proclaimed in Romans 11:25-28
 
The prophet Isaiah prophesied of the purging of the iniquity of the Jews at the latter times in Isaiah 27:9, “By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up.”
 
When the Jews are purged of their sins, and recognize the Lord Jesus as their Messiah, the prophesy of the Valley of the Bones prophesied by Ezekiel, shall be fulfilled, “And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I am the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.” Ezekiel 37:14
 
 
The Erroneous Teaching of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Ezekiel 37:1-14
 
The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ teaching of Ezekiel 37:1-14, “The Vision of the Dry Bones,” is symbolic in nature in reference to the Jehovah’s Witnesses and is not a prophecy to the Jewish Nation of Israel.
 
In Lesson # 16, Part 1 of 2, Joel 2:21-27, I documented that the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that the two witnesses of Revelation 11:3-13, are, figuratively, the members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses who are persecuted and the published works of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization.
 
In connection with the release of eight incarcerated members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who they believe were ‘symbolically’ resurrected, and then they teach that this ‘resurrection’ is according to the prophecy of Ezekiel in Ezekiel 37: 5 and 10
 
In order to get the correct context the erroneous teaching of the Jehovah’s Witnesses pertaining to Ezekiel 37:1-14, I will need to re-quote the first half of the paragraph then I will quote the second half of the paragraph.
 
    Four days later the eight prisoners were released from the Federal penitentiary in Atlanta, Georgia, and taken on the train to New York city. The next day, March 26, 1919, the Federal Court in Brooklyn, New York, let them go free on bail. Then, indeed, “spirit of life from God” entered into the symbolic corpses of the “two witnesses,” and they became alive to the “witnessing” activity that now lay ahead of them.”[5]
 
             They no longer stayed lying inactive in the broad way of Christendom, but “they 
              stood upon their feet,” ready for God’s public service with all the means that he 
              would supply for this.  The language here used with regard to them corresponds 
              with the phraseology used in Ezekiel’s vision of the valley of the dry bones of Israel
              that were  reunited, clothed upon with flesh and made to live again. –
              Ezekiel 37:5,10.[6] 
 
The Jehovah’s Witnesses interpretation of Ezekiel 37:1-14, specifically, Ezekiel 37: 5 and 10 is erroneous.
 
I had previously documented that the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that ‘Christendom’ is anyone who are against  the Jehovah’s Witnesses, or their material, is part of the ‘wild beast’ in Revelation 13:1 and 2 Please see the study on Joel 2:21-27, Lesson # 16, part 1 of 2. The interpretation that the beast of Revelation 13:1 & 2 is anybody that is not a Jehovah’s Witness is erroneous.
 
The Erroneous Teaching of Preterism and Ezekiel 37:1-14
 
The symbolic teaching of Preterism and the interpretation of Vision of the Dry Bones in Ezekiel 37:1-14 is almost the same of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. The only difference is that the Preterist substitutes the members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses as the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37: 10 and 14 , with the church, a historical event within the Church Age, or, in the case of Hendriksen, he is not sure.
 
        The need for this protective act was great, as the rest of the vision makes clear. It 
         pictures two witnesses, possibly considered as an incarnation of Elijah and Moses,
         or perhaps typical of all in the church who are called to bear their testimony in the
         evil hour. … But this is not to be the final state of things. Even as in Ezekiel the 
         valley of dry bones came to life (37: 10, 14), God will act to resurrect the two
         witnesses and take them victoriously to heaven (11: 11-12).[7] 
 
Both the teachings of Hendriksen and the Jehovah’s witnesses miss-interpret Ezekiel 37:4 and 10 . God, through His prophet Ezekiel states that, “… these bones are the whole house of Israel,” Ezekiel 37:11
  
“… and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.”
 
The prophecy of the prophet Amos in the planting of the Jews in the land which God gave them has been unfulfilled to this day.  This prophecy of Amos was not fulfilled after the Babylonian Captivity as Amos said, “…and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.” Since the Babylonian Captivity, the Jews have been pulled up out of the land of Israel, plucked up, and scattered among the nations of the world.
 
Conclusion
 
This prophecy of Amos was not given to the church, is in no way symbolic of the church, and is not fulfilled in the Tribulation period.
 
Therefore, the only time in the scriptures that the Jews will remain in the land of Israel and not be plucked and scattered around the world is during the 1000 Year Reign of the Lord Jesus as written in Revelation 20:4-6
 
 
  [1] Larkin, Clarence The Book of Revelation, (Glenside, PA: Clarence Larkin Estate, 1919),  n. page number.
[2] “Captivity.” American Dictionary of the English Language, Noah Webster, 1828. Cincinnati, OH: C. J. Krehbiel Co, 2000.
[3] “Partaker.” American Dictionary of the English Language, Noah Webster, 1828. Cincinnati, OH: C. J. Krehbiel Co, 2000.
[4] “Grafted.” American Dictionary of the English Language, Noah Webster, 1828. Cincinnati, OH: C. J. Krehbiel Co, 2000.  
[5] Jehovah’s Witnesses, Then is Finished the Mystery of God, (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society: New York, 1969), 277.
[6] Jehovah’s Witnesses, Then is Finished the Mystery of God, (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society: New York, 1969), 277 and 278.
[7] Hendriksen, William, More than Conquerors, (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1939, 1967), 107 and 108.
 
 

Brethren,
I am in the process of writing Lesson # 17 on Amos 9:13-15. In Amos 9:14 we read of this phrase, "And I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel ..."  In the lesson, in connection with this phase, we will be looking at other passages (primarily in the Old Testament), that deal with this aspect of the nation of Israel that we do not hear much about.
In connection with the Captivity of the Nation of Israel, I thought it best if I gave an advance notice to some of the passages that I will be referring to in order to give everybody an opportunity to read, and maybe study, the passages in this light. Some of the related passages are: Joel 3:1 & 2, Ezekiel 37:1-14; 39:23-29, and 2 Chronicles 7:19-22
Since we do think much about the "... captivity of my people Israel ..." I would like to give all of you an opportunity to study the passages that I will be bringing out in order to help all of us to take part of the discussion.
Alan

I will agree that we never had anyone come to our church, or actually get saved, from our door-knocking efforts here. I suspect, in Bible days, that visiting and the basic idea of hospitality was much more common than today.
Like Orval said above, I live in a very rural area-the main part of town, if you want to call it that, is very small, maybe 500-800 people, then more live in a wider area on plots of land, like my wife and I: we live on an 80 acre farm about 4 miles out of town down 3 miles of bad road; we used to have some persistent JW's who would come by, mostly because they had been friends with my wife and she had done some Bible studies with them, and they hoped they could turn us to their way of thinking-no dice. But many here live like we do, and many have guns and prefer to be left alone. In town, pretty much everyone knows we are here and what we do. I work with many locals, and those who come, do so because I have made contact with them at work. Small town folks are suspicious folks and it can take years to get the trust of some enough that they will hear you. So we do what we can, though we are thinking about making the rounds again since it's been a while.

"And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of  a long time  lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not." 2 Peter 2:2
The Sozo Movement is another religious movement organized by the  false prophets and false teachers that the Apostle Peter warned us about in 2 Peter 2
I would suggest the brethren study 2 Peter 2 in order to know that these false teachers are in the churches trying to make filthy lucre from the saints (that are immature or new in the Lord),and anybody else who is religious and seeking an experience, or that need help in their life, and are turning to religion.
The false teachers of the Bible, translators of these new corrupt versions, and many authors of the New Age Movement, and others, are making 'merchandise' of the saints.

Four hundred years and counting and the King James Bible is still the most trusted, reliable, and unchanging English translation. Even today, after all that time, any English speaker can, with little effort, understand it and use it for their faith and practice. Today's "scholars" treat God's word and work like cars and computer programs, outdated after two years and always having bugs and needing recalls. I don't need to know were it was 400+ years ago nor do I need to waste God's time looking for the latest and greatest. As one lady, Sweet Brown (of internet repute), was noted as saying; "Ain't nobody got time for that!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUv5sOaStnU)

If you mark your Bible do this... As you read through your Bible mark or note each time you come across "I heard," "we heard," and similar phrases used in the context of salvation and similar circumstances.  It will quickly become obvious just how imperative it is to open one's mouth and actively witness.
Here are just a few examples:
Jos 2:10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.
Jos 2:11* And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.
Jos 5:1* And it came to pass, when all the kings of the Amorites, which were on the side of Jordan westward, and all the kings of the Canaanites, which were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of Jordan from before the children of Israel, until we were passed over, that their heart melted, neither was there spirit in them any more, because of the children of Israel.
Jos 9:3* And when the inhabitants of Gibeon heard what Joshua had done unto Jericho and to Ai,
Jos 9:9* And they said unto him, From a very far country thy servants are come because of the name of the LORD thy God: for we have heard the fame of him, and all that he did in Egypt,
Ac 19:5* When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Ac 13:48* And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
 

Four hundred years and counting and the King James Bible is still the most trusted, reliable, and unchanging English translation. Even today, after all that time, any English speaker can, with little effort, understand it and use it for their faith and practice. Today's "scholars" treat God's word and work like cars and computer programs, outdated after two years and always having bugs and needing recalls. I don't need to know were it was 400+ years ago nor do I need to waste God's time looking for the latest and greatest. As one lady, Sweet Brown (of internet repute), was noted as saying; "Ain't nobody got time for that!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUv5sOaStnU)

I don't necessarily disagree with you about knocking doors but I believe it is taught in the New Testament (or at least a form of it) as they were sent out two by two into the towns of Israel.  More importantly, is the fact that God blesses the proclaiming of his name, if we work if we attempt to harvest souls I believe God will bless our labor in different areas of ministry.  I work a jail ministry weekly if people do not want me to witness to them or they turn over in their bunks and pretend to be asleep I am find with that, I do not force people to hear the gospel.  But for those who want to talk I talk with them.  Same when I door knock I try to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit but if someone is adamant about not hearing I am not going to shove it down their throat.  I leave a tract if I can but more importantly I want to leave a good testimony for our church because next week they want to talk about Christ. I have heard about Alaska and believe that there are times you have to think outside the box and be creative in order to witness for Christ I suspect your area maybe one of those areas.  You may not be able to door knock but I am sure there are still ways to be an active witness.  
Thanks for the response. 

Interesting post.  I recently filled in as an interim pastor for a church about an hour from me.  Three times I approached their pulpit committee concerning setting a time for door knocking and three times I was given excuses why door knocking did not work.  I spent my last three months with these good folks trying to show them that what they had been taught was not biblical.  Sunday nights I taught on Baptist distinctives and on Sunday morning I preached on the need to be a testimony in our every day lives and to be open about our faith.  I believe their new pastor is continuing to challenge them to change as well.  The fact is we do need to set a time to witness and we need to set a place but we must also understand that for some they will not care how much we know till the know how much we care therefore life style evangelism can have its place in the process but God has still ordained speaking (preaching) the word of God to win the lost.

I have had people talk about it in terms of ONLY lifestyle evangelism without active evangelism.
That it was the only form of evangelism that they "practice".
THAT is wrong, but of course our light should out and give people cause to ask us the reason of our hope.
We should live like saved people.

I agree with HC and apologize for anything I have said or done in this thread to create confusion and add to the degradation of the thread. I also meant no indictment of 1611 in my replies to him.

Whew. This thread has been quite, um, interesting.
1611, you have been thoroughly trounced for the wrong choice of adjective - "most" should most (heh) likely have been "many", since that would not seem to indicate that the majority of IB are going soft...Please say 35 mea culpas as penance (just joking...).
I have to agree with the majority (that would be "most", right?) that using that adjective indicates that it is the majority of IB. And, since none of us has met ALL IB, we really can't say "most" definitively.
However, I have to agree with Alimentado (ok, did I spell that right? It's really good to "see" you back here, but it's been so long I FORGOT how to spell your screen name. LOL) as well.  We can certainly assume that the "most" means of those with which one is personally acquainted. As for me, I know a good number of IB churches that have gone soft (sadly, I think I could say "most" that I know have...)
I think, mayhap, that we can all agree that soft separatism is a killer. And it is invading churches (let's think about the Piper phenomenon and how his teachings have affected so many IB churches), sadly.  I don't think the churches represented on this site are  (and I think that might be at root of the upset - the word "most" would seem to imply that some of the churches represented here are going soft - whether by intent or not). I'm thankful that we have pastors that participate on this site who are determined to walk with the Lord and lead their congregations correctly. And I'm thankful that we have laymen who are determined to walk with the Lord posting here, too.
And so, let us bid adieu to this thread. 
And, by the way, this is not an indictment of 1611. He is genuinely concerned and I appreciate that.
 

I would like to know if you are going to change this statement.

The most "successful" (by that I mean that it was God working through this person) soul winner I ever saw broke every rule in the book!  God blessed him and blessed him by allowing him to lead many to Christ but his means was the most unconventional I have ever seen.  Very direct. In my view almost to the point of being offensive but he grew a church almost by himself!  It was an amazing thing to see.  He was heavily involved in an RU ministry so many of those he witnessed to needed some "direct" talk.  But he was no different when witnessing to anyone else and the response was the same.  People trusting Christ, joining the church, and serving. 
I am not advocating this "technique" or any other.... It's obvious to me that God's hand was simply on this man.

I am very passionate about personal evangelism as well, and I have wrestled with the same questions.
I've noticed that many people try to share the Gospel as a presentation instead of a conversation. When people feel like we are giving them a presentation they seem to want to just agree, and say or pray whatever it takes to get it over with. Of course, that's not always the case.
Just toward the end of last year I lead a close friend of mine to the Lord, and he even showed up at church the following Sunday. After that he never came back, and quickly went back to his friends and lifestyle like nothing ever happened. I remember feeling like I had failed my friend somehow. I eventually met with our outreach Pastor to express my frustrations and concerns to him. He reassured me that I had done my part, and that I was in no way responsible for my friends spiritual growth since he refused my offer to help guide him in discipleship.
In some cases it takes a person years to start attending church and bearing fruit after they become saved. I've seen it happen with others and that was my own personal experience as well. I was saved for almost three years before I gained a love for reading the Bible, but slowly the desire to learn the Word of God eventually came. Soon after I began a serious study of the Bible I started attending church, became a member, and today I understand what it means to be a new creation.

Welcome home! All of us appreciate your duty in the Navy and your sacrifice. We did miss you and are looking to some fine discussions.
I suspect most of us have sometime in our soul winning experienced the lack of visible results and the lack of fruit after an individual says a salvation prayer.
At times, even after we have dealt with an individual for awhile, and went past the Romans Road, and dealt with the clear issues of hell, repentance, sin and the need to true belief, we may not see much fruit.
We need to remember that it is our responsibility to adequately present the full gospel story. The salvation of the soul is between God and the individual we talk too.
Here are some of my thoughts that I tend to keep in mind.
I tend to think of the story of the Parable of the king who made a great supper (Luke 14:15-24), and, after many people refused, commanded his servants to, "... Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be full." Luke 14:23  Even though most people rejected the servants, the king still told the servants to go: the  servants simply obeyed the Kings command. My responsibility is to go.
Most of the people we deal with we spend a lot of time with. We tend to read the scriptures that we are talking about and not quote them. It does help when the individual you are dealing with actually see the words you are talking about.  
The average time limit is 45 minutes and we try to explain fully the message of salvation, a heart belief, we read the scripture where the Rich Man is hell telling folks they need to repent (Luke 16:30), and to trust in the work of Christ on Calvary (1  Cor. 15:1-6).  Most people reject what we have to say and some folks do decide to get saved but they do not come to church. But, thankfully, some folks do decide to trust in the Lord Jesus and we do see them in church.
I just want to encourage you to keep on soul-winning and spreading the seed of salvation to the lost. "In the morning sow thy seed, and in the evening withhold not thine hand: for thou knowest not whether shall prosper, either this or that, or whether they both shall be alike good." Ecclesiastes 11:6
I also tend to try and remember the real reward of soul-winning is in heaven: not in the church.
Only God in heaven above knows the results of each gospel seed that we sow. Sometimes we see the result of a changed life, most times we do not, either way: "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise." Proverbs 11:30
 
 

Brethren, let me explain why this post and this kind of claim is so offensive to me.
 
If an unsaved person comes onto this site searching for truth, and comes to this site expecting (rightly) to gain an understanding of what an independent baptist church is, and they find a statement made by IB that says "Most IB are involved somewhat with the RCC..." they will stop looking at independent baptist churches.
Because they will read this and think to themselves "If independent baptists think that most independent baptist churches are bad then why should I bother looking at any of them?"
There was no qualification, no explanation, and no restriction on the accusation.
In this situation, a searching unsaved person will not think "If most are bad then that means I have to search for a good one"; they are far more likely to think "If even the IB's think that most are bad, then I will look somewhere else entirely.".
 
And to then turn and say that it is just a warning holds no water - no one here would dispute the need for warning and protection, but this quote above is a simple, unexplained and unqualified accusation against "Most Independent baptists". It really does roll all of us into one barrel.
Read this post not as an IB but as a searching unsaved person - would it encourage or discourage you from looking further into independent baptist churches?
And if it direct you away, then were will you go to find the truth?
 
So, yes, I indeed can be fair - and that is all I ask of you also.
 
Note that I am one of the most outspoken on this site about keeping Independent Baptist churches real independent baptist churches - I do not want the warnings to stop, nor do I want to hide my head in the sand. I am independent baptist by personal study based conviction.
 
 
 

Brethren,
Since we have some new members who may not know my gratitude for David Clould, I thought that I would give one example of a post that I wrote endorsing David Clould and his material on July 15, 2016. This post is one of many that I thought highly of David Cloulds materials and ministry.
Alan

As most of those folks that know me they understand that I think very highly of David Cloud and his ministry.
On OnLine Baptist I have publicly endorsed the book, "For the Love of the Bible," by David Cloud and recommended that the brethren read David Clould books and devotions with one exception. I am not in total agreement with his book, "Why Most Independent Baptist Churches will be Emerging in 20 Years," by David Cloud 
When 1611mac said, "Even most IB are involved somewhat with the RCC through soft separatism," I took him as his word. He meant every word in my estimation. In my estimation (and I hope I am in error), 1611mac was following the words, and example, of David Cloud in his book, ""Why Most Independent Baptist Churches will be Emerging in 20 Years."
Some of the material in David Clouds book, "Why Most Independent Baptist Churches will be Emerging in 20 Years," is very good. I agree that men of God ought to read good books, be learned in current and historical events, and teach the members of the church good doctrine, to discern between good and bad music, church movements, understand the KJV manuscript issue, and other needed subjects. Most of the book I agree with.
I agree with Jim Alaska, I take exception with the statement, "most Ib." In the churches that I have started, in my home church, and to my knowledge, the vast majority of churches that support me as a missionary, they are not involved with the RCC through soft separatism, do not have CCC music, nor are there non-IFB pastors or rotten musicians, allowed in the pulpit. Nor are they following a man; they are following the Lord Jesus Christ as recorded in the scriptures.
Also, in the book, "Why Most Independent Baptist Churches will be Emerging in 20 Years," David Clould, as most folks who deride IFB churches, he  uses the usual bad examples of Hyles, Schaap, Ruckman, BBC, Highland Park, Gray, etc... In every internet websites run by those who hateful IFB internet prophets, run by disgruntled ex-IFB pastors and disgruntled (and backslid) church members;  they say the same things and give the same bad examples and then they then deceitfully say, "most,' IFB are like this false pastor and, "they are following a man," and denouce most IFB as 'practicing "quick prayerism" and "hypocrisy." The internet is full of these backslid and disgruntled theologians and would-be prophets.
Brethren, in my estimation, statements like those statements  by these disgruntled, backslid, internet theologians and would-be prophets, are false, deceitful, and miss-leading. Internet theologians, internet sites, disgruntled church members, and trolls, who claim to be former IFB pastors and lay-men, are using bad examples to try and to destroy the good works of good IFB pastors and churches.