Jim_Alaska

Well done Bro. Dave. This shows beyond doubt that works, or any combination of works and faith cannot possibly save. It also reinforces the controversy regarding how and if the OT saints were saved.
Faith was, is and always will be the vehicle to God through His salvation. It is by God's Grace that anyone is ever saved, and then only through faith.

Well done Bro. Dave. This shows beyond doubt that works, or any combination of works and faith cannot possibly save. It also reinforces the controversy regarding how and if the OT saints were saved.
Faith was, is and always will be the vehicle to God through His salvation. It is by God's Grace that anyone is ever saved, and then only through faith.

These two disciples do not meet the definition of a church Sure, they were followers, but not a church. The church began when Jesus called out his Apostles as the scripture says. 
1Cor. 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

It looks fine with me. Thank you.

Bro. Alan, I hope I did not mess anything up since i was able to edit your original work. It looks right to me, but you will have to check it on your computer.
After the last time I edited a post that was not mine and messed it up, I am reluctant to try it again.

Thank you Bro. Alan. This seems to be a subject that is only lightly touched upon. I am glad you enjoyed it and really appreciate your added comments.

Thank you for this devotion Alan, it was a blessing. I found it well done and right on the money regarding the various "types" in both individuals as well as circumstances.

Pentecost was the empowering of the already existing church. The disciples were instructed to wait for this empowering. The church was already in existence at pentecost.
The following are some scriptural evidences that the Church did not begin in the days of Abraham, or on the day of Pentecost, but rather during Christ's earthly ministry. The Church clearly existed before the day of Pentecost.

1. Jesus Christ said, "I will build my church" (Matt. 16:18) which He did during His earthly ministry.

2. The authority of disciples was placed in the church during Christ's earthly ministry (Matt. 18:15-19).

3. Jesus sang the praises of God "in the midst of the church" (Heb. 2:12; Matt. 26:30).

4. They had a commission to preach the Gospel before Pentecost (Matt. 10:5-7).

5. They had "the keys of the kingdom of heaven", and these were given to His church (Matt. 16:18-19).

6. They were baptized believers before Pentecost (Matt. 3:5-6; Jn. 4:1).

7. They had authority to baptize before Pentecost (Jn. 4:1; Matt. 28:18-20).

8. There was an ordination service before Pentecost (Mk. 3:13-14).

9. There were apostles before Pentecost; and the office of apostle was a church office (Eph. 4:11; I Cor. 12:28; Lk. 6:12-13).

10. They had a church roll of 120 members before Pentecost (Acts 1:15).

11. They had the Great Commission before Pentecost (Matt. 28:18-20).

12. About 3000 were added unto His church roll on the day of Pentecost; You cannot add to something that does not already exist Acts 2:41).

13. They had a business meeting before Pentecost (Acts 1:23-26).

14. They had a church treasurer before Pentecost (Jn. 13:29).

15. The ordinance of the Lord's Supper was instituted and observed before Pentecost (Matt. 26:26-30).

 

"... that he went into a mountain to pray and continued all night in prayer to God. And when it was day he called unto him his disciples and of them he chose twelve whom he named apostles. --- Luke 6:12-13.

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles. --- I Corinthians 12:28.

Brother "Wretched,"
As I have indicated before in relation to this disagreement between us, I believe that you have a wrong premise in this matter of doctrine -- in that you view the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit as being inseparably joined together.
Certainly, John 14:13-19, 25-26; John 15:25-27; and John 16:7-16 all speak concerning the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit.  As such, they speak concerning the comforting work, the relational work (of spiritual fellowship with the Father and the Son), the teaching work, the testifying work, the empowering work (for faithful witnessing), the guiding work, and the glorifying work which is involved in the Holy Spirit's indwelling work.  However, none of these passages specifically references the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.  Rather, the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit is specifically referenced in John 3:3-21, wherein the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit is not at all referenced. 
Therefore, all of the differences between us on this matter flow out of the difference in this premise -- whether the regenerating work and indwelling work of the Holy Spirit are inseparably joined, or whether the regenerating work and indwelling work of the Holy Spirit are distinctly different. 
(Note: Although I believe that the regenerating work and indwelling work of the Holy Spirit are distinctly different, I do recognize that for the church age since the day of Pentecost the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit does indeed initiate the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit for the New Testament believer.  However, because I believe that the regenerating work and indwelling work of the Holy Spirit are distinctly different, I can further believe that Old Testament believers were indeed regenerated by the work of the Holy Spirit without ever receiving the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit at all, and that this could also be true for the Lord's disciples before the day of Pentecost.)
Concerning Luke 22:31-35, I have also indicated before in relation to this disagreement between us my belief that you have a wrong premise concerning the Biblical usage for the word "convert."  You appear to believe that the word "convert" is only used Biblically for the work of eternal salvation.  However, I have contended in the past that the word "convert" simply means to turn back from a wrong path, and that it is used Biblically both in relation to unbelievers coming to eternal salvation through repentance and faith and in relation to believers coming to restored fellowship through repentance and faith.
In James 5:19-20 God's Word uses the word "covert" in relation to a believer, saying, "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."  Herein the one who needs to be converted is one who has erred "from the truth."  Furthermore, this one who has erred "from the truth" is defined as one of those whom James calls "brethren."  James is speaking to fellow believers concerning one of them as believers erring "from the truth" and needing to be converted (turned) back "from the error of his way" unto a restored walk in the way of truth.  (As such, James 5:19-20 would be speaking concerning the same need as Galatians 6:1.)  Finally, if a fellow believer is able to convert the sinning believer "from the error of his way," then that believer will have saved the sinning believer, not from the judgment of hell, but from the Lord's chastening unto death; and thereby he shall "hide a multitude of sins" from occurring in the sinning believer's life by turning him back from the way of sin and thus preventing him from further engagement in sin.
Brother "Wretched," concerning your indication that there is no point in arguing, you are correct that neither of us will move from our doctrinal position in this matter until one or the other of us changes on the points of doctrinal premise.  However, for the sake of the audience, I still believe that there may be a need for a Biblical presentation to combat what I believe is false doctrine on your part (just as I expect that you might choose to do in relation to what you believe is false doctrine on my part).

Wretched,
I have to wonder just what kind of Independent Baptist Church you attend. Independent Baptists have, always denied the existence of a universal church.
I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth; I have never believed in a universal church, no such church is mentioned in Scripture.
You deny almost every point I made, but provide no scripture to back your claims.
Two or three gathered together is not a church. Jesus did promise to be in their midst, but this is not teaching that they were a church. You and I can gather together for something such as prayer or soul winning, this does not make us a church. We would even be from different churches, so this is not (A) church.
I stand by every point in my devotion and have taught this for almost forty years in different Independent Baptist Churches.

As has occurred in past discussions between Brother "Wretched" and myself, I am compelled to disagree with his position that the apostles were not regenerated until the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
In John 17 our Lord Jesus Christ delivered a prayer unto the Father on the night before His crucifixion.  Within that prayer in John 17:14-16, our Lord made the following statement concerning His disciples, "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."  Twice in this passage our Lord declared that His disciples were not of (that is -- out of as a source) this world in the same manner as He Himself was not of this world.
So then, in what manner was our Lord Jesus Christ not out of this world?  We find the answer in John 8:23-24, 39-47.  In this passage our Lord Jesus Christ engaged in a discussion of rebuke against the Pharisees and scribes.  In John 8:23 He declared in rebuke unto them, "Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."  Herein our Lord delivered two parallel statements of contrast.  Against the Pharisees and scribes, He proclaimed that they were "from beneath" and that they were "of this world."  As such, we can conclude that to be "of this world" means also to be "from beneath."  However, in contrast our Lord proclaimed that He Himself was "from above" and "not of this world."  As such, we can conclude that to be "not of the world" just as our Lord was "not of the world" means to be "from above" instead.  Even so, since the disciples were "not of the world" as the Lord was "not of the world," they were instead "from above" as He was "from above."  So then, what is the only way for a lost sinner to be "from above"?  Answer -- to be "born of God," to be "born again."
Furthermore, in John 8:42 our Lord Jesus Christ declared in rebuke against the Pharisees and scribes, "If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."  As such, we can further conclude that to be "of this world" means, not only to be "from beneath," but also to not possess God as one's heavenly Father.  Again in the opening portion of John 8:44, our Lord Jesus Christ declared in rebuke against them, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do."  As such, we can further conclude that to be "of this world" means to be "from beneath," to not possess God as one's heavenly Father, but to possess the devil as one's spiritual father.  Finally, in John 8:47 our Lord Jesus Christ declared in rebuke against them, "He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."  As such, we can further conclude that to be "of this world" is to not be "of God."
Yet our Lord Jesus Christ was "not of this world," but was "from above" (as per His declaration in John 8:23).  Even so, He was the spiritual opposite of these Pharisees and scribes against which He was delivering His rebuke.  He was indeed "of God," and God the Father was indeed His heavenly Father.  In like manner, His disciples, who were "not of the world" just as He was "not of the world," must also have been indeed "of God" with God the Father as their heavenly Father.  So then again, what is the only way for a lost sinner to be "of God" with God the Father as his or her heavenly Father?  Answer -- to be "born of God," to be "born again."  In fact, to deny that they were "born of God" is to deny every occasion wherein our Lord Jesus Christ referred to the Father as their heavenly Father.

Hmmm -
Great Commission was given before Pentecost. (Matt 28:18-20)
Lord's supper was established before Pentecost. (Matt 26:26-29)
Church discipline was established before Pentecost. (Matt 18:15-17)
Are these all church things, or things applicable to ONLY believers and not the church at all?
Church discipline is something that happens WITHIN a church - what would be the point to Jesus giving this instruction if there was no way to apply it? Seems a bit random....
Is the Lord's Supper a church ordinance or an ordinance to be done by any believer outside of the church?
Great Commission? Teach (people to become a follower of Christ), Baptise(?), then teach them how to honour the Lord and live for Him.
Anyone can show someone how to be saved - fair enough.
Who has the authority to baptise? Anyone, or a (local) church? Is baptism a church ordinance or is it not?
Who is equipped to teach others? Do we see this sort of teaching anywhere else?
2Ti 2:2  And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
All of these things are Church ordinances and commands, and ALL WERE GIVEN BEFORE PENTENCOST.
Why so much instruction about how a church works and what a church should do, if there was no such thing in existence?
And why do we not see the disciples question the Lord about "This church thing that you speak of"? Maybe because they knew exactly what a church was.
And to say because they had no place to call home they couldn't be a church is a bit silly.
The church that I used to attend a few years ago met for one service in a high school, another service in a primary school about 10 miles away in a different town, and sometimes in people's houses because other places were not available - were we only as church when we could use our regular venue?
I had always thought that a church was defined by being a group of saved people who were joined together by baptism to serve and honour the Lord in an organised fashion.
Normally (but not always) that group had a Pastor, and an organised structure and service.
Well, the 12 had a Pastor (Jesus), they had an organised structure (Judas was the treasurer), they were all as far as we can tell baptised, and they were joined together to serve and honour the Lord. They didn't have a building, but so what?
How is this not a church by anyone's standard? That it is not specifically NAMED as a church is somewhat irrelevant - it has all the attributes of a church.
And there was much specific instruction and command given to that church.
If the church started at Pentecost, then baptism, the Lord's supper, and church discipline ALL were not given to the church, and all are not under the authority of the church, simply because when these were established or commanded the church (by that estimation) was not in existence to receive such.
Universal church? Not in the Bible. The Lord talks about "all saints", the "household of God" and a few other terms that include every saved person regardless of where they are, but the term "church" is never clearly applied to that group.
But to say that Jim is talking universal because he believes in a church without a building?????? Nonsense.
(This was meant to be a short statement, but it grew....... )
 

Pentecost was the empowering of the already existing church. The disciples were instructed to wait for this empowering. The church was already in existence at pentecost.
The following are some scriptural evidences that the Church did not begin in the days of Abraham, or on the day of Pentecost, but rather during Christ's earthly ministry. The Church clearly existed before the day of Pentecost.

1. Jesus Christ said, "I will build my church" (Matt. 16:18) which He did during His earthly ministry.

2. The authority of disciples was placed in the church during Christ's earthly ministry (Matt. 18:15-19).

3. Jesus sang the praises of God "in the midst of the church" (Heb. 2:12; Matt. 26:30).

4. They had a commission to preach the Gospel before Pentecost (Matt. 10:5-7).

5. They had "the keys of the kingdom of heaven", and these were given to His church (Matt. 16:18-19).

6. They were baptized believers before Pentecost (Matt. 3:5-6; Jn. 4:1).

7. They had authority to baptize before Pentecost (Jn. 4:1; Matt. 28:18-20).

8. There was an ordination service before Pentecost (Mk. 3:13-14).

9. There were apostles before Pentecost; and the office of apostle was a church office (Eph. 4:11; I Cor. 12:28; Lk. 6:12-13).

10. They had a church roll of 120 members before Pentecost (Acts 1:15).

11. They had the Great Commission before Pentecost (Matt. 28:18-20).

12. About 3000 were added unto His church roll on the day of Pentecost; You cannot add to something that does not already exist Acts 2:41).

13. They had a business meeting before Pentecost (Acts 1:23-26).

14. They had a church treasurer before Pentecost (Jn. 13:29).

15. The ordinance of the Lord's Supper was instituted and observed before Pentecost (Matt. 26:26-30).

 

"... that he went into a mountain to pray and continued all night in prayer to God. And when it was day he called unto him his disciples and of them he chose twelve whom he named apostles. --- Luke 6:12-13.

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles. --- I Corinthians 12:28.

Wretched misses all the actions taken by the members of the First Baptist Church of Jerusalem, they were fully set up and functional and even voted in a new member before Pentecost.  
Ruckmanites believe in the universal, invisible church.  Wretched's is wrong again and the church was already in existence when the Lord talked about Peter, the rock and the building of his church.  Jesus said HE would build the church, and he did so during his earthly ministry.  Pentecost was just the Holy Ghost empowering the church as He did with the tabernacle and temple.  It's not that complicated folks.

These two disciples do not meet the definition of a church Sure, they were followers, but not a church. The church began when Jesus called out his Apostles as the scripture says. 
1Cor. 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

I agree Alan. I think that  1 Corinthians 12:28  is foundational to understanding when the church began. I'm glad you liked the short study.

Bro. Mike, your church may be small, but when I came to preach for you it was very evident that the few that you had were attentive and interested in Spiritual things. Small towns tend to produce small churches since there are not many people to draw from, but I am sure you know that by now. Keep up the good work brother and know that your rewards will be proportionate to your efforts, which efforts are commendable in your little section of the country.
God bless you as you serve Him.

Bro. Alan,
You are to be commended for not correcting my misspelling/pronouncement of my friend's name. I only thought of this after I wrote about it. I spelled his name the way it is pronounced and actually the reverse from Chinese culture. It should have read Wu Cheng.
At least I did remember that part of our Chinese language lessons. Family name first, personal name second. 

Alan,
When I still lived and worked in Alaska I had the privilege to meet and work with a Chinese man who became a good friend. We both worked for a scientific research facility. He was a Plasma and Atomic scientist from Beijing. His name was Chung Wu.
He did not speak english well and we quickly made a deal for me to teach him English and him to teach me Chinese. The result was 50/50 he learned English and I did not learn Chinese. lol I still retain three words of Chinese, but that's about it, it is a difficult language to learn, at least for me.
He had never driven a motor vehicle, only rode a bike in China. So I also taught him to drive, which made him very happy.
We became fast friends with me inviting him to dinner at my house where we usually had language lessons after dinner. When he learned that I attended church he became interested and began to attend with me. We had many opportunities to talk about The Lord in private also. I believe he came to know The Lord at that time. He never actually gave a testimony to that fact, but he did show evidence of being saved in that he developed a burning desire to take his newfound Christianity back home to his people when he returned home. We had many private Bible studies together.
Unfortunately shortly after he had to return to Beijing he passed away. I believe he is now with The Lord. He was a dear friend and I sorely miss him, but rejoice in his conversion and enthusiasm for spiritual things. I thank The Lord often for putting Chung Wu in my life and the opportunities we shared.

Bro. Alan,
You are to be commended for not correcting my misspelling/pronouncement of my friend's name. I only thought of this after I wrote about it. I spelled his name the way it is pronounced and actually the reverse from Chinese culture. It should have read Wu Cheng.
At least I did remember that part of our Chinese language lessons. Family name first, personal name second. 

Bro. Mike, your church may be small, but when I came to preach for you it was very evident that the few that you had were attentive and interested in Spiritual things. Small towns tend to produce small churches since there are not many people to draw from, but I am sure you know that by now. Keep up the good work brother and know that your rewards will be proportionate to your efforts, which efforts are commendable in your little section of the country.
God bless you as you serve Him.

Bro. Mike, your church may be small, but when I came to preach for you it was very evident that the few that you had were attentive and interested in Spiritual things. Small towns tend to produce small churches since there are not many people to draw from, but I am sure you know that by now. Keep up the good work brother and know that your rewards will be proportionate to your efforts, which efforts are commendable in your little section of the country.
God bless you as you serve Him.

Alan,
When I still lived and worked in Alaska I had the privilege to meet and work with a Chinese man who became a good friend. We both worked for a scientific research facility. He was a Plasma and Atomic scientist from Beijing. His name was Chung Wu.
He did not speak english well and we quickly made a deal for me to teach him English and him to teach me Chinese. The result was 50/50 he learned English and I did not learn Chinese. lol I still retain three words of Chinese, but that's about it, it is a difficult language to learn, at least for me.
He had never driven a motor vehicle, only rode a bike in China. So I also taught him to drive, which made him very happy.
We became fast friends with me inviting him to dinner at my house where we usually had language lessons after dinner. When he learned that I attended church he became interested and began to attend with me. We had many opportunities to talk about The Lord in private also. I believe he came to know The Lord at that time. He never actually gave a testimony to that fact, but he did show evidence of being saved in that he developed a burning desire to take his newfound Christianity back home to his people when he returned home. We had many private Bible studies together.
Unfortunately shortly after he had to return to Beijing he passed away. I believe he is now with The Lord. He was a dear friend and I sorely miss him, but rejoice in his conversion and enthusiasm for spiritual things. I thank The Lord often for putting Chung Wu in my life and the opportunities we shared.

Very timely and well done Alan. I especially liked the way you addressed the time factor in church building. Many times supporting churches get discouraged because they don't see a mission work organized into a NT church in the time frame they think it should be.
The result of this kind of thinking is that the supporting churches begin to pull their support of the missionary, virtually guaranteeing failure to bring the work to fruition.
My original church, where I was saved, started as a mission work. When the work was not formally organized in five years we began to hear complaints. It was interesting that many of the complaints came from churches that had not supported the work.
Our missionary pastor was a teaching pastor who knew the value of teaching grounding principals to his flock. Eventually this mission was organized into a solid, strong, NT church. We put home missionaries on four different mission fields in the time I was there. One mission field was especially difficult, it was far east Magadan Russia.
We were the first church to put Independent Baptist missionaries in Russia when the wall came down. The work was difficult and even dangerous with many obstacles to overcome. Two NT churches were organized there and still stand to  this day. The two missionary pastors from our church that went over there are now back home and pastoring home churches in Alaska.
Keep up the good work Alan and know that missionaries like you are appreciated. Prayer for our missionaries has never been more important than it is now.
 Joh 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. 

Jim,
Thank you very much for the kind words and encouragement. We appreciate them very much. "A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver." Proverbs 25:11
It is a blessing to all of us in relating that your church that you were saved in was a mission work. That speaks volumes of the missionary pastor and the folks who had a hand in starting it. I am sure in eternity there will be a lot of shouting when we hear the whole story.
A new church plant with four missionaires! It took real courage for those early missionaires to go to Russia and stick it out. It is very encouraging to all of us in knowing that there are two good IFB works going strong.
God bless all of you!  
Alan