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Winman

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  1. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from prophet1 in How Old Is The Earth   
    Gen 1:31 refutes the Gap Theory. 
     
    Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
     
    On the sixth day God looked and saw "every thing" he had made, and behold, it was "very good". Satan and the fallen angels had not rebelled against God yet, so it is impossible there was a gap with rebellion and death between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. 
     
    Oops. 
  2. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from Miss Daisy in John Calvin Had It All Wrong   
    I put this to Winman back near the beginning of this thread when he was arguing (as he maintains) that if God only died for an elect few then it is impossible to know that one is saved. At the time I argued that whether salvation is offered to all or a few is irrelevent to individual knowledge of salvation given that both Calvinists and non-Calvinists maintain that the evidence of salvation for the individual is what's seen 'at this end' as it were, i.e. what one sees and hears, what one confesses to, what they believe in, and what happens to them. Calvinists, like non-Calvinists, believe that true believers will show fruits of salvation.

    (As far as I can see the only people who can say that the offer of salvation to all is in itself evidence that a given individual is saved are universalists, because they believe that Jesus dying on the cross means all will be saved.)

    Winman responded to my argument by saying yes but Calvinists can't rely on the fruits of salvation because Calvin teaches 'evanescent grace', which is the idea that God engineers it so that the unsaved can appear to be saved, both to themselves and to others, meaning that according to Calvinism we can't tell the difference between real and fake salvation.

    I didn't have time to respond to Winman at the time, but since this bit of the debate has popped up again I'll do it now.

    I don't see how 'evanescent grace' supports the argument that Calvinists can't believe they are saved because of limited atonement, since it has nothing to do with limited atonement. It's actually a completely different argument for why Calvinists apparently can't know they are saved. This is demonstrated by the fact that if Calvinists didn't believe in limited atonement but did believe in evanescent grace, the argument that they couldn't know they were saved because of evanescent grace would be unaffected.

    So what about 'evanescent grace' itself then? Well, if a Calvinist does believe in it then I can see how that would lead them to ask 'how do I know whether my salvation experience was real or fake'?

    Thing is, non-Calvinists say pretty much the same thing. They don't attribute authorship of 'fake salvation' to God but they do maintain that you can think you're saved and appear to show fruit when actually you're not saved, so the effect on the individual is equivalent.
     
    There are two reasons why Calvinists cannot know they are elect. First, if you believe in Limited Atonement, you cannot positively know Jesus died for you. 
     
    If you asked a Calvinist, "Did Jesus die for you?", they will say YES. I would then ask, "How do you know?" The only answer they have is, "Because I believe"
     
    That is not proof that Jesus died for you, folks believe false things all the time. Like I said, you can believe a gun is empty and put it to your head and pull the trigger, and you will kill yourself. This is in fact how the famous guitarist for the band Chicago died. He put a gun to his head, and a friend said, "Be careful". He said, "Don't worry, it's not loaded!". He then pulled the trigger and killed himself instantly. If Jesus did not die for everybody, you have no possible way to know he died for you, that is impossible. Just because you believe it does not make it true. 
     
    And if Calvin was correct, you cannot even know if your faith is real. Calvinists are taught that unregenerated men cannot believe, and that they cannot even understand spritual matters. How in the world can they know what faith is? To complicate this, Calvin taught that God deceives many persons with an "evanescent faith" that seems so real that the person is deceived. Now how in the world can you know if your faith is real if this is true? 
     
    Calvinism is designed to make people doubt, not believe. And it is a fact that Calvinists doubt their salvation more than any other Christian groups. That is a FACT. 
     
    Here is what a well known Calvinist wrote on his blog concerning Calvinism and assurance of salvation:
     
     
     
     
    http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2013/05/doubting-calvinists/
     
    See for yourself, google "how can I know I am elect?" and you will see dozens of Calvinists who are not certain they are elect. And if Limited Atonement is true, they are correct, there is no way to know if Jesus really died for them, or if their faith is even real. 
     
    It's tragic. 
  3. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from Miss Daisy in John Calvin Had It All Wrong   
    No 5 point Calvinist can know they are elect. If Limited Atonement is true, then Christ did not die for the vast majority of people. Their sins have NOT been paid for. It doesn't matter what these persons believe. They can believe Jesus died for them, but if he did not, their faith is vain, and they shall perish in their sins. 
     
    Your faith does not determine reality. Paul himself shows this in 1 Corinthians chapter 15;
     
    1 Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.   Do you understand what Paul is teaching here? Paul is saying that if Jesus did not in reality rise from the dead, then even if you believe Jesus rose from the dead your faith is vain, and you will die in your sins.    Likewise, if Jesus did not die for you personally, the fact that you have convinced yourself he did will not save you. He either died for you or he didn't, your faith does not determine reality.    You could believe a pistol is empty and put it to your head and pull the trigger, if it is loaded it will blow your head off.    No 5 point Calvinist can possibly know for a certainty they are elect. Ask them who the elect are, they will tell you they don't know. But then they contradict themselves and claim they know they are elect. That is impossible, they cannot know that either.    Just because they have convinced themselves they are elect does not make it so. 
  4. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from Miss Daisy in John Calvin Had It All Wrong   
    Believing does not guarantee he is one of the elect. Calvin taught that God often deceives the non-elect with an "evanescent grace" that completely deceives them. They believe and feel they are true believers but are not. 
     
    And if Limited Atonement is true, then no man can know for a certainty he is one of the elect. If Jesus did not die for you personally, your faith is completely vain and will not save you. 
  5. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from Miss Daisy in John Calvin Had It All Wrong   
    You do not know if you are elect, it is impossible for anyone who believes in Limited Atonement to know if they are elect, even if they believe. If Jesus did not die for you personally, then it does not matter if you believe on him, your faith is vain. 
     
    The only person who can know they are saved is someone who knows for a certainty that Jesus died for him personally, and that he has trusted this work of Jesus on his behalf to save him. 
     
    You can't possibly know that. 
  6. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from Miss Daisy in John Calvin Had It All Wrong   
    I find it quite revealing that you feel a need to validate yourself. 
  7. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from MatthewDiscipleOfGod in John Calvin Had It All Wrong   
    I find it quite revealing that you feel a need to validate yourself. 
  8. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from Standing Firm In Christ in How Old Is The Earth   
    Gen 1:31 refutes the Gap Theory. 
     
    Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
     
    On the sixth day God looked and saw "every thing" he had made, and behold, it was "very good". Satan and the fallen angels had not rebelled against God yet, so it is impossible there was a gap with rebellion and death between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. 
     
    Oops. 
  9. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from mkrishna in John Calvin Had It All Wrong   
    Jesus saying he died for the sheep does not mean he did not die for all men. 
     
    If I say I love my children, does that mean I hate all other children?
     
    This is reading Calvinism into scripture when it is not there. 
  10. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from Miss Daisy in John Calvin Had It All Wrong   
    Jesus saying he died for the sheep does not mean he did not die for all men. 
     
    If I say I love my children, does that mean I hate all other children?
     
    This is reading Calvinism into scripture when it is not there. 
  11. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from heartstrings in John Calvin Had It All Wrong   
    If Jesus did not die for all men, you have no way to know Jesus died for you. 
  12. Thanks
    Winman reacted to MatthewDiscipleOfGod in John Calvin Had It All Wrong   
    I normally would just send a PM but I would like to thank DaveW, Winman and others for speaking out against Calvinism. It is finding it's way into our churches and schools. We need to speak out boldly against these false teachings and not allow it to get it's foot in the door.
  13. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from Miss Daisy in John Calvin Had It All Wrong   
    Calvinism is founded on deception. Calvinist preachers will declare to unbelievers that Jesus died for "sinners", for the purpose of giving that person the false impression Jesus died for them personally, when the Calvinist preacher has no way to know if Jesus died for that person or not. Calvinists constantly play word games with people like this. 
     
    If a Calvinist preacher was honest, he would tell people that Jesus only died for "some" sinners, and that he has no idea who those persons are. His listeners MIGHT be one of the fortunate people Jesus died for, but the higher prOBability is that they are not. 
     
    And if a Calvinist preacher was REALLY forthcoming, he would tell you he is not even sure he is one of the fortunate elect. He thinks he is because he believes NOW, but he must endure and persevere to his last breath to know for sure. Even then he cannot know if his works were good enough to qualify him as a true believer. 
     
    Truth is, a Calvinist cannot even know if he believes. A Calvinist is taught that an unregenerate person cannot understand or perform anything spiritual, so he has no idea what REAL saving belief is. Spiritual matters are all a big mystery to the Calvinist. Do I really believe? Who knows? How can I know?
     
    Calvinism is designed to cause a person to doubt, not believe. 
  14. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from MatthewDiscipleOfGod in John Calvin Had It All Wrong   
    Calvinism is founded on deception. Calvinist preachers will declare to unbelievers that Jesus died for "sinners", for the purpose of giving that person the false impression Jesus died for them personally, when the Calvinist preacher has no way to know if Jesus died for that person or not. Calvinists constantly play word games with people like this. 
     
    If a Calvinist preacher was honest, he would tell people that Jesus only died for "some" sinners, and that he has no idea who those persons are. His listeners MIGHT be one of the fortunate people Jesus died for, but the higher prOBability is that they are not. 
     
    And if a Calvinist preacher was REALLY forthcoming, he would tell you he is not even sure he is one of the fortunate elect. He thinks he is because he believes NOW, but he must endure and persevere to his last breath to know for sure. Even then he cannot know if his works were good enough to qualify him as a true believer. 
     
    Truth is, a Calvinist cannot even know if he believes. A Calvinist is taught that an unregenerate person cannot understand or perform anything spiritual, so he has no idea what REAL saving belief is. Spiritual matters are all a big mystery to the Calvinist. Do I really believe? Who knows? How can I know?
     
    Calvinism is designed to cause a person to doubt, not believe. 
  15. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from Miss Daisy in One God, Three Persons, Co-Equal   
    You will change your mind in time. 
    Sometime when we both have time I will present scripture that will prove it to you. 
  16. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from Miss Daisy in Original Sin/the Sin Nature   
    No one considers it a sin when a dog barks. if a dog did not bark, you would think something is wrong with that dog, not right. 
     
    Likewise, when we sin, it is considered wrong. You feel guilty for it. We all expect each other to do right. 
     
    Sin is not natural for us, it is unnatural. 
  17. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from Miss Daisy in Original Sin/the Sin Nature   
    The fact is, scripture teaches that Jesus had the same nature as us. 
     
    Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.   Most people believe the sin nature resides in the flesh. If so, then Jesus would have had a sin nature, because he took part of "the same" flesh and blood as us.    Jesus also took upon himself the "nature" of "the seed of Abraham". So, if Abraham and his seed were born with a sinful nature, then so was Jesus.    Jesus was made like his brethren the Jews in "all things". If the Jews were born with a sin nature, then so was Jesus.    Jesus did not have a sin nature, and neither did we at first. We were made upright, but all of us became sinful when we chose to sin. 
  18. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from Miss Daisy in Original Sin/the Sin Nature   
    The fact that we all sin does not prove we are born with a sin nature. Adam and Eve were created "very good", yet they sinned the first time they were tempted. 
     
    Satan was perfect in his ways when he was created (as well as the fallen angels), yet they chose to sin. 
     
    Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
     
    People ASSUME because all men choose to sin that this proves we are born with a sin nature, but scripture PROVES this view false. The fact that we sin DOES NOT prove we are born with a sin nature, only that we have free will. 
     
    In fact, scripture says God made man UPRIGHT. 
     
    Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
     
    Ecc 7:29 refutes Original Sin as it says God made men upright. The word "they" points back to the word "man" and shows this verse is speaking of all men, not Adam alone. The word "many" shows that men fall because of personal sin and not the single sin Adam committed in the garden. 
     
    There is MUCH more, but this will do for a start. 
  19. Thanks
    Winman reacted to Jordan Kurecki in One God, Three Persons, Co-Equal   
    I've been taking heat ever since I got saved.
     
    I have the most conservative music stance out of any Baptist I know and it gets me heat all the time.
     
    of course being KJO as well.
  20. Thanks
    Winman reacted to heartstrings in John Calvin Had It All Wrong   
    "It would not be possible for me too earnestly to press upon
    you the importance of reading the expositions of that prince among men,
    JOHN CALVIN!"-- Charles Haddon Spurgeon
     
    "The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine
    preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else
    be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of
    no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's
    gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder
    through England again."-- Charles Haddon Spurgeon
     
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else." -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon
     
    (speaking of "TULIP"), "We look upon them as being five
    great lamps which help to irradiate the cross, or rather five bright
    emanations springing from the glorious covenant of our Triune God, and
    illustrating the great doctrine of Jesus crucified. Against all comers,
    especially against all lovers of Arminianism, we defend and maintain pure
    gospel truth." -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon
     
    " I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else.   -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon
     
    "Once again, if it was Christ's intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed, for we have His own testimony that there is a lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, and into that pit of woe have been cast some of the very persons who, according to the theory of universal redemption, were bought with His blood. That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Saviour died for men who were or are in hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain."  -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon
     
    But he also said...
    "Our conformity to Christ is the sacred OBject of predestination."  -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon
     
     
    I don't care if Spurgeon was called "the prince of preachers", or how many thousand 'converts' he had; Billy Graham has a multitude of 'converts' and followers too, but he's still a heretic. When I got saved, Spurgeon was nowhere near but Jesus was in the house. I distinctly heard the "voice" of Psalm 29, via the scripture of Psalm 23. and WILLINGLY I opened up my everlasting door and the King of Glory came in. The Bible tells us not to follow, or put our trust in men. I "need not that any man teach" me, even Spurgeon.
  21. Thanks
    Winman reacted to DaveW in John Calvin Had It All Wrong   
    Universal redemption is not what is at issue here.
    Jesus dying for all men is only universal redemption in Calvin's twisted theology.

    I certainly don't believe in universal redemption, but I believe that Jesus died For the whole world.
    That doesn't mean the whole world is saved, but that the whole really does have the opportunity to be saved.

    The salvation you preach is based on the election of God not on the blood of Christ. It is not a free gift offered to all men, but an imposition upon some men only.

    You have answered the question asked in your twisted way, but the translation into simple language is "No".
    You can not in your theology preach to all men that they can be saved.

    Thanks for making your position clear finally, although I doubt that you meant to reveal as much as you have.
  22. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from MatthewDiscipleOfGod in John Calvin Had It All Wrong   
    You don't preach the gospel to believers, you preach the gospel to unbelievers so they might believe. 
     
    Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
     
    What would be the purpose of preaching the gospel to someone who already believes? It would accomplish nothing. 
     
    Paul told unbelievers that Jesus died for "our" sins so they MIGHT believe. 
     
    But you can't do that. 
     
    You are correct, it is not the same gospel. 
  23. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from MountainChristian in One God, Three Persons, Co-Equal   
    Well, the verses I provided showed a normal man could perform miracles through the assistance of the Holy Spirit, and that is how I believe Jesus performed his miracles. He never performed any miracles until after the Holy Spirit descended upon him.
     
    Jhn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
     
    This was just a few days after Jesus was baptized and the Spirit descended upon him, This was the "beginning" of miracles he performed. He never performed a miracle before the Holy Ghost descended upon him. 
     
    I agree that Jesus knew Lazarus was dead, but Jesus also said, I am glad for your sakes that "I was not there". He was not omnipresent as a man. 
     
    And concerning his return Jesus said that of that day and hour knoweth "no man". As a man he was not omniscient. 
     
    These are things beyond our comprehension, nevertheless we should believe what the scriptures say. 
  24. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from Miss Daisy in John Calvin Had It All Wrong   
    I wasn't there to hear them preach, so I cannot answer that question. 
     
    Many Calvinists will say things like, "Jesus died for sinners", but this is only a half truth as it implies Jesus died for all sinners which 5 point Calvinists do not believe. If they were consistent with their view they could only say that Jesus died for "some" sinners, or that Jesus only died for "particular" sinners. 
     
    A half truth is a whole lie. 
  25. Thanks
    Winman got a reaction from John81 in One God, Three Persons, Co-Equal   
    Well, the verses I provided showed a normal man could perform miracles through the assistance of the Holy Spirit, and that is how I believe Jesus performed his miracles. He never performed any miracles until after the Holy Spirit descended upon him.
     
    Jhn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
     
    This was just a few days after Jesus was baptized and the Spirit descended upon him, This was the "beginning" of miracles he performed. He never performed a miracle before the Holy Ghost descended upon him. 
     
    I agree that Jesus knew Lazarus was dead, but Jesus also said, I am glad for your sakes that "I was not there". He was not omnipresent as a man. 
     
    And concerning his return Jesus said that of that day and hour knoweth "no man". As a man he was not omniscient. 
     
    These are things beyond our comprehension, nevertheless we should believe what the scriptures say. 
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