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Everything posted by Winman

  1. Yes, but in most gatherings unbelievers are present. In any case Paul was not there preaching, (in 1 Cor.) but reminding the Corinthian Christians the essentials of the Gospel, particularly the importance of the resurrection. In the early church there was a lot of confusion about the Gospel, as is clear from Acts (e.g. 15) & from the epistles. Peter didn't take your attitude Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 2 Peter 1:12-15 What a bunch of baloney. The purpose of preaching the gospel is so that unbelievers can hear it and believe and be saved. (Jhn 20:31) Yes, it is good for believers to hear the gospel again on occasion so that they stay sure in sound doctrine, but that is not the primary purpose of the gospel. I do preach that Jesus died for OUR sins, so that unbelievers present may respond with confidence in Jesus' atoning sacrifice. If they reject the Gospel at that time, they still know that when they come to Jesus in repentance, their sins will be forgiven. Yes, but you are only speaking to believers. Do you make sure to mention to the unbelievers that you are not sure if Jesus died for their sins or not? You don't want to be misleading do you? You don't want unbelievers to get the impression you are telling them Jesus assuredly died for THEIR sins do you? That wouldn't be completely honest would it? And if you were completely honest and told the unbelievers that you cannot say whether Jesus died for them personally, do you think they could respond in "confidence" to Jesus's atoning sacrifice? I would be absolutely offended if someone preached to me like this. You Calvinists must believe people are stupid. I cannot preach universal redemption. I do NOT believe that Jesus died for the sins of Judas, or Hitler, or Mohammed, etc. I DO believe that had they repented, they would have been forgiven through the blood of Jesus who died for them. Jesus' atoning sacrifice was sufficient for all mankind. However, it was specifically for the redeemed. Election excludes NO-ONE from the Gospel call, nor the command to repent, nor the personal guilt in refusing to repent. Nor does it give the Calvinist an excuse for not preaching the Gospel. Preaching is God's means of calling the elect to salvation. Your view is nonsensical. Just because you believe something does not make it true. You could believe a gun is unloaded and put it to your head and pull the trigger, and if it is loaded it will blow your brains out no matter what you believe. If Jesus did not die for you personally, it doesn't matter if you believe he did, your faith is vain and you will perish in your sins. Paul showed this concept in 1 Corinthians 15; 1 Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Paul shows here that your personal belief does not determine reality. You might believe that Jesus rose from the dead, but if Jesus did not rise from the dead our faith is vain and we will all die in our sins. Why? Because Jesus had to ascend to heaven and sprinkle his blood on the mercy seat in heaven for our sins to be forgiven. But your faith does not determine reality. If Jesus did not die for you personally, your faith is vain and you will die in your sins. By the way, how DO you know Jesus died for you personally? Was your name on a list somewhere? Or did you simply convince yourself you are one of the few fortunate elect? That is the prOBlem with Limited Atonement. If Jesus die not die for all men, you have no way of knowing if he died for YOU. And how can anybody have faith in a complete uncertainty??????
  2. Asking why one person chooses to believe on Jesus while another rejects him proves nothing. That is like asking why some people like ketchup on a hot dog, while others prefer mustard. They just do. The prOBlem is that if God cursed us to be born with a nature that desires sin, then sin is God's fault. Plain and simple. Men are born "flesh" with lusts and desires. The flesh simply desires to please itself, regardless of how it does it. This is what tempts us to sin. Eve was flesh and had desires BEFORE she sinned. Having lusts and desires is not sinful in itself, it is when we OBey our lusts and desires and transgress one of God's laws that we sin. Sin is not something you are, sin is something you DO. Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Eve displayed the three worldly lusts shown in 1 John 2:16 here; #1 - the lust of the flesh: Eve saw the tree was good for food. It tempted her appetite and hunger. TV commercials depend on this lust, how many times has a pizza commercial made you hungry? #2 - the lust of the eyes; Eve saw the fruit of the tree was pleasant to look at. It appealed to her sense of beauty. We are all tempted by a beautiful woman. TV commercials use attractive people to entice you to buy their products. #3 - the pride of life; Eve desired to eat the forbidden fruit because it would make her wise. It is not wrong to desire to be wise unless we do it to feel superior to our fellow man. Commercials appeal to our pride of life, we want those clothes that will make us more attractive, or that fancy car that will make us look like a real hot-shot. Was Eve evil when she had these desires? NO, God saw everything he had made, and it was "very good". Lust and desires do not make us evil, it is when we transgress God's law that we sin and become sinners. If Eve had walked away from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, she would have been no sinner. These desires of the flesh is what most people mistake for a sin nature. Jesus himself had these fleshly lusts. He was tempted in "all points" as we are, yet without sin. He could be "touched" with the "feeling" of our infirmities (weaknesses). He felt the tug and pull of the flesh just as much as we do, perhaps far more, as he never satisfied these lusts when they would have caused him to sin. Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may OBtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. We are fortunate that Jesus became flesh, because he can relate and sympathize with our fleshly weaknesses. He knows exactly how strong the pull and tug of the flesh is. Psa 103:13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him. 14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust. We are born flesh, and we learn early to satisfy our fleshly desires. This does not make us sinful, it is when we KNOWINGLY choose to disOBey one of God's commands that we become "sinful". Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. God did not punish the little children of the Jews who sinned in the wilderness. Why? Because they did not know between good and evil. It is KNOWLEDGE that makes us accountable before God. This is why Adam and Eve died when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, because they now understood between good and evil. This is shown throughout the scriptures. Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings. Little children are not born knowing between good and evil and therefore are not accountable. When we mature and understand between good and evil, then we become accountable. This is why Paul said he "died" in Romans 7:9; Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. In verse 7, Paul describes when he learned the law as all Jewish boys and girls do. He said he would have not known sin, except for the law, he would have not known what lust is, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. In verse 9 Paul tells us he was "alive" before the commandment came. He is speaking of being spiritually alive here. When he learned the law he became accountable and was convicted for his sin. He spiritually "died". He cannot possibly be saying he physically died. Paul thought the law would lead to life. He thought if he OBeyed the law he would inherit eternal life. But sin used the law to convict him as a sinner and he spiritually died. The law is good, but sin uses the law against us to kill us spiritually. So, this is when we become sinners, when we knowingly and willingly transgress one of God's laws. Sin is not something you are, it is something you do, it is trangressing God's law. 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
  3. No one considers it a sin when a dog barks. if a dog did not bark, you would think something is wrong with that dog, not right. Likewise, when we sin, it is considered wrong. You feel guilty for it. We all expect each other to do right. Sin is not natural for us, it is unnatural.
  4. The fact is, scripture teaches that Jesus had the same nature as us. Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Most people believe the sin nature resides in the flesh. If so, then Jesus would have had a sin nature, because he took part of "the same" flesh and blood as us. Jesus also took upon himself the "nature" of "the seed of Abraham". So, if Abraham and his seed were born with a sinful nature, then so was Jesus. Jesus was made like his brethren the Jews in "all things". If the Jews were born with a sin nature, then so was Jesus. Jesus did not have a sin nature, and neither did we at first. We were made upright, but all of us became sinful when we chose to sin.
  5. The fact that we all sin does not prove we are born with a sin nature. Adam and Eve were created "very good", yet they sinned the first time they were tempted. Satan was perfect in his ways when he was created (as well as the fallen angels), yet they chose to sin. Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. People ASSUME because all men choose to sin that this proves we are born with a sin nature, but scripture PROVES this view false. The fact that we sin DOES NOT prove we are born with a sin nature, only that we have free will. In fact, scripture says God made man UPRIGHT. Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. Ecc 7:29 refutes Original Sin as it says God made men upright. The word "they" points back to the word "man" and shows this verse is speaking of all men, not Adam alone. The word "many" shows that men fall because of personal sin and not the single sin Adam committed in the garden. There is MUCH more, but this will do for a start.
  6. Good for you Jordan. You stay true to God and he will use you. That is a wonderful life.
  7. Maybe you should start a new thread on it. But I can see you are thinking, and thinking correctly. But be prepared, you will take a LOT of heat on this one.
  8. You will change your mind in time. Sometime when we both have time I will present scripture that will prove it to you.
  9. I would disagree. Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. Is Jesus speaking of the Spirit descending upon him after he was baptized here? NO, Jesus had been baptized sometime before and had spent 40 days in the wilderness being tempted before he said this in Nazareth. So, this OT prophecy was not concerning what John the Baptist saw.
  10. Well, I certainly am not a Calvinist or an Arminian, I do not believe in Original Sin. I made that clear in my introduction. Other than that I am very conservative. I am King James only. It might have been you that invited me to join here awhile back, but my memory fails me.
  11. Have you been on Baptist Board? I have been a member there for years.
  12. "That"? What do you mean by "that"?
  13. Yes, this was a sign for John the Baptist. Nevertheless, he was told that whom the Spirit descended "upon" and whom it rested "on" was the promised Christ. It does not say the Spirit "indwelled" Jesus or was "in" him. Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. Does scripture say the Holy Spirit was "in" Jesus? NO, it repeatedly says the Spirit was "upon" him, or "on" him. That is significant don't you think? Now, I could be wrong, Jesus said the Father dwells "in" him (Jhn 14:10), so perhaps the Spirit dwelled in him as well, but the scriptures do not say that anywhere that I know of. I would prOBably assume that the Spirit dwelled in Jesus if not for Acts 2:33.
  14. #1 Of course it was God who stopped the rain, who would believe otherwise? This is a strawman. #2 The scriptures say Elias (Elijah) was a man of like passions as we are. He was a normal man, yet he was able to pray and God stopped it from raining for 3 1/2 years. He prayed again and it rained. #3 Do you listen to Charismatics? I will say this though, if you do not believe God will answer your prayer, he certainly will not. Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. This passage concerns asking for wisdom, nevertheless, God is not going to answer your prayer if you do not believe. At least the Charismatics believe. And I would not be surprised if God does not answer their prayers at times, even if they are in error. If we must be perfect before God will answer our prayers, we are all in big trouble. #4 OK, and Elijah believed God and prayed for rain. What is your point?
  15. You don't preach the gospel to believers, you preach the gospel to unbelievers so they might believe. Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. What would be the purpose of preaching the gospel to someone who already believes? It would accomplish nothing. Paul told unbelievers that Jesus died for "our" sins so they MIGHT believe. But you can't do that. You are correct, it is not the same gospel.
  16. Perhaps this verse simply means Jesus received the promise that his Father would give the Holy Spirit to those who believe on Jesus. But the way it is worded, it seems to say Jesus received the promise of the Holy Ghost, and he, meaning Jesus, has now shed forth "this", the word "this" being the Holy Spirit that came upon these believers on Pentacost. One verse that MIGHT suggest that Jesus had the indwelling Spirit before this is John 14:10; Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Here, Jesus said the Father "dwelleth in me". So, perhaps the Holy Spirit also dwelt in him at this time. Perhaps not. The book of John is difficult, because some things that are spoken of in present tense are future. Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. Jesus said those that eat his flesh, and drink his blood (believe) dwell in him present tense. But believers did not receive the Holy Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead. Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) So Jesus said that persons who believe on him, he dwells in them, and they dwell in him, present tense. But when it comes to the Holy Spirit, we are told he will be received by believers in the future. So, in John 14:10 Jesus says the Father dwells in him present tense, does that mean the Holy Spirit dwells in him present tense, or did Jesus also receive the Holy Spirit in the future when he was risen and glorified? This is not simple.
  17. Well, the verses I provided showed a normal man could perform miracles through the assistance of the Holy Spirit, and that is how I believe Jesus performed his miracles. He never performed any miracles until after the Holy Spirit descended upon him. Jhn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. This was just a few days after Jesus was baptized and the Spirit descended upon him, This was the "beginning" of miracles he performed. He never performed a miracle before the Holy Ghost descended upon him. I agree that Jesus knew Lazarus was dead, but Jesus also said, I am glad for your sakes that "I was not there". He was not omnipresent as a man. And concerning his return Jesus said that of that day and hour knoweth "no man". As a man he was not omniscient. These are things beyond our comprehension, nevertheless we should believe what the scriptures say.
  18. Those scriptures do not prove your view. Mar 4:39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. This does not prove Jesus as a man was omnipotent, prophets could control the weather through the power of the Holy Spirit that was upon them. Jam 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. Elias stopped the rain for three years, and then prayed again and it rained. He was a normal man. Jesus was not omnipresent as a man; Jhn 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him. Jesus was not 100% omniscient as a man. Mar 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Now let me qualify all these statements. Jesus as a man was quite normal. But at the same time he WAS and IS God. As God he was omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. Jesus showed that he was both in heaven and on earth at the same time with Nicodemus. Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Jesus told Nicodemus he was in heaven when he was speaking to Nicodemus face to face. So, this is a very difficult subject to comprehend. Jesus as a man was limited in his abilities, but as God he is not. It is difficult to comprehend how both could be true at the same moment, but scripture shows they were.
  19. Baloney, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/spurgeon/sermons48.xxvi.html Spurgeon taught Limited or Particular Atonement. He did not believe Jesus died for all men. Spurgeon is very clear here, he does not believe Jesus redeemed "unrepentant men". Now you show evidence that Spurgeon believed Jesus died for all men, as I have shown you from his own words he did not.
  20. If you are going to imply that these Calvinists taught universal atonement, you need to provide proof. It is not up to us to investigate your claims, it is your responsibility to provide evidence for your claims. Imagine a defense lawyer arguing that his client was across town at the time a crime was committed, and then telling the prosecution to look and see for themselves! That's not how it works, you have to show evidence for your claims. If the defense lawyer could show a video that his defendent was at the airport across town when the crime was committed, he would prove his claim. I can show you that Spurgeon did not believe in universal atonement; http://www.ligonier.org/blog/charles-spurgeon-calvinism-definite-atonement/ Spurgeon was very inconsistent, one day he said Christ died for all men, the next day he would contradict himself.
  21. Well, it is your claim, and therefore your responsibility to present evidence for your claim. Perhaps you can show some examples of their preaching? Anybody can make blank statements without evidence.
  22. Why did the Holy Ghost have to descend on and remain on Jesus? Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. The scriptures are very consistent, they say the Holy Spirit descended "upon" Jesus and remained "on" him. If Jesus had the indwelling Spirit, why did the Holy Spirit need to descend and remain on him? I agree 100% that Jesus WAS and IS God, but the scriptures show that Jesus emptied, or at the least limited himself in some ways as a man. God does not get hungry or tired, Jesus had to eat and sleep like us. God cannot die, Jesus DID die. God is omniscient, Jesus said he did not know the day and hour he would return. I might be wrong, but from what I see in the scriptures Jesus came as a normal man. He had to fight sin the way a normal man would, by faith in God and OBedience to his word. I believe he performed miracles the same way OT prophets did, in the power of the Holy Spirit that was "upon" them. Jud 14:5 Then went Samson down, and his father and his mother, to Timnath, and came to the vineyards of Timnath: and, behold, a young lion roared against him. 6 And the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid, and he had nothing in his hand: but he told not his father or his mother what he had done. It was when the Spirit came "upon" Samson that he had great strength. But when his hair was cut, the LORD departed from him and he was as a normal man. Jud 16:20 And she said, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he awoke out of his sleep, and said, I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself. And he wist not that the LORD was departed from him. So, in the OT the Spirit could depart from a man. 1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. So, I think Jesus had the Spirit in the same way as OT prophets and saints, the Spirit was "upon" him. Perhaps I am wrong. What is important now is that all believers have the permanent indwelling Spirit that will never leave or forsake us.
  23. I wasn't there to hear them preach, so I cannot answer that question. Many Calvinists will say things like, "Jesus died for sinners", but this is only a half truth as it implies Jesus died for all sinners which 5 point Calvinists do not believe. If they were consistent with their view they could only say that Jesus died for "some" sinners, or that Jesus only died for "particular" sinners. A half truth is a whole lie.
  24. Not what I asked. Can you look any person in the eye and tell them Jesus died for their sins personally as Paul did? Paul preached the gospel to unbelievers, and he told them; 1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: Can you tell any person that Jesus died for their sins, or do you believe in Limited Atonement and that Jesus only died for "some" people?
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