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Winman

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Everything posted by Winman

  1. This says DEATH passed on all men, because all men have sinned. It does not say a sin nature passed on all men because Adam sinned.
  2. Sin originates from free will. Satan was created "perfect in his ways" but he chose to sin (Eze 28:15). Why? Because he could. He had free will. The fallen angels were created "very good" but they chose to follow Satan. Why? Because they could, they had free will. Adam and Eve were created "very good" (Gen 1:31) but they had the ability to choose to sin. They had free will. That, and a lack of faith in God is all it takes. So the Bible itself clearly PROVES that you do not have to have a sin nature to sin. Jesus said offenses "must needs be". Sin cannot be avoided, even by God. Why? Because God is love, and he desires that we love him. But love cannot be forced. You must give a person free will to love you. A person has to choose to love you, but this also gives them the ability to reject you. We are not rOBots as some seem to teach, we can choose for or against God. This gives us the ability to choose to love God of our own free will, which is what he desires. But this free will also makes it necessary that folks can choose against God and choose to hate him. So sin or offenses, "must needs be" Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
  3. The scriptures are not written for "little" children. Although a parent should begin early and teach children scripture. But we are talking about MATURITY. God does not hold little children accountable, because they do no know between good and evil. I have already showed you scripture that directly says this. You can read. It is you that is denying what the scripture plainly says. Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. Is that big enough for you to read? Do you understand what God was saying? He said he was going to let the little children go in and possess the promised land. Why, because they had no "knowledge between good and evil" when their parents sinned. It is you that is clearly in denial, nOBody is fooled. Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings. Are little children born knowing to refuse evil and choose good? NOPE. You are just hurting yourself by denying scriptural truth.
  4. You do not comprehend. I have never denied that children do not do wrong things. I have eight children, I bet that I understand this better than you. But God does not hold them ACCOUNTABLE. Read that until you understand it. God does not hold little children accountable when they do wrong. Why? Because they do not understand their actions. We are just the same. If a three year old boy picks up his father's pistol and shoots and kills his sister, do we try that little child for murder and then send him to the electric chair? NO. Why? Because the little boy did not really understand what he was doing. He does not even really understand the concept of death. When he sees someone on TV shoot another person, it looks fun. And God is the exact same way, he does not hold that child accountable, he does not judge that child as a sinner. Children do wrong things all the time, but that doesn't make them a sinner. God does not hold them accountable until they understand what they are doing. The Jews understood this, and did not hold a boy responsible until he was 13 years old, and a girl 12. The scriptures are not written to little children, it is written to mature men and women who understand it. Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. When the Jews sinned in the wilderness, God would not allow them to enter the promised land, which is a figure of heaven. But he did allow the little children to enter in. Why? Because they did not know between good and evil in the day that their parents sinned. You don't get it, it is the "knowledge of good and evil" that makes us spiritually die. That is why Adam and Eve spiritually died, because they had the knowledge of good and evil. And we are all born with that knowledge, but it take a few years to develop and mature, just like our bodies. At about the same time our bodies grow hair to cover our most private parts, men's minds develop and they understand good and evil. This is when they become accountable before God. Now when they knowingly sin, they DIE.
  5. And you are mistaken. The word "converted" means to turn or repent. So Jesus is telling his disciples they must repent and become as little children to enter heaven. They must become sinless to enter heaven. No defiled thing enters heaven, I already showed you that. Little children are not evil, Jesus said they have angels who ALWAYS behold his Father's face. They are not separated from God. Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. Was the prodigal son lost originally? Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: You should read Luke chapter 15. Jesus tells three parable which are one, and they are all about sinners who repent. None were original lost as Original Sin falsely teaches. Was the lost sheep originally lost? 4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? The lost sheep did not start out lost, he was in the shepherd's flock. Originally the shepherd had one hundred sheep. This refutes Original Sin that teaches all men are born dead in sin and separated from God. Jesus show the EXACT OPPOSITE. How many silver pieces did the woman originally have? 8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it? How many pieces of silver did the woman originally have? TEN. How many were lost? NONE. Boy, Jesus must have forgotten all men are born lost when he told these parables, because he is clearly speaking of lost sinners in this chapter. 10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. Jesus got it right that a sinner has to repent, why does he mistakenly teach the sinner was not originally lost? Something is wrong here. And then he tells us about the prodigal son. Was he originally lost? Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons: Nope, Jesus said the father had two sons. They weren't lost. The prodigal didn's start out lost, but he soon decided to leave home and fell into sin. It was then that he was joined to a citizen (the devil) of that far country. 13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. 14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. 15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. This is when the prodigal became lost and spiritually dead, when he knowingly and willingly left home and went out in sin. It was then that he was joined to that citizen (the devil) of that far country. Could he repent? Yep, and he did. 17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. Did the prodigal lose the ability to repent as many falsely teach? NOPE, he headed for home. And notice that the father saw the boy coming when he was still a great way off. Hey, that's God's foreknowledge, God can see who will repent before they actually do! But now, what did Jesus say the father said when the boy repented? 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. Whoa! Wait a minute! What is Jesus saying here??? What does Jesus mean, the prodigal is alive AGAIN? That's impossible, we are all born dead in sin, none of us was ever alive until we repented. Right? Right?? Right???? BOOM! Original Sin is destroyed by Jesus himself. When the boy repented Jesus said he was alive AGAIN. You have to be alive once to be alive AGAIN, just like Paul said in Romans 7. Did Jesus forget we are all born dead in sin? Did Jesus forget that all of us are born separated from God? How could Jesus make such serious mistakes?? Surely Jesus must have been mistaken when he said the prodigal was alive AGAIN. That is impossi..... what? He said it again? Where? 32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. No, no, no, say it ain't so Joe!! Jesus said it again! He said the prodigal son was alive AGAIN! What was Jesus thinking? Doesn't Jesus know we are all born dead in sin? It just can't be so, it just can't be so, it just can't be so.....
  6. Yes, but if a person says, "Scripture refutes you" it is only fair that you at the least show what scripture you are referring to. That gives the other person a chance to respond. It is fine to say you agree with someone's post. You do not have to show scripture, the other person did. You are agreeing with that scripture and that person's interpretation of that scripture. But to simply say, "You are wrong, and scripture proves it" is meaningless. If you can't say something meaningful, you shouldn't say anything at all. I will respond to any scripture anyone posts here, and I guarantee you that I can show it does not support Original Sin.
  7. And you are mistaken, Jesus told his disciples they must be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. Nothing defiled is allowed to enter heaven, so OBviously little children are not defiled. Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Is Jesus telling his disciples they need to become filthy sinners to enter heaven? Absurd! Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it anything that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. The scriptures say no defiled thing will enter heaven. But Jesus said you must become converted and become as a little child to enter heaven. Therefore, simple logic dictates that little children are not defiled. And did Jesus say we must become as a certain or particular child to enter heaven? No, he simply said we must be converted and become as "little children" to enter heaven. Therefore, all little children are innocent and not sinners. Original Sin is complete falsehood.
  8. Fantastic question Jordan, and I will answer it. The scriptures are not addressed to children, the scriptures are addressed to MEN. The Jews understood this, and still do. The Jews do not hold children accountable to the law until they are 13 years old (males) and 12 years old (females). This is called the Bar Mitzvah (boys), and Bat Mitzvah (girls). These words literally mean "son of the commandments" and "daughter of the commandments". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_and_Bat_Mitzvah This is exactly what Paul is describing in Romans 7, when he learned the law as a young man (pre-teen). Paul said he would not have "known sin" except for the law, he would have not "known" what lust is, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet (10th commandment). Paul said he was ALIVE ONCE without the law, but when the commandment came (when he learned and understood the law), sin revived and he DIED. Paul cannot possibly be saying he physically died, so he was not saying he was physically alive either. Paul is saying he was spiritually alive, but when the learned the law he was convicted by the law as a sinner, and this is when he died. He died when he understood God's law. Rom 5:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. All sorts of folks have perverted this very simple and straightforward passage. In vs. 7 Paul simply explains how the law gave him KNOWLEDGE. It is the knowledge of good and evil that makes us accountable. But sin uses the law against us and convicts us of all sorts of sin. This is what Paul is saying in vs. 8. Sin has no power without law, but as soon as we learn the law and break it, we are "sold to sin" (vs 14). Now sin owns us and has power over us. But until Paul learned the law he was spiritually ALIVE. He was not born dead in sin as Original Sin falsely teaches. He was ALIVE. Plain as day. But when he learned the law, sinned revived and he DIED. That is spiritual death. Paul thought the law would lead to life, but sin took advantage of the law and used it against him to KILL him. Plain as day, but many have perverted this simple passage. Little children are not judged sinners. Jesus spoke only GOOD of little children. Jesus told his disciples they had to be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Was Jesus telling his disciples they must become evil little sinners to enter heaven? Absurd! Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. Is Jesus telling us that God gives little wicked sinners guardian angels? Ridiculous! No, the scriptures show children are innocent, God does not judge them as sinners until they learn the law like Paul did in Romans 7. When they know and understand the law, then they become accountable and will DIE spiritually when they choose to sin. When the scriptures say, For ALL have sinned, it is speaking of MEN not babies and very little children. The Jews understood this (and still do).
  9. They only banned me for a month, because as much as they hate me, I make them think. And I will make you think too. But if you do not seriously want to learn, I can be MORE inane than you. I don't understand why folks get mad when I imitate them.
  10. The difference is that I have presented dozens of scriptures and went into great detail as to how I interpret them to explain my views. You or anyone else can then respond and explain to me why I am wrong, but no one has. John 81 on the other hand just makes a blank statement like "scripture refutes you". Is that an argument? If you really believe scripture supports Original Sin, show it. People here have presented Psalm 51:5 and Psalm 58:3 and I have answered why I believe these verses do not prove Original Sin. Does Psalm 51:5 say all men are born sinners? Nope, it says "I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me". This is the type of Hebrew poetry where each phrase is saying the same thing. This verse is simply saying that David's mother was sinning when he was conceived. It doesn't tell us exactly what she was doing, but she was doing something wrong. But it is not saying all men are born sinners, that is a ridiculous interpretation of this verse. Is Psalm 58:3 saying all men are born sinners? Nope, it is speaking of the "wicked" only. In the same Psalm David speaks of "the righteous". So, he is not saying all men are born speaking lies, but the wicked only. But the trouble is, the whole Psalm is OBvious figurative speech and exaggeration. There has NEVER been a baby born that can speak lies the moment he came out of the womb. Babies are not poisonous like snakes, they do not have huge teeth like lions, and they do not melt like snails. So Psalm 58:3 is utterly ridiculous scripture to form doctrine on. That was never it's intent. It is OBviously figurative and hyperbole, and should not be taken literally. See, this is how you answer your opponents in debate. You don't just say "you are wrong", you tell WHY they are wrong. None of you have done that.
  11. If you are not going to present evidence for your view, you should back out of the debate and allow those who are serious to debate. No one can read your mind, no one has an idea which scriptures others showed convinces you that Original Sin is true.
  12. Then show me which scripture convinces you that Original Sin is true. Show it. You do not seem to grasp the concept that in debate you must provide "evidence" to support your view. To simply say "scripture" proves Original Sin is true is meaningless. Which scripture? How can a person address or answer this scripture? You are a very poor debater. Present evidence for what you believe. I have presented dozens of verses to support my view, no one has refuted a single verse, other than to say, "you are wrong" Show me this scripture that proves Original Sin. I promise you I can show you that it doesn't support Original Sin.
  13. Why do you think Jesus was led of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted? What was the point of this?
  14. That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. But I would bet others would disagree with you. In my opinion, you are not open to new views, you have already made up your mind what you believe.
  15. Paul also said the Gentiles "by nature" do the things contained in the law, which is good. Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: This actually shows what the word "nature" means, it means a learned behavior. Men learn to live in a civilized culture. Laws are developed to protect the society. Men by nature know what is good and evil and what is most beneficial for the society and develop laws men live by. Even in the darkest jungles, men who have never known other men have rules of conduct they live by. This is man's "nature' Likewise, sin is learned behavior too, men imitate each other and do sinful deeds like becoming drunkards or thieves, and this becomes their "nature". But Paul shows by nature that man does good, not evil only. So your proof text is not a proof of Original Sin whatsoever.
  16. Wow, what a compelling argument. You must have been on the debate team in school.
  17. Baloney, there is more scripture that implies a sin nature is received from a woman than man. JOB 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? JOB 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? These scriptures kind of shoot a hole in your superstitious view that we inherit a sin nature from our father. If anything, scripture implies we inherit a sin nature from our mother. Nice try though.
  18. Well, I am sorry, men do not conceive, only women conceive, so Psa 51:5 is describing David's mother. It actually fits the context if you consider that David was the black sheep of his family and treated as an inferior by his own father and brothers. We know for a fact that David had two sisters whose father was Nahash the Ammonite, so David's mother had relations with a non-Jew which was strictly forbidden. We know that David looked very different from his brothers who were tall and handsome, while David was short, ruddy, and not attractive. Now there are all sorts of possibilities here, David could have been conceived out of wedlock, or Jesse might not have been David's biological father. Many a man has raised a son who was fathered by another man, even when his wife was married to him. It happens. I cannot say exactly what David is describing in Psa 51:5, but we know he was treated very poorly by his father and brothers. When Samuel called Jesse to bring his sons to a feast, twice Jesse presented all his older sons, but failed to bring David forward. Only when Samuel persisted did Jesse admit he had one other son, who had been left out in the field tending the sheep. Samuel insisted Jesse present David, and as we all know he was the person God chose to be king. But Jesse was ashamed of David. He did not present him when he was asked twice. So it is clear David was treated very poorly by his family, and it seems that his mother was to blame for this. I believe David was simply confessing he was the "dog" his family had always told him he was. It fits the context of David's confession perfectly. David is not saying ALL MEN are born sinners. You have to read that into this scripture. It says no such thing. Does JOB 14:4 prove men are born sinners? JOB 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one. This is JOB describing a newborn baby. What does a newborn look like? He is covered in his MOTHER'S blood. This shows that we become sinners by influence, by being born into a sinful world. And this is what the Bible really teaches, that men become sinners when they follow in the tradition of their fathers. Sin is learned. 1 Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; Our vain or sinful conversation (lifestyle) was received "by tradition" from our fathers. We simply follow in their footsteps and copy them. We learn to sin from our fathers. Jhn 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. Jesus said these evil men did the things "which they have seen" with their fathers. We learn to sin from our fathers. So, when anyone is born into a sinful world they are contaminated by it, just as a baby is covered in his mother's blood. The baby himself is not filthy, it is his mother's blood that makes him filthy. This is what JOB is saying. Psa 58:3 has been addressed. This is a ridiculous verse to argue Original Sin from as it is OBvious hyperbole. First, it is not addressed to all men, but the wicked only. The same Psalm speaks of "the righteous" in verses 10 and 11. In addition, no baby was ever born with the ability to speak as soon as they exited the womb, much less lie, which takes "intent" But let me ask you a question, what language do all babies speak? They speak the language of their PARENTS. Babies learn to speak from hearing and imitating their parents, and this is how they learn to lie as well. Secondly, Psalm 58, says the wicked persons are poisonous like an adder and deaf. Are all babies born poisonous and deaf? Third, this Psalm says the wicked have huge teeth like young lions. Are babies born with a mouthful of hugh sharp teeth like lions? Absurd. I could go on, but it is beyond foolish to use this Psalm to form doctrine about how man is born into this world. Does John 3:6 say men are born sinners? Let's see. Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. I don't see a single word in this verse saying all men are born sinners. You have to read that into this verse, "cause it ain't there. Does Eph 2:3 say we are born sinners? Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disOBedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Does this passage say we were born sinners? NOPE, it simply says we were dead in trespasses and sins wherein in time past we "walked". Have you ever seen a newborn baby that can walk? I have eight children and none of them could walk until they were at least a year old or thereabouts. And walking is something you learn. So, none of these scriptures prove Original Sin. In fact, if people put just a little thought into these scriptures they would see that sin is a learned behavior that we learn from our parents and those around us. And this is exactly what the scriptures show to the person who is OBservant.
  19. I never said that little children do not do wrong. I have eight children, I assure you I know children have the ability to do wrong, prOBably better than you. But God does not hold them accountable until they understand their actions before God. Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. When the Jews sinned against God in the wilderness, God said they would in no way enter the promised land, which is a figure of heaven. But God did allow their children to enter in. Why? Because they had no knowledge between good and evil in that day that their parents sinned. Why did Adam and Eve die spiritually die when they ate the forbidden fruit? Because now they had KNOWLEDGE between good and evil and were convicted as sinners. Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Here Paul tells us of the time he learned the law as all young Jewish boys and girls do. He said he would have not "known" sin, except for the law, he would not have "known" lust, except the law said, Thou shalt not covet. In verse 9 he tells us he was ALIVE without the law ONCE. This utterly destroys Original Sin that teaches we are born dead in sin. Paul says he was spiritually alive, but when he learned the law, sin revived and he died. Paul thought the law led to life, if he OBeyed the law he would inherit eternal life, but sin used the law against him and convicted him as a sinner and he spiritually died. He could not possibly be speaking of physical life and death in this passage. But again, it was KNOWLEDGE that made Paul accountable, and this is why he died. Children do wrong things all the time, but they do not understand their actions, and so are not judged as sinners. To be a "sinner" is a legal judgment, like being a "felon". Rom 3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? One of the main reasons folks get the book of Romans all wrong is that they do not realize that Paul is speaking as a lawyer in this book, he is speaking in legal terms. The word "sinner" is a legal term. We call everyone a sinner, but this was not the case with the Jews, this term was reserved for more serious transgressions willingly and knowingly committed. Luk 7:37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, 38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment. 39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner. The Jews did not use the term "sinner" the way we do, it was a legal judgment, like being a felon. And this is how Paul uses the term in the book of Romans.
  20. Nice philosophy, it's too bad the scriptures say Jesus was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.
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