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2T3:16

Independent Fundamental Baptist
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  1. Thanks
    2T3:16 got a reaction from John Young in Sam Gipps Videos On Youtube Playlist, 5 Episodes   
    Put Sam Gipps videos on the King James Bible into a single youtube playlist:
  2. Thanks
    2T3:16 got a reaction from No Nicolaitans in Do You Believe There Was Not Rain Before The Flood Of Noah?   
    something different than "rain" Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
    2:6
      But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.  
    I don't think it rained until after the flood.
  3. Thanks
    2T3:16 reacted to John81 in Why People Hate The King James Bible   
    In many instances the KJB is far more direct and clear in it's declarations of what is sin, the terribleness of sin and the consequences of sin than are many MVs. Liberal minded Christians and secular Christians don't like that at all. While certain MVs give them wiggle room, the KJB does not.
  4. Thanks
    2T3:16 reacted to Standing Firm In Christ in Dorightchristians - The Anon Church And Back Row Baptist   
    http://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/
  5. Thanks
    2T3:16 reacted to Steve Schwenke in Dorightchristians - The Anon Church And Back Row Baptist   
    Invicta, the prOBlem is that you have been saying for years now that Darby "invented" the pre-trib doctrine.  There have been plenty of people - myself included - who have provided sufficient evidence to the contrary.  Yet you continue to say that pre-trib doctrine started with Darby....and even here, in the face of more evidence, you do not apologize for your spreading of this falsehood, but rather cling to a lie that we have dismantled many times over....
     
    What gives?  Why can you not simply admit that you are wrong on this point?  If you reject the pre-trib rapture of the church, it is your prerogative.  But don't go around spouting the same nonsense about Darby, when we have proven you wrong on so many occasions.  This is why the others have accused you of lieing - you continue to say Darby invented the pre-trib rapture, even though we have debunked that theory several times.
     
    Maybe Darby SYSTEMATIZED what many had taught before him, and maybe Darby POPULARIZED what many had taught before him - but he did not INVENT the pre-trib rapture doctrine. 
  6. Thanks
    2T3:16 got a reaction from candlelight in Dorightchristians - The Anon Church And Back Row Baptist   
    So be nice now means people can't question any decision? ... to be honest that sounds like the way the supreme court has been interpreting the constitution
  7. Thanks
    2T3:16 got a reaction from Cliff Hanger in My Idea Of A Good Night Out   
    Went out soulwinngin/visiting:
    (1) some people wouldn't talk at all (guy with black tatoos and no shirt said church people are hypocrites and pointed to a tatoo of a cross and said "this is my religion" and told us to go ... my partner talked to him for a while more)
    (2) found a house with old bus riders so the bus captain over that area will get an address with about 5 kids that the mother said used to come ... the mother wrote down the address phone and names of the kids
    (3) several dogs running around the middle of the street ... dogs everywhere
    (4) spoke with and prayed with some people
    (5) I told my parter there is "a spirit" on the street" ... he said "what spirit" (I thought "not the good kind" ... I just said to him "take the dogs for example ... everyone has dogs")
    (6) we still had 10 planned minutes after finishing the street and as we were discussing how we were going to spend the next 10 minutes a bicycler comes along and I waved her down with a tract
    (7) after about 10 minutes the bicycler trusted Jesus Christ as her Saviour right there in the street ... she warned us that the street we had just finished on was a bad street (it confirmed my thoughts) ... one saved, people talked to/tracts with the gospel given out, "lost" bus riders located ... a "possessed" street got visited with the gospel and prayer, a good night out
  8. Thanks
    2T3:16 reacted to No Nicolaitans in Dorightchristians - The Anon Church And Back Row Baptist   
    Sorry MountainChristian, but I do need to say one more thing, and then I'll drop it.
     
    I don't know this Dave MacPherson character either, but I did notice (in that article Covenanter posted) that he spent an awful lot of time making personal attacks against people (whom I assume) teach a Pre-Trib rapture...making a lot of nasty accusations and dragging their names through the mud to make it even nastier...and using "I won't tell you about...", and then telling about it!
     
    It always resorts to attacking the character. Everything he said might be true; I don't know. But what I do know is that he lost all respect and all credibility when he resorted to character assassination...at least, he did in my view. 
  9. Thanks
    2T3:16 reacted to No Nicolaitans in Dorightchristians - The Anon Church And Back Row Baptist   
    Well, I would disagree with you, and as much as I do disagree with parts of the "sermon"...it seems rather OBvious when reading the whole of the "sermon" that he relates a Pre-Trib doctrine...
     
    I'm not defending Pseudo Ephraem by the way...I know nothing about him other than this "sermon", and I've personally never met him. 
     
    That's why I said in the original post when I referenced him..."make of it what you will".
     
    In my view, he's espousing Pre-Trib, and even the article from WICKEDpedia admits that it is an ancient work from "at least" the 8th century...and that's a long time before this Darby character came on the scene.
  10. Thanks
    2T3:16 reacted to No Nicolaitans in Dorightchristians - The Anon Church And Back Row Baptist   
    No, there are no specific Scripture references...only references to Scripture (if that makes sense). 
     
    You can read it here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Pseudo-Ephraem
     
    I would suggest scrolling down to the "Rhoades Translation"...it's easier to read.
  11. Thanks
    2T3:16 reacted to No Nicolaitans in Dorightchristians - The Anon Church And Back Row Baptist   
    Make of it what you will...
    _________________________________________________________
     
    Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement
    by Thomas Ice
     
    All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)
     
    Critics of pretribulationism sometimes state that belief in the rapture is a doctrinal development of recent origin. They argue that the doctrine of the rapture or any semblance of it was completely unknown before the early 1800s and the writings of John Nelson Darby. One of the most vocal and sensational critics of the rapture is Dave MacPherson, who argues that, "during the first 18 centuries of the Christian era, believers were never 'Rapture separaters' [sic]; they never separated the minor Rapture aspect of the Second Coming of Christ from the Second Coming itself."1
     
    A second critic, John Bray, also vehemently opposes a pretribulational rapture, writing, "this teaching is not a RECOVERY of truth once taught and then neglected. No, it never was taught-for 1800 years nearly no one knew anything about such a scheme."2 More recently, pre-trib opponent ROBert Van Kampen proclaimed, "The pretribulational rapture position with its dual parousias was unheard of in church history prior to 1830."3 In our previous issue of Pre-Trib Perspectives, I noted that pre-wrath advocate Marvin Rosenthal has also joined the chorus.4
     
    Christian reconstructionists have also consistently and almost universally condemned premillennialism and pretribulationism, favoring instead, postmillen-nialism. One sample of their prolific and often vitri-olic opposition can be seen in Gary North's derisive description of the rapture as "the Church's hoped-for Escape Hatch on the world's sinking ship," which he, like MacPherson, believes was invented in 1830.5
     
    How to Find the Rapture in History
     
    Is pretribulationism as theologically bankrupt as its critics profess, or are there answers to these charges? If there are reasonable answers, then the burden of proof and historical argumentation shifts back to the critics. Rapture critics must acknowledge and interact with the historical and theological evidence.
     
    Rapture critic William Bell has formulated three criteria for establishing the validity of a historical citation regarding the rapture. If any of his three criteria are met, then he acknowledges it is "of crucial importance, if found, whether by direct statement or clear inference." As will be seen, the Pseudo-Ephraem sermon meets not one, but two of his canons, namely, "Any mention that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one phase, separated by an interval of years," and "any mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the tribulation period."6
     
    Pseudo-Ephraem's Rapture Statement
     
    I vividly remember the phone call at my office late one afternoon from Canadian prophecy teacher and writer Grant Jeffrey.7 He told me that he had found an ancient pre-trib rapture statement. I said, "Let's hear it." He read the following to me over the phone:
    All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.
     
    I said that it sure sounds like a pre-trib statement and began to fire at him all the questions I have since received many times when telling others about the statement from Pseudo-Ephraem's sermon On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.8 Grant's phone call started me on journey through many of the substantial libraries throughout the Washington, D.C. area in an effort to learn all I could about this historically significant statement. The more information I acquired led me to conclude that Grant is right to conclude that this is a pre-trib rapture statement of antiquity.
     
    Who is Pseudo-Ephraem?
     
    The word "Pseudo" (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the name of a famous historical person or book of the Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church. He was well-known for his poetics, rejection of rationalism, and confrontations with the heresies of Marcion, Mani, and the Arians. As a poet, exegete, and theologian, his style was similar to that of the Jewish midrashic and targumic traditions and he favored a contemplative approach to spirituality. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual father and role model. His many works, some of doubtful authenticity, were soon translated from Syriac into Greek, Armenian, and Latin.
     
    It is not at all unreasonable to expect that a prolific and prominent figure such as Ephraem would have writings ascribed to him. While there is little support for Ephraem as the author of the Sermon on the End of the World, Caspari and Alexander have demonstrated that Pseudo-Ephraem was "heavily influenced by the genuine works of Ephraem."9 What is more difficult, though secondary to the main purpose of this article, is determining the exact date, purpose, location of, and extent of subsequent editorial changes to the sermon.10
    Suggestions on the date of the writing of the original sermon range from as early as Wilhelm Bousset's 373 date,11 to Caspari's estimation of sometime between 565 and 627.12 Paul Alexander, after reviewing all the argumentation, favors a date for the final form similar to that suggested by Caspari,13 but Alexander also states simply, "It will indeed not be easy to decide on the matter."14 All are clear that it had to have been written before the advent of Islam.
     
    Pseudo-Ephraem's Sermon
     
    The sermon consists of just under 1500 words, divided into ten sections and has been preserved in four Latin manuscripts. Three of these date from the eighth century and ascribe the sermon to Ephraem. A fourth manuscript from the ninth century, claims not Ephraem, but Isidore of Seville (d. 636) as author.15 Additionally, there are subsequent Greek and Syriac versions of the sermon which have raised questions regarding the language of the original manuscript. On the basis of lexical analysis and study of the biblical citations within the sermon with Latin, Greek, and Syriac versions of the Bible, Alexander believed it most prOBable that the homily was composed in Syriac, translated first into Greek, and then into Latin from the Greek.16 Regardless of the original language, the vocabulary and style of the extant copies are consistent with the writings of Ephraem and his era. It appears likely that the sermon was written near the time of Ephraem and underwent slight change during subsequent coping.
     
    What is most significant for present-day readers is the fact that the sermon was popular enough to be translated into several languages fairly soon after its composition. The significance of the sermon for us today is that it represents a prophetic view of a pre-trib rapture within the orthodox circles of its day.
     
    The sermon is built around the three themes of the title On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World and proceeds chronologically. The fact that the pre-trib statement occurs in section 2, while the antichrist and tribulation are developed throughout the middle sections, followed by Christ's second coming to the earth in the final section supports a pre-trib sequence. This characteristic of the sermon fits the first criteria outlined by William Bell, namely "that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one phase, separated by an interval of years." Thus, phase one is the rapture statement from section 2; the interval of 3 1/2 years, 42 months, and 1,260 days, said to be the tribulation in sections 7 and 8; the second phase of Christ's return is noted in section 10 and said to take place "when the three and a half years have been completed."17
     
    Why Pseudo-Ephraem's Statement is Pretribulational
     
    After learning of Pseudo-Ephraem's rapture statement, I shared it with a number of colleagues. My favorite approach was to simply read the statement, free of any introductory remarks, and ask what they thought. Every person, whether pre-trib or not, concluded that it was some kind of pre-trib statement. A few thought it was a statement from such pre-trib proponents like John Walvoord orCharles Ryrie. Most noted the clear statement concerning the removal of believers before thetribulation as a reason for thinking the statement pre-trib. This is Bell's second criteria for identifying a pre-trib statement from the past, namely, "any mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the tribulation period." Note the following reasons why this should be taken as a pre-trib statement:
     
    1) Section 2 of the sermon begins with a statement about imminency: "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent [Latin "immineat"] or overhanging."18 This is similar to the modern pre-trib view of imminency and considering the subsequent rapture statements supports a pre-trib scenario.
     
    2) As I break down the rapture statement, notice the following OBservations: "All the saints and elect of God are gathered . . ." Gathered where? A later clause says they "are taken to the Lord." Where is the Lord? Earlier in the paragraph the sermon speaks of "the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion. . ." Thus the movement is from the earth toward the Lord who is apparently in heaven. Once again, in conformity to a translation scenario found in the pre-trib teaching.
     
    The next phrase says that the gathering takes place "prior to the tribulation that is to come. . ." so we see that the event is pretribulational and the tribulation is future to the time in which Pseudo-Ephraem wrote.
     
    The purpose for the gathering was so that they would not "see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of their sins." Here we have the purpose of the tribulation judgments stated and that was to be a time of judgment upon the world because of their sin, thus, the church was to be taken out.
     
    3) Finally, the Byzantine scholar Paul Alexander clearly believed that Pseudo-Ephraem was teaching what we call today a pre-trib rapture. According to Alexander, most Byzantine apocalypses were concerned with how Christians would survive the time of severe persecution by Antichrist. The normal approach given by other apocalyptic texts was a shortening of the time to three and a half years, enabling the survival of some Christians.19 Unlike those texts, this sermon has Christians being removed from the time of tribulation.
     
    Alexander OBserved:
     
    It is prOBably no accident that Pseudo-Ephraem does not mention the shortening of the time intervals for the Antichrist's persecution, for if prior to it the Elect are 'taken to the Lord,' i.e., participate at least in some measure in beatitude, there is no need for further mitigating action on their behalf. The Gathering of the Elect according to Pseudo-Ephraem is an alternative to the shortening of the time intervals.20
     
    Conclusion
     
    Regardless of what else the writer of this sermon believed, he did believe that all believers would be removed before the tribulation-a pre-trib rapture view. Thus, we have seen that those who have said that there was no one before 1830 who taught the pre-trib rapture position will have to revise their statements by well over 1,000 years. This statement does not prove the pre-trib position, only the Bible can do that, but it should change many people's historical views on the matter.
     
    ENDNOTES
    1 Dave MacPherson, The Great Rapture Hoax (Fletcher, NC: New Puritan Library, 1983), 15. For a refutation of MacPherson's charges see Thomas D. Ice, "Why the Doctrine of the Pretribulational Rapture Did Not Begin with Margaret Macdonald," Bibliotheca Sacra 147 (1990): 155-68.
    2 John L. Bray, The Origin of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Teaching (Lakeland, FL.: John L. Bray Ministry, 1982), 31-32.
    3 ROBert Van Kampen, The Sign (Wheaton, IL.: Crossway Books, 1992), 445.
    4 Thomas Ice, "Is The Pre-Trib Rapture A Satanic Deception?" Pre-Trib Perspectives (II:1; March 1995):1-3.
    5 Gary North, Rapture Fever: Why Dispensationalism is Paralyzed (Tyler, TX.: Institute for Christian Economics, 1993), 105.
    6 William E. Bell, "A Critical Evaluation of the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine in Christian Eschatology" (Ph.D. diss., New York University, 1967), 26-27.
    7 For more information on the Pseudo-Ephraem statement see Grant R. Jeffrey, Final Warning (Toronto: Frontier Research Publications, 1995). Forthcoming, Timothy Demy and Thomas Ice, "The Rapture and an Early Medieval Citation" Bibliotheca Sacra 152 (July 1995): 300-11. Grant R. Jeffrey, "A Pretribulational Rapture Statement in the Early Medieval Church" in Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, ed., When the Trumpet Sounds: Today's Foremost Authorities Speak Out on End-Time Controversies (Eugene, Or: Harvest House, 1995).
    8 Grant Jeffrey found the statement in Paul J. Alexander, The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, by (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985), 2.10. The late Alexander found the sermon in C. P. Caspari, ed. Briefe, Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelaters, (Christiania, 1890), 208-20. This German work also contains Caspari's commentary on the sermon on pages 429-72.
    9 Paul J. Alexander, "The Diffusion of Byzantine Apocalypses in the Medieval West and the Beginnings of Joachimism," in Prophecy and Millenarianism: Essays in Honour of Marjorie Reeves, ed. Ann Williams (Essex, U.K. : Longman, 1980), 59.
    10 Paul J. Alexander, "Medieval Apocalypses as Historical Sources," American Historical Review 73 (1968): 1017. In this essay Alexander addresses in-depth the historical difficulties facing the interpreter of such texts. To these difficulties, issues of theological interpretation and concern must also be added.
    11 W. Bousset, The Antichrist Legend, trans. A. H. Keane (London: Hutchinson and Co., 1896), 33-41. An early date is also accepted by Andrew R. Anderson, Alexander's Gate: Gog and Magog and the Enclosed Nations. Monographs of the Mediaeval Academy of America, no. 5. (Cambridge, MA.: Mediaeval Academy of America, 1932):16-18.
    12 Caspari, 437-42.
    13 Alexander, Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, 147. This leaves the possibility that the work may have been altered or revised prior to the date of the extant manuscripts.
    14 Ibid., 145. Earlier, he writes: "All that is certain, is as Caspari pointed out, that it must have been written prior to Heraclius' victories over Sassanid Persia, for the author talks repeatedly of wars between Rome and Persia and such discussions do not make sense after Heraclius' victories and the beginning of the Arab invasions" (144).
    15 Ibid., 136-37. The only critical edition is Caspari's which suffers a lack of OBjectivity in that he relied upon only two of the four extant manuscripts.
    16 Ibid., 140-44.
    17 Caspari, 219. English citations are taken from a translation of the sermon provided by Cameron
    Rhoades, instructor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX.
    18 Ibid., 210.
    19 Alexander, 209.
    20 Ibid., 210-11.
  12. Thanks
    2T3:16 got a reaction from Miss Daisy in Dorightchristians - The Anon Church And Back Row Baptist   
    Like pulling a rabbit out of a hat we somehow get from ANY to EVERY. Good one.
  13. Thanks
    2T3:16 got a reaction from Miss Daisy in Dorightchristians - The Anon Church And Back Row Baptist   
    "... refrain from questioning mod decisions... " Is that site policy?
  14. Thanks
    2T3:16 got a reaction from Standing Firm In Christ in Dorightchristians - The Anon Church And Back Row Baptist   
    So be nice now means people can't question any decision? ... to be honest that sounds like the way the supreme court has been interpreting the constitution
  15. Thanks
    2T3:16 reacted to Genevanpreacher in Dorightchristians - The Anon Church And Back Row Baptist   
    Taking my skates off. There.
  16. Thanks
    2T3:16 reacted to Steve Schwenke in Dorightchristians - The Anon Church And Back Row Baptist   
    It "scares" you that  BIble Believing pastor has convictions about Bible Doctrine??? 
    What is scary about that?  It should be NORMAL.  Every Bible Believing Baptist Pastor should be loudly proclaiming Bible Doctrine from the pulpit.  It should not be an anomaly, but normative.
  17. Thanks
    2T3:16 reacted to Miss Daisy in Dorightchristians - The Anon Church And Back Row Baptist   
    but Covenantor is still here?!! OBviously I'm missing something if Ach was banned but Covenantor is still here. What am I missing? or missed?
  18. Thanks
    2T3:16 reacted to Miss Daisy in Dorightchristians - The Anon Church And Back Row Baptist   
    It was a great article. Why was James Ach banned? Because he called out who was spreading Calvinism and other heresies? And had the knowledge to defend himself and other supporters against the trolls? Not right. He's very knowledgeable and Biblically correct from everything I've read of his. I always appreciated all the work he would put into his replies and they were always scripturally based and quoted.
    IMO banning him was a mistake.    
  19. Thanks
    2T3:16 got a reaction from Miss Daisy in Dorightchristians - The Anon Church And Back Row Baptist   
    Wow, great article in the original post link! I admin several facebook groups and have recognized similarities in the accounts of people that later ended up being trolls. They often support people like James White and appear to vehemently hate KJO people like Will Kinney. Some people no doubt think I am paranoid but your article definitely supports my contention that these types of accounts are showing up in various social media ... whether given the Jesuit or the Anon label ... the fact is, this is happening actively.
  20. Thanks
    2T3:16 got a reaction from HappyChristian in My Idea Of A Good Night Out   
    Went out soulwinngin/visiting:
    (1) some people wouldn't talk at all (guy with black tatoos and no shirt said church people are hypocrites and pointed to a tatoo of a cross and said "this is my religion" and told us to go ... my partner talked to him for a while more)
    (2) found a house with old bus riders so the bus captain over that area will get an address with about 5 kids that the mother said used to come ... the mother wrote down the address phone and names of the kids
    (3) several dogs running around the middle of the street ... dogs everywhere
    (4) spoke with and prayed with some people
    (5) I told my parter there is "a spirit" on the street" ... he said "what spirit" (I thought "not the good kind" ... I just said to him "take the dogs for example ... everyone has dogs")
    (6) we still had 10 planned minutes after finishing the street and as we were discussing how we were going to spend the next 10 minutes a bicycler comes along and I waved her down with a tract
    (7) after about 10 minutes the bicycler trusted Jesus Christ as her Saviour right there in the street ... she warned us that the street we had just finished on was a bad street (it confirmed my thoughts) ... one saved, people talked to/tracts with the gospel given out, "lost" bus riders located ... a "possessed" street got visited with the gospel and prayer, a good night out
  21. Thanks
    2T3:16 got a reaction from 2bLikeJesus in My Idea Of A Good Night Out   
    Went out soulwinngin/visiting:
    (1) some people wouldn't talk at all (guy with black tatoos and no shirt said church people are hypocrites and pointed to a tatoo of a cross and said "this is my religion" and told us to go ... my partner talked to him for a while more)
    (2) found a house with old bus riders so the bus captain over that area will get an address with about 5 kids that the mother said used to come ... the mother wrote down the address phone and names of the kids
    (3) several dogs running around the middle of the street ... dogs everywhere
    (4) spoke with and prayed with some people
    (5) I told my parter there is "a spirit" on the street" ... he said "what spirit" (I thought "not the good kind" ... I just said to him "take the dogs for example ... everyone has dogs")
    (6) we still had 10 planned minutes after finishing the street and as we were discussing how we were going to spend the next 10 minutes a bicycler comes along and I waved her down with a tract
    (7) after about 10 minutes the bicycler trusted Jesus Christ as her Saviour right there in the street ... she warned us that the street we had just finished on was a bad street (it confirmed my thoughts) ... one saved, people talked to/tracts with the gospel given out, "lost" bus riders located ... a "possessed" street got visited with the gospel and prayer, a good night out
  22. Thanks
    2T3:16 got a reaction from John81 in My Idea Of A Good Night Out   
    Went out soulwinngin/visiting:
    (1) some people wouldn't talk at all (guy with black tatoos and no shirt said church people are hypocrites and pointed to a tatoo of a cross and said "this is my religion" and told us to go ... my partner talked to him for a while more)
    (2) found a house with old bus riders so the bus captain over that area will get an address with about 5 kids that the mother said used to come ... the mother wrote down the address phone and names of the kids
    (3) several dogs running around the middle of the street ... dogs everywhere
    (4) spoke with and prayed with some people
    (5) I told my parter there is "a spirit" on the street" ... he said "what spirit" (I thought "not the good kind" ... I just said to him "take the dogs for example ... everyone has dogs")
    (6) we still had 10 planned minutes after finishing the street and as we were discussing how we were going to spend the next 10 minutes a bicycler comes along and I waved her down with a tract
    (7) after about 10 minutes the bicycler trusted Jesus Christ as her Saviour right there in the street ... she warned us that the street we had just finished on was a bad street (it confirmed my thoughts) ... one saved, people talked to/tracts with the gospel given out, "lost" bus riders located ... a "possessed" street got visited with the gospel and prayer, a good night out
  23. Thanks
    2T3:16 got a reaction from Miss Daisy in My Idea Of A Good Night Out   
    Went out soulwinngin/visiting:
    (1) some people wouldn't talk at all (guy with black tatoos and no shirt said church people are hypocrites and pointed to a tatoo of a cross and said "this is my religion" and told us to go ... my partner talked to him for a while more)
    (2) found a house with old bus riders so the bus captain over that area will get an address with about 5 kids that the mother said used to come ... the mother wrote down the address phone and names of the kids
    (3) several dogs running around the middle of the street ... dogs everywhere
    (4) spoke with and prayed with some people
    (5) I told my parter there is "a spirit" on the street" ... he said "what spirit" (I thought "not the good kind" ... I just said to him "take the dogs for example ... everyone has dogs")
    (6) we still had 10 planned minutes after finishing the street and as we were discussing how we were going to spend the next 10 minutes a bicycler comes along and I waved her down with a tract
    (7) after about 10 minutes the bicycler trusted Jesus Christ as her Saviour right there in the street ... she warned us that the street we had just finished on was a bad street (it confirmed my thoughts) ... one saved, people talked to/tracts with the gospel given out, "lost" bus riders located ... a "possessed" street got visited with the gospel and prayer, a good night out
  24. Thanks
    2T3:16 got a reaction from MountainChristian in My Idea Of A Good Night Out   
    Went out soulwinngin/visiting:
    (1) some people wouldn't talk at all (guy with black tatoos and no shirt said church people are hypocrites and pointed to a tatoo of a cross and said "this is my religion" and told us to go ... my partner talked to him for a while more)
    (2) found a house with old bus riders so the bus captain over that area will get an address with about 5 kids that the mother said used to come ... the mother wrote down the address phone and names of the kids
    (3) several dogs running around the middle of the street ... dogs everywhere
    (4) spoke with and prayed with some people
    (5) I told my parter there is "a spirit" on the street" ... he said "what spirit" (I thought "not the good kind" ... I just said to him "take the dogs for example ... everyone has dogs")
    (6) we still had 10 planned minutes after finishing the street and as we were discussing how we were going to spend the next 10 minutes a bicycler comes along and I waved her down with a tract
    (7) after about 10 minutes the bicycler trusted Jesus Christ as her Saviour right there in the street ... she warned us that the street we had just finished on was a bad street (it confirmed my thoughts) ... one saved, people talked to/tracts with the gospel given out, "lost" bus riders located ... a "possessed" street got visited with the gospel and prayer, a good night out
  25. Thanks
    2T3:16 reacted to No Nicolaitans in Does Anyone Have Suggestions On How...   
    Here's what you'll be dealing with...I posted this somewhere here before, but I can't find it...so I'm re-posting it here now.
     
    According to an article from the flyer that is sent out from the local Church of Christ, they were answering why they believe things like baptism are a requirement for salvation.  Their basic argument was this...
     
     
    Here is "salvation" (and their proof verses) according to the flyer from the Church of Christ...
    God's Grace (Ephesians 2:8) Christ's Blood (Romans 5:9) The Holy Spirit's Gospel (Romans 1:16) By the way, there's nothing in that verse about "The Holy Spirit's Gospel"! Hmmm...matter of fact, there's nothing in the whole Bible about "The Holy Spirit's Gospel"!!! Sinner's Faith (Acts 16:31) Sinner's Repentance (Luke 13:3) Sinner's Confession (Romans 10:10) Sinner's Baptism (1 Peter 3:21) Sinner's baptism? It's bad enough that they are including baptism; however, they are calling it "sinner's baptism"...and 1 Peter 3:21 is directed at saved people...not lost sinners!
    1 Peter 3:21
    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
    Not only that, how is Peter referring to baptism in saving us? It's right there in the verse...NOT the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God. Baptism saves our conscience toward God, because we have OBeyed Him by being baptized.
    Christian's Work (James 2:24) Oh dear...James 2:24 is talking about us being justified...in man's eyes, not God's...that our works are proof to others of our conversion.  I didn't know the Church of Christ believed in a works salvation!
    Christian's Hope (Romans 8:24) If you read the surrounding verses, you will realize that this "hope" is directly tied to FAITH.  It's not a separate requirement!
    Christian's Endurance (Revelation 2:10) If they are going to use this verse to prove their doctrine, does that mean a saved person only has to endure 10 days?
    Revelation 2:10
    Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
    Hey...wait a minute...call me crazy, but that says nothing about being saved.  It does say that you'll get a crown of life though.
    Okay...without going into detail about how wrong they are in so many areas...according to them, you have to take all of these scriptures into account...and "apply" them in order to be saved.  I just have a couple of questions...
    How were people saved BEFORE all of the books were compiled together? The early church didn't have access to all of these books they mentioned. Was Paul lying to the Romans when he wrote and told them how to be saved? After all, all they had was his letter.  If so, those poor Romans were dealt a bad hand by Paul!

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