Donald

Over the last 30 years or so, my study of God’s Word, has brought me to a set of Doctrinal convictions(a few hundred).  But the way each of us get there, is important: We need to be careful not to ever come to a Doctrinal conviction, based upon someone’s opinion; But only by our personal study of God’s Word and the leadership of the Holy Spirit.  God should give us our convictions, not man.
I have said all of this, because I was recently reminded of one of these Doctrinal convictions, that I have taken; And wanted to share how I got there.
Over the years the Lord has wonderfully blessed my memorization of His Word.  My monthly recital of these verses has been GREAT.  Each month as I re-memorize each one of my memory verses, I can’t help but study them in greater and greater detail, over and over again.
Then, about 25 years ago, as I was re-studying Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," I realized that it contradicted one of my other memory verses.  And as we all know, if we ever find a mistake in the Bible, “we are the ones making the mistake”; And what we have to do, is study even harder, until we find “our mistake”. So I set out on a deeper and deeper study of Titus 2:11 and Romans 10:14, to find out which one I was misinterpreting.
After several months of prayer and study, the Lord gave me the answer.  Titus 2:11 plainly says that EVERYONE will be given an opportunity to get saved.  But although Romans 10:14 says that “only those who a preacher was sent to” would have this opportunity; “This is not what God says”.
Within the context, of Romans 10:14, in verse 18, “the LORD” responds to the three questions in v.14 by saying...“But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.”  Therefore, the Lord says that they do not need a preacher, in order to hear.  This verse refers us back to Psalms 98:3 "He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God."(Natural revelation)
Therefore, the questions in v.14, are questions that people will be asking the Lord, as excuses for not being saved, before being dropped into the lake of fire.
------------------------
This Doctrinal conviction, that I have come to, is challenged all the time, when I hear missionaries quote Romans 10:14, as the reason why we need to send them to their field; "Because if they don’t go, people will go to hell."  Also I hear pastors using it, to get their people to support missions in a greater way.  Don’t misunderstand me.  I am not saying that missions are wrong.  But God is saying, that if someone is going to get saved, He will see to it that they get saved, regardless of what we do or don’t do.
Let me explain what I am talking about; with a little story about two natives.  
In the middle of South America or Africa.  A thousand miles from any town, is a small village of people.  Well one day two men leave the village to go hunting(in different directions).  That afternoon, a big thunderstorm comes up and both men have similar experiences.  They are walking along hunting and out of nowhere, a lighting bolt hits a tree in front of them and spits it open and catches it on fire.  After getting back up from the ground, one of these men looks around and says in his heart, there must be a God in heaven somewhere, that created this wonderful world I am living in.  And from that moment on, he sets out to find out more about the creator.(Kind of like Exodus 3:3)  But the other man, who had the same exact experience, gets up from the ground and says, boy that was interesting and continues hunting.(30 years later he dies and goes to hell).
But the first man, uses the light that God gave him and is given more and more light.  While in a Church in Kansas, the Lord calls a family to the mission field to that same part of the world.  The missionary finishes his deputation and goes to the filed and is setting up his tent, after traveling deep into the wilderness.  When here comes that first man(out of the jungle), and is standing face to face with this missionary.  And the man is told about the one true living God and his Son Jesus and that first man gets saved.
As you can see, this man did not need a preacher to find the LORD, but God used a preacher to tell him about Jesus.  The Bible does not teach us, that people will die and go to hell, if we are not obedient to the Lord.  But it does say that God will use someone else.  God will see to it, that everyone who searches for Him, will find Him.

Hello Dave
You said......
“Now back to the actual discussion - how then do you tell that someone saying he is a pair of Italian shoes actually IS a pair of Italian shoes?”
The only way, would be to take his shoes and socks off and inspect what he is: But then that would be unseemly; Which is the whole point.
➀ God hates it, when we can’t tell by simple observation, what a person is;(Deut.22:5)
➁ Satan hates God and human beings and does all he can do to hurt both parties.
➂ Therefore, Satan lies to someone and convinces them that they can only be happy If they are something else, so in their deceived state, they identify as something else.
➃ Plus(an added bonus), is Satan knows that God hates rebellion and this whole issue, of calling yourself something that you aren’t, is height of rebellion against your creator.
------------------------
➀So, if God created you as a Honda, than you are going to run a long time.
➁But if God created you as a Ford, than you will be dead much faster.
➂And forcing Honda parts onto yourself, will bring your death even faster.(Satan loves that)
➃But the Bible says, that if we strive to please God by honoring Him and being the best  Ford we can be, than He could see to it, that we keep running a lot longer than expected.
So honor God and be what you were created as and be a blessing to yourself and the Lord and others. (Satan hates that!)

Like I said.......
➃But the Bible says, that if we strive to please God by honoring Him and being the best  Ford we can be, than He could see to it, that we last longer than expected.

Hello Dave
You said......
“Now back to the actual discussion - how then do you tell that someone saying he is a pair of Italian shoes actually IS a pair of Italian shoes?”
The only way, would be to take his shoes and socks off and inspect what he is: But then that would be unseemly; Which is the whole point.
➀ God hates it, when we can’t tell by simple observation, what a person is;(Deut.22:5)
➁ Satan hates God and human beings and does all he can do to hurt both parties.
➂ Therefore, Satan lies to someone and convinces them that they can only be happy If they are something else, so in their deceived state, they identify as something else.
➃ Plus(an added bonus), is Satan knows that God hates rebellion and this whole issue, of calling yourself something that you aren’t, is height of rebellion against your creator.
------------------------
➀So, if God created you as a Honda, than you are going to run a long time.
➁But if God created you as a Ford, than you will be dead much faster.
➂And forcing Honda parts onto yourself, will bring your death even faster.(Satan loves that)
➃But the Bible says, that if we strive to please God by honoring Him and being the best  Ford we can be, than He could see to it, that we keep running a lot longer than expected.
So honor God and be what you were created as and be a blessing to yourself and the Lord and others. (Satan hates that!)

Not respecting God’s Word:
Over the years I have come to regard those who don’t see the importance of “sticking to the KJB”, as not having a “proper respect for God’s Word”.
Respecting the Bible, is demonstrated by seeing the importance of every “jot and tittle” in God’s Word!
I remember year ago, as a young Christian, reading Luke for the first time and coming to Luke 24:39......
 “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.”
..... and seeing the significance of Jesus saying “flesh and bones”, instead of the term “flesh and blood”;
And I remember, remarking to a co-worker, who was a “preacher boy”, attending a local Bible college, how interesting it was, that Jesus didn’t say “flesh and blood”, because his Glorified Body did not contain any “blood”!
I remember this “student of the Bible”, lecturing me, that I was making too big of a deal, out of “these words”!  He said... “it doesn’t matter if it says flesh and bones or flesh and blood....”
This is a perfect example of “a lack of respect for God’s Word”!
 

Over the years, I have ran into a situation(like the one that I am about to relay), a few times and I am challenged each time, with the temptation to ignore what I know Scripture says and do what “seems best” to me; But praise the Lord, so far I have always done the right thing.

First example: About a year ago, I was approached by a college student(at the local state college that I regularly visit to minister), and as usual, he wanted to know why I am always sitting at that table reading my Bible(haven’t I finished it yet?). After explaining that you can never really finish the Bible(because it’s God’s Word), I continued with my standard operating procedure in cases like this... I ask if the person is born again(or saved if they don’t know what that means), and this kid said that he wasn’t.
So I started off sharing the Gospel with him: And as usual I followed that up with my personal testimony of how I got saved and what happened to me following my salvation.  But on this occasion, the young man I was talking to(Nick), didn’t respond as expected(by either accepting or rejecting the Gospel), but by simply not responding.  After telling him that “saying anything but yes to Jesus is saying NO”, he responded that the “conviction” that I described, that was necessary for salvation, just wasn’t their.
I further explained that this feeling of conviction, is actually a result of “believing the message of the Gospel”(being convinced), and having a “fear of going to hell”!  That is, when you truly believe the message of the Gospel, than you will believe that there is a “real hell” that you are going to spend eternity in, if you reject Christ.  He continued to explain that he did feel convicted.  He said, “he want to believe”, but the conviction just wasn’t their.  
At this point I quoted Ephesians 2:8-9 ....
V.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
[it is] the gift of God:    V.9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
And explained that for salvation to truly be by “unmerited favor”, than it was necessary for God to “place this faith into your heart”!  You can’t “work up” the faith to be saved.  Nor was salvation possible by simply having all the right information(knowledge alone, can’t save anybody).  God has to give you, the faith to believe.
Well our conversation ended, with me giving him a pocket size New Testament and encouraging him to keep seeking for salvation in Jesus.
------------------------
Oh, by the way; I know of several IFB’s that would have simply gotten him to recite a prayer; Then stamped him saved.  (And he was open and I could have done that!)
  But I didn’t!
 

This is a very important issue and Scripture makes it very simple:
But, Satan has used “religion” to gum it all up.
Here is what the Bible says about Salvation...... Romans 10:8-11
V.8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart:
that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
V.9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
V.10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness;
and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
V.11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
➀This tells us, that Salvation includes a “verbal declaration” from us!
➁And that declaration includes the name of Jesus!
➂While simultaneously believing in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead!
➃And(V.11), that those who truly believe, will not be ashamed to make this declaration!
➄Then Verses 13, tells us that this declaration, comes in the form of a “call”(appeal)!
------------------------
Oh, by the way: Verse 14, does not say what most people thinks it says!
When you carefully study verses 14-21, you will see that verse 14 is a rebellious challenge to God, by a “disobedient and gainsaying people”.
The fact is, the whole world stands “guilty” before God; Even if they have not been visited by a preacher, because of “natural revelation”(V.18).
 

Believing is the point of salvation and that saving faith is always coupled with a call upon the Lord for salvation. Just as a man cannot "say a prayer" to be saved he cannot "believe" and keep silent. Either by calling on the Lord for it, asking for it, acknowledging it, being led in it, or etc. It makes little difference exactly how it is said but that one does call.  

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Matthew 7:7-9 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groaning swhich cannot be uttered.

Hello Genevanpreacher
I am glad to respond to your concern about my transmission of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: This is such an important issue, and I always want to be 1000% in line with God’s Word in this area.
You are right, that my Gospel presentation is laced with this phraseology; And this is based upon the rock that I find in Romans 10:13, that I have placed my eternity on.
As you do, I also frown upon that “magical prayer” idea; But as you can see I make it clear that "believing" is what Salvation is all about.
Here is a part of my posted conversation, that explains what I am talking about; Talking to this guy, in the 3rd person, I said.....
“And if Ahmed will believe that Jesus died to pay for his sin and to give him a victory over his sin, than Ahmed can be saved today, by asking Jesus to save him.  This is how Don got saved.”
You notice, how believing comes before calling.
------------------------
Also, your statement that the instruction in Verse 13, is a “post-salvation” instruction, reminds me of the old argument about what happens first at the moment of salvation; Our justification, or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or our reconciliation, or our inheritance in Christ, etc.
In reality, all of what we get at salvation, is simultaneous.

Sorry for such a brief response, but it’s after midnight right now and I have other things to do.
Please, lets discuss this further.

Greetings to all, and thanks to each of you for sharing in this discussion.
Sorry for the confusion, but the main point of this thread is the issue of being drawn away from the "awe", that we should have for God’s Word!
The fact is, because it is “God’s Word”, means that not a single word of it, can be a result of man’s intellect or investigation...... (2 Peter 1:20)
“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”
------------------------
Peter, in trying to get this point across, tells us that any information from “any source”, can not be compared to the supernatural reliability of God’s Word:
Not even GOD’S VOICE, SPOKEN FROM HEAVEN! ...... (2 Peter 1:16-19)
V.16 ¶ For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
V.17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
V.18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
V.19 ¶ We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Even though Peter was an “eyewitness” of God’s voice from heaven, declaring who Jesus was; Peter tells us, that this eyewitness account, “holds less validity” than the words of the Bible!
------------------------
The fact that this is even an issue, on a IFB forum, demonstrates how our attitude about the Bible has been effected by today’s Satanic attacks.
 

From the very beginning(Genesis 3:1), the target of Satan’s attack has not been on the institution of the Church, but on the Church’s foundation; God’s Word, ... “Yea, hath God said?”
The “subtle attack”, that this thread is about is the lie, that Luke was a gentile!
On the surface, this may not seem like a very important issue or question; But the door that this opens, is very important.
If a Believer is convinced that Luke was a gentile, the door that this opens, is the lie that everything that God used Luke to write, will be influenced by the fact that He is a gentile.
------------------------
The Lord foresaw this lie, therefore he gave us Luke 1:1-4
V.1 ¶ Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
V.2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
V.3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
V.4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
On the surface, this passage seems to support the notion, that the book of Luke, was influenced by Luke’s personal opinions....
“Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word”
This appears to be saying, that Luke was going to relay to Theophilus, information that he had acquired by interviews with “eyewitnesses”.  But just as with the rest of the entire Bible, you need to dig deeper(pay closer attention), to get the truth about what is being said.  
Therefore, it becomes clear when you closely study verses 1-4, that Verse 2, is talking about all the secular writings about the Lord and His life that were being written.  But then we come to verses 3 & 4.  In Luke 1:3, Luke tells us, that what he says in Luke, comes from a “perfect understanding of all things”.  
By the way, no human being can have “a perfect understanding of all things”!  We are all sinners and all of “our opinions” have been tainted by sin!  Therefore, where did Luke get this “perfect understanding”.  Look at the next 4 words, “from the very first”.  These 4 English words, are translated from 1 Greek word(anothen), and in this context, that means “from the LORD”!
Other places you find this word is.......
"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." (John 3:7)
and
"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." (John 19:11)
------------------------
Therefore the LORD used Luke to give us GOD’S WORDS, not man’s words!
And if we can be convinced that Luke was a Gentile, than this is a subtle attack on God’s Word!
 

From the very beginning(Genesis 3:1), the target of Satan’s attack has not been on the institution of the Church, but on the Church’s foundation; God’s Word, ... “Yea, hath God said?”
The “subtle attack”, that this thread is about is the lie, that Luke was a gentile!
On the surface, this may not seem like a very important issue or question; But the door that this opens, is very important.
If a Believer is convinced that Luke was a gentile, the door that this opens, is the lie that everything that God used Luke to write, will be influenced by the fact that He is a gentile.
------------------------
The Lord foresaw this lie, therefore he gave us Luke 1:1-4
V.1 ¶ Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
V.2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
V.3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
V.4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
On the surface, this passage seems to support the notion, that the book of Luke, was influenced by Luke’s personal opinions....
“Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word”
This appears to be saying, that Luke was going to relay to Theophilus, information that he had acquired by interviews with “eyewitnesses”.  But just as with the rest of the entire Bible, you need to dig deeper(pay closer attention), to get the truth about what is being said.  
Therefore, it becomes clear when you closely study verses 1-4, that Verse 2, is talking about all the secular writings about the Lord and His life that were being written.  But then we come to verses 3 & 4.  In Luke 1:3, Luke tells us, that what he says in Luke, comes from a “perfect understanding of all things”.  
By the way, no human being can have “a perfect understanding of all things”!  We are all sinners and all of “our opinions” have been tainted by sin!  Therefore, where did Luke get this “perfect understanding”.  Look at the next 4 words, “from the very first”.  These 4 English words, are translated from 1 Greek word(anothen), and in this context, that means “from the LORD”!
Other places you find this word is.......
"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." (John 3:7)
and
"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." (John 19:11)
------------------------
Therefore the LORD used Luke to give us GOD’S WORDS, not man’s words!
And if we can be convinced that Luke was a Gentile, than this is a subtle attack on God’s Word!
 

Hello  Ukulelemike
I found your last posting here very interesting.  We can learn lots of lessons from it.
It is clear, that Satan is still hard at work, keeping everybody as far away from the true meaning of the “Easter” as he can.
But there are some things that bother me about your post.
------------------------
First you said......
“And here I thought most of us disregarded making our primary arguments based on the Greek, since the 'original Greek' doesn't exist......”
This is true, but it is “a lie”: The lie, that unbelievers have been feeding us for a little over 100 years now.  Although the original autographs do not exist, God’s Word has not been lost: God preserved it in the thousands of “reliable copies” that He saw to it, were kept for us in the “Majority Texts”.  These are God’s preserved Word!  And they are not “questionable”!  God has preserved His Word in Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic!
------------------------
Next you said......
“So I am going to go off the Bible, KJV, period, and make my arguments based therein.”
This is a gutsy and bold statement, that I have made myself over the years.  But it’s Dangerous, bordering on “double inspiration”.  For sure the KJB, is “God’s Word”, but for English speaking people only!  Our love for the KJB, must not cause us to go off into error.
------------------------
Next you quoted this other “author”.......
“Since the word was used by Luke, the only gentile who wrote some of the New Testament, we can assume he was not speaking of Passover, since he didn't keep Passover, not being a Jew.........”
I have some “serious problems” with this statement; And I didn’t see you address them, so I will.
(1)First, this assumption, that Luke was a gentile; Is Biblically unsound.....
Romans 3:1-2
V.1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
V.2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
and
John 4:22
“Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.”
(2)And secondly(and more importantly), this statement shows a disrespectful attitude toward God’s Word.  Luke, was simply a “pen”, used by God to write God’s Word!  Although his writing style can be evaluated, because God used words from Luke’s own vocabulary, to write His Word.  The words Luke penned, were God’s Words; Therefore the idea that Luke injected his own personal views or prejudices is error.
------------------------
All of us, need to be careful(in these last days), and be dogmatic about our stands and attitudes about God’s Word!
 

Oh, by the way... In English the word “easter” means.... “From the East!”
Even though it may mean something else in another language(some false god).
And as we all should know, our Lord is soon going to break the “Eastern sky”!
"For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." (Matthew 24:27)
 

Hello John
In your OP, you added....  “but for different reasons.”
Well, my reason for believing that Easter is the correct word, rather than “Passover”, is because of who the Bible(and the book of Acts), is aimed at!
God(in His wisdom), knew that over the centuries after the English language was established and an English Bible was produced, that mainly Gentiles would be reading it;
And that most new Gentile converts would not know what time of year the Passover was being celebrated.
Therefore, it makes perfect sense, to translate this word as Easter!
 

Hello beameup
I also dislike the false doctrine of "replacement theology"; But I think it mainly applies to transferring promises God made to Israel, to the Church.
As for the idea that "backsliding" is not to be applied to New Testament Saints; I must disagree.  If what we see happening in Corinth wasn’t backsliding, I don’t know what it was.
Also, we see the end results of being a backsliding Christian, in 1 John 2:28....  
"And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."
------------------------
As always, I have not arrived yet; So I could be wrong.
So let me know, if you find a flaw in my logic.
 

Hello beameup
I also dislike the false doctrine of "replacement theology"; But I think it mainly applies to transferring promises God made to Israel, to the Church.
As for the idea that "backsliding" is not to be applied to New Testament Saints; I must disagree.  If what we see happening in Corinth wasn’t backsliding, I don’t know what it was.
Also, we see the end results of being a backsliding Christian, in 1 John 2:28....  
"And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."
------------------------
As always, I have not arrived yet; So I could be wrong.
So let me know, if you find a flaw in my logic.
 

Hello Genevanpreacher
I am glad to respond to your concern about my transmission of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: This is such an important issue, and I always want to be 1000% in line with God’s Word in this area.
You are right, that my Gospel presentation is laced with this phraseology; And this is based upon the rock that I find in Romans 10:13, that I have placed my eternity on.
As you do, I also frown upon that “magical prayer” idea; But as you can see I make it clear that "believing" is what Salvation is all about.
Here is a part of my posted conversation, that explains what I am talking about; Talking to this guy, in the 3rd person, I said.....
“And if Ahmed will believe that Jesus died to pay for his sin and to give him a victory over his sin, than Ahmed can be saved today, by asking Jesus to save him.  This is how Don got saved.”
You notice, how believing comes before calling.
------------------------
Also, your statement that the instruction in Verse 13, is a “post-salvation” instruction, reminds me of the old argument about what happens first at the moment of salvation; Our justification, or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or our reconciliation, or our inheritance in Christ, etc.
In reality, all of what we get at salvation, is simultaneous.

Sorry for such a brief response, but it’s after midnight right now and I have other things to do.
Please, lets discuss this further.

Hello Genevanpreacher
I am glad to respond to your concern about my transmission of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: This is such an important issue, and I always want to be 1000% in line with God’s Word in this area.
You are right, that my Gospel presentation is laced with this phraseology; And this is based upon the rock that I find in Romans 10:13, that I have placed my eternity on.
As you do, I also frown upon that “magical prayer” idea; But as you can see I make it clear that "believing" is what Salvation is all about.
Here is a part of my posted conversation, that explains what I am talking about; Talking to this guy, in the 3rd person, I said.....
“And if Ahmed will believe that Jesus died to pay for his sin and to give him a victory over his sin, than Ahmed can be saved today, by asking Jesus to save him.  This is how Don got saved.”
You notice, how believing comes before calling.
------------------------
Also, your statement that the instruction in Verse 13, is a “post-salvation” instruction, reminds me of the old argument about what happens first at the moment of salvation; Our justification, or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or our reconciliation, or our inheritance in Christ, etc.
In reality, all of what we get at salvation, is simultaneous.

Sorry for such a brief response, but it’s after midnight right now and I have other things to do.
Please, lets discuss this further.

Is Repentance part of the Gospel?
I have been playing chess for about 40 years or so and a few years ago, I found a site on the net, where I can play up to 12 games simultaneously, with people all over the world, for free.
I always set each game up, giving each of us “10 days to move”, so that this doesn’t place demands upon my time; (I regularly take a week without logging in, if I am busy), without losing a game by “timing out”.
Anyway, yesterday I got a personal message from someone named “Ahmed”, living  in Cairo Egypt: (He sent me, a personal message through this chess program!)
Note: On the settings part of this site, I can tell about myself; Even though I posted few personal details about myself, I did include this message......
Chess is fun, but it’s just a game. Life is real and it is going to end for all of us.
Therefore, BE READY for eternity and trust Jesus as your personal savior right now.
10 seconds after you die, will be too late.
(1) We are all sinners.. Romans 3:23
(2) Our sin will send us to hell, but God wants
         to give us the gift of eternal life...Romans 6:23
(3) He did this, by sending His Son Jesus,
         to die in our place on the cross... Romans 5:8
Knowing these three facts, opens the door for you to go to heaven. But you don’t go through that door, until you “ask Jesus to save you”....
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Romans 10:13
Ask Jesus to save your soul today and I will see you in heaven one of these days!
Anybody who clicks on my “user name”, can access this message.
--------------------------------------------------
Here was Ahmed’s response to this message..........
Hello, Don,
No one should be worshipped, begged, or asked for salvation but Allah, the creator of all creatures. Allah or the god father as you call it in Christianity, created evrything and all people, including jesus. Jesus is merely a creature of god as much as you and me and all other people. So plesse ask Allah and only Allah to forgive you.
Regards, Ahmed.
--------------------------------------------------
My first response to Ahmed............
Hi  Ahmed
I am glad to hear from you.  Of all the thousands of religions in the world, we can know that Christianity is the only true faith, because of “the Bible”.  The Bible tells us of God’s Character and that one of the most important things to know about God, is “His Holiness”!  God, is so Holy, that He hates “sin”, above all else; We can never come into his presence in our sinful state.  Christianity is unique, because it is the only faith that takes care of our sin Problem, by God having sent His Son Jesus, to die in our place.  Forgiveness must be paid for.  We either pay for it ourselves, by going to hell; Or we let Jesus pay for it, by His death on the cross; By asking Him to save us.  Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
See you later, Don
--------------------------------------------------
Ahmed’s quick response.....
Are you saying that by just believing in jesus and asking him for forgiveness I will grant peace in the eternal life
--------------------------------------------------
My response to Ahmed......
No, this is what “God says” in the Bible!  We will never be able to fully understand why God would sacrifice His only Son to save us, but He did.  I hope, that you are able to get hold of a Bible, and read it for yourself.  God’s Word(the Bible), is this world’s only source of Truth!  But until then, the Bible says that “real salvation”, is as close to you, as your mouth.  The Bible says.... "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:9-10)
--------------------------------------------------
Ahmed’s next response.....
So, let's say, if I steal, lie, or fornicate, or di whatever sin in this world, then l would be salvaged in the afterlife by just brlieving in jesus and asking him for forgiveness
--------------------------------------------------
My next response to him......
The Bible says, that all sin has a root!  And that root is, Rejecting Jesus Christ as your savior..... “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:18).  The Bible tells us, that it’s not stealing or lying or fornication that sends us to hell, it is Rejecting Jesus.  And the Bible also tells us, that Accepting Jesus as our Savior, will give us a victory over all of these sins, Because God will come to live within us.  Jesus said.... "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Revelation 3:20)
--------------------------------------------------
Ahmed’s next response.....
Still so many people beieve in just and they still do all the sins of the world, why didnt jesus forbid them
--------------------------------------------------
My response to this......
The fact is, anybody can “say” that they “believe”, even if they don’t truly believe.  And if you don’t truly believe, than no change is made in you.  We will find a lot of things that God does or doesn’t do and not understand them; But the main fact that we must remember, is that God loves “us”! And He wants to save “us”!  It does not matter, what the rest of the world does, it only matters what we do!  God loves Ahmed and sent Jesus to die for Ahmed to pay for Ahmed’s sins.  And if Ahmed will believe that Jesus died to pay for his sin and to give him a victory over his sin, than Ahmed can be saved today, by asking Jesus to save him.  This is how Don got saved.
--------------------------------------------------
Ahmed’s next response.....
So why jesus doesn't save those who believe in him but still do sins
And why doesn't he forbid them from doing sins in the first place. ?
--------------------------------------------------
My response to these questions......
I am happy to answer any question that you have, and these are two great questions;
Your first question was....
“So why jesus doesn't save those who believe in him but still do sins”
The fact is, “He does” save those who are still sinning!  We don’t have to “stop sinning” to get saved; We must only be sorry for our sin and “willing” to turn from it.  We are not saved by anything that “we do”, but by “simply believing” that Jesus died for us on the cross, to pay for our sins: Then was buried and three days later, rose from the grave to prove who He was!  The fact is, being saved does not make us “perfect”, it only gives us the ability to overcome our sinful acts.
Your second question was.......
“And why doesn't he forbid them from doing sins in the first place?”
God made human beings, with a “free will”, because He wants us to love and worship Him, voluntarily.  If God forced all of us to live right, than we would be robots not human at all; And God would not get any glory out of that!  God does not “force” anyone to do anything; We must trust Him, because we want to or it wouldn’t be real.
See you later
--------------------------------------------------
Ahmed’s next response(a few house ago).....
So sinnerss will be saved too.
--------------------------------------------------
My response to this(just now)......
Yes!   If they believe on  Jesus "alone", for their salvation.  This is called "the Gospel": (The good news)
==============================
There you have it!  The reason for this thread, is because of what went through my mind, as I typed this final response!  Repentance is not in it!  But it is almost identical to Philip’s response to the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:37.

About 20 years ago, I realized that there were two kinds of “repentance”:
(1) Repentance with the hands: (Where we stop sinning!)
(2) Repentance with the heart: (Where we feel sorry for our sin!)
The second is needed for salvation, while the 1st is needed to grow in Christ!
------------------------
Any time that I have shared this observation with “anyone”(other preachers), I have been burned at the stake as a heretic.  But the Bible seems to agree with it!
 

My wife and I regularly sing in Church; And there is a song, that she has suggested that we sing called, “just one more soul”; But I have been against the idea, because I just didn’t like this song.  And this morning the Lord has shown me why “I don’t like it”: Because it is UnBiblical;  In several ways.
Here is a line from the first verse.... “The preachers are weary, the singers are tired”:
For one thing, if this is the case in your Church, than the preachers and singers, need to either find some other ministry to do(one God is calling them to), or they need to get saved.  Because doing things in the Spirit, will not be wearisome.
But the next line, just might be right.... “The Church as we know it, is losing its fire”
For sure, when members of a local Church are “laboring in the flesh”, they will lose God’s fire!
And the last line of the first verse, gives the wrong response to this problem.....
“But we must determine to keep pressing on”!
If your laboring in the flesh, “more labor” is not the answer!
Jesus said......
"Come unto me, all [ye] that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:28)
------------------------
Sure enough, there is some “work” involved, in staying close to the Lord; Such as Prayer and Bible study and Church attendance!  But, the fruit of this labor, is learning to follow the Lord’s instructions: And His instructions are not Burdensome!  They are fun!
 

My wife and I regularly sing in Church; And there is a song, that she has suggested that we sing called, “just one more soul”; But I have been against the idea, because I just didn’t like this song.  And this morning the Lord has shown me why “I don’t like it”: Because it is UnBiblical;  In several ways.
Here is a line from the first verse.... “The preachers are weary, the singers are tired”:
For one thing, if this is the case in your Church, than the preachers and singers, need to either find some other ministry to do(one God is calling them to), or they need to get saved.  Because doing things in the Spirit, will not be wearisome.
But the next line, just might be right.... “The Church as we know it, is losing its fire”
For sure, when members of a local Church are “laboring in the flesh”, they will lose God’s fire!
And the last line of the first verse, gives the wrong response to this problem.....
“But we must determine to keep pressing on”!
If your laboring in the flesh, “more labor” is not the answer!
Jesus said......
"Come unto me, all [ye] that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:28)
------------------------
Sure enough, there is some “work” involved, in staying close to the Lord; Such as Prayer and Bible study and Church attendance!  But, the fruit of this labor, is learning to follow the Lord’s instructions: And His instructions are not Burdensome!  They are fun!
 

My wife and I regularly sing in Church; And there is a song, that she has suggested that we sing called, “just one more soul”; But I have been against the idea, because I just didn’t like this song.  And this morning the Lord has shown me why “I don’t like it”: Because it is UnBiblical;  In several ways.
Here is a line from the first verse.... “The preachers are weary, the singers are tired”:
For one thing, if this is the case in your Church, than the preachers and singers, need to either find some other ministry to do(one God is calling them to), or they need to get saved.  Because doing things in the Spirit, will not be wearisome.
But the next line, just might be right.... “The Church as we know it, is losing its fire”
For sure, when members of a local Church are “laboring in the flesh”, they will lose God’s fire!
And the last line of the first verse, gives the wrong response to this problem.....
“But we must determine to keep pressing on”!
If your laboring in the flesh, “more labor” is not the answer!
Jesus said......
"Come unto me, all [ye] that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:28)
------------------------
Sure enough, there is some “work” involved, in staying close to the Lord; Such as Prayer and Bible study and Church attendance!  But, the fruit of this labor, is learning to follow the Lord’s instructions: And His instructions are not Burdensome!  They are fun!
 

My wife and I regularly sing in Church; And there is a song, that she has suggested that we sing called, “just one more soul”; But I have been against the idea, because I just didn’t like this song.  And this morning the Lord has shown me why “I don’t like it”: Because it is UnBiblical;  In several ways.
Here is a line from the first verse.... “The preachers are weary, the singers are tired”:
For one thing, if this is the case in your Church, than the preachers and singers, need to either find some other ministry to do(one God is calling them to), or they need to get saved.  Because doing things in the Spirit, will not be wearisome.
But the next line, just might be right.... “The Church as we know it, is losing its fire”
For sure, when members of a local Church are “laboring in the flesh”, they will lose God’s fire!
And the last line of the first verse, gives the wrong response to this problem.....
“But we must determine to keep pressing on”!
If your laboring in the flesh, “more labor” is not the answer!
Jesus said......
"Come unto me, all [ye] that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:28)
------------------------
Sure enough, there is some “work” involved, in staying close to the Lord; Such as Prayer and Bible study and Church attendance!  But, the fruit of this labor, is learning to follow the Lord’s instructions: And His instructions are not Burdensome!  They are fun!
 

Excellent post Don:
Especially this
Most(if not all), of the IFB pastors that I know, seem to “go far beyond Arminianim”, in this area and regularly make it clear, that they believe, “that if they had not witnessed to particular people that trusted Christ, than those people would not have gotten saved!”
This flies in the face of Scripture, mind you this is an error committed by some VERY well meaning people with  a heart for the Lord, but it is not correct to say that people are going to hell "BECAUSE" they are not being witnessed to. 
I recall a missionary to Thailand at our church on deputation who (and he was genuinely heart-broken for the people there) who, in tears, explained that people were by the millions going to hell "because" we have not brought them the gospel as of yet.  While I appreciate his heart for the Lord, and we still supported him, this was not Biblically accurate.God has not given us control, either through our diligence or negligence to either condemn others to hell or to prevent it.  If we fail to Evangelize, than someone else will always take our place.  No one is irreplaceable, and that is a fearful thing.
 
 
I Sam 15:28  And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou.    I note an interesting thing in this passage: God had chosen and prepared David to be the future king of Israel long before this happened.  This neighbor God has in mind has already been chosen and prepared.  God already knew of whom he was speaking.  The next chapter begins with this: I Sam 16:1 And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons.   God, in his providence and foreknowledge had provided for Saul's replacement long before Saul erred in time.  God explains just this same mystery to Elijah as he caterwauls about being the only person who stands up for YHWH   Rom. 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.  
Rom. 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. You also make a great point Don with this phrase: Paul, didn’t seem all that concerned about “soul winning”: But simply getting the Gospel out!     I couldn't agree more.  This may sound like splitting hairs, but it isn't.  Paul's job was to preach the gospel and let the Holy Spirit go to work.  The "elect" are so, from the beginning of creation and their election is "In Christ" who IS God's "elect".  Isa. 41:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.   Any individual person's status as being "elect" is contingent upon their being in Christ......and God will find a way to reach those who will respond to his gospel with that gospel and if WE don't do it...............someone else will.