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Everything posted by Donald

  1. Galatians 6:6-8 V.6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. V.7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. V.8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. ------------------------ “Let him that is taught in the word” (THE LOCAL CHURCH MEMBER) “communicate unto him that teacheth” (GIVE TO THE WORK OF THE CHURCH) BECAUSE THE CHURCH NEEDS MONEY TO KEEP THE LIGHTS ON! “in all good things.” (GIVE OF YOUR GOOD THINGS TO YOUR CHURCH) “Be not deceived;” (HERE IS AN AREA IN OUR LIVES, THAT CAN CAUSE US TROUBLE) WE CAN DECEIVE OURSELVES INTO THINKING OUR LOCAL CHURCH DOESN’T NEED OUR SUPPORT. “God is not mocked:” (THE LORD IS TOTALLY AWARE OF OUR HEARTS ATTITUDE TOWARD OUR LOCAL CHURCH:) AND HE WILL RESPOND ACCORDINGLY. “for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.” (WHERE WE PUT OUR MONEY AND SUPPORT WILL BRING FORTH SOME KIND OF FRUIT IN OUR LIVES) “For he that soweth to his flesh” (SOWING TO THE FLESH IS FORGETTING ABOUT THE LORD AND OTHERS IN OUR LIFE’S RESOURCES) “shall of the flesh reap corruption;” (THIS PRACTICE OF NOT CONSIDERING THE LORD AND HIS MINISTRY TO YOUR LIFE AND THE LIVES OF OTHERS, WILL BRING FORTH CORRUPTION IN YOUR LIFE) “but he that soweth to the Spirit” (SOWING TO THE SPIRIT IS REMEMBERING THAT THE LORD HAS GIVEN YOU EVERYTHING YOU HAVE AND BEING WILLING TO USE IT FOR HIS WORK IN YOUR LIFE AND THE LIVES OF OTHERS) “shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” (THE THINGS WE DO WITH OUR RESOURCES DIRECTLY EFFECTS OUR LIVES HERE AND OUR LIFE IN ETERNITY)..... Luke 16:11 “If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true [riches]?”
  2. Hello Standing Firm In Christ Let me be perfectly honest; I never thought in a millions years that I would ever be even considering “questioning” the Doctrine of tithing; But my previous encounters on this site and my personal insistence that others produce SCRIPTURE to back up their beliefs, has caused me to apply that same rule to myself. Tithing is something that I was taught from a very young age as a Christian, and I have never questioned it: Because I can see it in the Bible and I couldn’t see any other way that God’s Church could keep it’s doors open. Now this second statement about needing money from God’s people to keep the Church’s doors open, can clearly been seen in Galatians 6: (but is this a tithe) And just because the Bible “says something” about tithing, doesn’t always mean that it means what I think it says. ------------------------ Probably the one thing that has opened my mind to even consider “questioning my practice of tithing”, is my present pastor’s attitude toward giving. He makes it clear, that he doesn’t question ANYTHING he does that gets people in Church to give their money; Because he honestly believes that “they can’t ever hurt themselves, giving to God’s work”. Now this “may” be true, but it has opened the door for him to get very creative and bold, in his methods of getting people to “give”. ------------------------ So now you know, where I am coming from in this discussion.
  3. Good morning Steve In your response to “Standing Firm In Christ”, you said........ “Not arguing about the tithe....just saying that I think your interpretation of Gal. 6 is incorrect. "Communication" in the passage is a reference to giving, albeit not tithing. Galatians 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. Philippians 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. Hence we interpret the unclear passage of Gal. 6:6 in light of the crystal clear passage of Phil 4:15 - "as concerning giving and receiving..." Scripture defines itself. It is about giving to the preacher who teaches "good things." It fits this cross-reference: 1Ti 5:17 ¶ Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.” I agree about the meaning of the word “communicate” in this passage and elsewhere; (And “Standing Firm In Christ”’s contention that “the context” doesn’t agree with that definition, doesn’t hold water; Because the words are what make the context.) But my question to you is, are you saying that you don’t think Galatians 6: is talking about tithing? And if you believe in tithing, what Scriptures to you use to support that belief? See you later
  4. Hello Steve Thanks for the link........ http://www.onlinebap.../15472-tithing/ But I was very surprised(and disappointed), after looking over all 45 posts on this thread, and all I saw was “opinion”, after “opinion”, after “opinion”, after “opinion”, after “opinion” etc,... I NEVER saw EVEN ONE SCRIPTURE REFERENCE, with the exception of one vague reference to Matthew 18:, ?? ------------------------ I sited two SCRIPTURES and Standing Firm In Christ, responded with a handful of SCRIPTURE references..... This is how Christians are to get to the bottom of any issue! -------------------------------------------------- Hello Standing Firm In Christ Thank you for your response: You said and referenced..... “Well, for one, it was not money.” “Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.” Deuteronomy 14:22 This could be because “money” was scarce. So they tithed with what they had. ------------------------ You also said and referenced..... “It was for the children of Israel, not other nations” “These [are] the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.” Leviticus 27:34 I agree; Just as the Tithe, is not for the unsaved to pay. ------------------------ Next you said and referenced..... “It was to be given to the Levites” Numbers 18:24-26 V.24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer [as] an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance. V.25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, V.26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, [even] a tenth [part] of the tithe. and “And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.” Nehemiah 10:38 Your second reference explains the first. The Levites were to also Tithe: (A 10th of the tithe they received). ------------------------ You continued with......... “It was an ordinance” “Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept [them]. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?” Malachi 3:7 Some would say, that God’s people had left the LORD by going away from His ordinances: And that here(in the following verses), is God’s answer to the question, “How shall we return”! So it’s not all that Clear, that “giving to the work of the Lord”, is included in the ordinances that they had forsaken. But let us for a minute, assume that it was....... Next you said..... “It was abolished by Jesus Christ Himself” Ephesians 2:14-15 V.14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]; V.15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; and Colossians 2:14 V.14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Here, your second reference seems to answer the question posed in the first reference. For sure, Christ abolished the “the law of commandments contained in ordinances”, but not all ordinances were bad for us..... He blotted out the ones that were “contrary to us”. And your third reference rejects itself(in this discussion), because in it’s context it is clearly talking about a changing of the law that was required, in order for Christ to be our High Priest. Hebrews 7:17-19 V.17 For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. V.18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. V.19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God. ------------------------ Also you said..... The Apostle Peter attested that those who teach the tithe (a part of the Mosaic Law) are tempting God (Acts 15:10 ) “Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?” Acts 15:10 This is clearly talking about making circumcision necessary of salvation. --------- Also you said..... “The Apostle taught that those who tithe (putting themselves under the Law from which all had been freed) are under a curse if they don't keep ALL the Law “ “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” Galatians 3:10 Now above you called Tithing “an ordinance” but here you are calling it “a law”. I will have to study this a little more, but I don’t think they are the same thing. ------------------------ Then finally you said.... “It was never taught by the Apostles... probably because of the fact that it had been abolished by Jesus Christ.” You did not respond to the other Scripture that I posted..... Galatians 6:6-8 V.6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. V.7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. V.8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Here the Apostle Paul seems to be teaching Tithing. ------------------------ I certainly don’t have all the answers, but I continue to be open for Scripture to teach me.
  5. This subject came up, because not only have I been hearing this “channel” message from my pastor over the last two years, but I have also heard this same message, from almost every guest speaker and visiting pastor that has come to our Church during that time. And the last time I heard it, was last Sunday night; When a visiting missionary on deputation, talked about it(in no uncertain terms), and he also pointed out how this was not your tithe, because as He put it.... “Our tithe is the Lord’s and He will get it one way or the other, by a flat tire or a broken water pipe, etc.” Now in my mind, I “accepted this”, because of what the Bible says in......... Mal 3:8-12 V.8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. V.9 Ye [are] cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, [even] this whole nation. V.10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it]. V.11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. V.12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts. Not only does God ask in this passage, “Will a man rob God?”, but in the New Testament we are told to support God’s Work........ Ga 6:6-8 V.6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. V.7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. V.8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Therefore, the issue of the “tithe” is somewhat settled my mind. But if this “channel teaching” stuff is not as widespread as some say here, than how or why does this message keep coming up in my Church? ------------------------ Another thing that I have been taught(and seen for myself in Scripture), is that the Tithe(10%) is certainly and Old Testament teaching, because the New Testament teaches that we owe the Lord 100%, therefore 10% is just kind of a starting place. Oh, by the way I don’t really want this thread to be hijacked over to a “tithe” thread, but if I can learn more clearly WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS about it, than so be it.
  6. A popular teaching in the IFB Churches that I have been in, is the idea that the Lord wants us to be channels of money... “When ever we receive unexpected money, we are to simply hold on to it and wait for the Lord to tell us who He wants us to give it to.” The result of being a good channel(we are told), is it proves to the Lord that you can be trusted with more and more money; Never using any of it for yourself but always giving it to others. Now this does sound appealing, but is it Scriptural? ------------------------ I personally know a pastor who practices it, yet regularly talks about the areas of “need” in his life and his family’s life. I can’t help but think that maybe the Lord’s intent, for some of this money that he gets, is to take care of him and his family’s needs. Note: Just so you know, this has nothing to do with our tithe. This is taught to be over and above our tithe. ------------------------ Can anybody give me some “Scripture” about being a channel, that I may be overlooking.
  7. As we all know Roman solders crucified Christ, but it was the Jewish rulers that were behind turning Jesus over to the Romans. And it was Satan, that was working behind scenes turning the Jewish people against Jesus. But what was it exactly that caused the Jews to so hate our Lord so much? Yes, He was preaching against their sins and they didn’t like it, but they were very religious people and they “preached” to each other, against “sin” every day. What was it that Jesus preached that got them so upset?..... Matthew 15:1-9 V.1 ¶ Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, V.2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. V.3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? V.4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. V.5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to [his] father or [his] mother, [it is] a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; V.6 And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. V.7 [Ye] hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, V.8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me. V.9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. ------------------------ Jesus was the sweetest most loving person to ever walk the Earth, but because He preached against the man-made doctrines of the Jews, they hated Him calling Him every name in the book, including a winebibber..... Luke 7:34 “The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!” -------------------------------------------------- The problem the LORD had with the Jews, was the fact that they started making up their own list of “sins”, that they judged everyone else by. This is a much more serious problem than people think.
  8. Hello swathdiver You said..... “Hide the biblical songs that glorify God in your heart Donald and you'll have no use for secular music, especially the kind typically found on the radio.” This is great advice, that I have followed over the years. I love and still use that old traditional music at Church and at home(“Power in the blood”, “Are you washed in the blood”), etc. (Hundreds & hundreds more). Also, the Church that I am now attending, uses the same kinds of songs in their worship service; And although I never make a bid deal out of it, I very rarely have to open a song book, because I know all of these songs by heart! For the last 20 years at my last pastorate, I was the song leader and we did not have a piano player(even though we has a piano), so we sang all of these songs a-cappella. I love this music and my mind and heart is filled with it all the time and IT’S GREAT. ------------------------ But the point of these threads, isn’t the fact that occasionally I like to listen to some secular music. The point is, “calling this practice SIN”, when no one has been able to show me a single Bible verse that tells me it is sin. The Bible says....... Psalms 119:11 “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” Your response is a vague reference to this verse; But what does this verse say? (If we hide GOD’S WORD in our hearts, is will help us NOT TO SIN!) Can’t you see the point that I am making!?!? GOD’S WORD, MUST BE OUR “ONLY” SOURCE OF DETERMINING WHAT IS SIN OR EVEN WHAT IS UNWISE! There are hundreds of things that God’s Word tells us are UNWISE, that are not a sin! (Can you show me “one single verse”, that tells us that secular music is unwise???) ------------------------ Some have said, that the issue of music should not be included in our list of “gray areas”, because “music is a more complicated subject”! This has yet been proved by Scripture, but what if it is! If this subject is so important, WHY DIDN’T GOD SPELL THIS OUT TO US IN HIS WORD?
  9. I only have a second to post this right now, but..... I wanted to make it CLEAR, that none of what I have been saying, is concerning “MUSIC USED IN MINISTRY”, or Church music. ------------------------ When we are ministering to others(or being ministered to ourselves), it is very important that Biblical, Christ centered music be used......... 2 Kings 3:10-15 V.10 And the king of Israel said, Alas! that the LORD hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab! V.11 But Jehoshaphat said, [is there] not here a prophet of the LORD, that we may enquire of the LORD by him? And one of the king of Israel’s servants answered and said, Here [is] Elisha the son of Shaphat, which poured water on the hands of Elijah. V.12 And Jehoshaphat said, The word of the LORD is with him. So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom went down to him. V.13 And Elisha said unto the king of Israel, What have I to do with thee? get thee to the prophets of thy father, and to the prophets of thy mother. And the king of Israel said unto him, Nay: for the LORD hath called these three kings together, to deliver them into the hand of Moab. V.14 And Elisha said, [As] the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, surely, were it not that I regard the presence of Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, I would not look toward thee, nor see thee. V.15 But now bring me a minstrel. And it came to pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the LORD came upon him. ------------------------ I have only been talking about, music that WE listen to, as a diversion and to relax. I personally believe that human beings, physically and emotionally need these times of relaxation.
  10. This is an interesting discussion, that Scripture does give some light on. But first..... back to the point of this thread. I had never heard that some pastors think that it is sin for a man to have facial hair. And I am sure that some others think that dark glasses are sin, or neck ties, etc. The list goes on and on. The bottom line is, none of these men can give a single Scripture to support their personal beliefs, yet you will hear it from their pulpits. The point of this thread, is that the Lord’s intent of our discussion of this subject is, to open our eyes, that any pastor who preaches against “facial hair” for instance, is hurting his congregation by preventing them from waiting to hear from the Lord, that they shouldn’t have facial hair. The same is true for EVERYTHING in this list of “things that some of us think are sin, but that the Bible is silent about”. If God didn’t want us to have facial hair, or listen to secular music, than HE WOULD HAVE TOLD US ABOUT IT IN HIS WORD!!! -------------------------------------------------- Oh, by the way; Although the Bible does not say how “long”, is too long for a man to wear his hair, it does say how “short” is too short for a woman.... 1 Corinthians 11:6 “For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.” “Shorn”, is a hair style. A woman should not have “shorn” hair.
  11. Good evening swathdiver I will briefly answer your question, before getting back to my responses to Steve. You asked...... “Donald, are you saying here that one can only really learn and grow through prayer and not the Bible, pastors or preachers?” Of course not...... Ephesians 4:11-12 V.11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; V.12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: ---------------- All of these elements are important and needed(God’s Word, prayer & preachers). But none of them can be put into a vacuum. You can’t say, “either believe the Bible or follow the Holy Spirit’s leadership”. Remember the Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible(He gave God’s Word to the men who pinned it). Therefore the Holy Spirit can never contradict Bible Doctrine. But He will contradict man’s doctrine, every time. And that is what this entire argument boils down to. “Bible Doctrine" or "man’s doctrine”. Now some have said, “what’s the harm with man’s doctrine, if it's good and protects us from getting away from the Lord?” And you and I may not see too much wrong with some good man’s teachings, that help us to stay out of trouble. But the Lord sure does see something wrong with it........ Mark 7:7 “Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.” According to Jesus, if we are teaching or following even “ONE” doctrine(teaching), that is from the mind of men, OUR WORSHIP BECOMES EMPTY AND WORTHLESS! See you later.
  12. Hello Steve, and thank you for responding. Because of the length of your response, I am only going to be able to respond to the first part it. The first part of your response has to do with Hebrews 5:14.. “But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” And here are your 4 responses to this part of my OP..... ------------------------ (1) We are to study the Scriptures and go by the Scriptures themselves to determine what is right and what is wrong. You are very inconsistent here. Later on in this post you complain about the “lack of Scripture” produced regarding labeling some things sin, but not supplying Scripture to prove that. Here you are saying that we don’t need Scripture, but we should learn to follow the Holy Spirit. Are you charismatic or something? This may be a typo, but here you said.... “You are very inconsistent here. Later on in this post you complain about the “lack of Scripture” produced regarding labeling some things sin, but not supplying Scripture to prove that.” You ask me to “provide Scripture” to prove that “you do not use Scripture in your responses to me”? Maybe I don’t understand this question. You also said.... “Here you are saying that we don’t need Scripture, but we should learn to follow the Holy Spirit. Are you charismatic or something?” As we both know, I have NEVER SAID, we don’t need Scripture! (As the first part of your paragraph states.) But what I have been saying is, we NEED the Holy Spirit’s help in our everyday lives, to know what “stands” we should be taking in our faith.... 1 John 2:27 “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” ------------------------ (2) “The passage you quote here has absolutely NOTHING to do with the questionable areas you are hung up on (music, TV, etc.) The “meat” as defined in the passage, and elsewhere is BIBLE DOCTRINE. Paul’s point here is that these Hebrew Christians should have been able to handle some heavy Bible doctrine (the doctrines he had been discussing), but they were not able to handle it because they had not grown. They were still on the milk. They were still babies that had not grown up. So your application is WAY OFF BASE.” First of all, as I made clear from my last response on this thread, I am not “hung up” on these things. In fact, I have NEVER made them an issue before, anywhere! Now, this passage has EVERYTHING TO DO with this discussion, because at the heart of the this subject is the issue of “Spiritual maturity”. Yes brother, the “meat” being talked about here does have to do with “being able to handle some heavy Bible doctrine”. Heavy Bible Doctrine, is what I have been laying on you. The Doctrine of “Being led of the Spirit, not the flesh”, for one. The Holy Spirit within every believer, will GUIDE that believer into ALL TRUTH! (Not popular opinion among most other IFB pastors, but TRUTH!) Praise the Lord, my application of this passage, is RIGHT ON TARGET! ------------------------ (3) This is why I have attacked the “silver bullet” system of cherry picking Bible verses to prove your point. The “silver bullets” are generally not applicable to your point. It does not invalidate them as Scripture – it just means that you have misappropriated it for your own ends. Your attack of what you call the “silver bullet system”(as you call it), is very interesting. Was Jesus “cherry picking Bible verses”? When He said..... Matthew 4:4 “But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” NO HE WASN’T! He was quoting Scripture to get His point across. What you are talking about here, is the practice of someone “Using Scripture out of context”, to prove their point. As I have demonstrated above, I have not done that with Hebrews 5:14. It says what it means and means what it says! ------------------------ (4) The role of the pastor is to teach the Bible. This stated repeatedly – Eph. 4:11, I Tim. 3:2, II Tim. 2:2, Titus 1:9, etc. While I understand that each Christian is to grow to a point where they can make a decision for themselves on these matters of conscience (i.e. “grey areas”), they initially do need someone to give them guidance. But even then, we as pastors are to direct them to the Bible. The Bible is the final authority. What I object to is your dismissal of the Bible as the final authority, and your use of “the leading of the Holy Spirit” instead. I have demonstrated that this is a charismatic, experiential teaching, void of Scripture, used to justify any and all manner of sin. This is a strong charge, and it would STICK, if the Bible didn’t say....... John 16:13 “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” Galatians 5:18 “But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.” Romans 8:14 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” To say nothing of this kind of leading.... Acts 16:6 “Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,” Acts 13:2 “As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.” Acts 10:19-20 V.19 ¶ While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. V.20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.” As you can see, the DOCTRINE of being led of the Holy Spirit, is not a charismatic teaching, but a “Bible teaching”! I will respond to your next point later.
  13. Hello wretched You said........ “If you were so convinced that the things you allow were right by God's Word (which is the only leading or "voice" we have by the way) then you wouldn't be trying so hard to obtain validation from others on this site.” As I have made it clear, from the time I came to this forum, “I have not arrived yet” and “I don’t have all the answers”. And to that end, “irishman’s” post(above), is exactly the ANSWERS that I am looking for. A GREAT RESPONSE, with lots of SCRIPTURE and no SARCASM! Irishman’s response has given me A LOT to study and think about, while your response is just telling me to “shut up”. ------------------------ By the way, I have NEVER POSTED THESE KINDS OF THREADS on any forum before. Most of my threads(dozens of them), over the years(in general Christian forums), have been in support of the KJB or defending the Deity of Christ or pointing out the error of women preachers or the error of celebrating Holy Week observances, etc.(The list seems to go on and on) Note:(I did post a copy of my first thread here, “promoting strength”, on another forum, but it was almost completely ignored.) But this is the first(active), forum, that I have found that is made up of IFB’s and I came here just to read what others have to say. Therefore “I was very surprised” when the Lord started giving me messages to be posted here: (what could anybody here need to be corrected about?) We are all Bible believing committed Baptists. Like I said in this OP. I have no ulterior motive at all. I was just passing by(this corner of the internet), and found a handful of fellow Baptists that are cut from the same cloth that I am. This just goes to show, that NONE OF US ARE PERFECT, and all of us(including me), should be open to correction or rebuke, because even though we are all doing the best we can to stay as close to the Lord as we can, the world or the flesh or the Devil, are going to try and get us off track. ------------------------ I think the “spark” that caused me to sit down yesterday and type out this OP, was the realization, of just how much I don’t know about what God truly thinks is acceptable in my life and how dependent I am upon “His peace”. In every aspect of my daily life(with those things that the Bible doesn’t speak about), I stop looking at it through my human eyes or by my human intellect, and instead seek, to draw neigh to God and allow “His peace” to direct me....... Colossians 3:15 “And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.” This is a much better way of determining what I should our shouldn’t be doing, than asking someone else what they think I should be doing.
  14. I have done some serious thinking & praying, in seeking “the Lord’s intention”, of the last few threads I have started here. I say “the Lord’s intent”, because I try very hard never to say or post ANYTHING, unless the Lord is laying it upon my heart. (First of all, just because the Lord laid these ideas upon my heart, does not mean that the resulting OP’s are anything special, or can’t be questioned or corrected.) The point being, of today’s thread, is to state what I feel may be God’s purpose in my last few messages. ------------------------ The subject that has been being discussed, is how Christians(pastors) with strong faith, are to encourage others to also develop “strong faith”, instead of “weak faith”. And one point that I have made, is that preaching against things that “are not sin”, actually hurt Christians, because it prevents them from learning to listen to the Holy Spirit’s instructions in their own life. The Bible says..... Hebrews 5:14 “But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” Scripture is clear, in this verse and many others; In order for a Christian to truly grow, in the Grace and Knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ, they must be taught by the LORD Himself. And the only way this can happen, is for them to “exercised” their conscience, “to discern both good and evil”. This can not be done, if their pastor is dictating his opinion of what is good or evil for them. ------------------------ In our past discussions, we have come to an impasse, because many here have decided that some things are “sin”, without being able to produce SCRIPTURE stating that they are sin. This discussion further broke down, when terms like “smoking gun Scriptures” and “silver bullet Scriptures” were criticized, as being inferior. This was the most troubling parts of our discussions, so far. God’s Word should NEVER be criticized or referred to as inferior, because it disagrees with our point view. We should allow THE BIBLE to change us and not sidestep it’s work, by this kind of verbal trickery. I was the one that started this line of thinking, by stating that someone here was looking for a “smoking gun” to prove his point. Now this wasn’t “exactly” a criticism; Because Scriptural truth is Scriptural truth, regardless. I just don’t think it’s wise, to ever search the Scriptures, to prove a preconceived point that we already believe. But smoking gun Scriptures are valid and I use them all the time; Just as Jesus did. Jesus used “smoking gun Scriptures”(Old Testament quotes), all the time, to prove His point. God Word is there, for us to search out the truth and NAIL IT DOWN! ------------------------ Therefore; The Point I think the Lord is trying to use me to make, is that in all of our preaching and warning others about the DESTRUCTIVE power of sin, we need to SPELL OUT to them, what sin is and what sin is not. Now this does not mean, that we are to promote(from the pulpit), that TV or secular music is something to seek after. Just as we need to be careful what we say behind the pulpit, that might lead someone in the opposite direction. I have personally heard a testimony of someone who tossed out their TV, because their pastor had innocently remarked that he didn’t watch TV. Then they told me, that later on when the pastor heard what some of his people were doing, made a public announcement that there was nothing wrong with TV and that he owned a TV for his wife and children to use, but just that he didn’t have the time for it. This forum is not the Church; Nor is it a pulpit. It is kind of like a street corner. This seems to be the perfect format, for things like this to be discussed. The warning in Romans 14:, about the “real danger” of casting a stumbling block before my brother, does not apply here, because no one here knows me. (I am a stranger on a street corner). Now if they overhear something that challenges their thinking and “exercises their senses and discernment”, praise the Lord. Also, more than one person here, stated that they never even listened to the “music” that I had posted, before it was removed. If you are one of those people, let me ask you to think about that decision. If the Person of the Holy Spirit was telling you not to listen, than praise the Lord, I am glad you didn’t. But.... if you didn’t listen to them because you were afraid they might harm you in some way, the Bible says....... 2 Timothy 1:7 “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” -------------------------------------------------- Just some food for thought!
  15. This is true; But you are forgetting THE NEXT VERSE........ “I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings.” (Jeremiah 17:10) I have been aware of Verse 9 for many years, therefore I daily(hourly), ask the LORD to search my heart and try my reins and reveal to me ANYTHING that I need to deal with. It is from this perspective that I am even able to minster. ------------------------ What I mean is, God takes “SIN” very seriously; And we can not be expected to be used by Him to minister to others, if we have known sin in our life....... Psalms 66:18 “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear [me]:” Therefore, we need to daily be dealing with our sin and asking the Lord to reveal anything in our life or our heart, that hinders us in any way, in order to be used by Him. That is; Even though I am a dirty rotten sinner and deserve to go to hell, I can’t stand behind a pulpit and preach, with “unconfessed sin in my life”; Because if I did, I would be on my own(in the flesh). ------------------------ So when I say the words, “I feel(in my heart)”, it is from this kind of daily self examination, that I am speaking.
  16. Good morning John and thank you for your response. I know that I may come-off as just a “trouble maker” here on this forum; But the last thing I want to do is cause trouble. I feel(in my heart), that the Lord has led me to say the things I have said, in an effort to “help people”, in their walk with the Lord and in their ministry to others. ------------------------ The fact is, you can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. Therefore if anything is to be accomplished in people’s hearts, they need to be provoked, so as to examine where they are really coming from. I praise the Lord, that I have been “PROVOKED” in the short time that I have been here. And this provocation has caused me to do some serious self examination. Brother, I am convinced that opening ourselves up to serious challenges about where we stand with the Lord, is one of the healthiest things we can do.
  17. -THE PROBLEM THAT WAS BEING ADDRESSED- This thread started out addressing a problem and it disintegrated into a thread about rock music. This was partially my fault for allowing it to go in that direction, but it needs to be put back on track. The problem being discussed here, is the production “weak Christians”. Christians that don’t know their Bible and are being led around by the nose, so that they aren’t forced to grow up in Christ. Clearly this is a real problem, because of the strong opposition I have received by addressing it....... 1 Corinthians 16:9 “For a great door and effectual is opened unto me, and [there are] many adversaries.” Now, I know that the opposition that Paul was talking about here was opposition to the Gospel; But there is also real opposition to “Bible truth”, intended to encourage people to grow up in Christ....... Ephesians 4:14 “That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;” If Satan can’t get a Christian to fall into sin and backslide, he will trick that Christian into majoring on minor things. So lets get back on track. ------------------------ In my OP, I stated that “pastors promote weakness” in there congregations, by getting away from the pure Word of God and micro-managing their people’s lives. Just as Christians need to be taught to “feed themselves” Spiritually; They also need to be taught the discernment needed to live healthy productive lives for Christ. Now this is not a problem at all with the liberal preacher; Because he is too busy watering down sin to preach against it. But it is a big problem with many IFB preachers, because although they want everyone to live Godly lives, they sometimes take the wrong path to get there. By the way, the WRONG PATH, is trying to be the Holy Spirit for other people. Two of the biggest ways, that a Christian learns to grow in Christ and live a Godly life,.... (1) Is by learning that God’s Word is the bottom line. (2) That the LORD Himself wants to teach them from His Word..... 1 John 2:27 “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.” This verse(and others like it), teach a wonderful truth. That is, that we don’t need other people, to tell us what we should be doing; All we need, is to learn to listen to the Lord more closely. The BIBLE TEACHES ME, that God’s Holy Spirit within my heart, WILL DIRECT ME into all truth. And that I can TRUST HIM, to keep me on “HIS STRAIGHT AND NARROW PATH”. Anyone who even hints that Christians can’t trust the Lord to guide them, is “Promoting weakness” in others.
  18. Hello again Steve It is always interesting to hear from you and I always seem to learn something from your responses. ------------------------ You said....... “Grey Area Theology" is an excuse for many to do what they want to because "the Lord has not spoken to me" on this issue. But that is the opposite of how a Christian is to act:” You are not the first Brother in Christ that I have met, that has QUESTIONED the FACT that our Heavenly Father is still alive and on His throne in heaven and is actively communicating with His children. This expressed ignorance of His close interaction with us, is simply a matter of a lack of faith on your part. ------------------------ As for Ephesians 5:10.......... As we all know, we can make the Bible say ANYTHING WE WANT, if we are willing to take verses out of CONTEXT. Clearly the CONTEXT of this thread, is a Godly Christian seeking God’s perfect will for their lives. Yet the CONTEXT of Ephesians 5:10 is a backslidden Christian who needs to be turned away from the wicked life he has fallen into..... “Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.” (Ephesians 5:14) And his wicked life is described in verses 3-5..... V.3 ¶ But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; V.4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. V.5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Now that is all I am going to say about Ephesians 5:, because I love God’s Word and every verse in the Bible is profitable to us; and I am not going to allow you to trick me into dismissing any of it. But to interject Scriptures addressing disobedient and backslidden Christians, into a thread that is encouraging honest and committed Christians to seek God’s perfect will for their life, is uncalled for. ------------------------ The dishonesty of your next paragraph is disappointing.... “We should not wait for the Lord to tell us what NOT to do, we should be busy proving that what we do is acceptable to God. While we are studying to prove what is or is not acceptable, the Lord will show us; but it is not something that we fold our hands, sit back, and just wait for this "mystical experience." This is dishonest, because you build straw men, so you can burn them down. (1)I have NEVER EVEN HINTED, that we should not be studying to show ourselves approved unto God. (2)And I have NEVER EVEN HINTED, that we should sit back and fold our hands and wait for the Lord to speak to us. But even your dishonesty, reveals your personal problems. You think, “We should not wait for the Lord to tell us what NOT to do...” But “WE” should decided for ourselves(and others), what NOT to do. And as for your attitude toward the great blessing of hearing from the Lord. You call it a "mystical experience." The real Christian life, is one where we are ALIVE IN CHRIST and are daily hearing from the LORD(in response to our prayers and study of His Word); While ALWAYS putting everything we HEAR through the test of God’s Word. ------------------------------- Next you said....... “The verse you quoted from Romans 10 has nothing to do with sanctification; the context is salvation.” You are half right. The context of Verse 3 is....... V.1 ¶ Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. V.2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. V.3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. The Jews as God’s people, got away from the LORD. And these three verses explain how they GOT AWAY FROM THE LORD. The Jewish people kind of did the same thing you are doing Steve. They added their own “rules” to God’s Word, in an honest attempt to “make themselves holier”. And as they were busy studying to prove what was or was not acceptable the LORD, they started writing down their man-made rules. This was called the Mishnah(the Jewish oral traditions). Anyway, in their attempt to be more acceptable to the LORD, the exact opposite happened; They began to lift their “man-made” rules above God’s Word itself..... Matthew 15:1-3 V.1 ¶ Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, V.2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. V.3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? The only GRAY AREA that I have brought up in this thread, is NFL football. And undoubtedly you have you own ideas about it’s acceptability: Your own tradition! Yes, Romans 10: is about Salvation and it’s relationship to Grace. But over the years of my study of God’s Word, I have seen over and over again, that “Sanctification”, is also a work of Grace. Briefly: We are not sanctified by keeping the law! We are sanctified by OBEDIENCE! That isn’t obedience to the Law, but to God’s instructions to us by His still small voice. Consider this verse..... 2 Corinthians 3:18 “But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.” Note: “beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord”, is what happens when a Christian daily studies God’s Word. It is like a mirror that shows us the truth about ourselves. We are sanctified by the Spirit of the Lord; As we daily study God’s Word and allow the Lord to speak to our hearts maturing us from glory to glory; Becoming more and more like the Lord Jesus Christ(the same image). In other words; I will never be SANCTIFIED by following your list of do’s and don’ts. True SANCTIFICATION only comes by following the LORD’s list of do’s and don’ts for us! That day that I obeyed the LORD’s instructions for me, not to watch football for that season, I was set apart unto God(sanctified), a little bit more. But this idea, of restricting myself from ANYTHING that I THINK, MIGHT be offensive to the Lord, doesn’t do anyone any good at all. ------------------------ Next you said.... Everything you say SOUNDS good, but when put to the test, it does not work. The other thread where we were discussing music demonstrated the following: 1. You are not truly willing to study a matter out for yourself 2. You are more intent on justifying your current position than truly examining it in light of Scripture 3. You are happy to use "grey area" theology as an excuse to justify your ignorance on a subject 4. You put the responsibility on OTHERS to prove you WRONG, when the Scriptures place the responsibility to YOU to prove something RIGHT (see above). The TEST you referred to, is YOUR PERSONAL TEST of righteousness. Praise the Lord, I am not going to stand before you at the Judgement seat of Christ, but before the Lord. It’s interesting that you have never met me, but have come to so many conclusions about me, simply because I break your #1 RULE IN LIFE, by listening to secular music. ------------------------ Next....you make yourself the judge... “While I will admit that there are SOME "grey areas" that we as brothers and sisters in Christ will disagree over, I don't think there are nearly as many "grey areas" as most want to believe. Those who are always wanting to discuss "grey areas" do so to justify things that the Scriptures CLEARLY speak against, but they refuse to accept what the Scripture says on the matter because they are mentally lazy. They demand the "silver bullet study method" instead of the Scriptural study method found in Isa. 28:9-11 - line upon line, precept upon precept (oops! back to Biblical "PRINCIPLES" again!), and "here a little, there a little." People don't like to study because it takes WORK, time, and effort. It makes them THINK. So they prefer to carry on in their ignorance falling back on this "grey area" excuse.” Who has made you the judge, of which gray areas are truly gray? ------------------------ You conclude by saying....... “I don't buy it. "Grey area theology" has become nothing more than a loose, charismatic-type liberation theology that relies more on a mystical experience to determine right and wrong over against the Holy Bible.” As far as I can tell, you have coined the phrase "Grey area theology", as another straw man, that you can burn down. I have NEVER heard this phrase before, but by introducing it into this thread, you are able to take another step to demonize me. My relationship with my Father in heaven, is not mysticism; But the Biblical method God has arranged for us to have daily communication and fellowship with him.
  19. Recently, on another thread I had a discussion about “avoiding sin”; But the fact is, “sin” isn’t the only thing we must avoid......... “Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,” (Hebrews 12:1) There can be things in our life, that can “harm us” Spiritually, that are not sin. What we need to do, is ask the LORD to identify these areas in our life(that are weighting us down), so that we can lay them aside. Then we should be sensitive to the Lord, “putting His finger”, on those areas in our life and then be willing to get red of them. -------------------------------------------------- -SOMETHING TO AVOID- When doing this, it is very important, that we avoid coming up with OUR OWN LIST of things that WE THINK are weighing us down.(Going ahead of the Lord) This is important because this is crossing a line. The line that I am talking about is going about to establish our own righteousness....... “For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” (Romans 10:3) This is, as real a trap of Satan, as getting our eyes of the mark or tempting us to sin. If Satan can get us concentrating on gray areas that the LORD hasn’t spoken to us about, this will distract us from any REAL PROBLEMS in our life. -------------------------------------------------- -WHAT I SUGGEST- I think that it is wise, for all of to KEEP, everything in our lives “on the table” all the time: and open for the Lord to “put His finger on” anything He wants, at any time He sees fit. I recall many years ago(September 1986), as I was leaving a meeting late one night, and driving home by myself; As I was in prayer, the LORD spoke to my heart and told me, not to watch any NFL football that season. Well, just as Abraham responded, when told to sacrifice Isaac, I immediately obeyed; Even though I was really looking forward to it that year. Well the Lord knew what He was doing, because just one month later, the Lord called me to my first Church and I was very busy during that time in my life; And football would have been a real distraction to me. Now there is NOTHING WRONG with NFL football(as long as you record the Sunday games and watch them after Church). But being obedient to the Lord is more important than anything else in our life.
  20. This question or issue about when the Church actually started is more important than you might think: Because it effects so many other Doctrines. The fact is, the Church was stared in Acts 2:, in the upper room. But some teach that the Church was in existence during the Lord’s Earthly ministry that is recorded in the Gospels: And to prove this they refer to the definition of the word “Church”(a called out assembly). And although the Church is a called out assembly, it is much more that. For instance, Jesus said....... “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:18) Now you could concentrate on the words, “I will build my church”(as being future-tense), but that is not a very strong argument. I prefer to look at the ROCK, the Lord is talking about. Peter wasn’t this ROCK, like the Catholics teach; So what was this rock. It was the statement that Peter had just made....... “And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:16) This fact(That Jesus is the Christ), is the ROCK that the Church is built upon. A called out assembly, can ONLY BE A CHURCH, if they are preaching that Jesus is the Christ. If they are preaching anything else, than they can’t be called “a Church”! So, how do we know for sure, that the Church didn’t exist during the Lord’s Earthly ministry as recorded in the Gospels..? Because of what Jesus said, a few verses later..... “Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.” (Matthew 16:20) The called out assembly in the Gospels WAS NOT THE CHURCH, because they were prevented from preaching that Jesus was the Christ. ------------------------ So, when did this all change?........ “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” (Acts 1:8) At this point in time, Jesus gave his disciples permission to preach that He was the Christ, and the next chapter in the Bible we have the birth of the Church recorded!
  21. Hello Steve You said....... This is leadership 101. As a God-called preacher, you should be aware of the fact that you are responsible for how you lead God’s people BY EXAMPLE as well as by teaching (I Timothy 4:12). The people you preach will do what you do. They will rarely – if ever – go beyond your standards, and generally stop short of your standards. Praise the Lord, I have been aware that others will(and have), followed my examples; Therefore I have been very careful to always be a “Godly” example to everyone I come in contact with. One of the examples that I have made sure to practice is avoiding the trap of legalism that seems to run through the IFB community. I am glad you brought up “standards”, because this is one of the watchwords of this error. For sure “standards” are important; I recently was able to set up a booth during a special day at a local college, where I have been ministering; And the Lord wonderfully blessed my ministry at this event. One of the ways I ministered was by posting banners on the wall beside my table; One of these banners said.... “You can face the challenge, of “Respecting diversity” while holding strong to “your” Biblical standards!” The point that I am making here, is that there is a GREAT DIFFERENCE between “Biblical Standards” and “Man-made standards”. Biblical Standards are based on “Biblical sound doctrine”(teachings that have a solid foundation in God’s Word). While “man-made standards”, are based upon perceived dangers or infractions. Also, I do not want anyone that follows my example, to “GO BEYOND” the Biblical Standards that I exemplify; Because this would mean going beyond Biblically Sound Doctrine. -------------------------------------------------- Next you said..... “If you say, I like this song by singer “ABC”, they will take that as a wholesale endorsement of that singer and everything that singer puts out. If you say, “I like country music,” They will take that as a blank check to listen to anything they want. So as a leader, we do better to err on the side of caution, knowing that our congregation is WATCHING us for clues as to how they ought to live. If we do something, it is a default permission to them to not only do the same, but only more so.” I have never(from behind a pulpit), stated that I liked any singer or song or genre; Although I may have pointed out the shortcomings of contemporary Christian music. That being said, I have made it clear that I am not the Holy Spirit and that I am not God’s thought police, set up by Him to tell anybody what to do or not to do(With the exception of always warning people against sin in any of it’s forms). When God set pastors as “examples to the flock”, these are examples of Godliness and personal commitment to the Lord and His Word. By the way, Godliness is not measured your opinion of my music choices, but by the dictates of God’s Holy Word! -------------------------------------------------- Your challenge to me........ “But you claim that you can’t produce any Scripture regarding the subject of appropriate music for the Christian. Your claim for studying does not match your claim for no Scripture to support your position on music. I have given you Scripture for my position, which addresses the issue both directly AND in principle. Therefore, your claims that any teaching that a Christian should not listen to any form of rock music is a “man made doctrine” is absolutely false. Please demonstrate where I have inserted my opinion!” In post #32 in this thread you said....... “Those whose vocation is in the musical field will tell you that music has a language all its own. The lyrics in rock music are SECONDARY to the message of the music itself. Music speaks – the question is what is the music saying? Well, we are seeing the AFFECTS of rock music right in front of us, and it is not good. Forget the lyrics, the music itself is bad!” You didn’t only say that you personally didn’t like this music, but you condemned it as “bad”! (And you didn’t base this on any Scripture, but on testimonials of those in the field.) You further said that “Music speaks”(in some mystical way). Then you blamed all the ills of today’s society on rock music. This is inserting your opinion into this discussion. The Bible says....... Colossians 2:20-23 V.20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, V.21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; V.22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? V.23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. You are teaching that a kind of music, should not be touched or tasted(or listened to), because it has some mysterious power over us, that can hurt our walk with the Lord! If this is true, show me some Scripture. Now, in my study of music in the Bible, I have found that “Godly music” does have a wonderfully beneficial effect upon believers. But to assume the opposite to be true, is pure conjecture. -------------------------------------------------- Finally you said something I can sink my teeth into.... “Well, yes, the underlying principle we should be operating from in regards to music, particularly secular music, is indeed separation. We are not to “be…partakers with them.” By endorsing, purchasing, promoting, etc. we become partakers with them.” This was the other shoe(to be dropped), that I was waiting for. I agree that “promoting” UNGODLY secular music(of any kind), does cross the line of separation; Therefore I never “Endorse” or “purchase” or “promote” UNGODLY music. (I never buy any music of any kind; We don’t have to with the internet) Anything that is clearly UNGODLY, should be shunned and preached against; And when something’s UNGODLY character is obscured, we need to shine the light of the truth of God’s Word on it as an example of Satan’s methods of deception. Note: The example of my postings of music in this thread, could be considered endorsing these songs; And that’s just fine, because none of these songs are WICKED or SINFUL or UNGODLY(in themselves), at all. In fact, they were posted as an example of how blanket attacks upon secular music are nothing but hot air. -------------------------------------------------- Another of your opinions posted....... “Rock music LEADS to ungodly practices. Thus there is a principle at stake that tells me to separate from the things that lead to “the unfruitful works of darkness.” Further, so many of the writers, performers, and producers in the music business are given over to all manner of wickedness, but they know they can’t sell their products if they flaunt their sin TOO much. Their public presence is designed for one thing – to sell their product. Make no mistake about it, they have an agenda, and their agenda is not in agreement with the word of God.” Although I agree that some rock music concerts and events have led to ungodly practices; This thread is about “Preaching” that “all rock music” is evil. But messages from a Churches pulpit, should be from the Bible’s Sound application to sin and sinful practices. -------------------------------------------------- I have only one thing to say about your next statements........ “This is a difficult subject. First, I don’t think that Paul is insinuating that a person who does not eat meat offered to an idol is a weak Christian across the board, but rather that this Christian has a weakness in that particular area. Further, all Christians are commanded to grow in grace and in knowledge. So it is not that these Christians are stagnant, but as you mentioned in an earlier post, maybe their past experiences have created some weaknesses in their lives that they feel obliged to insulate themselves from. I believe this is the idea Paul is expressing. Therefore, when somebody who does not have this same weakness comes across somebody who does, he should not make any assumptions about that person, neither should he attempt to persuade him otherwise. Teaching about our liberty in Christ is one thing, since we are not under the Law. Encouraging a brother in Christ to act in a manner that defiles their own conscience, and in a manner that is not after FAITH, will indeed lead them into sin. Maybe it would not be sin for “the stronger” Christian, but Romans 14 teaches that it would be a “sin” for the weaker Christian to violate his own conscience.” Amen and Amen -------------------------------------------------- You also said....... Well that depends on how you define “secular.” What exactly are you lumping into that broad category? I assumed rock music because of the statements you made earlier, and the videos you linked. But the reality is that you are indeed looking for the “smoking gun” verse (i.e. “Thou shalt not…”), while I am providing solid Scriptural PRINCIPLES that will help us make our decisions. I have also encouraged a thorough examination of Scripture on the subject of music, as well as increasing your own personal knowledge of music in general by reading outside sources. These sources will give you more insight into the subject. Using “Principles” in place of “Scripture”, can be a dangerous thing. For sure, the Bible teaches principles; But they should all be NAILED DOWN to specific Scriptures. When they can’t be, they should be treated as a work in progress and not preached on at all. You have stated that your study of music in the Bible, is a “work in progress”; When you are finished, please let me know what you find out. But until then, you should be open to the possibility that you may have “gone to seed” on this subject of rock music. I don’t love rock music; Although I have recently been informed that some of the music that I “like” is considered Rock, because it has a “back beat”. I am not sure what that has to do with anything, but if someone can show me some Scripture about the evils of percussion instruments in music, I would appreciate it. -------------------------------------------------- A statement of your opinion...... You are in error, but you have failed to make the connection between general principles and how they apply to specific situations. Example: Ephesians 5 and II Cor. 6 deal with the general principle of separation from worldliness, sin, and evil. Your job now is to take that principle and apply it to secular music. It is your opinion that I am in error, because I have failed to make the same connections that you have made. And you said that my job now, is to try find the same connections for myself. Well, although I am always hoping to “grow” in my understanding of myself and the world around me; My constant #1 job, is to stay in the center of God’s will by daily exposing myself to His Holy Word, which teaches me about Him. Today, this job took me to Colossians 2:, and once again, God was warning me about the error of calling things sin, that aren’t sin. I have got to go. Have a GREAT day!
  22. Brother please forgive me. I am very familiar with God’s WARNING in Romans 14, not to cast a stumbling block before your brother; And clearly I did that with you. (And thank you to the moderators for removing my links.) -------------------------------------------------- Now, I need to more carefully proceed with this discussion, if it can even be discussed. I say that because we seem to be at an impasse: That is, you and I are in COMPLETE AGREEMENT about the “current pop culture”: It is wicked and ungodly and leading people into Spiritual bondage. But the Kind of music I have been talking about(and posted), had absolutely nothing to do with pop culture; But I will stop there, so as to not promote it. -------------------------------------------------- Also, please count the number of question marks(“?”), in all of my posts. To the best of my knowledge, I have never declared that any kind of music was acceptable. I have tried to make it very clear, that one of the main purposes of this thread, was for me to “be corrected”, if I am wrong about this question of secular music. Over and over again, I stated that I didn’t have the answers yet and that any conclusion that I had already come to, was tentative. -------------------------------------------------- I am not going to deny the possibility that I may be deceiving myself about this issue. But... asking me to produce Scripture to prove that Secular music isn’t sin, is just like the challenges I received from other sites, to produce Scripture to prove that the King James Bible is God’s Word. It can’t be done. What I did do, was produce lots of Scripture warning us about teaching “man made doctrine” as “Bible Doctrine”; this is indeed dangerous. Although I did appreciate the Scripture references that you gave lme(especially the one in Eph.5), and I did review them; I found them to be talking about personal separation from the unsaved and/or wicked and ungodly practices(“the unfruitful works of darkness” etc.). Now the reason that none of these Scriptures can be used in this discussion, is because by using them, you “presuppose” that Secular music itself, is sinful and wicked. (This is the question we are discussing.) -------------------------------------------------- One more point; I have asked myself, “why discuss this openly in the first place”? What good does it do. But I must also ask the Lord, why He included the 14th chapter in Romans in the Bible? If.... it was Gods will, that “weak” Christians be “left alone” in their weakness and not brought to the light of a better understanding of the problem of restricting themselves from eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols, or lifting up one day above another, than why did He include these discussions in the epistles to the Romans and the Ephesians? For sure, I must be careful not to cast a stumbling block before my brother, and although I have been accused of “flaunting” my strength before those who are weaker, this is just an accusation. “flaunting” (To exhibit ostentatiously or shamelessly: he flaunts his knowledge) If I have been flaunting anything, it is my concern that I may be wrong, while repeatedly asking for SCRIPTURE that says that secular music is sinful. The title of this OP is “Promoting strength”, and that is all I intend to do; While being open to any Scriptural arguments, that correct me if I am in error. -------------------------------------------------- I understand your extended study, to find “the smoking gun” in Scripture, that emphatically declares secular music to be sinful. But just be careful, not to be trying to use Scripture to justify your preconceived beliefs in this area. As much as you may not believe it, I am OPEN to the TRUTH about this issue, so that I can correct my own thoughts and practices, before the Lord has to....... “For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.” 1 Corinthians 11:31 You are my brother in Christ and I love you and hope that this discussion will bear fruit in both of our lives. Have a good evening
  23. A true “Oldy but goody” (One of my favorites)..... Note: Removed by moderator. Rock music may be discussed, but not permitted on this forum. Tell me what you think about it.
  24. Hello Steve Schwenke Thank you very much for your thoughtful response. This is EXACTLY what I have come here for! I have indeed been called to preach and to be a pastor and have pastured 3 Baptist Churches over the last 23 years. And although I am presently “between Churches”, I am SURE, that the LORD has plans for me in the future; And I am SURE that the Lord is using me today to minister in several different areas, even though I don’t have a pulpit. I much appreciate your warning....... “I think the bigger problem is that (1) too many preachers are mentally lazy, and don't like to study (I mean REALLY STUDY - not just regurgitate what they learned at Bible College or from somebody else!)” I praise the Lord for so wonderfully protecting me from having been “overly influenced” by “man’s opinion” of what God has said in His Word. The circumstances that the Lord has arranged for me to be in, for the last 25 years has forced me to grow more and more dependent upon “His Word” and “His Still small voice” alone, and I have not found myself “wanting” for “daily” light and instruction. ------------------------ You also said.... “1. Just because you don't "feel" conviction about a certain thing does not mean that this is an ACCURATE GAUGE on what the Lord's desires really are. By this I mean that the Holy Spirit always speaks in that "still, small voice," Is it not possible that the Lord DID convict you about that thing, but that you dismissed it, and buried it? Is it not possible that the Lord has let you have your way on this matter, even if it is to your own destruction?” This is wonderful advice and instruction. “Thank you”. Yes, for more than 20 years or so, I have made this QUESTION, the #1 concern of my life; In light of what the Bible says on this subject..... Proverbs 16:25 “There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.” and Jeremiah 17:9-10 V.9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? V.10 I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings. The fact is, our most important responsibility in life is to be “obedient” to the Lord..... Ecclesiastes 12:13 “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.” And I saw the danger of being “self deceived”, as my greatest danger in this area. For years, I prayed and studied and petitioned the LORD, for an answer and a victory in this area; Realizing that if I was “deceiving myself” about my walk with the Lord than I couldn’t be SURE about any decision that I made. Then one day, as I was reciting a memory verse, the Lord showed me the answer within that verse....... Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” The Lord showed me the truth about the last line in this verse..... “...a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” Any self deception, would involve “the thoughts and intents of my heart”; That is, I would be lying to my self about my true motives, etc. And He showed me, that as long as I am “SINCERELY” studying His Word and HONESTLY looking for and being open to the truth; That HIS WORD would convict me about any hypocrisy in my life, every time I studied it. ------------------------ Now, although I am DAILY exposing myself to God’s Word, by meticulously studying it, I am still open to the possibility that I may be misinterpreting His Word or overlooking something for selfish or sinful reasons. (Some people might call this “overkill”, in being so concerned about my walk with the Lord; But NOTHING is more important than our Spiritual life)..... Matthew 16:26 “For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?” ------------------------ With all that said, yes I am relatively sure that my “lack of conviction”, is an “accurate gauge” of the Lord’s desire “FOR ME”! That is, I know that the LORD has different “desires” for each of us. What is perfectly fine for one Christian, may be SIN for another Christain. I am ABSOLUTELY SURE that it is a sin for SOME CHRISTIANS to listen to Rock and roll music or to watch TV. But.....this is not true for ALL CHRISTIANS! (Each of us need to learn to listen to God’s still small voice TO US, to determine what HE wants us to be doing or not doing!) And this is the point of my OP: “A PASTOR THAT PREACHES, THAT "ROCK AND ROLL" or "TV", is always sin for everybody, is preventing the people in his congregation from learning to listen to the Lord’s still small voice on their own!” Years ago, I realized one of the most DAMAGING things about “legalistic Churches”, was that they STUNTED THE GROWTH of their congregation! One of the chief ways a Christian “GROWS IN THE FAITH”, is by learning to listen to the Holy Spirit’s instructions to them. But a pastor who tries to take the Holly Spirit’s place, by setting up “extra-biblical” rules, like a dress code or the personal practices of their congregation at home; Prevents those Christians, from learning to listen the Lord’s voice on their own. For sure, we should preach against the sins of “Lust” & “Pride” & “Covetousness”; And warn our people about the real dangers this wicked world holds for them. But, when we start preaching our “personal convictions” as “doctrinal truth”, we have crossed the line..... Mark 7:7 “Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.” ------------------------ Also your warning about how the Lord will “let us have our own way”, is right on target. The LORD will not force his will on any of us. If we get it into our mind, that we are going to do something, regardless of what the Bible says(or doesn’t say) about it and we stop listening to Him.... (He will let us have our way!) Every single day, I pray these words....... “....Father you know how serious I am about staying in the center of your will... if I stray from your will and I stop listening to you... Please, do “What ever it takes”, to get my attention!” This is an exact quote from my daily prayer list. -------------------------------------------------- Also, you said....... “2. The only way to really determine what kind of music is appropriate for the Christian is to study every single verse on the subject in the Bible, then educate yourself to the best of your ability on the subject of music, and then take into consider the general guiding principles of the Christian life. (For this last point, Ephesians 5:1-21, II Cor. 6:13-18, Romans 14, Luke 16:15 all seem appropriate for starters!) If you have not done this, then you have not done your due diligence in seeking the truth on the matter. Since you stated on another post that you have previously pastored churches for over 20 years, then you have no excuse on this, and I will not cut you any slack. You were the leader, and it was your responsibility to do this. Of course all of this study avails NOTHING if not bathed in prayer from a sincere, honest heart seeking the absolute truth.” This is also GREAT! I especially like the Scripture references you mentioned. (Good stuff.) But the part of this paragraph that pertains to this thread, was the fist line....... “The only way to really determine what kind of music is appropriate for the Christian” This is at the heart of my OP and the question that I am wanting to get to the bottom of. ------------------------ The way I see it NOW: Is that “different music” is appropriate for “different Christians”! (As long as the said music, is not wicked or sinful or attacking the truth of God’s Word.) -An innocent song about surfing or having to work for a living or a marriage relationship, that is not promoting wicked behavior, is just fine to enjoy.- As long as it is Okey with the Lord(FOR YOU). The idea that “a kind of music”, is inappropriate for every Christian, just doesn’t seem to be Biblical. And yes, the TV is a “Glass Toilet”, if you watch broadcast televison programs. They will teach you the exact opposite of what God’s Word teaches. But so will the internet. The problem today isn’t the TV, but the Christian who doesn’t follow the direction of the Holy Spirit in their life. Instead of a pastor telling people to get red of their TV’s, he should be teaching them to listen to God’s leadership, in what they should be watching. (Now I know, that this is ineffective advice today; Because most Christians have stopped listening to the Lord’s voice at all. But the answer isn’t for us to give up and simply dictate to them what they should be doing.) In fact, I don’t have all the answers. (But I believe your post, does give us a lot of great advice.) Sorry for being so long winded, but it just seemed to flow... Have a good night
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