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Independent Fundamental Baptist
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Everything posted by Donald

  1. The answer to my situation may be, the fact that Jack Hyles had a university associated with his Church, where hundreds of “preacher boys” were sent for training, over the last 25 years or so. Therefore they have an association with one another in such a way, that every visiting preacher/pastor that fills a particular pulpit, may come from the same background. Therefore for some of us he(Jack Hyles), may seem like a bigger deal than others. I wouldn’t disassociate with someone simply because they came out of this background; Just as I wouldn’t favor someone who did. All that should matter to us, is their RESPECT for the Word of God! -------- Thanks to all, for answering my question. I am encouraged to see that the errors that I have been seeing, are not as widespread as I first thought; But I am discouraged, to hear that there are just as many IFB Churches that are in error, in the other direction(modernism etc.)
  2. I became an independent fundamental Baptist, from a different direction than most people, so I am not as informed as most of you are, about it’s structure. My question is, how predominantly is “the Jack Hyles factor”, embedded in the IFB. The crowd of IFB’s that I am now involved with, look up to him(his memory and ministry), as the apex of all IFB endeavors. Regularly quoting him and talking about His Church, as the greatest thing, this side of heaven. While I, feel differently about him and his ministry. At this point, I should point out that I have never visited his Church nor listened to a single message he preached; But his “name” and his method of ministry is so imbedded in the fabric of every IFB pastor that I have heard preach over the last few years, that it is not difficult to discern the kind of ministry Jack Hyles had. My take on Jack Hyles, is that he made “soul winning”(at all cost), his most important objective. Now on the surface this may seem like a solidly Biblical view, but it has led to an emphases on things like “tugging at heart strings” at the sacrifice of “Scriptural honesty”. Years ago(my first exposure to other IFB’s), I visited a Church during a revival service and was shocked at the dishonesty that I witnessed. There were several examples of dishonesty displayed during that service, but the one that bothered me the most, was during the message from the pulpit: The “preacher” clearly misinterpreted a key passage in his message, without apology or explanation. After the service, as I was talking to him, I called him on his mistake; And without hesitation he smiled and said, “I know that what I said wasn’t true, but it tugs at heart strings”! After having been an IFB pastor for about 15 years(in an isolated state), this was my first encounter with “main stream” fundamental Baptist teachings. At the time I didn’t think that it was main stream, but now after two years of living in the Bible belt(Church belt), I am being convinced that every other IFB pastor has this same attitude about twisting Scripture, to bring God’s people to where we think they aught to be. I am being more and more convinced, that “my ministry” should emphasize the “I” in IFB. Even though I see the importance of soul winning(and practice it daily), I see a greater importance in honesty and Scriptural integrity and above all unyielding obedience to the LORD. --------------------- I think what prompted this thread, was my daily Bible study and how yesterday I came to Ezekiel chapter 20. As I studied down to verse 28 my heart was broken when I saw how the Lord feels about our disobedience. And then when I came to verse 31-ff I started to see how any main stream Christian organization, can become so enamored with itself, that they don’t even realize that the Lord has stopped listening to them.
  3. Hello swathdiver A quick look at the context seems to point to this talking about our “Baptism in the Spirit”:(The one that happens at the moment of our salvation)...... First because this baptism “event” is called... “the operation of God”(V.12) Also, this baptism “quickens” us..... “And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;” (Colossians 2:13) While, our water baptism, is simply an act of obedience that God blesses.
  4. Recently I started reading through Matthew Henry’s commentary of the New Testament and in the preface a long drawn out(but good), discussion of the canon of the Bible is covered and from it I have been reminded of some things. ➀ The arguments or attacks that I have heard over the years by some, against it, can be quickly and simply dealt with, by the reminder that the members of God’s Churches each have the Holy Spirit and that the LORD Himself has seen to it, that His Word was protected and preserved; Therefore over the centuries the individual 66 books of the Bible have always been seen as Holy Writ, by even the basest members of the Church, while all other apocryphal writings are clearly seen as what they are. God’s Holy Spirit within us, will protect us from being deceived. ➁ Also one of the earmarks of a cult, as giving weight to “extra-biblical writings”, isn’t only limited to all the well known groups that we are all familiar with, but with almost every individual Christ rejecting religious person throughout history. In almost every case, a religious person who rejects Christ, finds the root of their problem in their rejection of God’s true Word. ------------------------ This is not intended to be scholarly at all. I am clearly an unlearned and ignorant man, but I found this observation interesting and thought that I would share it.
  5. Hello candlelight and thanks for the clarification. I am acquainted with one such individual, who professes to be a Christian, but rejects salvation by Grace; Who recently got hooked up with some “Jewish church” in our town, that sounds as “off the wall” as he is. The fact is, the Bible warns us of those who will “call themselves Jews” but aren’t really Jews at all. Satan has plenty of lies to go around, in order to send as many people as he can to hell. But praise the LORD, He PROTECTS all those who are TRULY looking for Him and are willing to BELIEVE the truth when they hear it.....(Matthew 24:24) et.al.
  6. I realized this morning for the first time, the REASON behind the differences between the REWARDS God promises to the Jew and the Church. On the face of God’s Word, we see that the rewards God promised to the Jews were PHYSICAL while the rewards God promises to the Church are SPIRITUAL. Well this morning while studying in Romans 11, I took a closer look at verse 7... “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded” (Romans 11:7) ------------------------ Over the years I have seen this verse as explaining HOW today’s Jewish people can still be “God’s people” yet rejecting Christ...(That is Messianic Jews, are the “elect”, and “...the rest were blinded”.) Being “blinded” so as to keep them innocent. But today, as I came to this verse, I asked myself, “What were the Jews seeking?” Well, like God’s people of all ages, they were seeking “rewards from God(Hebrews 11:6)!” And I realized this morning, that the Jews(as Spiritual babies), could only see as far as this life, therefore God’s promise to them was Earthly rewards. But the Jews that “go on” with the Lord to accept Christ: Discover the great blessings of His Heavenly rewards. ------------------------ Just like the fact that Enoch and Noah lived during the same period, yet Enoch “went on” with the Lord, further and further, until he was raptured. While Noah could only see as far as “this life”, and had to spend a year in a big floating box with all those animals. (But both were saved.) ------------------------ And our Spiritual life is the same today: Some Christians can’t seem to get past Romans 7:14-24, while others “go on” into a closer walk with the Lord, and find a wonderful life of peace and Joy.
  7. Hello musician4god1611, nice to talk to you You said....... I have to say I was really getting a blessing out of this, and then you hit the last part and that just about totally ruined my morning. I refer not only back to the verse that "I Am Chief" made mention of, but also to 1 Thessalonians 5:22, "Abstain from all appearance of evil." Sorry for messing up your morning, but sometimes it is good to be knocked out of our comfort zone. And I also am careful, to abstain from any appearance of evil. But what I do in my own home(that is not sin), doesn’t cross this line...... “Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.” (Romans 14:22) ------------------------ Next you said...... I believe it was you that mentioned exercising your senses for the purpose of teaching them to discern good and evil. Now the only way to be able to discern between two things is to be exposed to both, and the only way to exercise something is to put into repeated practice. Therefore, you plan to help your senses to discern between good and evil by exposing them to both through repeated practice of both. If you will look again at that verse you will see you left a very important word out of your application. The word is use (by reason of USE have their senses exercised). Now to what does that use refer it is to the strong meat. So our senses are not exercised by the use of good and evil but rather by the use of the strong meat of the word of God, which the context of this passage bears out. I think of Ezekiel 44:23, "And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. Thank you brother! This is why I come here! Sure enough it looks like, it is the “use of strong meat”, that “exercised our senses, to discern both good and evil”! As for that reference in Ezekiel 44:23, I believe that this is talking about teaching them the things that “the Law”, says are clean or unclean! But nonetheless, you have given me a fresh view of Heb.5:14 ------------------------ Finally you said..... However, if you are still convinced that your particular secular music is ok, then consider Romans 12:2, "And be no conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." I'm afraid that if I follow your logic, then I will have to go out and kill someone just to know for sure if murder is truly evil. Please don’t go out and kill anybody; Murder is sin. And hating your brother is murder! By the way, this really isn’t about music at all. It’s about “faith”! From my very first thread on this subject(Promoting Strength), it has been about Christians that are “weak in the faith”, and those that are “strong in the faith”. According to Romans 14, Christians having weak faith, exercise a kind of “voluntary humility”; Refusing to consume some things, that are perfectly fine, because they think(or have been told), that it is sinful! While Christians having strong faith, realize that if something isn’t sinful, than it won’t hurt them(as long as it doesn’t get out of hand). Thank you for your response!
  8. Hello John81 You said..... There is no way to avoid all things secular. The choice comes in our response to and dealings with secular things as well as with regards to whether or not we are going to purposefully expose ourselves to things secular; to which we must determine what secular things are sinful and what is not. Sure enough, Heb.5:14 seems to be talking about the subject of determining which secular things are sinful and which ones are not. ------------------------ Next you said.... Hebrews 5:14 does not tell us to touch, taste, experiment with or indulge in sinful things in order to exercise ones senses. Dave points out above a Scriptural refutation of this idea. Hebrews 5:14 is letting us know that if we are mature in the faith and strong in the Word then our senses will thus be exercised. We will be able to discern good from evil because we are rooted and grounded in the Word, not because we have tried sinful things. True, this verse is not telling us to indulge in sinful things. But the rest of this paragraph puts the cart before the horse! This verse isn’t telling us what the “results” of being mature are, but is cluing us in on how to become mature and able to discern good from evil. ------------------------ You also said.......... In your OP you refer to "innocent secular music". If the secular music you are referring to is indeed "innocent", and this means not sinful, then why the questioning of this? However, if you question whether or not the music really is "innocent", and therefore believe it may be sinful, then studying the matter through Scripture would be appropriate rather than listening to the music to see what your "senses" say. Brother, for sure I referred to this music as innocent, because it is. There would be no way to know if it was innocent, without having listened to it. There were no “?” marks in my OP; It didn’t ask any questions, is was simply stating a fact! Note: The music that is innocent for me, may not be for someone else. For those who have been saved out of a drug environment or the music industry, most music could never be innocent for them. Thus the purpose of this verse, is for each of us as individuals to determine what we should or should not, listen to. ------------------------ Your next statement was........ Also, when it comes to secular music we need to consider not only the music, but where it's being listened to and who can hear it. Is the secular music being played in the church, in a place where others can hear or totally in private? All of this must be considered in light of our testimony. As well, we must consider why we want to listen to certain secular music. What about the secular music is appealing and how or why does it fill an area that Christian music doesn't? I think I have said before, that secular music has NO PLACE, in the Church(in any form). And there are some limitations on where we listen, so as not to offend others. As to music “filling an area” in our life: Like I have said before, with me it is no bid deal. I can take it or leave it. But if I(or any other Christian), leaves something for the “wrong reason”, it can be harmful to us. ------------------------ Next you said..... If we are considering popular secular music (whether country, pop, rock, etc.) one can usually find one or more individual songs that are not sinful. However, the individuals and groups typically have many more songs which are sinful in nature. If we are listening to a clean song by a popular artist and others hear us listening to that song that will likely be perceived as an endorsement of that artist, not just that song. I agree. ------------------------ Next.... Consider the song "Jesus Take the Wheel" which Carrie Underwood made famous. Most Christians who have heard the song like it, and the song and Carrie won some Christian awards for the song. Since the song was such a secular hit it's not so much considered a Christian song by many, just one of Carrie's many hits. When one looks at what Carrie has had hits with since that song, they tend to be a of a clearly sinful nature and her dress and demeanor followed the same course. Could one listen to Carrie sing "Jesus Take the Wheel" in private and it not be sinful, and maybe even edifying, perhaps. Yet if one listens to such so that others hear, or one speaks in a praiseworthy manner of this in public then such will likely be viewed as an endorsement of not only that song, but of Carrie and her other songs. I don’t know that song, nor who Carrie Underwood is; But it bothers me personally, to hear unsaved people, sing about my Lord. As for endorsing particular musicians, I never do. ------------------------ Your last question was........ Back to Scripture, we are told a test we are to give all thing is whether or not doing something brings glory to God or not. Will you bring glory to God listening to the Beatles, REO Speedwagon, One Direction, Taylor Swift or other secular artists, or not? Now I have heard of the Beatles. As for “bringing glory to God”, look at this..... “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.” (1 Corinthians 10:31) Years and years ago, I asked myself the question; “How does eating and drinking bring glory to God?” Well the answer is obvious!
  9. Good morning I am chief You said.... “I have to fight my flesh and things of this world almost on a minute by minute basis.” Brother I do the exact same thing every day of my life! Therefore the last thing in the world I would ever want to do is “feed my flesh”. Thus came the contradiction that I have discovered over the years of daily striving to walk closer and closer to the Lord. That is what this thread is about; The contradiction that “working hard” to be “Holy”, in some cases seems to produce an ungodly attitude. While simply having a heart’s desire to be Holy, produces a Godly attitude. I don’t have all the answers, but it may have something to do with something Jesus said..... “Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” (Matthew 11:28)
  10. Does “secular”, equal “evil”?
  11. One of my daily devotional duties, is a monthly recital of my memory verses(to keep them fresh in my mind), and today I came to a verse that seemed to start changing my mind about an issue we have discussed. The verse was....... 2 Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” Now I have intensely studied this verse hundreds of times over the years, that it has been a memory verse(every month when I come to it), and today was no exception. But today, as it often happens, when I came to this verse, I stopped my memory verse work for a minute and opened my Bible to this passage to once again study what this word “therefore”, is there for. What I found was a proof text(or close to it), as to why a Christian shouldn’t listen to secular music. Notice: 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 V.14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: V.15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. That is, since Christ died for us, than we were all DEAD(before we got saved); And our salvation has given us LIFE! (An new life in Christ!) Therefore we... “should not henceforth live unto ourselves”! ------------------------ Now, as I was thinking and praying about this and was considering “swearing off”, my occasional practice of enjoying some innocent secular music, another Scripture came to mind..... Hebrews 5:14 “But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” And now I had a choice to make.... I could go ahead and decided not to expose myself to anything secular, in a sincere devotion to the Lord, or.... I could continue to occasionally exercise my senses, teaching them to “discern good from evil”: And be rewarded with an understanding of the deeper teachings of God’s Word!
  12. Hello Jerry Numbers You concluded your response with this question..... “Oh, how many of us really wants God will to be done on earth as it is in Heaven?” Well I think anyone who’s heart is right with God, want’s His will to be done. But what these threads have been about is another question..... What is, “God’s Will”? ------------------------ As we have seen, I think God’s will is one thing, while Steve thinks it is something else, while you may think it’s something else. This is why I seem to make such a big deal out of always going back to Scripture for the answer to this question! I KNOW(and admit), that my view of God’s will is not perfect, because my mind has been effected by sin’s contamination. None of us can trust ourselves 100%, because of the fact that we live in a Christ rejecting world every day. Paul said something about this..... 1 Corinthians 5:9-10 V.9 ¶ I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: V.10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. According to the Bible, we would have to get “out of this world”, before we will be able to see things absolutely clear. This is why I am so dependant upon God’s Word and am always asking Steve and others to “show me the Scripture” that supports their views. As I have said, I have NEVER(from the pulpit), said one word about secular music being okey! So also have I NEVER preached one word against it! (That may come in the distant future, but now I have bigger fish to fry!) I need to make sure, that I am not going overboard, in my criticism of other pastors, who do preach against it. God calls different men to do different things; He may indeed have called some to preach against rock music and although He may never use me to do so, maybe I should have a more charitable view of others who do. As for conforming to this world(as you talked about it in your response), praise the Lord, I am daily staying alert, to this danger and avoiding it as much as I can.
  13. Thank you Steve. That was a very respectful and informative response and it has given me something to think and pray about. Just the other day, my wife and I were talking about the error that so many good preachers have fallen into, by “going to seed” on things. I have a personal friend who has gone to seed on the subject of homosexuality; And I know of another pastor, who has gone to seed on the subject of our nations support of Israel, etc. The list seems to go one and one. As my wife and I talked and also later, I started wondering what area I may have gone to seed in. This isn’t new for me, I regularly ask the Lord to reveal any area in my file, that is out of balance. Then you wrote....... “Too many preachers put too much emphasis on external things, which creates a level of self-righteousness in their churches because the focus in on the exterior, not on the inner condition of their heart. In these cases, the terms "Pharisee" and "legalist" are accurate. The problem is that you are so rabid on your position that you have not really read or truly comprehended anything I have written.” Having gone “rabid” on something, is having “gone to seed” on it. For sure, I do see a big problem with preachers teaching people to be so careful to avoid the “ways of the world”, that they forget to teach them to remember their own wicked hearts, etc. I have a lot to learn(that is why I come here). ------------------------ Today I was thinking about why the Lord would make some Christians, kind of hyper sensitive to something, while at the same time, causing other Christians to not see any harm in it. My conclusion was, that maybe it’s because when it comes to “secular music”, it’s no big deal with me(I could take it or leave it). But someone else, may have a real problem with it(feeling that it’s something that they need), etc. ------------------------ Anyway, this has been a good discussion for me! Thanks again Steve
  14. Hello Steve and thanks for getting back with me. You said......... “You make it sound like we are preaching our opinions, or like we are overprotective mothers all worried about our children or something.....Why make this assumption? Why can you not accept that what we are preaching comes from our very own convictions about the things of the world, and things that are inherently sinful, evil, and harmful to the Christian? Why do you ASSUME that this is our motive?” My assumption was that you truly care about the people you are ministering to: And I know that is true. As for the fact that your preaching “comes from your very own convictions”: This is the issue. Back in 1982, a few months after my wife trusted Christ as her Savior, she shared with me that the Lord has “convicted” her that she should stop wearing pants; And immediately she threw all of her pants away and to this day she only wears dresses or skirts. (But even as a baby Christian, she knew that this “CONVICTION” was for her only!) And not once has she ever(even as a pastor’s wife), told any other Christian woman not to wear pants. Do you know why? Because the Bible doesn’t say anything about women wearing pants! Now you have a “CONVICTION” that secular music is wrong and sinful. Fine. But have the good sense not to preach about it, because IT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE! Oh by the way, MUSIC has been around a long, long time! And as we all know Satan used to be a kind of song leader, before he was kicked out of heaven. If music is such a powerful tool to turn people away from the Lord, why is there not even one example of Satan using it to do that, in the Bible? ------------------------ After I accused you of “building theological fences” to protect people from things that you believe can hurt them, you said........ 1. My manner of preaching is to show them FROM THE BIBLE why I believe a thing is sin. It is not fence building, it is BIBLE PREACHING. 2. My manner of preaching is to present the truth, and bring them to the point of decision. If they choose to partake in an activity that I have demonstrated from the Bible is sin, that is their decision. But they have been warned. 3. THE LAST THING ON MY MIND WHEN I PREACH IS erecting "fences." The FIRST thing on my mind is "will this sermon please the Lord, and bring glory to Jesus Christ." #2 was interesting to me.... “If they choose to partake in an activity that I have demonstrated from the Bible is sin, that is their decision. But they have been warned.” Brother, from my very first thread on this subject, this is what I have been begging for. (Please show me some Scripture that will demonstrate to me that secular music is sin.) Your most compelling Scripture has been Ephesians 5: And here is a good verse from that chapter....... “And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].” (Ephesians 5:11) I believe that my response to you about this list of Scriptures was they can only be applied to secular music, if it has already been established that all secular music is sinful. Scripture does not establish that. Someone else responded to me in one of these threads(trying to help me see the light), and they shared how “they” had learned the truth about the sinfulness of secular music. They recounted how years ago, they had asked their pastor about this issue and he was also unable to show them any Scripture on the subject. So he gave him some books on the subject and asked him to read these books and pray about it; And after reading what “other men” had to say about the subject, he came to understand the evils of secular music. This is the WRONG WAY for any of us, to shape our beliefs! ------------------------ Next you said....... To accuse us of acting like the PHarisees, of making man-made doctrines, and ASSUMING that we have no Biblical Authority to declare rock music evil, or TV evil, etc, etc. etc. is simply ridiculous. I do not preach anything without studying the matter out, and making a case for or against a thing without sufficient CONCLUSIVE evidence FROM THE BIBLE. I do not ride hobby horses - I do my best to give a good balance in the preaching. Some messages are pure doctrine, some are more practical, some address current problems within our society from Biblical perspective. You are making a lot of assumptions on my ministry (and others) with absolutely no knowledge of our ministries. You have painted with such a broad brush that you assume anyone who preaches against rock music is just like somebody you heard. Your assumptions are false, and your presumptions are offensive. Steve, one can only assume that you ride the “hobby horse” of “the evils of secular music”, because of how strongly you have responded to my threads. As for being “like” the Pharisees; Remember they were the IFB’s of their time. They told others they believed God’s Word and made a big deal of it, but they had lost their way. They were so busy rebuking people for picking corn on the Sabbath day or spending time with sinners, that they forgot the truly important things. This is the danger of wasting one minute of our valuable pulpit time talking about the evils of TV or secular music. What good does it do to get our people to toss out their TV’s and burn their secular music, when they are living like the devil in the rest of their life. If we preach against lying, cheating and stealing and the hypocrisy of saying you’re a Christian and doing these things...Now that is preaching. I have seen so many of my Christian Brothers, who were caught up in the condemnation of superficial things like rock music or dancing or TV or women wearing pants.... Who’s lives were filled with truly wicked and selfish things! It’s almost like their hearts(our hearts), are only able to examine and sift out a limited amount of JUNK from our lives. And those of us who waste our time concentrating on these superficial things, end up overlooking the truly important areas of our life. I have NEVER met a legalist, who had a sweet Christlike spirit! They are ALWAYS bitter finger pointing hypocrites; And they don’t even realize this about themselves. Steve, I don’t know the first thing about your ministry and I apologize for offending you. But I don’t apologize, for taking a stand for preaching “sound Biblical Doctrine”; And casting aside superficial pet doctrines, that men have convinced us are sin.
  15. Hello Steve Did you even read my OP? No, you don’t see the problem. I am not talking about music at all; I am talking about “our ministry to others”! (Your ministry and my ministry!) First of all, I am not calling your ministry “wrong” and mine “right”, I am simply pointing out differences in them. ------------------------ In your ministry to “Christians”, you are building theological fences around them, to protect them; The fences you are building around them are barriers to keep them from hurting themselves. You are telling them, that certain things are “SIN”, when these things are not sin! (This is to keep them from viewing or listening certain things that you think will hurt them.) Even though you have the purest of intentions, you are hurting them even more; By preventing them from being forced to go to the Lord for guidance. This is just like the theological fences that the pharisees used to build around the people they ministered to; By teaching them that they had to do all of these ceremonial washings, before they ate. (Now I am NOT calling you a “pharisee”, I am just pointing out that they did the same thing.) ------------------------ On the other hand, in my ministry to Christians, I preach to them, the whole counsel of God and trust the Lord, to use the preaching of His Word, to guide them into all righteousness. This has been my point, from my very first thread.
  16. I just finished listening to(or rather paused in the middle), of a wonderful message preached by CH Spurgeon,.... http://www.crosscco.com/sermons/dare-to-be-daniel-by-charles-haddon-spurgeon/ In part of this message, Spurgeon was preaching about first, “not bringing the theater into the Church”, but then went on to preach(in so many words), that we should not ever attend the theater ourselves, etc. and told us that “this was a general principle” and that we should apply it ourselves. Praise the Lord I was listening to this message on MP3 and was able to pause it and pray then to continue. But it was during one of these times of prayer, that I think the Lord gave me an answer to the apparent disagreement that I seem to have with lots of the people here on this forum. We are all professing Christians and professing IFB’s and many of us are ministers, yet I seem to hit a brick wall with most of you over this subject. I believe the answer is, “THE APPLICATION OF OUR CALLING”! Each of us have a calling, to minister to others(whether in the ministry or not). And it’s the application of that calling, that is in question. Many of you(along with Spurgeon), choose a “stricter” application of your calling, in hopes that this stricter application will make your ministry more effective. Most conservative preachers, feel that the world is so wicked and there are so many temptations that all of us face, that our preaching needs to be as “tight” as we can preach it. Just as with Spurgeon; There was nothing “sinful” about the theater itself(although it had no place in the Church), but because some plays were wicked and some actors were ungodly, the best way to preach, in order to “protect the people” he was preaching to, was to suggest that they totally avoid the theater. This was his “application of his calling”. Now my application of my calling, is to simply preach what the Bible says and allow the Lord to do the same thing in other people’s lives, as He did(and is doing), in my life. Now although Spurgeon was a GREAT PREACHER, he was just a man(just like me). And I think the mistake that Spurgeon made in this area, was taking the people “out of the Lord’s care” and putting them “into his own care”. This application of ministry, is wrong because it forgets that God is still on His throne in heaven and that He is able to WORK in the lives of the people that we preach to. Therefore(because we have forgotten this), we try to work in people’s lives by building our own fences around them to protect them from themselves. Now for sure, very young Christians can use “some guidance”, but we need to be careful not to overdo this guidance, so that they can learn to seek guidance from the Lord!
  17. Hello I do, much appreciate this discussion. Yes, my pastor does make a point of saying that we won’t make God mad at us if we don’t tithe, but only that we are hurting ourselves. This is how I have also looked at it over the years. I just(as a pastor), NEVER made “giving”, such a big deal, as he does. ------------------------ Standing Firm In Christ; Your opposition to Steve should have ended, when he wrote.... “We agree that there is no direct NT statement that demands a tithe. We disagree on the practical application of the general principle of giving, where it starts, how it operates, and the example given to us in the OT.” Are you totally against anyone ever giving money to a Church? Generally I see or Lord as teaching the principle in the Gospels, of “live and let live”. Therefore do you see Steve’s view as hurtful to Christians, in any way?
  18. I thought that the main point of the passage(that I put forth), wasn’t keeping the Church doors open, but our attitude about giving to God’s work.
  19. Galatians 6:6-8 V.6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. V.7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. V.8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. ------------------------ “Let him that is taught in the word” (THE LOCAL CHURCH MEMBER) “communicate unto him that teacheth” (GIVE TO THE WORK OF THE CHURCH) BECAUSE THE CHURCH NEEDS MONEY TO KEEP THE LIGHTS ON! “in all good things.” (GIVE OF YOUR GOOD THINGS TO YOUR CHURCH) “Be not deceived;” (HERE IS AN AREA IN OUR LIVES, THAT CAN CAUSE US TROUBLE) WE CAN DECEIVE OURSELVES INTO THINKING OUR LOCAL CHURCH DOESN’T NEED OUR SUPPORT. “God is not mocked:” (THE LORD IS TOTALLY AWARE OF OUR HEARTS ATTITUDE TOWARD OUR LOCAL CHURCH:) AND HE WILL RESPOND ACCORDINGLY. “for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.” (WHERE WE PUT OUR MONEY AND SUPPORT WILL BRING FORTH SOME KIND OF FRUIT IN OUR LIVES) “For he that soweth to his flesh” (SOWING TO THE FLESH IS FORGETTING ABOUT THE LORD AND OTHERS IN OUR LIFE’S RESOURCES) “shall of the flesh reap corruption;” (THIS PRACTICE OF NOT CONSIDERING THE LORD AND HIS MINISTRY TO YOUR LIFE AND THE LIVES OF OTHERS, WILL BRING FORTH CORRUPTION IN YOUR LIFE) “but he that soweth to the Spirit” (SOWING TO THE SPIRIT IS REMEMBERING THAT THE LORD HAS GIVEN YOU EVERYTHING YOU HAVE AND BEING WILLING TO USE IT FOR HIS WORK IN YOUR LIFE AND THE LIVES OF OTHERS) “shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” (THE THINGS WE DO WITH OUR RESOURCES DIRECTLY EFFECTS OUR LIVES HERE AND OUR LIFE IN ETERNITY)..... Luke 16:11 “If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true [riches]?”
  20. Hello Standing Firm In Christ Let me be perfectly honest; I never thought in a millions years that I would ever be even considering “questioning” the Doctrine of tithing; But my previous encounters on this site and my personal insistence that others produce SCRIPTURE to back up their beliefs, has caused me to apply that same rule to myself. Tithing is something that I was taught from a very young age as a Christian, and I have never questioned it: Because I can see it in the Bible and I couldn’t see any other way that God’s Church could keep it’s doors open. Now this second statement about needing money from God’s people to keep the Church’s doors open, can clearly been seen in Galatians 6: (but is this a tithe) And just because the Bible “says something” about tithing, doesn’t always mean that it means what I think it says. ------------------------ Probably the one thing that has opened my mind to even consider “questioning my practice of tithing”, is my present pastor’s attitude toward giving. He makes it clear, that he doesn’t question ANYTHING he does that gets people in Church to give their money; Because he honestly believes that “they can’t ever hurt themselves, giving to God’s work”. Now this “may” be true, but it has opened the door for him to get very creative and bold, in his methods of getting people to “give”. ------------------------ So now you know, where I am coming from in this discussion.
  21. Good morning Steve In your response to “Standing Firm In Christ”, you said........ “Not arguing about the tithe....just saying that I think your interpretation of Gal. 6 is incorrect. "Communication" in the passage is a reference to giving, albeit not tithing. Galatians 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. Philippians 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. Hence we interpret the unclear passage of Gal. 6:6 in light of the crystal clear passage of Phil 4:15 - "as concerning giving and receiving..." Scripture defines itself. It is about giving to the preacher who teaches "good things." It fits this cross-reference: 1Ti 5:17 ¶ Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. 1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.” I agree about the meaning of the word “communicate” in this passage and elsewhere; (And “Standing Firm In Christ”’s contention that “the context” doesn’t agree with that definition, doesn’t hold water; Because the words are what make the context.) But my question to you is, are you saying that you don’t think Galatians 6: is talking about tithing? And if you believe in tithing, what Scriptures to you use to support that belief? See you later
  22. Hello Steve Thanks for the link........ http://www.onlinebap.../15472-tithing/ But I was very surprised(and disappointed), after looking over all 45 posts on this thread, and all I saw was “opinion”, after “opinion”, after “opinion”, after “opinion”, after “opinion” etc,... I NEVER saw EVEN ONE SCRIPTURE REFERENCE, with the exception of one vague reference to Matthew 18:, ?? ------------------------ I sited two SCRIPTURES and Standing Firm In Christ, responded with a handful of SCRIPTURE references..... This is how Christians are to get to the bottom of any issue! -------------------------------------------------- Hello Standing Firm In Christ Thank you for your response: You said and referenced..... “Well, for one, it was not money.” “Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.” Deuteronomy 14:22 This could be because “money” was scarce. So they tithed with what they had. ------------------------ You also said and referenced..... “It was for the children of Israel, not other nations” “These [are] the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.” Leviticus 27:34 I agree; Just as the Tithe, is not for the unsaved to pay. ------------------------ Next you said and referenced..... “It was to be given to the Levites” Numbers 18:24-26 V.24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer [as] an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance. V.25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, V.26 Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, [even] a tenth [part] of the tithe. and “And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.” Nehemiah 10:38 Your second reference explains the first. The Levites were to also Tithe: (A 10th of the tithe they received). ------------------------ You continued with......... “It was an ordinance” “Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept [them]. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?” Malachi 3:7 Some would say, that God’s people had left the LORD by going away from His ordinances: And that here(in the following verses), is God’s answer to the question, “How shall we return”! So it’s not all that Clear, that “giving to the work of the Lord”, is included in the ordinances that they had forsaken. But let us for a minute, assume that it was....... Next you said..... “It was abolished by Jesus Christ Himself” Ephesians 2:14-15 V.14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]; V.15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace; and Colossians 2:14 V.14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Here, your second reference seems to answer the question posed in the first reference. For sure, Christ abolished the “the law of commandments contained in ordinances”, but not all ordinances were bad for us..... He blotted out the ones that were “contrary to us”. And your third reference rejects itself(in this discussion), because in it’s context it is clearly talking about a changing of the law that was required, in order for Christ to be our High Priest. Hebrews 7:17-19 V.17 For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. V.18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. V.19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God. ------------------------ Also you said..... The Apostle Peter attested that those who teach the tithe (a part of the Mosaic Law) are tempting God (Acts 15:10 ) “Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?” Acts 15:10 This is clearly talking about making circumcision necessary of salvation. --------- Also you said..... “The Apostle taught that those who tithe (putting themselves under the Law from which all had been freed) are under a curse if they don't keep ALL the Law “ “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” Galatians 3:10 Now above you called Tithing “an ordinance” but here you are calling it “a law”. I will have to study this a little more, but I don’t think they are the same thing. ------------------------ Then finally you said.... “It was never taught by the Apostles... probably because of the fact that it had been abolished by Jesus Christ.” You did not respond to the other Scripture that I posted..... Galatians 6:6-8 V.6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. V.7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. V.8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Here the Apostle Paul seems to be teaching Tithing. ------------------------ I certainly don’t have all the answers, but I continue to be open for Scripture to teach me.
  23. This subject came up, because not only have I been hearing this “channel” message from my pastor over the last two years, but I have also heard this same message, from almost every guest speaker and visiting pastor that has come to our Church during that time. And the last time I heard it, was last Sunday night; When a visiting missionary on deputation, talked about it(in no uncertain terms), and he also pointed out how this was not your tithe, because as He put it.... “Our tithe is the Lord’s and He will get it one way or the other, by a flat tire or a broken water pipe, etc.” Now in my mind, I “accepted this”, because of what the Bible says in......... Mal 3:8-12 V.8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. V.9 Ye [are] cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, [even] this whole nation. V.10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it]. V.11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. V.12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts. Not only does God ask in this passage, “Will a man rob God?”, but in the New Testament we are told to support God’s Work........ Ga 6:6-8 V.6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. V.7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. V.8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Therefore, the issue of the “tithe” is somewhat settled my mind. But if this “channel teaching” stuff is not as widespread as some say here, than how or why does this message keep coming up in my Church? ------------------------ Another thing that I have been taught(and seen for myself in Scripture), is that the Tithe(10%) is certainly and Old Testament teaching, because the New Testament teaches that we owe the Lord 100%, therefore 10% is just kind of a starting place. Oh, by the way I don’t really want this thread to be hijacked over to a “tithe” thread, but if I can learn more clearly WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS about it, than so be it.
  24. A popular teaching in the IFB Churches that I have been in, is the idea that the Lord wants us to be channels of money... “When ever we receive unexpected money, we are to simply hold on to it and wait for the Lord to tell us who He wants us to give it to.” The result of being a good channel(we are told), is it proves to the Lord that you can be trusted with more and more money; Never using any of it for yourself but always giving it to others. Now this does sound appealing, but is it Scriptural? ------------------------ I personally know a pastor who practices it, yet regularly talks about the areas of “need” in his life and his family’s life. I can’t help but think that maybe the Lord’s intent, for some of this money that he gets, is to take care of him and his family’s needs. Note: Just so you know, this has nothing to do with our tithe. This is taught to be over and above our tithe. ------------------------ Can anybody give me some “Scripture” about being a channel, that I may be overlooking.
  25. As we all know Roman solders crucified Christ, but it was the Jewish rulers that were behind turning Jesus over to the Romans. And it was Satan, that was working behind scenes turning the Jewish people against Jesus. But what was it exactly that caused the Jews to so hate our Lord so much? Yes, He was preaching against their sins and they didn’t like it, but they were very religious people and they “preached” to each other, against “sin” every day. What was it that Jesus preached that got them so upset?..... Matthew 15:1-9 V.1 ¶ Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, V.2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. V.3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? V.4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. V.5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to [his] father or [his] mother, [it is] a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; V.6 And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. V.7 [Ye] hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, V.8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me. V.9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. ------------------------ Jesus was the sweetest most loving person to ever walk the Earth, but because He preached against the man-made doctrines of the Jews, they hated Him calling Him every name in the book, including a winebibber..... Luke 7:34 “The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!” -------------------------------------------------- The problem the LORD had with the Jews, was the fact that they started making up their own list of “sins”, that they judged everyone else by. This is a much more serious problem than people think.

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