Pastor Scott Markle

Indeed, I remember Matthew. Matthew 9:9-13 - "And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him. And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Mark 2:13-17 - "And he went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them. And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him. And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:27-32 - "And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me. And he left all, rose up, and followed him. And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them. But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners? And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Note: Concerning Matthew there does not seem to be single thing mentioned about anything that he had suffered, but only about what he did - At Christ's call he left all, followed Christ, and made a great feast for Christ in his own house. Concerning the other publicans and sinners who gathered to this feast, there also does not seem to be a single thing mentioned about anything that they had suffered, but only about what they did - They were sinners; They sat with Christ and His disciples; They followed Christ. In fact, Christ's defense against the accusation of the Pharisees is not what individuals suffer, but is about what individuals choose to do. Our Lord did not say that He came to call sufferers to comfort. Rather, He said that He came to call sinners to repentance. They were sinners because they had committed sin (things that they had done or not done); He called them to repentance (something they needed to do in order to deal with their sinfulness).)

Indeed, I remember Zacchaeus. Luke 19:1-10 - "And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho. And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich. And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature. And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way. And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully. And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." (Note: Again there does not seem to be a single word about what Zacchaeus suffered, but only about what Zacchaeus DID - Sought to see Jesus, Climbed the sycomore tree to see Jesus, Received Jesus into his house joyfully, Committed to give half of his good to the poor, Committed to restore fourfold unto anyone he had cheated.)

Indeed, I remember. John 4:1-30 - "Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. Now Jacob’s well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour. There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink. (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? For the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw. Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: for thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly. The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her? The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men, Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ? Then they went out of the city, and came unto him." (Note: There does not seem to be any direct reference in this context toward anyone's amount of suffering. Rather, the Lord confronted this woman concerning her sin of fornication ("He whom thou now hast is not thy husband") and of her need to trust in Him as her Savior. In fact, when this woman gave testimony to the men of the city concerning her encounter with Jesus the Christ, she herself gave the report, "Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I DID." She did not indicate that Jesus the Christ focused at all upon all things ever she had suffered, only on all things ever she had done or not done.)

Indeed, I remember. John 8:1-11 - "Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." (Note: Does not seem to be a single reference in this passage to anyone's suffering, but only to different individual's sins, what they had or had not done. Thus it would appear that the matter of how much suffering an individual endured is not really relevant to this account. Rather, the matter of doing or not doing sin is what is relevant to this account.)

Psalm 26:4-5 - "I have not sat with vain persons, neither will I go in with dissemblers. I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked." Psalm 101:3-8 - "I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me. A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked person. Whoso privily slandereth his neighbour, him will I cut off: him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer. Mine eyes shall be upon the faithful of the land, that they may dwell with me: he that walketh in a perfect way, he shall serve me. He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight. I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the LORD." 1 Timothy 6:3-5 - "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself." 2 Timothy 3:1-5 - "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." (Note: God's Word does not seem to agree with Bonhoeffer's word. So, which will we choose to follow? As for me, I will follow God's Word as the very truth, and will disregard Bonhoeffer's word as a falsehood against the truth.)

Ok, with that I can express more full agreement. Thank you Brother Hugh for clearing up the "confusion."

Brother Totoosart, What Brother Hugh said is not precisely accurate. The apostle Peter under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit stated the following in 2 Peter 3:15-16 -- "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." Some things in God's Holy Word are easier for understanding, but other things are harder for understanding. Furthermore, Proverbs 1:7 states -- "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." Even so, those who walk in the fear of the Lord have the foundation upon which to grow in their understanding of God's wisdom from God's Holy Word. However, those who will not choose the fear of the Lord (as per Proverbs 1:29-30) will not be able to grasp God's wisdom from God's Holy Word. Indeed, being wise in their own conceits, they will remain fools and will ever grow deeper in the darkness and blindness of their foolishness. Finally, in John 8:31-32 we read, "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Growth in the truth and wisdom of God's Holy Word comes only to those who continue in the Word with diligent study, daily mediation, AND dedicated obedience. Without faithful obedience there will not be spiritual growth of maturity or understanding. Consider the following passages: James 1:21-25 - "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." Hebrews 5:12-14 - "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." In Proverbs 8:32-36 the personified Wisdom of God's Word states - "Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death."

Brother Mike, Did you read through my posting below -

Hmmm. Sorry that I presented so much. I just wanted to provide a thorough presentation of my reasoning, not just my "answer." Actually, not precisely correct. I admit that this involves a RESURRECTION, but not that it is a rapture (catching up). Brother Mike, In your belief system, what or who is the "withholder" in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7; and what does it mean for this "withholder" to be "taken out of the way"?

In my previous posting, I presented the possibility that the harvest-event as reported in Revelation 14:14-16 is the same harvest-event as is reported in Revelation 14:17-20, and presented the possible Biblical grounds for such a conclusion -- However, a closer consideration of the immediate context around Revelation 14:14-20 may lead us (and has led me) to a different viewpoint concerning the harvest event of Revelation 14:14-16. In the first place, let us consider whether a prophetic harvest-event can be viewed Biblically as a positive harvest of deliverance/blessing. Clearly the character of the prophetic harvest in Revelation 14:17-20 is a negative harvest of judgment, as per verse 19 - "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God." This negative character of judgment for a prophetic harvest is supported Biblically through Joel 3:9-17, as per verse 13 - "Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great." (Note: I myself would contend that Joel 3:9-17 is speaking concerning the same prophetic event as Revelation 14:17-20.) However, Mark 4:26-29 seems to present a prophetic harvest (in relation to the kingdom of God) from a more positive perspective - "And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground; and should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how. For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear. But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come." So then, is it possible that Biblically a prophetic harvest may be presented as either negative unto judgment or positive unto blessing, depending on the context? Actually, Matthew 13:24-30 seems to present a prophetic harvest-event wherein both the negative and the positive component are present in the same exact event - "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? From whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Furthermore, in Matthew 13:36-43 our Lord Jesus Christ gave His own explanation for this parable - "Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." So then, if it is possible (as it seems) that Biblically a prophetic harvest may be presented as either negative unto judgment or positive unto blessing, depending on the immediate context, which character is the harvest-event of Revelation 14:14-16 in accord with its immediate context? I myself would contend that contextually Revelation 14:9-20 is to be viewed a single contextual unit. The reference to "the wine of the wrath of God" in verse 10 seems to correspond with the reference to "the great winepress of the wrath of God" in verse 19. As such, this correspondence would seem to join the beginning and ending of this context, and thus to encompass the passage as a single contextual unit. Even so, I would contend that the contextual unit of Revelation 14:9-20 can be divided into four parts, as follows: 1. The final judgment for those who worship the beast. (Revelation 14:9-11) 2. The final blessing for those who believe on Jesus the Christ. (Revelation 14:12-13) 3. ???The prophetic harvest under question. (Revelation 14:14-16) 4. The negative prophetic harvest unto judgment. (Revelation 14:17-20) Indeed, since the beginning part and the ending part of this contextual seem to carry a specific correspondence, I would further contend that the four parts of this context are to be viewed in a "chiastic" formulation (wherein the first part corresponds with the last, and the two middle parts correspond with each other), as follows: 1. The final judgment for those who worship the beast. (Revelation 14:9-11) 2. The final blessing for those who believe on Jesus the Christ. (Revelation 14:12-13) 3. ???The prophetic harvest under question. (Revelation 14:14-16) 4. The negative prophetic harvest unto judgment. (Revelation 14:17-20) Now, if we recognize this "chiastic" formulation for this contextual unit, then we would recognize that the prophetic harvest-event from Revelation 14:14-16 is to be viewed as corresponding with the final blessing for those who believe on Jesus the Christ from Revelation 14:12-13. Even so, from this contextual correspondence we would be led to view the prophetic harvest-event from Revelation 14:14-16 as a positive harvest of blessing just as the positive presentation of the final blessing for those who believe on Jesus the Christ in Revelation 14:12-13. So then, our "chiastic" layout for this contextual unit would now be as follows: 1. The final judgment for those who worship the beast. (Revelation 14:9-11) 2. The final blessing for those who believe on Jesus the Christ. (Revelation 14:12-13) 3. The positive prophetic harvest unto blessing. (Revelation 14:14-16) 4. The negative prophetic harvest unto judgment. (Revelation 14:17-20) Yet what be the timing for this positive harvest unto blessing from Revelation 14:14-16? Since I am viewing the section of Revelation 14:9-11 as corresponding with Revelation 14:17-20, and since I am viewing these two sections as encompassing the entire context, I would contend that the prophetic events of Revelation 14:12-16 occur at the same timing as the prophetic events of Revelation 14:9-11, 17-20. Furthermore, since I am viewing the prophet events of Revelation 14:9-11, 17-20 as corresponding with the prophetic event of Revelation 19:15, 17-21, I would contend that the prophetic events of Revelation 14:9-20 as a whole, both negative and positive, occur at the "Revelation-Coming of Christ," as per Revelation 19:11-21. Indeed, this would mean that both the positive harvest of blessing from Revelation 14:14-16 and the negative harvest of judgment from Revelation 15:17-20, both the positive and negative component, occur within the same prophetic event, which would correspond quite well with our Lord's teaching from Matthew 13:24-30, 37-43. However, one question remains. I have concluded that the character of the prophetic harvest-event from Revelation 14:14-16 is a positive character unto blessing. I have concluded that the timing for the prophetic harvest-event from Revelation 14:14-16 is the same as the timing for that of Revelation 14:17-20, that is -- the timing of the "Revelation-Coming of Christ." Yet what is the definition of the prophetic harvest-event from Revelation 14:14-16? Who will be "harvested" in this positive harvest-event unto blessing? Since contextually the harvest-event from Revelation 14:14-16 seems to correspond with the final blessing for those who believe in Jesus the Christ in Revelation 14:12-13, I would contend that this positive harvest is a harvest of believers unto blessing. Furthermore, since I have concluded that this positive harvest-event occurs at the "Revelation-Coming of Christ," I would contend that it corresponds with Revelation 20:4-5 - "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." Indeed, I would contend that the prophetic harvest from Revelation 14:14-16 is a "harvest" of believers specifically from the seven year Tribulation Period unto the blessing of the thousand year reign of Christ upon the earth. This "harvest" of believers from the seven year Tribulation Period could be viewed as having two elements - 1. The resurrection of those believers who died/were killed during the seven year Tribulation Period. 2. The rewarding of those believers who lived through the seven year Tribulation Period.

Will not happen. Yes.

Brother Mike, Having completed the process of my extended answer concerning 2 Thessalonians 1 - 2, I am now ready to engage your question concerning Revelation 14:14-16 - "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped." Herein we find a report concerning a prophetic harvest-event. The description for the "Harvester" in this portion would seem to be Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The place of this harvest-event is a "harvest of the earth." The reason and timing for this harvest-event, as provided in the passage itself, is because "the harvest of the earth is ripe." However, the information of this passage does not seem to reveal whether this harvest-event is a negative event of judgment or a positive event of deliverance/blessing. Now, that which follows in the context of Revelation 14:17-20 also presents a report concerning a prophetic harvest-event - "And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in is sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs." Herein this harvest-event seems clearly to be a negative event of judgment, for herein the "clusters of the vine of the earth" are cast "into the great winepress of the wrath of God." The "harvester" in this passage is described as an angel, rather than as "the Son of man" from the previous passage. The place of this harvest-event is "the vine of the earth." The reason and timing for this harvest-event, as provided in the passage itself, is because the grapes of the earth-vine "are fully ripe." The result of this harvest-event is that the "winepress of the wrath of God" is trodden "without [outside] the city [most likely a reference to Jerusalem]," and blood comes out of that winepress of God's wrath, "even unto the horse bridles," for a space of 1600 furlongs. From these two reports we find some similarities and some differences. The first similarity is that both report a prophetic harvest-event by means of a sickle. The second similarity is that both report a prophetic harvest-event of the earth, when the earth/vine of the earth is fully ripe. The first difference is that in the first report One like "the Son of man" is doing the harvesting, whereas in the second report an angel is doing the harvesting. The second difference is the first report does not specifically reveal whether the harvest-event is a negative harvest of judgment or a positive harvest of blessing, whereas the second report clearly reveals that the harvest-event is a negative harvest of judgment within "the winepress of the wrath of God." Thus a question is raised - Do the similarities of these two reports, being within the same full context, indicate that they are reporting about the same prophetic harvest-event; or do the differences of these two reports, along with the grammatical transition from one report to the other ("And another angel came out of the temple . . ."), indicate that they are reporting about different prophetic harvest-events? Now, the winepress of God's wrath is referenced one other time within the Book of the Revelation. At the "Revelation-Coming of Christ" as reported in Revelation 19:11-16, verse 15 states, "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." Even so, I would contend that Revelation 14:17-20 & Revelation 19:11-16 are speaking concerning the same prophetic event, such that the negative harvest of judgment from Revelation 14:17-20 will occur specifically at the "Revelation-Coming of Christ." The harvesting of "the clusters of the vine of the earth" to be cast "into the the great winepress of the wrath of God" from Revelation 14:18-19 seems to correspond with our Lord Jesus Christ's smiting of the nations and treading "the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God" from Revelation 19:15. Furthermore, the report of Revelation 14:20 ("And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.") seems to correspond quite well with the report of Revelation 19:17-21 - "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." Now, if this correspondence of Revelation 19:15, 17-21 with Revelation 14:17-20 is correct, then we have an interesting factor to consider. In Revelation 19:15, 17-21 it is not an angel, but the Lord Jesus Christ Himself who is smiting the nations with sword of His own mouth and who is treading the winepress of Almighty God's fierce wrath. Such would mean that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself is centrally involved in the negative harvest of judgment as reported in Revelation 14:17-20, even though He is not specifically mentioned in Revelation 14:17-20. Even so, this factor might allow us to view the report of the harvest-event from Revelation 14:14-16 and the report of the harvest-event from Revelation 14:17-20 as speaking concerning the same prophetic event, simply from two different perspectives. As such, the report of Revelation 14:14-16 would be placing emphasis upon Christ's on involvement in this negative harvest of judgment; whereas Revelation 14:17-20 would be placing emphasis upon the results of this negative harvest of judgment for the ungodly of the earth. In fact, the conclusion of the previous paragraph had been my past viewpoint through general readings of Revelation 14:14-20. However, in order to answer Brother Mike's question with integrity of thorough Bible study, I have been required to look more closely at the context of Revelation 14:14-20. Even so, my viewpoint concerning Revelation 14:14-16 is now somewhat different than I held in the past. Thus more to follow in a future posting . . .

Brother "SureWord," I am pondering on how to proceed in answer to your question. It may yet be some time, since I still have to answer Brother Mike's question concerning Revelation 14:15-16.

In my previous two postings, I have handled to last two questions on this list. In this posting I wish to engage the first three questions on this list. Since I have indicated my position in an earlier posting that the "Revelation-Coming of Christ" and "the day of Christ" are the same event, I can merge the first and third questions above - Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same as the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"/"the day of Christ," or are these two different events? In order to answer this question, we really need to answer the second question above - Do we have some indicator throughout the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 for viewing the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" as occurring at a different time than the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"/"the day of Christ"? (Note: If we do not, then I would be compelled to concede that the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" and the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"/"the day of Christ" are one and the same, and that they occur at the end of the seven year Tribulation Period.) In answer, I believe that we do have such an indicator. As we have noted, according to the teaching of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 the "Withholder" must be "taken out of the way" first in order for the "man of sin" to be "revealed in his time." Even so, in my previous posting I have presented the reasons why I hold that the "Withholder" is specifically the Holy Spirit of God as our "Anointing," as the "Indweller" of New Testament believers. Thus for this "Withholder" to be "taken out of the way," at that event the Holy Spirit would cease to be the continual "Indweller"/"Anointing" for all believers. This would NOT necessitate that the Holy Spirit would cease to exist and work among mankind upon the earth. Rather, it would mean that He would cease to indwell believers from the moment of conversion unto the moment of death. From that moment the working of the Holy Spirit among mankind would be like that of the Old Testament time period, rather than that of the New Testament church age. Now, there seem to be two ways in which this "taken out of the way" might occur. On the one hand, the first possibility is that the Holy Spirit would be removed from New Testament believers as their Indweller, but the New Testament believers would remain on the earth. However, this possibility would seem to stand in contradiction with the teaching of the New Testament concerning the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit for New Testament believers, as per John 14:16-17, Ephesians 1:13-14, etc. On the other hand, the second possibility is that the Holy Spirit as the Indweller of New Testament believers would be removed from the earth specifically because all New Testament believers would themselves be removed from the earth. So then, is there any event presented in God's Word wherein all New Testament believers are removed from the earth? Yes, for it would seem that the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" would fulfill this occurrence. Even so, if this is a correct thought process and understanding, then the event wherein the "Withholder" (the Holy Spirit of God as the Anointing/Indweller of New Testament believers) is "taken out of the way" is Biblically equivalent to the "Rapture-Coming of Christ." As such, the ordering of prophetic events from 2 Thessalonians 2 would now be as follows: 1. A "falling away." 2. The "withholder" himself is "taken out of the way" - "the Rapture-Coming of Christ." 3. The revelation of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition" - The beginning of the seven year Tribulation Period. 4. The blasphemy by the "man of sin," "the son of perdition" - The middle of the seven year Tribulation Period. 5. The "day of Christ," "the Revelation-Coming of Christ" - The destruction of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition" - The conclusion of the seven year Tribulation Period. According to this understanding, we do indeed have some indicator throughout the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 for viewing the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" as occurring at a different time than the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"/"the day of Christ." Indeed, we have an indicator that the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" is equivalent to the event wherein the "Withholder" is "taken out of the way" such that the "man of sin," the antichrist, "might be revealed in his time." Furthermore, if we accept that the revelation of the "man of sin" occurs at the beginning of the seven year Tribulation Period (as I have contended in an earlier posting), then the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" would occur immediately before that revelation and that beginning. However, there are certain points of understanding that must be acknowledged in order for this conclusion to "fall into place." First, the point that the "Withholder" is specifically the Holy Spirit of God as Indweller would need to be acknowledged. If an individual does not agree with this point, then that individual would NOT come to the same conclusion concerning the placement for the "Rapture-Coming of Christ." Second, the point that the revelation-event for the "man of sin" occurs with the beginning of the seven year Tribulation Period would need to be acknowledged. Again, if an individual does not agree with this point, then that individual would not necessarily come to the same conclusion concerning the placement for the "Rapture-Coming of Christ." (Note: This is the reason that I handled each of these two points with specific postings.)

Hmmm. I am starting to wonder if I am talking into the air to myself here lately. Nevertheless, in my previous posting I handled the fourth of the above questions. In this posting I wish to engage the fifth of the above questions - Who is this "he" which holds back (withholds) the revelation of the man of sin? 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8a states, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he [the "man of sin" from verse 3] might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [withholdeth] will let [withhold], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed . . . ." Herein we learn a number of truths concerning the "Withholder" in relation to the "man of sin" - 1. The "Withholder," who is a singular "he," is holding back the revelation of the "man of sin" until "his time." 2. "The mystery of iniquity" is involved in the bringing forth the "man of sin." 3. "The mystery of iniquity" was already at work in the first century of the church age, and has continued at work since the first century of the church age unto the present. 4. The one reason that "the mystery of iniquity" has not yet brought forth the "man of sin" is because the "Withholder" is still holding back his revelation. 5. The "Withholder" shall continue to oppose the "mystery of iniquity" and hold back the revelation of the "man of sin" until "he be taken out of the way." 6. As soon as the "Withholder" is taken out the way, "then shall the Wicked [man of sin] be revealed." Thus we observe a relationship between three elements - between "the mystery of iniquity," the "man of sin," and the "Witholder" who opposes "they mystery of iniquity" and the revelation of the "man of sin." So, do we have any other passages of Scripture that present a similar relationship? I believe that we have two - 1 John 2:18-ff and 1 John 4:1-4. 1 John 2:18 states, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist [singular] shall come, even now are there many antichrists [plural]; whereby we know that it is the last time." I would contend that the singular antichrist from 1 John 2:18 , who shall come some time in the future, is Biblically the same as the "man of sin, the son of perdition," who shall be "revealed in his time," from 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. Even so also, I would contend that the many plural antichrists from 1 John 2:18, who are "even now" already among us, are Biblically equivalent to "the mystery of iniquity" from 2 Thessalonians 2:7, which "doth already work" among us. 1 John 4:3 states, "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." I would contend that the "spirit of antichrist" that "should come" in the future is a reference to the coming of the singular antichrist, as per 1 John 2:18, and the revelation of the "man of sin," as per 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12. Even so also, I would contend that the "spirit of antichrist" that is "even now already . . . in the world" is Biblically equivalent to the many plural antichrists who are "even now" among us, as per 1 John 2:18, and to "the mystery of iniquity" that "doth already work" among us, as per 2 Thessalonians 2:7. Thus I would contend for the following Biblical equivalencies from the three passages: 1. The antichrist = the man of sin = the son of perdition -- who shall come/be revealed in the future. 2. The many antichrists = the spirit of antichrist = the mystery of iniquity -- which is even now already at work. Yet why is this of significance? 2 Thessalonians teaches us that there is a "Withholder" who is presently opposing and holding back "the mystery of iniquity" from bringing in the "man of sin" at the present time, until that "Withholder" is "taken out of the way." Thus we may ask if 1 John 2:18-ff and/or 1 John 4:1-4 reveals who this singular "Withholder" might be. Do either of these passages reveal anything about anyone who stands in opposition to the many antichrists of the spirit of antichrist that is even now already working? I would contend that the answer is "yes." 1 John 2:18-20 states, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They [the antichrists] went out from us, but they [the antichrists] were not of us; for if they [the antichrists] had been of us, they [the antichrists] would no doubt have continued with us: but they [the antichrists] went out, that they [the antichrists] might be made manifest that they [the antichrists] were not all of us. But [in contrast to the many antichrists] ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." Even so, we learn that the spiritual power which stands in opposition to the spirit of antichrist, "the mystery of iniquity," is the "unction" that we have received "from the Holy One." So then, what is this "unction?" In 1 John 2:26-27 some answer is given, "These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing [the same Greek word as is translated "unction" in 1 John 2:20] which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." Even so, this "unction" that we have received "from the Holy One" abides within us believers, is our teacher of all truth, is itself truth and no lie, and specifically teaches us how to abide in the Holy One, our Lord Jesus Christ. To me this sound like the indwelling Holy Spirit of God. Furthermore, 1 John 4:1- states, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets [many antichrists] are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them [the false prophets/antichrists]: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world." Even so, we learn that He who opposes the spirit of antichrist which is "even now already" at work "in the world" is "the Spirit of God." Furthermore, we learn that we believers at present are able to overcome this "spirit of antichrist" specifically because the Holy Spirit of God who dwells in us is greater than the spirit of antichrist that dwells in the world. Thus I would contend for the following addition to the Biblical equivalencies of these passages: 1. The antichrist = the man of sin = the son of perdition -- who shall come/be revealed in the future. 2. The many antichrists = the spirit of antichrist = the mystery of iniquity -- which is even now already at work. 3. The unction/anointing that we have received from the Holy One = the indwelling Spirit of God = the Withholder. Yet I would emphasize a particular aspect of this point. The "Withholder" is NOT simply the Holy Spirit of God in general, but is specifically the Holy Spirit of God as our "Anointing," as the "Indweller" of New Testament believers. Both 1 John 2:20-ff and 1 John 4:4 emphasize this characteristic of the Holy Spirit as the Anointing who dwells IN US. (Note: This point will be a significance when we come to the other three questions concerning 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.)

Brother Bruce, I am still here, and have not forgotten our planned discussion. Good to know that you are also still here.

In my previous posting, I concluded with the above questions for consideration. In this posting I wish to engage the fourth of these questions - Is the revelation-event of the man of sin the same as the blasphemy-event of the man of sin? According to my understanding of Revelation 12 - 13, I would hold that the blasphemy-event of the man of sin will occur at the middle point of the seven year Tribulation Period. On the other hand, I would contend that the revelation-event of the man of sin is to be located on the prophetic timeline at the begging point of the seven year Tribulation Period. I would base this position on the teaching of Daniel 9:27 - "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." I would hold that the "week" in this verse is a sequence of seven, particularly seven years. Thus I would hold that this "week" is the seven year Tribulation Period. In accord with this I would hold that the consummation of this seven year period will be the "Revelation-Coming of Christ as per Revelation 19:11-16 and the destruction-event of the man of sin as per Revelation 19:20. Furthermore, I would hold that middle of this seven year period, wherein this one will "cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease" and will make desolate the covenant "for the overspreading of abomination," is the blasphemy-event by the man of sin, wherein he will set in God's own temple in Jerusalem, claiming himself to be God. Finally, I would hold that the beginning of this seven year period, wherein this one will "confirm the covenant with many for one week," is to be viewed as the revelation-event of the man of sin. I would contend that he is brought to revelation specifically by confirming "the covenant" with the Jews for one "week" (a seven year period), thus allowing the Jews to initiate the sacrifices and oblations of God's covenant. Indeed, I would contend that this event will be the specific beginning for the seven year Tribulation Period. Even so, I would hold that the first horseman of Revelation 6, as presented in Revelation 6:1-2, is the man of sin, the antichrist, himself. With this understanding I can now present the ordering of prophetic events from 2 Thessalonians 2 more clearly, as follows: 1. A "falling away." 2. The "withholder" himself is "taken out of the way." 3. The revelation of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition" - The beginning of the seven year Tribulation Period. 4. The blasphemy by the "man of sin," "the son of perdition" - The middle of the seven year Tribulation Period. 5. The "day of Christ," "the Revelation-Coming of Christ" - The destruction of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition" - The conclusion of the seven year Tribulation Period.

Concerning the burden of the thread discussion itself - There is no doubt that Biblical love is a central theme of Biblical doctrine and godliness. However, the problem arises when we follow an unbiblical, worldly idea of love, rather than a Biblical, godly idea of love. Biblical, godly love does NOT accept the sinner WITH his sin. Rather, Biblical, godly love seeks to reach the sinner in his sin and to draw that sinner unto the Savior who will DELIVER the sinner FROM his sin. In relation to sin, Biblical, godly love is a delivering and transforming love; it is not an accepting and enabling love.

Hey Brother Tony, It appears that the top of the picture is cut off. Being a pastor myself, I am curious what the "pastors" at the top of the "doctrinal castle" are portrayed as doing.

In my previous posting I presented a two-fold question for us to consider. Let us now proceed with the teaching of 2 Thessalonians 2 - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 - "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." In verse 1, as I have noted above, the apostle Paul made reference to the "Rapture-Coming of Christ." Furthermore, at the end of verse 2 the apostle made reference to "the day of Christ." Thus the question could be raised - Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same as "the day of Christ," or are these two different events? Finally, the apostle indicated that "the day of Christ" was not yet "at hand." 2 Thessalonians 2:3 - "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [contextually "the day of Christ"] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." Having taught at the end of verse 2 that "the day of Christ" was not yet "at hand," the apostle explained in verse 3 that two things must happen FIRST before "the day of Christ" can occur. First, there must be a "falling away." Second, there must be the revelation of "that man of sin," "the son of perdition." Thus we now have the beginning of an order of some prophetic events, as follows: 1. A "falling away." 2. The revelation of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition." 3. The "day of Christ." 2 Thessalonians 2:4 - "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." Herein the sentence from verse 3 continues with a description concerning the ungodly, anti-God character of this man of sin. He will oppose and exalt himself above any and all that is called God, including against the one true and living God. Furthermore, he will do so while sitting himself "in the temple of God," claiming that he himself is very God. I would contend that according to the teaching in the book of the Revelation, this blasphemy by the man of sin will occur at the middle of the seven year Tribulation period, as per Revelation 12 - 13. Yet this does raise a question - Is the revelation-event of the man of sin the same as this blasphemy-event by the man of sin, or are they two different events in the prophetic time-line? Thus we can add an element to our order of prophetic events, but with some uncertainty, as follows: 1. A "falling away." 2. The revelation of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition." ?. The blasphemy by the "man of sin," "the son of perdition." 3. The "day of Christ." 2 Thessalonians 2:5-6 - "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he [the man of sin] might be revealed in his time." Herein the apostle Paul revealed that there is some power which is holding back (withholding) the man of sin from being revealed until his set time. This then raises the question - What or who is this withholding power which holds back the revelation of the man of sin? 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a - "For the mystery of iniquity doeth already work: only he who now letteth [withholdeth - the same Greek word as is translated "withholdeth" in verse 6] will let [withhold, hold back], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked [the man of sin] be revealed . . . ." Herein the apostle Paul added further explanation to the teaching of verse 6. Herein the apostle revealed that "the mystery of iniquity" (the spirit and power of antichrist, as per 1 John 2:18 & 4:3) is already working hard in the world around us from the first century of the church unto the present time. Furthermore, the apostle revealed that the power which holds back the revelation of the man of sin is actually a singular "he" (who has been holding back from the first century of the church unto the present time). Finally, the apostle revealed that this "withholder" will continue to hold back the growing and pressing spirit and power of iniquity and antichrist until that very moment wherein he the "withholder" is "taken out of the way." Yet when he the "withholder" is "taken out of the way," then the wicked man of sin, "the son of perdition," will be revealed. So then, this narrows our question from verse 6 - Who is this "he" which holds back (withholds) the revelation of the man of sin? Thus we can now add an element to our order of prophetic events, as follows: 1. A "falling away." 2. The "withholder" himself is "taken out of the way." 3. The revelation of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition." ?. The blasphemy by the "man of sin," "the son of perdition." 4. The "day of Christ." 2 Thessalonians 2:8 - "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming." Herein the apostle Paul reveals the end and destruction for the man of sin. The man of sin will be "consumed" and "destroyed" with "the spirit" of the Lord's "mount" and with "the brightness" of the Lord's "coming." Indeed, this seems to be clear reference unto our Lord's coming "in power and great glory," that is - to "the Revelation-Coming of Christ" as presented in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, Revelation 1:7; Revelation 19:11-16, etc. Indeed, it seems likely that this is the event which is referenced contextually in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 as "the day of Christ." Thus we can now add further explanation to our order of prophetic events, as follows: 1. A "falling away." 2. The "withholder" himself is "taken out of the way." 3. The revelation of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition." ?. The blasphemy by the "man of sin," "the son of perdition." 4. The "day of Christ," "the Revelation-Coming of Christ" - The destruction of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition." 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 - "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believe not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." Herein we find further description of the man of sin, concerning the source of his power and the extent of his influence (which corresponds with Revelation 12 - 13). In addition, verses 11-12 reveal why God Himself will allow the man of sin to have so much power and influence over the spiritually lost of this world. _____________________________________ Now, I would contend on the foundation of the presentation and time sequence above, that if we can sufficiently answer the questions that have been raised, we can come to some solid conclusions concerning the timing for "the Rapture-Coming of Christ." 1. A "falling away." 2. The "withholder" himself is "taken out of the way." 3. The revelation of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition." ?. The blasphemy by the "man of sin," "the son of perdition." 4. The "day of Christ," "the Revelation-Coming of Christ" - The destruction of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition." Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same event as the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"? Do we have some indicator throughout the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 for viewing the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" as occurring at a different time than the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"? Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same as "the day of Christ," or are these two different events? Is the revelation-event of the man of sin the same as this blasphemy-event by the man of sin, or are they two different events in the prophetic time-line? Who is this "he" which holds back (withholds) the revelation of the man of sin?

From "The Hill" - Also in the article -

Having presented my posting above, I believe that I have provided sufficient context for my answers to your above questions - 1. Yes, because Galatians 5:6 is talking about how our daily faith as believers will work itself out in love for others. 2. In order to answer this question, I will need you to be more specific - Can they exercise faith in what or whom? 3. No. A lost sinner must turn in repentance from loving the darkness more than love of the light to love of the light more than love of the darkness, in order to come in faith unto Christ for salvation. 4. Love for others as a fruit of walking in the Spirit through faith. (For this reason I do not believe that Galatians 5:6 has any application at all to the matter of a lost sinner's decision of love and faith.)

Brother MBKJPreacher, In order to answer this, allow me to begin with some introductory context - I believe that the primary concern (doctrinal point) for the epistle to the Galatians is the truth that our sanctification as believers is through faith by the power of the Spirit, not through the law by the power of the flesh. I believe that the false teaching which the epistle Galatians was primarily written to combat was the teaching that our daily sanctification is through the works of the law. I believe that the apostle Paul establishes this primary concern for the epistle in Galatians 3:1-3. In Galatians 1 & 2 the apostle Paul substantiated his credibility as an apostle and the credibility of the message that he taught. Then in Galatians 3:1-3 he focused attention upon the primary concern of the epistle, saying, "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect [sanctified] by the flesh?" The apostle is clearly concerned for the believers of Galatia that they are being "bewitched" by false teaching. Thus he asks them a set of two question, with the second being built upon the first. The first question is whether they received the gift of eternal salvation and of the indwelling Holy Spirit "by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" The apostle assumes that they will answer aright with the answer - "By the hearing of faith." Then upon this foundational truth the apostle presents his second question - "Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" With his opening exclamation ("Are ye so foolish?"), the apostle reveals that this is the area of doctrinal concern wherein the believers of Galatia were being "bewitched" from the truth by false teaching. What is that doctrinal concern - that they were foolishly following the false teaching of sanctification "by the flesh" through the works of the law. Indeed, the apostle asked if having begun their Christian lives "in the Spirit" through faith, they should now be perfected in daily sanctification "by the flesh" (through "the works of the law"). To this question the apostle intends the answer of an emphatic - NO! Even so, with the remaining four chapters in the epistle, the apostle Paul substantiates his assumed answers to the above set of two questions. In Galatians 3 & 4 the apostle substantiates the foundational truth that eternal salvation and the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit are received THROUGH FAITH, not through the law. Then in Galatians 5 & 6 the apostle builds upon that truth the matter of primary concern (to combat the primary falsehood by which the believers of Galatia were being "bewitched") - that we believers are "made perfect" in daily sanctification THROUGH FAITH IN THE POWER OF THE INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT, not through the law in the power of our flesh. Thus in Galatians 5:1-6 the apostle is providing a transition from the foundational truth of chapters 3 & 4 to the primary concern of chapters 5 & 6. _____________________________________________ With this introductory context in mind, allow me to proceed with the teaching of Galatians 5:1-6. Galatians 5:1 - "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." Herein the instruction is given to those who are already believers concerning their continuing stance in daily sanctification. We believers are instructed to "stand fast" in and not be moved from "the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free." What liberty is this? In accord with the preceding context of Galatians 4:21-31, it is the liberty of the covenant of promise; and according to the teaching Galatians 3 & 4, this promise is the promise of life by the Spirit through faith. So then, we believers are instructed continually in our daily sanctification to "stand fast in the liberty" of life by the Spirit through faith, and to not be "entangled again with the yoke of bondage." What "yoke of bondage" is this? According to the teaching of Galatians 3 & 4, this "yoke of bondage" is the bondage of the law, which could NEVER provide or produce spiritual life. Galatians 5:2 - "Behold, I Paul [whose ministry and message was validated in chapters 1 & 2] say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." Considering the contextual teaching of verse 1, it appears that some were teaching that circumcision was a necessary work of the law for a believer's spiritual sanctification. Even so, the apostle is presenting the warning that pursuing such a focus on circumcision and the works of the law will cause us believers to lose "the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free" and will entangle us again "with the yoke of bondage." If we pursue daily sanctification through the law, Christ and His life in us will become spiritually unprofitable to us. Galatians 5:3-4 - "For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Herein the apostle shifts back to the foundational truths of Galatians 3 & 4 - that if an individual teaches and believes that eternal justification is "by the law," then such an individual would have no part in eternal salvation through Christ by God's grace. Rather, such an individual would be required (a "debtor") to take hold of eternal justification through an absolutely perfect obedience to "the whole law" (which no individual can actually accomplish, as per Galatians 3:10-12). Galatians 5:5 - "For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith." Herein the apostle returns to the matter of our daily sanctification as believers, emphasizing that the believers daily walk is a focus upon the Spirit, rather than a focus upon the law. Specifically the apostle speaks concerning our daily hope as believers for the promise of our eternal future in glory. Each day as believers we wait in hope "through the Spirit" (not through the law). Each day as believers we wait in hope "for the hope of righteousness." What is this "hope of righteousness"? It is our glorification and reward in the life to come. Each day as believers we wait in hope by means of faith. Grammatically in this verse the prepositional phrase "by faith" does not modify the word "righteousness." Rather, in this verse the prepositional phrase "by faith" modifies the verb "wait." How do we believers wait in hope through the Spirit? We do so "by faith." The power of our patient waiting is "through the Spirit;" the object of our patient waiting is "for the hope of righteousness;" and the means of our patient waiting is "by faith." Galatians 5:6 - "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." Herein the apostle continues his teaching concerning our daily sanctification as believers. In the matter of our daily sanctification as believers, circumcision or uncircumcision will avail nothing. Rather, what will avail something in our daily sanctification is to walk by FAITH. Just as we began by faith, so we must walk daily by faith. Furthermore, this daily walk of faith will work itself out and demonstrate itself "by love." In the phrase "faith which worketh by love," it is not the love which motivates the faith. Rather, it is the faith which is actively working by showing love. Yet how is this love to be defined? For whom is this love to be administered? Within the context of Galatians 5, this love is a love for one another (not a love for God). Consider Galatians 5:13-15 - "For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another." In fact, Galatians 5:14 teaches us that such a godly love for our neighbor will cause us to fulfill the righteousness of the law. By walking in the Spirit through faith, we will be spiritually sanctified to bring forth the godly fruit of love for others; and this godly fruit of love itself will be a fulfillment of the righteousness of the law. Thus in the matter of daily sanctification, by pursuing the influence of the Spirit through faith, rather than pursuing the works of the law, we still fulfill the righteousness of the law through the power of the Spirit.

Brother Mike, As I continue - Although there is some similar subject matter between 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2 Thessalonians 2, I believe that the apostle Paul's primary focus in 2 Thessalonians 1 was completed with verse 12. The apostle's primary focus in 2 Thessalonians 1 was to express encouragement in the face of persecution. However, in 2 Thessalonians 2 his primary focus is to express correction in the face of misinformation. This is revealed by his opening statements in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 - "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means . . . ." Apparently some had been attempted to deceive the believers at Thessalonica concerning the timing for "the day of Christ." In fact, it even appears that someone had sent them a letter containing this misinformation and had "forged" the apostle Paul's name to it. Thus throughout chapter 2 the apostle seeks to correct this deception and misinformation. Yet because this matter of misinformation concerns the timing for "the day of Christ" and because the apostle had employed Christ's future coming as the focus for encouragement in 2 Thessalonians 1, we encounter some similar subject matter in both chapter 1 and chapter 2. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1 the apostle Paul begins with a reference to "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and to "our gathering together unto him." It should be noted that grammatically within this verse the preposition "by" is used twice, but that the second usage is in italics (indicating that it is not directly found within the original Greek). I would contend that grammatically the singular usage of the preposition "by" which encompasses the compound objects of the preposition ("the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" AND "our gathering together unto him") indicates that the two objects of the preposition are describing the same event. I would contend that whatever coming of our Lord is described in this verse, "our gathering together unto him" occurs at the same time. Furthermore, I would contend that this "gathering together" unto Christ is that event which is described in 1 Thessalonians 1:13-18 (wherein we are "caught up together" to meet our Lord in the air) and which we commonly call the Rapture. Indeed, I would contend that 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is referencing the "Rapture-Coming of Christ." Yet this now raises the first major question concerning our understanding of the teaching in 2 Thessalonians 2 - Is this "Rapture-Coming of Christ" (2 Thessalonians 2:1) to be understood as the same coming which is described in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10? 2 Thessalonians 1:10 does state, "When he shall come." However, 2 Thessalonians 1:7 seems to place greater emphasis upon this event as that wherein "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven." Thus I shall refer to the event described in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 as the "Revelation-Coming of Christ." This is the question - Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same event as the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"? If the answer is yes, then we have the timing for the rapture at the same time as the timing of our Lord's coming in power and great glory - at the end of the seven year Tribulation Period and the beginning of the thousand year reign of Christ. On the other hand, if the answer is no, then since 2 Thessalonians 2 seems to be concerned with timing for various prophetic events, I would expect that we should find within this chapter some actual indicator of the different timing between the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" and the "Revelation-Coming of Christ." Now, those who hold to a pre-tribulational rapture (as I do), those who hold to a mid-tribulational rapture, and even those who hold to a pre-wrath rapture, all present the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" and the "Revelation-Coming of Christ" as having a different timing. Thus it would seem to me that all of us within those groups are compelled to demonstrate some indicator for that different timing somewhere throughout the context of 2 Thessalonians 2. If we cannot demonstrate such an indicator for that different timing throughout this context, then it would seem to me that we should acknowledge from the joined contexts of 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2 Thessalonians 2 that the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" and the "Revelation-Coming of Christ" are one and the same event. Do we have some indicator throughout the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 for viewing the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" as occurring at a different time than the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"?

I do not agree with your viewpoint concerning Galatians 5:1-6. I would oppose this definition for repentance. I would oppose this denial of repentance as a prerequisite for salvation (although I recognize why holding the above definition for repentance would lead to such a denial). I would contend that a Biblical definition for repentance would create NO contradiction between repentance and faith. Although I might not word things precisely the same way, I believe that we are agreed here.