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Pastor Scott Markle

Independent Fundamental Baptist
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Sermon Comments posted by Pastor Scott Markle


  1. 18 minutes ago, wretched said:

     

    On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 6:39 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

    Brother "Wretched,"

    Well now, that changes my perspective on your position somewhat.  However, it also leaves me a little uncertain of it also.  Furthermore, it appears that I may need to explain my position a little better.  Even so, I believe that this discussion involves three different "works" of the Holy Spirit in relation to believers, as follows:

    1.  The regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, whereby a believer is born again spiritually so that the old spirit which was "dead in trespasses and sins" is removed and so that a new spirit which is created after God replaces the old.  I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit is eternally permanent for whomever experiences it.  Furthermore, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit was experienced by Old Testament believers and is experienced by New Testament Church believers.

    I agree with objections (is that allowed?). But please bear in mind, it is mainly due to the lack of matching wording: there doesn't seem to be much objective evidence of this occurring in OT believers from a strictly verbiage standpoint. No passage indicates it "clearly" in wording IMO. Albeit, I do concede that you may be correct in this from the standpoint of descriptive similarities in the "end result" of what actually happened with believers in the OT and NT. 

    2.  The infilling work of the Holy Spirit, whereby a believer is governed and empowered by the directing influence of the Holy Spirit so as to accomplish God's will.  I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit is a temporary work that is not automatically permanent.  Furthermore, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit was experience by some Old Testament believers in order to perform a "special" calling for the Lord.  On the other hand, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit is available unto all New Testament Church believers, as we deny the lusts of our selfish flesh and submit under the direction of the Holy Spirit.  As such, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit can "come and ago" for a New Testament Church believer, based upon that believer's choice to deny self and submit unto the Spirit.

    This seems reasonable to me Bro Scott.

    3.  The indwelling-sealing work of the Holy Spirit, whereby a believer experiences the holy influence of the Holy Spirit from within and in union with his or her regenerated spirit so that the believer continually experiences a divine "draw" from within toward the objective of transformation unto perfect Christ-likeness.  Furthermore, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit was never available unto any Old Testament believers.  Rather, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit is only experienced by New Testament Church believers, that it began to be experienced by New Testament Church believers on the day of Pentecost, that since the day of Pentecost it is initiated for a New Testament Church believer at the moment of regeneration, and that it is a permanent work of the Holy Spirit for all New Testament Church believers.

    I absolutely agree on this point (no objections)

    Now, Brother "Wretched," I must ask for you to reveal wherein you agree and wherein you disagree with my position as presented above.

    Furthermore, I would ask WHY you do not believe that Old Testament believers were regenerated - if indeed you believe that the regenerating work and the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit are distinctly different works.

    Brother "Wretched,"

    I thank you for your response; and yes, it is permissible to agree with "objections" (or, at least, hesitations).

    Through your response it appears that we may be a bit closer in this matter than I had previously thought.  Concerning your "objections" (or, hesitations) in relation to the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit for Old Testament believers, I must acknowledge that the terminology of the Old Testament is NOT nearly as clear as it is for New Testament believers.  However, the evidence of the "end result" realities is enough for me to hold (without any actual doubts) that Old Testament believers did indeed experience the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.


  2. 55 minutes ago, wretched said:

    Brother "Wretched,"

    Well now, that changes my perspective on your position somewhat.  However, it also leaves me a little uncertain of it also.  Furthermore, it appears that I may need to explain my position a little better.  Even so, I believe that this discussion involves three different "works" of the Holy Spirit in relation to believers, as follows:

    1.  The regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, whereby a believer is born again spiritually so that the old spirit which was "dead in trespasses and sins" is removed and so that a new spirit which is created after God replaces the old.  I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit is eternally permanent for whomever experiences it.  Furthermore, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit was experienced by Old Testament believers and is experienced by New Testament Church believers.

    2.  The infilling work of the Holy Spirit, whereby a believer is governed and empowered by the directing influence of the Holy Spirit so as to accomplish God's will.  I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit is a temporary work that is not automatically permanent.  Furthermore, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit was experience by some Old Testament believers in order to perform a "special" calling for the Lord.  On the other hand, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit is available unto all New Testament Church believers, as we deny the lusts of our selfish flesh and submit under the direction of the Holy Spirit.  As such, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit can "come and ago" for a New Testament Church believer, based upon that believer's choice to deny self and submit unto the Spirit.

    3.  The indwelling-sealing work of the Holy Spirit, whereby a believer experiences the holy influence of the Holy Spirit from within and in union with his or her regenerated spirit so that the believer continually experiences a divine "draw" from within toward the objective of transformation unto perfect Christ-likeness.  Furthermore, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit was never available unto any Old Testament believers.  Rather, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit is only experienced by New Testament Church believers, that it began to be experienced by New Testament Church believers on the day of Pentecost, that since the day of Pentecost it is initiated for a New Testament Church believer at the moment of regeneration, and that it is a permanent work of the Holy Spirit for all New Testament Church believers.

    Now, Brother "Wretched," I must ask for you to reveal wherein you agree and wherein you disagree with my position as presented above.

    Furthermore, I would ask WHY you do not believe that Old Testament believers were regenerated - if indeed you believe that the regenerating work and the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit are distinctly different works.


  3. 12 hours ago, wretched said:

    Brother "Wretched,"

    As I have indicated before in relation to this disagreement between us, I believe that you have a wrong premise in this matter of doctrine -- in that you view the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit as being inseparably joined together.

    Certainly, John 14:13-19, 25-26; John 15:25-27; and John 16:7-16 all speak concerning the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit.  As such, they speak concerning the comforting work, the relational work (of spiritual fellowship with the Father and the Son), the teaching work, the testifying work, the empowering work (for faithful witnessing), the guiding work, and the glorifying work which is involved in the Holy Spirit's indwelling work.  However, none of these passages specifically references the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.  Rather, the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit is specifically referenced in John 3:3-21, wherein the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit is not at all referenced. 

    Therefore, all of the differences between us on this matter flow out of the difference in this premise -- whether the regenerating work and indwelling work of the Holy Spirit are inseparably joined, or whether the regenerating work and indwelling work of the Holy Spirit are distinctly different. 

    (Note: Although I believe that the regenerating work and indwelling work of the Holy Spirit are distinctly different, I do recognize that for the church age since the day of Pentecost the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit does indeed initiate the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit for the New Testament believer.  However, because I believe that the regenerating work and indwelling work of the Holy Spirit are distinctly different, I can further believe that Old Testament believers were indeed regenerated by the work of the Holy Spirit without ever receiving the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit at all, and that this could also be true for the Lord's disciples before the day of Pentecost.)

    Concerning Luke 22:31-35, I have also indicated before in relation to this disagreement between us my belief that you have a wrong premise concerning the Biblical usage for the word "convert."  You appear to believe that the word "convert" is only used Biblically for the work of eternal salvation.  However, I have contended in the past that the word "convert" simply means to turn back from a wrong path, and that it is used Biblically both in relation to unbelievers coming to eternal salvation through repentance and faith and in relation to believers coming to restored fellowship through repentance and faith.

    In James 5:19-20 God's Word uses the word "covert" in relation to a believer, saying, "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."  Herein the one who needs to be converted is one who has erred "from the truth."  Furthermore, this one who has erred "from the truth" is defined as one of those whom James calls "brethren."  James is speaking to fellow believers concerning one of them as believers erring "from the truth" and needing to be converted (turned) back "from the error of his way" unto a restored walk in the way of truth.  (As such, James 5:19-20 would be speaking concerning the same need as Galatians 6:1.)  Finally, if a fellow believer is able to convert the sinning believer "from the error of his way," then that believer will have saved the sinning believer, not from the judgment of hell, but from the Lord's chastening unto death; and thereby he shall "hide a multitude of sins" from occurring in the sinning believer's life by turning him back from the way of sin and thus preventing him from further engagement in sin.

    Brother "Wretched," concerning your indication that there is no point in arguing, you are correct that neither of us will move from our doctrinal position in this matter until one or the other of us changes on the points of doctrinal premise.  However, for the sake of the audience, I still believe that there may be a need for a Biblical presentation to combat what I believe is false doctrine on your part (just as I expect that you might choose to do in relation to what you believe is false doctrine on my part).


  4. As has occurred in past discussions between Brother "Wretched" and myself, I am compelled to disagree with his position that the apostles were not regenerated until the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.

    In John 17 our Lord Jesus Christ delivered a prayer unto the Father on the night before His crucifixion.  Within that prayer in John 17:14-16, our Lord made the following statement concerning His disciples, "I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."  Twice in this passage our Lord declared that His disciples were not of (that is -- out of as a source) this world in the same manner as He Himself was not of this world.

    So then, in what manner was our Lord Jesus Christ not out of this world?  We find the answer in John 8:23-24, 39-47.  In this passage our Lord Jesus Christ engaged in a discussion of rebuke against the Pharisees and scribes.  In John 8:23 He declared in rebuke unto them, "Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."  Herein our Lord delivered two parallel statements of contrast.  Against the Pharisees and scribes, He proclaimed that they were "from beneath" and that they were "of this world."  As such, we can conclude that to be "of this world" means also to be "from beneath."  However, in contrast our Lord proclaimed that He Himself was "from above" and "not of this world."  As such, we can conclude that to be "not of the world" just as our Lord was "not of the world" means to be "from above" instead.  Even so, since the disciples were "not of the world" as the Lord was "not of the world," they were instead "from above" as He was "from above."  So then, what is the only way for a lost sinner to be "from above"?  Answer -- to be "born of God," to be "born again."

    Furthermore, in John 8:42 our Lord Jesus Christ declared in rebuke against the Pharisees and scribes, "If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."  As such, we can further conclude that to be "of this world" means, not only to be "from beneath," but also to not possess God as one's heavenly Father.  Again in the opening portion of John 8:44, our Lord Jesus Christ declared in rebuke against them, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do."  As such, we can further conclude that to be "of this world" means to be "from beneath," to not possess God as one's heavenly Father, but to possess the devil as one's spiritual father.  Finally, in John 8:47 our Lord Jesus Christ declared in rebuke against them, "He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."  As such, we can further conclude that to be "of this world" is to not be "of God."

    Yet our Lord Jesus Christ was "not of this world," but was "from above" (as per His declaration in John 8:23).  Even so, He was the spiritual opposite of these Pharisees and scribes against which He was delivering His rebuke.  He was indeed "of God," and God the Father was indeed His heavenly Father.  In like manner, His disciples, who were "not of the world" just as He was "not of the world," must also have been indeed "of God" with God the Father as their heavenly Father.  So then again, what is the only way for a lost sinner to be "of God" with God the Father as his or her heavenly Father?  Answer -- to be "born of God," to be "born again."  In fact, to deny that they were "born of God" is to deny every occasion wherein our Lord Jesus Christ referred to the Father as their heavenly Father.

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