When did the church begin? in Jim_Alaska's Sermons & Devotionals A sermon by Jim_Alaska Posted September 12, 2016 · Report reply 18 minutes ago, wretched said: On 9/10/2016 at 6:39 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said: Brother "Wretched," Well now, that changes my perspective on your position somewhat. However, it also leaves me a little uncertain of it also. Furthermore, it appears that I may need to explain my position a little better. Even so, I believe that this discussion involves three different "works" of the Holy Spirit in relation to believers, as follows: 1. The regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, whereby a believer is born again spiritually so that the old spirit which was "dead in trespasses and sins" is removed and so that a new spirit which is created after God replaces the old. I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit is eternally permanent for whomever experiences it. Furthermore, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit was experienced by Old Testament believers and is experienced by New Testament Church believers. I agree with objections (is that allowed?). But please bear in mind, it is mainly due to the lack of matching wording: there doesn't seem to be much objective evidence of this occurring in OT believers from a strictly verbiage standpoint. No passage indicates it "clearly" in wording IMO. Albeit, I do concede that you may be correct in this from the standpoint of descriptive similarities in the "end result" of what actually happened with believers in the OT and NT. 2. The infilling work of the Holy Spirit, whereby a believer is governed and empowered by the directing influence of the Holy Spirit so as to accomplish God's will. I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit is a temporary work that is not automatically permanent. Furthermore, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit was experience by some Old Testament believers in order to perform a "special" calling for the Lord. On the other hand, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit is available unto all New Testament Church believers, as we deny the lusts of our selfish flesh and submit under the direction of the Holy Spirit. As such, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit can "come and ago" for a New Testament Church believer, based upon that believer's choice to deny self and submit unto the Spirit. This seems reasonable to me Bro Scott. 3. The indwelling-sealing work of the Holy Spirit, whereby a believer experiences the holy influence of the Holy Spirit from within and in union with his or her regenerated spirit so that the believer continually experiences a divine "draw" from within toward the objective of transformation unto perfect Christ-likeness. Furthermore, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit was never available unto any Old Testament believers. Rather, I believe that this work of the Holy Spirit is only experienced by New Testament Church believers, that it began to be experienced by New Testament Church believers on the day of Pentecost, that since the day of Pentecost it is initiated for a New Testament Church believer at the moment of regeneration, and that it is a permanent work of the Holy Spirit for all New Testament Church believers. I absolutely agree on this point (no objections) Now, Brother "Wretched," I must ask for you to reveal wherein you agree and wherein you disagree with my position as presented above. Furthermore, I would ask WHY you do not believe that Old Testament believers were regenerated - if indeed you believe that the regenerating work and the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit are distinctly different works. Brother "Wretched," I thank you for your response; and yes, it is permissible to agree with "objections" (or, at least, hesitations). Through your response it appears that we may be a bit closer in this matter than I had previously thought. Concerning your "objections" (or, hesitations) in relation to the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit for Old Testament believers, I must acknowledge that the terminology of the Old Testament is NOT nearly as clear as it is for New Testament believers. However, the evidence of the "end result" realities is enough for me to hold (without any actual doubts) that Old Testament believers did indeed experience the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.