whisperingsage

I am having to look up all our hymns on MP3 out of Soul Stirring Songs and Hymns, on piano, and I have not been able to find too many of John R Rice's actual hymns, just piano, no singing, for our congregational hymns. I can find his hymns on Youtube, but backed by a congregation. Is anyone aware of a CD of his hymns I can obtain?

The point isn't in the tithing, it is in the giving. Nowhere in the New Testament (which does not include the 4 gospels as those were still OT under the law), is tithing ever endorsed. It is only mentioned in Hebrews a couple times, referring back to Abraham. If it was a biblical precept for the church, it surely would have been IN the letters to the church as a requirement. Yet it is completely missing-completely, 100% not there. Whatsoever. By saying, 'Well, it works for me!', you are making it pragmatic. If it works for you, it MUST be the biblical truth. Except you can't back it with scripture, and I thought that was where we IFB-types get our truths. Christians should not deal in pragmatism and teach it as truth.
The point is, we are to be givers-free will, as the Lord gives, we should give again. As we are blessed, so we should bless. It is much more akin to the OT examples of when the temple was in need of repairs, and a box would be put out for people to give into, a freewill offering, or the freewill offerings they would give in sacrifices. They were separate from a tithe, as it was completely by choice-as you felt blessed by the Lord, so you gave. As you wished to help repair the house of God, so you gave, as you chose. Kind of like what the early church did when they sold their lands and properties and laid it at the feet of the Apostles-it was a freewill offering. THIS is what the New testament teaches, not a tithe.
Some may say, 'Well, I don't see it as any different; I don't give because I think I HAVE to give, but because i WANT to give!' And that's very good, exactly as it should be! But in a church where a tithe is taught, stop giving for a while and you'll probably hear about it, because you haven't given "YOUR TITHE" (that was meant to sound like a deep, bass voice with heavy echos). If a tithe is taught, it is a requirement in the eyes of that church. If you are a pastor who teaches a tithe, but don't believe it is a requirement, then stop teaching a tithe and start teach a freewill offering. You might see your finances drop real quick when people know they don't HAVE to give.
At least, this has been MY experience.

Hey Mike,
 
I bought the audio book “the Seven Habits” I must have listened to those things a good twenty times.  My wife hated them because every time we traveled by car I listened to them over and over.  After all these years I still remember a few illustrations from the book and still use them occasionally.  The best one in my opinion is when Covey talks about climbing the ladder of success to the top and finding the ladder is leaning against the wrong wall.  What a great illustration for false religions and he being a Mormon.    

Thank you, this is what we need.

That is correct. She filled in some details I had not. She's fed up. This is why we're looking for some resource that she can use to find answers-we disagree in some asp[ects-not in all, maybe the delivery. We have agreed to back off on trying to, I guess, seem like we're trying to run their lives, and I have turned the care of his wife completely to her husband-I told him that she was not our responsibility, outside of training in the church setting through the preaching of the word, and that it is HIS duty to learn well enough to be her spiritual head. So we are making headway. But while he is still ill, (he is awaiting a surgery for a hiatal (sp?) hernia, and is down a lot, he isn't much able to give her much direction, and she's rather like a child in some respects, as she was kept medicated much of her youth so her mother could get disability for her-so she is a stunted in her maturity, and she runs around like a kid without guidance. That's part of what my wife was talking about with the 'pot house', a family who grows pot in the backyard, (another issue we have here: the legalization of marijuana and the questions that arise from that issue). So our deisre is that she can find some preacher's wives who have been in the trenches longer, who have had to deal with and put up with troublesome believers, people you don't want to remove, who aren't in blatant sin, but are just, hard cases, that you want to help, but are growing weary over. I have the patience, she has a harder time with that. But then, I'm called to be the pastor, she's called to be my wife and help, and I'm enough trouble as it is.

Well done LuAnne, thank you for your compassion and input. Your suggestions are timely, practical and well thought out.

Whisperingsage, since you mentioned you are on facebook, may I recommend the closed group "Independent Baptist Women of Ministry". Perhaps you may find encouragement and advice there as well.
 

Oh, whisperingsage. I am young, and am in no position to offer advice (if I even had some). But consider yourself the recipient of a good hug!!

My instinct is to suggest that the first place to go for such answer, is scripture.  If you haven't already, or even if you have before, do an in depth study on the subjects of authority and conflict resolution in scripture.  
As Christians, I don't think it's as much about us getting our desired results as it is obeying the commands and processes laid out for us by God.  If we are following God's directions for certain situations, but others are being disobedient or we are otherwise not getting the desired result, it does not follow that we try something other than what God has laid out.
We know that husbands are to honor and love their wives and treat them with respect and dignity (and vice versa): 1 Corinthians 7:3-5, 1 Peter 3:7,  Ephesians 5:25, Ephesians 5:28, Ephesians 5:33 &c.
We know that women are to submit to their husbands and they are not to have authority over the man: Ephesians 5:22-24,  1 Timothy 2:12.
We know that we are to expose and rebuke sin amongst believers, in love, meekness and charity: Matthew 18:15-17, Luke 17:3,  1 Corinthians 13, Galatians 6:1,  1 Timothy 5:20, James 5:19-20.
As I said, I would start in those places and go through the processes that God has designed.  If they don't submit, treat them in the way we are told to treat them, or, if scripture is silent on further treatment, allow God to work.
 

whisperingsage: I totally get where you're coming from regarding internalizing issues. I'm so sorry for the stress this has put on you. I wish I had a solid "this is what you do" answer, but I don't. However, I do have some thoughts. I'd like to share them, but I don't want them to come across as harsh or finger-pointing in any way...and what I'm saying, I'm saying as a wife. Not as a pastor's wife, but as a wife, since that is what we married women are first (after being Christians, I know).  I see from comments that you both are working on this situation, and that is good and necessary.
This is very likely something you've already considered, Mike, but your wife needs pressure removed from her. I think you've made a good first step towards that by placing the reins into the young woman's husband's hands. But there are a few things that concerned me.
First, the texting/phoning. That has to stop, somehow.  It was mentioned that they don't respect boundaries of when to contact you. Those boundaries have to be reinforced, and held firmly by both of you. If this couple texts or calls outside the boundaries you've set up, I would strongly advise that you ignore them. I know that, as a pastor, your ministry is vital. But your marriage is much more so, and your wife's physical/emotional health as well. 
As a wife, I can tell you that it would distress me if people that I knew were simply using my husband were calling and interrupting his much needed sleep or his sermon prep time. And, yes, I internalize things as well, so I know what happens - even if I work hard at NOT reacting or worrying. Shutting down the response to them will cut down on that stress some. I know that it seems rude or possibly neglecting part of your flock to do that, but your wife NEEDS you to do that. Take it from a wife...
None of what I say is meant to criticize in any way, please know that. I admire both your desires to serve the folks of your church - even when it's people who just can't function well. But here's something else that kind of stuck out to me: the dryer. Yes, I know that wsage has it down as to using it. But your wife needs you to fix her dryer. And this might sound like a heretic speaking, but she needs it before you spend more money on something at church. I don't know that she would ever say that to you - and she might not even realize it herself. But I guarantee that's just more stress on her that she's internalizing. Even if she laughs about it or says it's okay. And I don't mean to imply that she's being dishonest. She's being selfless. And that's admirable. But it can also stress a body...
And if there's any way you can get the folks at church to begin giving - the $$ load needs to be removed from you. Because, believe me, that load is carried by your wife as well, even if she's completely in agreement with where your $$ goes. I'm sure you've taught on giving, and I'm not, again, criticizing. Just mentioning some things that stuck out to me.
whisperingsage, it might be a good idea for you not to interact with this young lady right now. Whether on social media, at church, on the phone, etc. I think maybe she knows that she's able to push your buttons and is perversely enjoying it. Sadly, there are people who enjoy making other people crazy. Saying hello to her at church should, IMO, be the limit of your contact with her for now.  I have asked a much wiser head than mine to contact you privately. I'll be praying for you, sage. 
These are just some thoughts that scattered through my brain as I read this. Again, I hope no-one is offended, as nothing was meant to be offensive.
 

Being a pastor's wife is trying and difficult under the best of circumstances. I would not presume to try to advise Whisperingsage on this matter. But I do think that counsel from other Christian ladies and especially pastor's wives could be of great benefit.
Whisperingsage has made a very heartfelt and difficult plea for help. This, in itself is difficult for most people. I take this plea very seriously and would encourage the ladies on this forum to reach out in love and compassion to a sister in need.
Any advice I may have to offer would be directed at Bro. Mike, and specifically in regard the husband and wife mentioned, not Whisperingsage.
We all know that there are two sides to every story and this is what makes Christian counselling so very difficult. But given the amount of detail given in this situation, I have a few thoughts and observations that may possibly be of benefit.
Of course we cannot really know the condition of someone else's soul, but we are instructed that we will know another Christian by their fruit.  Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 
 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 
 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 
 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 
 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
 Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 
 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 
 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 
Bro. Mike is closer to this situation than I am as an outsider. But to an outsider some of the things that are mentioned have no place in the lives of Christians, much less church members. Some of the things that were mentioned fall into the category of grounds for church discipline. This situation, as it was presented, must not be allowed to continue. There is a vast difference between Christian compassion, love and a spirit of helping others in need and enabling those who are "users" of others. This only encourages them to continue on at the expense of other people and to their own benefit.
But it also has much deeper implications. By allowing this to continue in a church setting, we are sending the wrong message to both church members as well as the unsaved around us. It also casts a dark pall over our ministry and our church in the eyes of the unsaved in our community. Church Discipline is difficult in every circumstance, but more so in a setting where the pastor is trying to build a work. It is also difficult and depressing in the case of a pastor that has only a few attending, as Bro. Mike does. But few members or many, it is imperative that we stick to what we know is biblically correct.
The constant demands on the pastor's time and resources has a cost above what is expected and required of a pastor. It takes an undue toll on his ministry, his family, his church and his ability to help others that may be in real need of his help. This sort of situation has the capacity to make a man of God begin to question not only his ministry, but his calling also.
Sometimes the road to the mountain top leads through a deep valley on the way. Sometimes the mountain itself  may look like a barrier. In times like these it is good to reflect on what God told Moses:  Ex 3:12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
I have always been in awe at the implication in this text. Notice that God said that Moses' "token" was only to be realized after he had brought the people out of Egypt.

FWIW, no one else in the church attends this site. Otherwise neither of us would mention much of this. The reason we feel comfortable doing it is because I susect we aren't the only ones going through much of these types of things, and are looking for experienced advice and comments. Not to aire dirty laundry.
 

Actually, in considerin all I have read, and there is a lot of good here, this is about what I have been moving toward. I am going to speak with the husband and put my wife off the hunt, as it were. We have spoken quite a bit-I know she's passionate about growth but this isn't working. She's been trying to get on this posting to see all this, but for some reason it is saying she needs permission to get into the forum, even though she's a member with no restrictions.
Thanks brother. You're not alone
 

The problem is, a lot of what my wife is also dealing with, with this young lady, is that the young lady hhas always been specifically passively, (and not-so-passively) aggressive toward my wife. We have had her in the church for some 6 years, off and on, from when she was an older teen. She would fool around on her phone, flirt with ANY young man who came in, and when told to stop, (particularly by my wife), she would get mad and mouthy, even had her step-father come to church one day to tell us to stop harrassing her. He was an old friend of my wifes, and we let him know what was going on.
Eventually I had to put her out because she decided that, since she couldn't find a nice guy, she decided she was a lesbian. When we spoke with her about that, and the sin involved, since she supposed herself to be a Christian, she got mad at me, and her aunt, who thought it was wonderful, also got on my case, and her mother, as well. So I told her that until she got right with the Lord she was no longer welcome at the church.   It was a couple years later she sowed up one day with her new husband and apologized for her behaviour. Her husband got saved, and later, so did she, (ostensibly), and they have been in since, for a couple years now. But this ongoing feud with my wife has never ended and the other day she admitted that she has been mad at my wife for the last six years and has never gotten over it. Any direction on modest clothes she ignores, and her husband really doesn't have the presence of mind, apparently, to remind her. I have sent her home to change becuse of what she sometimes wears. She rebels, and it's pretty obvious now that her rebellion is against my wife, and I suspect it is because she has a lousy relationship with her mother, and she sees my wife as someone kind of trying to mother her.

You must let the Holy Spirit direct you here.  There are times to be honest and truthful and you can actually see evidence of the good fruit that results.  There are also times to be cautious and again, you can actually see evidence of this "approach" also.  In other words, we have all actually seen with our eyes the "successful" fruit of each.  My only comment might be that there are few that take the "honest and truthful" approach these days even though that might be what is spiritually needed.  Too many pastors and leaders want to tip-toe around issues as they don't want to "rock the boat," even when that is the proper course of action. Much prayer and discernment is needed any time these issues are dealt with.

Oliver  ,
This is a good idea.
A lot of times women can help one another in areas that men cannot. Sometimes, some fellowship, talk, discussion, with other ladies in her position, can be a help, an encouragement, and a blessing.
Did not Rebecca Young have some devotions? or Bible studies? or something of this nature in the Christian LIving / OnLine Baptist Ladies forum at one time? Maybe your wife could get with her? Or, maybe your wife could start something for the ladies?
 

But, it seems that we are told to just just that; not to beat around the bush, but to address it head on; in meekness and charity, of course.
It just seem to me that we are told how to confront people:  Bluntly; privately, at first, then publicly.  I'm sure that not all people will respond to God's methods, but I don't think that we should seek out softer or alternative methods simply because of the fact that people are hard headed or hard hearted.
As I said before, it is not our job to make sure that people respond, it is our job to address situations in the ways that God tells us to.  If they still rebel, unless they are our children (or if someone wants to make a case for using a rod on wives or church members) then we must let God deal with them.

Here is one, a reddish-brown one, hanging out upside-down on a cabbage leaf.

That is interesting Bro. Mike. I didn't even know that they were resident in desert locations. I have seen them in tropical and semi-tropical locations. Over here on the western side of the state I have never seen one.

That makes much more sense.

My initial thoughts too.
But maybe a new slant...
I remembered several years back when we were getting these folks from overseas soliciting to get an email address so they could talk privately about some money problem and "You will be rewarded very well for helping."

I hope I'm wrong, but I have the feeling the interview is wanted for the purposes of mocking our faith.  Most colleges are hostile toward Christianity in general, not to mention the Baptist denomination.  To do a paper that paints Baptists in a positive light would, indeed, be a bold move in a college English class; unless it was a Christian college, in which case it wouldn't be difficult to find a Baptist to interview.
My guess is that she discovered Westboro Baptist and wanted to do a paper on them, but they refused, so she's trying to find other Baptists to interview in their place.
Since she has remained silent, she has probably moved on.

And very often they don't reply.

Yes, a bit more information would be helpful. I for one would not want to participate in anything intended to denigrate God or His word. Are you a Christian with a testimony of your own which you would be willing to share here? 

If her request is genuine there should be no problem with giving information. But I have to say that I have seen requests such as this on my own and other forums where the person asking for information is not genuine and the motive for the request is to gather information to be used in some way against forum members. Or there is some other ulterior motive. The ones I have seen are worded n almost the exact same way, it is a college student wanting information for a class assignment.
If this is not the case here, I apologize for doubting.