KiwiChristian

James (KaoticProphet)
Please answer this one question I have for you:
If you died this very instant or in 3 hours, or 6 days, or 8 months or 3 years from this instant, are you 100% sure that you would be in Heaven?

A friend of mine has a newspaper from Mexico City from just a couple years ago. In the paper is an advertisement  from the Catholic church there, posting a bounty for all Christian Missionaries and pastors killed. Its real, I've seen it. That they don't persecute in America doesn't mean they don't in third-world areas where they still have power. Also of note is that in many such countries, Catholics differentiate themselves from Christian-they don't claim the title-they are Catholic, not Christian.
 
No doubt that the Muslims are a greater threat physically, but spiritually, the RCC is a greater enemy, since so many are fooled into believeing they are Christian when they are nothing of the sort, but are the pagan offspring of Babylon. Their festivals and feasts are all of pagan origin, their use of idols and statues forbidden by the word of God, their Mariolatry straight out of Babylon's worship of the queen of Heaven. 

Um... I wasn't talking about the cross...??  Although I will say that I love to see the empty cross - because Christ not only died for my sins but rose again! He's not still on the cross - He rose - proving Himself to be God and became the firstfruits of the resurrection - because He rose, I shall too! Hallelujah!

The teaching of the continual re-sacrifice of Christ is blasphemy.  I was not told this by any preacher, and I was not taught it in any book.  I was researching the Mass in one of my odd studies, and discovered that it was called the 'sacrifice of the Mass' because it taught the continual re-sacrifice of Christ. Hebrews specifically contradicts this teaching. Christ died once for all... by one sacrifice He hath perfected forever. There is no need of continual re-sacrifice!  Not only is there no need of it, but such a teaching spits in the face of His finished work on Calvary. "It is finished!" It is such a damnable doctrine, for it makes light of the efficacy of His blood shed once for us. It denies the Biblical teaching that 'without the shedding of blood there is no remission' (is it not called the 'bloodless offering of the Mass'?). It calls the teaching of Hebrews a lie. It is in direct contradiction to the clear teaching of Scripture! It even teaches cannibalism and blood-eating (even though in each dispensation man has been told not to eat blood).  And evangelicals today think it is just another form of Communion.  I hate it! Oh, I wish I could make you see how false and unBiblical it is.  

I did. You didn't specify the year.
 
I am not disagreeing with you regarding the evil of Islam. Catholicism, however, has murdered thousands, perhaps millions, over the centuries that it was in power. It lays low today, as it hasn't the political power to act as it used to. Now it simply tries to convince Christians/Protestants that it is just like them, and lures them 'back' into the the RCC. The sad thing is that many (most?) Christians don't understand what the doctrine of that church is, nor its history, so they believe that the Mass is just Communion, and Rome is just another Christian denomination.
 
According to Catholic dogma, each time the Mass is offered, Christ is re-sacrificed to gain more merit for sin. This is blasphemy. The Bible says in Hebrews 10:10-14:
 
"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
 
One sacrifice for all.
 
Canon 9 of the historic Council of Trent states:
"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that  nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema." 
Canon 12 states:
"If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"
 
These are in direct contradiction to the Bible which says:
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28).
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8).
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost," (Titus 3:5).
 
According to the historical practice, stated dogma (Council of Trent), and current stance (the Council of Trent has never been repealed), I am accursed to the Catholic church.  If I had lived those six centuries ago, I would probably have been drowned or burnt to death. *shudder*  They have not repealed the doctrines that led to such treatment.  I am not demonizing the individuals who have been deceived by the Roman church... I am simply refusing to be deceived myself.

Earlier you stated RCC had never persecuted Christians, that Rome did & now you say they have not for over 600 years. So which is it, never, or just not lately?
 
By the way why bring up pedophile? The RCC has done an amazing amount of that & tried with all their might to cover it all up. 

John Badby, March 1. 1410, burnt alive for opposing stating that Christ is not bodily present in the Mass.

Patrick Hamilton, March 1, 1527, burnt alive for defending God's gospel against the archbishop of St. Andrea's. he confessed Christ to be his only patron and advocate, and acknowledged free justification by faith in Christ.

George Wishart, March 1, 1546, put to death by David Beaton, the archbishop and cardinal of Scotland.

There are many that have no month listed.

Actually correct, it was the Catholics that persecuted the true Christians. The Catholics do not fear God, if they did they would stop worshiping Mary as the queen of Heaven, & place the Son in His proper position  plus they would confess their sins & get saved.
 
And no, if you've got a copy of the KJB, you've got the Word of God in your hands.

I have a question to you Michael.
Why, when I mentioned that your approach was similar to a previous poster called winegrowing, did you not at that stage point out that you were one and the same?

John quoted my post, so it was there twice?
Only now have you made this clear.

With all your accusations thrown around at other people here, maybe you should be a little more honest yourself.

I certainly have no problem with challenging and questioning, but when you are accusatory and offensive in that challenge, then you are not doing so in a God honouring way.

Get that right and you may find you get better answers.

I do by the way agree with thought of inconsistency...........

John, when someone comes on like this person, they can hardly expect people to participate, regardless of the validity or otherwise of the issue and argument.

If you show absolutely no respect to the other people, why would the other people give an answer?
My post in fact made no comment on the issue but only on the manner of posting.

A change of tone and apparent attitude would result in a genuine and possibly useful discussion. This person's current style will bring no real results, but only serve to insult and offend others - which surely can not be honouring to the Lord.

Not at all, you just need to study the Bible.
 
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
 
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
 
 
Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

You, like the previous guy wish2bflying, have a combative attitude, which makes one not inclined to entertain your questions, and your accusations against anyone who does answer in any way, do not help that inclination.

It appears to me that your interest is in attacking any opposing, or even neutral view, rather than joining with a proper discussion.

You have come on pretty strong, but you know, there are a lot of arguments made on this thread that you have completely ignored, and instead simply lumped everything you don't like into the "guilt by association" basket.  Then to top that off, you ASSUME that anyone who makes these arguments against your position are filled with pride.
 
There is far too much information out there that conclusively demonstrates that rock music in any form is not only harmful physically, psychologically, and emotionally, but more importantly spiritually for me to take any argument that says that "music" is "amoral" and merely a "personal preference."
The reason why so many Christians balk at this subject and throw up their hands in abject confusion regarding what is right and what is wrong is very simple: THEY REFUSE TO STUDY THE SUBJECT.  They merely pretend they have studied, and throw out their pet verse on that appears to favor their side, and then claim "victory" by labeling any dissenter as "legalistic" or "Pharasaical."
 
Any music that will be pleasing to the Lord will be contrary to the world, the flesh, and the devil.  It will be suitable to the character of God, which demands holiness.  The very idea that a Holy, righteous, sinless God would somehow take pleasure in music that is by its very nature rebellious, sinful, and carnal is absurd.
 
Too many people stop their study of music in Psalm 150, and then carry this idea to illogical extremes, but fail to take into account the demands of God's character.  They fail to consider that any music offered to God as a sacrifice (Heb. 13:15!) must meet the requirements of God's holiness.  That is, there should not be any admixture of the leaven of SELF, FLESH, or the WORLD in it. 
 
Good day to ya, mate!

In musician4god1611 said:
 
 
Also Soj (Matthew) said:
 
Although Brother Matthew ("Soj") classified this point under my principle that the godly husband must continually pursue a one-flesh relationship with his wife, I myself wish to present this matter as a separate principle.  I wish to do this because God's Word presents this matter as a specific command from the Lord our God.  (Note: In my book, "God's Wisdom for Marriage & The Home," I include an entire chapter concerning this matter, entitled "Render Due Benevolence.")
 
The godly husband must render the "due benevolence" of sexual pleasure unto his wife.
 
Concerning the matter of the physical, sexual relationship, Hebrews 13:4 clearly indicates that the Lord our God opposes and judges any engagement in sexual relations outside the boundary of the marriage relationship.  "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge."  On the other hand, this verse also indicates that a healthy bedroom (sexual) relationship in the boundary of marriage between the husband and wife is not spiritually defiled in our Lord's sight.  In fact, in Hebrews 13:4 God's Holy Word indicates that such a healthy bedroom (sexual) relationship between the husband and wife is actually honorable in the sight of the Lord our God.  Even so, the opening line of Hebrews 13:4 declares, "Marriage is honourable in all."  Yet God's Word does leave us to wonder if the bedroom (sexual) relationship is included in the "all" of marriage that is viewed as honorable.  In fact, the one element in the "all" of marriage that Hebrews 13:4 then specificies is the bedroom (sexual) relationship, saying "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled."  Indeed, a healthy bedroom (sexual) relationship between a husband and wife is worthy of honor from the Lord our God Himself.
 
Even so, the Lord our God actually commands the husband and wife to engage regularly in a healthy sexual relationship with one another.  As both quotes above indicated, in 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 God's Holy Word declares, "Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.  The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.  Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency."  The context of this passage clearly reveals that it is speaking concerning the physcial, sexual relationship between the husband and wife.  As such, 1 Corinthians 7:3 refers to that physical, sexual relationship between the husband and wife with the phrase "due benevolence." 
 
First then, the godly husband is to engage in the sexual relationship with his wife as an act of benevolence unto her, yea as a gift of kindness unto her.  This means that the godly husband is to engage in the sexual relationship with his wife in a manner that administers pleasure unto his wife.  Furthermore, the godly husband is to recognize that administering such sexual benevolence, kindness, pleasure unto his wife is his God-given duty.  It is a "due benevolence."  It is a pleasure that is due unto the wife, and it is the husband's God-given duty to grant it.  Even so, if the husband neglects to administer this sexual benevolence, kindness, pleasure unto his wife, he is actually defrauding (cheating) her out of that which is her God-appointed due.  Finally, the godly husband is to concentrate in the physical, sexual relationship with his wife on rendering (paying over) this due of sexual benevolence, kindness, pleasure unto his wife.  In his sexual relationship with his wife, the godly husband should not simply be focused upon having sexual pleasure with his wife.  Certainly, he should not be focused upon taking sexual pleasure for himself.  Rather, the godly husband should be focused upon rendering sexual pleasure unto his wife.
 
Now, since the Lord our God in His Holy Word commands this administration of sexual pleasure unto one's wife, and since the Lord our God in His Holy Word reveals that a healthy sexual relationship between a husband and wife is worthy of HIs honor, we should recognize that a healthy sexual relationship between the husand and wife is actually a spiritually positive matter.
 
 
So then, with this added principle, our list of principles for the godly husband is as follows:

  1.  The godly husband must always maintain his personal walk with the Lord as his highest priority, recognizing that such
       will only help him to be a better husband toward his wife. (Luke 14:26-27; Ephesians 5:18; Colossians 3:16)
  2.  The godly husband must leave his priority relationship with his parents. (Genesis 2:24)
  3.  The godly husband must continually cleave to his wife, and not ever allow himself to be separate in relationship from her.
       (Genesis 2:18, 24; Matthew 19:5-6)
  4.  The godly husband must continually pursue a one-flesh relationship with his wife. (Genesis 2:24)
  5.  The godly husband must love his wife just as Christ loved the church. (Ephesians 5:25-28, 33; Colossians 3:19)
  6.  The godly husband must nourish his wife as his own body, even as Christ nourishes the church. (Ephesians 5:28-30)
  7.  The godly husband must cherish his wife as his own body, even as Christ nourishes the church. (Ephesians 5:28-30)
  8.  The godly husband must recognize his God-declared need for the help of his wife. (Genesis 2:18)
  9.  The godly husband must ever appreciate his wife as a good gift and precious treasure of the Lord's gracious favor.
       (Proverbs 18:22)
10.  The godly husband must regularly express praise, appreciation, and thanks to his wife for her efforts of diligence.
       (Proverbs 31:28) 
11.  The godly husband must actively pursue a companionship with his wife as his dearest human friend. (Malachi 2:14)
12.  The godly husband must openly communicate with his wife in a gracious manner that is good to the use of edifying.
       (Ephesians 4:29; etc.)
13.  The godly husband must dwell at harmony with his wife in accord with his knowledge of her. (1 Peter 3:7)
14.  The godly husband must put forth the effort and energy to know his own wife as an individual. (1 Peter 3:7)
15.  The godly husband must specifically give honor unto his wife, as unto a precious treasure. (1 Peter 3:7)
16.  The godly husband must shoulder the burden of leadership responsibility, especially concerning spiritual matters.      
       (Ephesians 5:22; 1 Corinthians 11:3; Joshua 24:15)
17.  The godly husband must remember that he is responsible and accountable to his Head, the Lord Jesus Christ.
       (1 Corinthians 11:3; Malachi 2:13-16; 1 Peter 3:7)
18. The godly husband must render the "due benevolence" of sexual pleasure unto his wife. (1 Corinthians 7:3-5)

In 1Tim115 said:
 
 
In DaveW said:
 
 
In John81 said:
 
 
In DaveW said:
 
 
In 1Tim115 said:
 
Through all of these above statements, we find the Biblical principle that the godly husband must always maintain his personal walk with the Lord as his highest priority, recognizing that such will only help him to be a better husband toward his wife. 
 
Even so, in Luke 14:26-27 our Lord Jesus Christ declared, "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.  And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple."  Now, this is a matter of comparison.  It is not that we are to hate our wives, for the Lord our God Himself in His Holy Word has commanded us to love our wives.  Rather, it is that our love for Christ should be a greater priority than our love for our wives.  Yet if our love for Christ is the greatest priority of our lives, even over our love for our wives, it will only enhance our spiritual ability to love our wives as we are commanded.  Indeed, this is the reason that the instruction of Ephesians 5:18 is presented as the spiritual foundation upon which we are then instructed to love our wives in Ephesians 5:25-33 -- "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit."  Indeed, this is also the reason that the instruction of Colossians 3:16 is presented as the spiritual foundation upon which we are then instructed to love our wives in Colossians 3:19 -- "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."
 
 
So then, with this added principle, our list of principles for the godly husband is as follows:

  1.  The godly husband must always maintain his personal walk with the Lord as his highest priority, recognizing that such
       will only help him to be a better husband toward his wife. (Luke 14:26-27; Ephesians 5:18; Colossians 3:16)
  2.  The godly husband must leave his priority relationship with his parents. (Genesis 2:24)
  3.  The godly husband must continually cleave to his wife, and not ever allow himself to be separate in relationship from her.
       (Genesis 2:18, 24; Matthew 19:5-6)
  4.  The godly husband must continually pursue a one-flesh relationship with his wife. (Genesis 2:24)
  5.  The godly husband must love his wife just as Christ loved the church. (Ephesians 5:25-28, 33; Colossians 3:19)
  6.  The godly husband must nourish his wife as his own body, even as Christ nourishes the church. (Ephesians 5:28-30)
  7.  The godly husband must cherish his wife as his own body, even as Christ nourishes the church. (Ephesians 5:28-30)
  8.  The godly husband must recognize his God-declared need for the help of his wife. (Genesis 2:18)
  9.  The godly husband must ever appreciate his wife as a good gift and precious treasure of the Lord's gracious favor.
       (Proverbs 18:22)
10.  The godly husband must regularly express praise, appreciation, and thanks to his wife for her efforts of diligence.
       (Proverbs 31:28) 
11.  The godly husband must actively pursue a companionship with his wife as his dearest human friend. (Malachi 2:14)
12.  The godly husband must openly communicate with his wife in a gracious manner that is good to the use of edifying.
       (Ephesians 4:29; etc.)
13.  The godly husband must dwell at harmony with his wife in accord with his knowledge of her. (1 Peter 3:7)
14.  The godly husband must put forth the effort and energy to know his own wife as an individual. (1 Peter 3:7)
15.  The godly husband must specifically give honor unto his wife, as unto a precious treasure. (1 Peter 3:7)
16.  The godly husband must shoulder the burden of leadership responsibility, especially concerning spiritual matters.      
       (Ephesians 5:22; 1 Corinthians 11:3; Joshua 24:15)
17.  The godly husband must remember that he is responsible and accountable to his Head, the Lord Jesus Christ.
       (1 Corinthians 11:3; Malachi 2:13-16; 1 Peter 3:7)

That's true, but its also true, the heathen never makes wise selections, & neither does the canal Christian.

Why would such a conversation be lively?  Aren't the scriptures clear on the subject?  

I didn't call you a publican - that was someone else.
I pointed out a misrepresentation you made about pubs in Australia.

My question regarding the playlist was because I got the impression that you were linking to music you had actually played and recorded - I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

Can I say, your first post was combative in it's tone, then when questioned you become aggressively defensive.
you really can't expect to gain much respect with attitude like that.

I really do not want to have a discussion with someone whose 1st post on this forum calls post in this topic rubbish. You come off sounding much like a publican, without any grace in the tone of your post.

"Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die." - Proverbs 15:10

"For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." - 2 Peter 2:18-22

Brother Dave,
 
As Brother "Heartstrings" indicated in post #49 --

It means -- "an help" who is "meet for him," that is -- a “helper” who is “proper or appropriate for him or for the task of helping him?”  Grammatically, the word "help" is a noun, meaning "that which helps, a helper."  The word "meet" is an adjective that modifies that noun -- a meet helper; a helper who is meet (complementary, suitable, proper, fitting).  The prepositional phrase "for him" is an adverbial phrase that modifies the adjective "meet," indicating that the wife is not comlementary, suitable, proper, fitting in general, but is complementary, suitable, proper, fitting specifically for her husband.
 
Indeed, this is God's own definition for the wife.  In the historical record of God's Word, this was the very first statement that the Lord our God delivered concerning the wife, before He employed any other title for her or any other description of her.  By divine definition the wife is -- "A helper who is meet for her husband."  This then is God's own purpose for the wife -- that she be a helper to her husband who is perfectly complementary in helping him fulfill his God-given responsibilities.  The Lord our God had already given the first man Adam the responsibility to dress and to keep the Garden of Eden, even before He created the wife for the man. (See Genesis 2:15)  Then the Lord God created "an help meet for him" in order to help him fulfill this God-given responsibility.

Yes, part of headship is having to make the right call even when it's unpleasant, even if the wife is unhappy.
 
In my own marriage I've noticed that no matter how bad it seems at the time, it's not as bad as it seems and my wife quickly moves on from the matter.
 
I've also noticed the longer we are married the more we are in complete agreement or near complete agreement when it comes to most all things, especially the more important things.
 
There has actually only been a few times when I had to stand firm and say "no" to my wife over an issue. The vast majority of the time we have talked matters out and come into agreement.
 
With regards to Abraham, no doubt what he did was sin. Had Abraham said "no" to his wife's scheme, and spoke with her of having faith in God, talking about the faithfulness of God in their lives, the faith of both likely would have been built up.
 
God doesn't promise it will always be easy to lead our homes, to say "no" when we should, but God does promise following Him is always right.

This posting presents a scattering of thoughts concerning various of the past posts, thoughts that did not quite fit into my organizational pattern of posting.
 
In post #2, John81 said:
 
1 Corinthians 13:4-5 -- "Charity [godly love in our behavior toward others] suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil."
 
 
In post #2, John81 said:
 
Indeed, genuine godly love toward our wives, not only means that we are willing to die physcially for our wive's protection, but also that we are willing to die daily unto our selfishness for our wive's benefit.  The real question of love is not -- Am I willing to die for my wife?  Rather, the real question of love is -- Am I willing to die to myself in order to serve my wife?
 
 
In post #8, 1Tim115 said:
 
Colossians 3:14-15 -- "And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.  And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful."
 
Proverbs 31:28 -- "Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her."
 
 
In post #22, John81 said:
 
Selfishness is the foundational essence of our sinful flesh, and selfishness is the direct opposite of godly love.  Thus selfishness is the foundational reason for conflict in our marriage relationships.  As such, selfishness, in any form, is never a "little thing."  Rather, selfishness is an unrighteous, wicked, evil sin against the Lord our God and against others.  Indeed, we need to stop excusing or trivializing our selfishness.  Instead, we need to start confessing it with broken-hearted repentance.
 
 
In post #23, John81 said:
 
1 Peter 3:7 -- "Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered."
 
 
In post #23, John81 said:
 
James 3:6-8 -- "And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.  For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: but the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison." 
 
In our own ability, our tongue is completely impossible to tame.  Thus we must submit ourselves to walk under the filling influence of God the Holy Spirit.  Only the almighty power of the indwelling Holy Spirit can tame our unruly tongue.  In fact, it is only through the filling influence of the indwelling Holy Spirit that we can overcome our selfish, sinful flesh and that we can truly love our wives with godly love.  Galatians 5:16 -- "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."  Galatians 5:22 -- "But the fruit of the Spirit is love . . ."
 
 
In post #32, musician4god1611 said:
 
Galatians 5:13 -- "For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another."
 
 
In post 33, 1Tim115 said:
 
1 Peter 3:7 -- "Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered."
 
Malachi 2:13-16 -- "And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.  Yet ye say, Wherefore?  Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.  And did not he make one?  Yet had he the residue of the spirit.  And wherefore one?  That he might seek a godly seed.  Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.  For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously."

Amen, Brother "Soj."
 
The godly husband does indeed need to fulfill his God-ordained role of headship in his relationship with his wife.  Yet the husband needs to understand that according to the standard of God's Word, headship is not to be defined primarily as a position of selfish privilege, but as a position of service responsibility.  Indeed, there is a great burden of responsibility in Biblical headship; and the godly husband must faithfully and fervently shoulder this burden.  He must not neglect this burden of responsibility or leave it for his wife to carry. 
 
Now, this burden of headship responsibility can be seen in three significant categories of leadership.  First, there is the reponsibility to build a healthy, one-flesh marriage relationship.  Thus the godly husband will take the lead in putting forth the effort to develope and maintain such a relationship with his wife.  Even so, in the foundational principles for a good marriage as delivered by the Lord our God in Genesis 2:24, the first two principles are delivered specifically to the husband; then the third is delivered to both the husband and the wife.  "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."  Second, there is the responsibility to pursue the service of the Lord.  Thus the godly husband will take the lead in setting a spiritual example of love for and service to the Lord our God.  Even so, in the closing portion of Joshua 24:15, the man of God Joshua declared, "But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."  Third, there is the responsibility to train up the children in the way of righteousness.  Thus the godly husband will take the lead in training and disciplining the children according to God's Word of truth.  Even so, Ephesians 6:4 delivers the instruction specifically to the fathers, saying, "And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord."
 
To summarize all of this, I would present the principle that the godly husband must shoulder the burden of leadership responsibility, especially concerning spiritual matters.
 
Yet there is another principle to be considered from 1 Corinthians 11:3 -- "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."  Herein we learn that "the head of the woman [the wife] is the man [her husband]."  Yet herein we also learn "that the head of every man is Christ."  Thus we must understand that the husband's headship authority is delegated authority, directly from his Head, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.  Thus we must also understand that the husband is fully accountable unto his Head, the Lord Jesus Christ, for the manner in which he fulfills his headship responsibility in relation to his wife. 
 
Indeed, in Malachi 2:13-16 the Lord our God very severely rebuked the husbands of Israel for dealing treacherousnly against their wives, indicating that He is ever watching and is ever bearing witness.  "And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.  Yet ye say, Wherefore?  Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.  And did not he make one?  Yet had he the residue of the spirit.  And wherefore one?  That he might seek a godly seed.  Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.  For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously."  In like manner, the closing portion of 1 Peter 3:7 delivers the warning unto husbands concerning their right relationship with their wives, saying, "That your prayers be not hindered."
 
To summarize all of this, I would present the principle that the godly husband must remember that he is responsible and accountable to his Head, the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Indeed, this is the very lesson from the Lord that Brother "Fixation" presented in post #30 --
 
So then, with the addition of these two principles, our list of principles for the godly husband is as follows:

  1.  The godly husband must leave his priority relationship with his parents. (Genesis 2:24)
  2.  The godly husband must continually cleave to his wife, and not ever allow himself to be separate in relationship from her.
       (Genesis 2:18, 24; Matthew 19:5-6)
  3.  The godly husband must continually pursue a one-flesh relationship with his wife. (Genesis 2:24)
  4.  The godly husband must love his wife just as Christ loved the church. (Ephesians 5:25-28, 33; Colossians 3:19)
  5.  The godly husband must nourish his wife as his own body, even as Christ nourishes the church. (Ephesians 5:28-30)
  6.  The godly husband must cherish his wife as his own body, even as Christ nourishes the church. (Ephesians 5:28-30)
  7.  The godly husband must recognize his God-declared need for the help of his wife. (Genesis 2:18)
  8.  The godly husband must ever appreciate his wife as a good gift and precious treasure of the Lord's gracious favor.
       (Proverbs 18:22)
  9.  The godly husband must actively pursue a companionship with his wife as his dearest human friend. (Malachi 2:14)
10.  The godly husband must openly communicate with his wife in a gracious manner that is good to the use of edifying.
       (Ephesians 4:29; etc.)
11.  The godly husband must dwell at harmony with his wife in accord with his knowledge of her. (1 Peter 3:7)
12.  The godly husband must put forth the effort and energy to know his own wife as an individual. (1 Peter 3:7)
13.  The godly husband must specifically give honor unto his wife, as unto a precious treasure. (1 Peter 3:7)
14.  The godly husband must shoulder the burden of leadership responsibility, especially concerning spiritual matters.      
       (Ephesians 5:22; 1 Corinthians 11:3; Joshua 24:15)
15.  The godly husband must remember that he is responsible and accountable to his Head, the Lord Jesus Christ.
       (1 Corinthians 11:3; Malachi 2:13-16; 1 Peter 3:7)

Brother Dave,
 
I believe that I understand your point.  (Thus you did not completely "mash up" your explanation.)  However, I do not agree with your interpretation of closing statement of Genesis 3:16, primarily because I do not agree with your premise --
 
 
I would strongly contend that the closing statement of Genesis 3:16 is a curse statement just as every other statement within Genesis 3:14-19.  In fact, there is no other statement in this entire curse context that carries either a neutral or a positive force for the individual to whom it is delivered.  (Certainly, the statement in verse 15 concerning the serpent's head being bruised by the woman's seed carries a positive salvation-force for us, but it does not carry a positive force for the serpent (the devil) to whom it was directly delivered.)  If then we recognize the closing statement of Genesis 3:16, which was specifically delivered to the woman, as a curse statement, we must ask -- In  what manner does it serve as a curse upon the woman?
 
"And thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
 
Herein the Hebrew word that is translated as "desire" indicates a strong attitude or feeling.  However, it does not inherent indicate either a postive or a negative force to that strong attitude or feeling.  It is by the context that we must determine whether the strong attitude or feeling carries a negative or a positive force.  (This Hebrew noun is employed only two other times in the Old Testament -- in Genesis 4:7 and in Song of Solomon 7:10.  In the context of Genesis 4:7, it carries a negative force; and in Song of Solomon 7:10, it carries a positive force.)  Since the context of Genesis 3:16 concerns the curse upon the woman (as I have contended above), I would conclude that the word is intended to carry a negative force in this statement. 
 
Furthermore, the preposition "to" of the prepositional phrase "to thy husband" indicates the direction of this strong attitude or feeling.  Indeed, from the time of sin's origin within human nature and of sin's corruption upon human character, the wife would naturally possess a strong, negative attitude directed toward (or, negatively against) her husband.  Yet in what way would she possess such a strong, negative attitude toward her husband?  Certainly, she would not possess such a strong, negative attitude against her husband's love for her, or against his care of her, or against his honor to her.  Rather, the wife would now naturally (in the selfishness of the sin nature) possess a strong, negative attitude against her husband's rule over her.  In fact, this is the intended point of the closing phrase in Genesis 3:16 -- "And he shall have rule over thee."  This phrase signals the relational element with her husband that the wife will naturally (in the selfishness of her sin nature) oppose. 
 
From the beginning, the man was created for the role of leadership; and the wife was created for the role of submission.  Before sin entered into the relationship, there was no conflict with this arrangement whatsoever.  Yet after the sin entered into the relationship and corrupted its God-ordained arrangement, the wife's selfish sin-nature would ever oppose this arrangement.  This would be a part of sin's curse upon her -- The God-ordained arrangement would remain in place, but her nature would now chafe under it. 
 
In like manner, the husband's selfish sin-nature would also chare under a particular aspect of this arrangement.  Certainly, it would not oppose the privileges of the leadership role.  Indeed, the husband's selfish sin-nature would now seek to exploit the privileges of that leadership role.  Rather, the husband's selfish sin-nature would now oppose the responsibilities of the leadership role.  This is signalled by the opening rebuke of Genesis 3:17 -- "And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife."  From the first temptation of the man and from his yielding to it, the selfish sin-nature of the husband would ever move him to chafe under the God-given responsibilities of his leadership role and to neglect those God-given responsibilities.