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  1. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to John81 in Can A Parent's Own Cursing And Profanity Cause Children To   
    It's a terrible truth. Many women today think they have to cuss more than men, drink more than men, act stupid more than men, be more wild than men, in order to prove they are real women. If that's not messed up, Satan spawned thinking I don't know what is.
  2. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to Pastor Scott Markle in Shepherding The Flock - Not Knowing What, But Knowing & Trusting Who (Part 2)   
    Thought for Meditation
    This meditation is a companion to a previous meditation: Not Knowing What, but Knowing & Trusting Who (Pt. 1)

    An individual with full assurance of faith in the Lord God
    does not know how it is all going to work out, but he does know and trust
    the God who is going to work it all out.
    Psalm 52:8-9 
    But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God:
    I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.
    I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name;
    for it is good before thy saints.

    Psalm 55:22-23 
    Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee:
    he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.
    But thou, O God, shalt bring them down into the pit of destruction:
    bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days; but I will trust in thee.

    Psalm 56:3-4 
    What time I am afraid, I will trust in thee.
    In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust;
    I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.

    Psalm 57:1 
    Be merciful unto me, O God, be merciful unto me: for my soul trusteth in thee:
    yea, in the shadow of thy wings will I make my refuge, until these calamities be overpast.

    Psalm 61:1-4 
    Hear my cry, O God; attend unto my prayer.
    From the end of the earth will I cry unto thee, when my heart is overwhelmed:
    lead me to the rock that is higher than I.
    For thou hast been a shelter for me, and a strong tower from the enemy.
    I will abide in thy tabernacle for ever: I will trust in the covert of thy wings. Selah.

    Psalm 71:1-5 
    In thee, O LORD, do I put my trust: let me never be put to confusion.
    Deliver me in thy righteousness, and cause me to escape:
    incline thine ear unto me, and save me.
    Be thou my strong habitation, whereunto I may continually resort:
    thou hast given commandment to save me; for thou art my rock and my fortress.
    Deliver me, O my God, out of the hand of the wicked, out of the hand of the unrighteous and cruel man.  For thou art my hope, O Lord GOD: thou art my trust from my youth.

    Psalm 91:1-4 
    He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High
    shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
    I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
    He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust:
    his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

    Proverbs 3:5-6 
    Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
    In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

    Isaiah 26:3-4 
    Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee:
    because he trusteth in thee.
    Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength.

    Jeremiah 17:7-8 
    Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
    For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green;
    and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
    Posted in Thought for Meditation, Trust in God, Almighty Power of God Please share this post with others:

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  3. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to DaveW in Atheist Vs Christian Online Debates Fruitful?   
    The Lord knew there would be a time to walk away.

    Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

    There comes a time when it is useless to go further.
    Trick is figuring out when that is.
  4. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted in Atheist Vs Christian Online Debates Fruitful?   
    I hope no one would disagree with sowing the seed, watering, or sowing and watering. It's when the discussion begins to trample the word or our Lord in the mud we may need to consider withdrawal. God's word may cause rejection, that is one of the outcomes possible from freewill. So, yes give it with the right spirit and leave with the right spirit.
  5. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to Galations 2:20 in Atheist Vs Christian Online Debates Fruitful?   
    Our calling from the Lord is to sow the seed.  He waters.  As we are led by Him in obedience we should follow through and witness.  
    Many times our ego gets in the way and we may respond in battle mode to "prove" the truth in our might, not His leading.   Then we get in the middle of a debate which is not glorifying or pleasing to him.
  6. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to JimsHelpmeet in Atheist Vs Christian Online Debates Fruitful?   
    I guess I'm a late bloomer, but I just very recently realized it's pointless to debate online with atheists as well as people who claim they are Christians, but follow progressive ideology. Both deny the Bible as the inherent, inspired Word of God and its authority. Both deny eternal damnation. Both deny creation of the world. Both deny that there in only one way to God. Both deny that people are born with a sin nature and need to crucify the flesh daily. Both make a sport of mocking and belittling Bible believing Christians. 
    That is why, whenever someone who is a non-christian (and I will be so bold as to include "liberal Christians" in that group), is obviously solely interested in seeing believers de-convert thanks to their needling and "shining logic and reason" I ignore them. It's very discouraging to be a Christian online and have people openly ridicule your beliefs. I've never had a single debate with non-christians online in which the person said, "you know, you've given me a lot to think about". It typically devolves into, "you're clearly a brainwashed moron, so I'm done". 
    Just recently I was on a knitting forum and my avatar is of a man kneeling to pray. No less than five people derailed the conversation we were having about dinner party advice to make childish implications that my avatar looked like a man doing something dirty. When I very politely clarified what the image was, it encouraged them to make even more jokes. They are truly doing the enemy's work via the internet. He's playing them like puppets on strings.
  7. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to HappyChristian in Atheist Vs Christian Online Debates Fruitful?   
    I agree that it's a waste of time.  9 out 10 are not posting to learn anything, but rather to "teach" their anti-Christianity.  
  8. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to ASongOfDegrees in Atheist Vs Christian Online Debates Fruitful?   
    Waste of time. They're on the most part a bunch of mockers and gainsayers. I would be a better stewardship of your time to teach someone the scripture who wants to learn it.
  9. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to JerryNumbers in Atheist Vs Christian Online Debates Fruitful?   
    I think for the most part its a waste of time.
  10. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to swathdiver in Way Of Life - Tutu's Modernism   
    There are lots of liberal baptists part of the world council of churches who liken Tutu to Billy Graham or a rock star.
    The guy is a Commie first, Commie second and Socialist last.
  11. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to 1John2:15-17 in Way Of Life - Tutu's Modernism   
    Just a guess, maybe he publishes this for his audience to share with those who are not on the right path, and/or for those who do not subscribe to his updates who may stumble on his site?
  12. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to RSS Robot in Way Of Life - Tutu's Modernism   
    PrintDesmond Tutu (b. 1931), retired Anglican archbishop of Cape Town, South Africa, is frequently in the news in spite of his advanced age. 


    “Some people thought there was something odd about Jesus’ birth... It may be that Jesus was an illegitimate son” (Cape Times, October 24, 1980).


    “When justice prevails over injustice as in Zimbabwe, it shows that the kingdom of God is here already” (Ecunews, November 1980).

    In fact, the Bible teaches that the kingdom of God will be established on this earth at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in power and glory -- and not before! And certainly the kingdom of God is not now being established by communist leaders in Zimbabwe. 

    “And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THAT THE KINGDOM OF GOD SHOULD IMMEDIATELY APPEAR. He said therefore, A CERTAIN NOBLEMAN WENT INTO A FAR COUNTRY TO RECEIVE FOR HIMSELF A KINGDOM, AND TO RETURN. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. And it came to pass, that WHEN HE WAS RETURNED, HAVING RECEIVED THE KINGDOM, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading” (Luke 19:11-15). 


    “[Nelson] Mandela is my leader, and I am not going to be dictated to as to who should be my leader” (The Star, August 16, 1985).

    At the time when Tutu made this statement, Mandela was in prison for attempting a violent overthrow of the South African government. When the government offered to release him from prison if he would renounce violence, Mandela refused. Mandela’s African National Congress murdered thousands of black South Africans in its push to destroy the old government. One of its tactics was “necklacing” whereby a rubber tire filled with gasoline was forced around a victim’s chest and arms and set on fire. “The victim may take up to 20 minutes to die, suffering severe burns in the process.” Mandela’s wife, Winnie, said on April 13, 1985, “... with our boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate this country.” 

    Tutu did not support necklacing and even saved one man who was about to be murdered by rushing into the crowd and throwing his arms around the man, but he did identify publicly with the brutal ANC. 

    View the full article
  13. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to Jesuspaiditall4all in The Godly Way Women Are To Dress And Look   
    Society today has definitely taken steps backward in regards to modesty.  Between television programs, movie theaters, magazines, public beaches and amusement parks to name a few, it has become so common for people to dress immodestly that many have become desensitized to the appearance of others.  We that believe it is important to dress modestly seem to be few and far between.  Even so, we have a LORD who convicts us and guides us in our daily living.  It is my hope to be an example to those around me and if even one person notices a difference then glory be to GOD!
  14. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to LindaR in The Godly Way Women Are To Dress And Look   
    PreacherOfTruth=DeaconDixon=aka Thomas Cooper?
  15. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to heartstrings in The Godly Way Women Are To Dress And Look   
    Yes, I learned to read from a "Janet and Mark" book, run Spot, run Spot, run and we had a gay time.. But where do you get that pertaineth refers to "battle armour"??
    This is what I find......
    Word Origin & History pertain 
    mid14c., from O.Fr. partenir "to belong," from L. pertinere "to reach,stretch, relate, have reference to," from per- "through" + tenere "tohold" (see tenet). Related: Pertaining.
  16. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to heartstrings in The Godly Way Women Are To Dress And Look   
    I believe that the Lord providentially led godly men to translate the Textus Receptus into our King James Bible so that English speakers could have the pure and unadulterated word of God, without having to read Hebrew and I don't see the words "battle armor" anywere in Deuteronomy chapter 22 Do you?  God wants there to be a distinction between the sexes. We have so many girls running around in things pertaining to men, and now we have men doing the same. The line between male and female has been blurred so much for so long that now we have women wanting to be in combat and sissy men wanting to marry men. There is very little"Mystery" about the opposite sex either and has not been for a very long time because nakedness is everywhere. It's no longer very hard for a Christian to look different, and separate from this world. 
  17. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to heartstrings in The Godly Way Women Are To Dress And Look   
    Absolutely, Not dressing decent is living after the flesh....for men or women.
    Deuteronomy 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.  
    Is it also saying that a man isn't supposed to put on a woman's battle armour?
  18. Thanks
    KiwiChristian got a reaction from John81 in Christian Action Novels   
    There are two ways of looking at books, just as there are two ways of looking at music, movies or whatever.
    One is the carnal way: how did this book/movie/song please me? How much was I entertained by it? How much was my flesh gratified by it? How well was it written and how did this affect the way I enjoyed it? What was the style? What was the main theme? Etc. You may prefer to use a word other than carnal, but I use that because when it all boils down to it, you're analysing that book/movie/song or whatever from the standpoint of how much it entertained and gratified your flesh.
    The other is the spiritual way: did this book/movie/song glorify God? Did it edify my spirit? Did it make me think more about God, and the things of God, and how I should live? Did it present a solid Scriptural message, or was there mostly worldly language and activity with a little bit of Bible sprinkled on top to make it seem more "spiritual"? Did the characters behave in a God-honouring way (such as being respectful to their superiors, parents etc., keeping themselves pure, resisting temptation as far as possible), or did they walk after their own lusts and say that others should do likewise? Etc.
    Once upon a time, I only used to look at books, movies, TV shows, music and so on from the carnal standpoint. But since being born again, I am looking at them increasingly from a spiritual standpoint and starting to come to very different conclusions about them quite often.
    For example, I used to think a lot of TV shows were great. They were so funny, or so exciting, or just generally so entertaining, and I judged them by how much they gratified my flesh (and they gratified it a good deal). But now that the Lord has opened my eyes, I see the wickedness in them, the unholy lifestyles and ways of thinking being promoted, and now instead of craving them, I can barely stomach most of them. It's the same with rock and pop music. There was a time when I couldn't get enough of it, but now I see how spiritually toxic it is. I see how CCM, for all its "veneer of godliness", caters to the flesh every bit as much as secular rock does; it just throws enough of God in there so you can fool yourself into thinking you're being spiritual even while you sway your body to that sensual beat.
    I've read a lot of books in my life, many secular (including some of the classics), and a number that were Christian, or at least purported to be so. I still read a lot, although I tend to read more Christian non-fiction these days. But I have a number of Christian novels by different authors: Brock and Bodie Thoene, Jack Cavanaugh, Ellen Gunderson Traylor, Paul Hutchens, Terri Blackstock and Frank Peretti. I also had most of the "Left Behind" books at one stage, but sold them in part because their theology was a bit questionable and in part because they were big bulky hardbacks and I needed to free up some room (for more books, naturally).
    Paul Hutchens, as you might know, wrote the Sugar Creek Gang series of books. From a carnal standpoint, they tick boxes for being exciting (there is often quite a lot of danger for the boys) and funny at times. But I would rate them reasonably highly from a spiritual standpoint too. There's usually some good Biblical teaching in most of the books (although this seems to decrease as the series progresses). In some books, though not all, the Gospel is presented reasonably clearly. There is some strong preaching and teaching against assorted sins and social ills like alcoholism, gambling, racism and so on. The books can sometimes be very educational in general - nothing wrong with that. On the down side, the boys celebrate Halloween without seeming to be aware of its evil origins or caring that much, and a modern Bible version is used (although it's at least a fairly conservative translation). But on the whole, I think this is a reasonably safe series. Moreover, it depicts an America that is becoming an increasingly distant memory, although maybe that America still exists in parts of the heartland.
    The Thoenes are best known for their historical fiction, in particular the Zion Chronicles and Zion Covenant series (there is now also the new Zion Diaries series). They have also written series set in the USA (Shiloh Legacy) and Ireland (Galway Chronicles). From a carnal standpoint, you can't really fault these books. They're very well written and highly suspenseful. Educational too, quite often. From a spiritual standpoint however, they have some issues. For one thing, Roman Catholicism is treated very sympathetically (especially in the Galway Chronicles). There is no hint of it being a false religion. It is basically treated as just another Christian denomination. For another thing, there is some very graphic violence in most of the books. People get shot, stabbed, blown up and otherwise brutally murdered. Not very edifying. Then there is all the romance, some of which can get quite steamy (OK, the steamier bits generally involved couples who are married, but do we really need to be privy to their marital intimacy?). There's not much clear presentation of the Gospel. Moreover, some of the theology can get a little weird at times, e.g. in the latest Zion Diaries book there is a suggestion that maybe some of the saints who rose from the dead when Jesus died on the cross are still alive today. Bodie Thoene herself seems to have rather Pentecostal leanings. On her Facebook page recently, she was talking about praying in some Bethel church in California, and when I looked this church up, it was very radically charismatic. So for all that the Thoenes' books are a great read (you can't put them down!), there are some quite serious problems with them from a spiritual perspective.
    Jack Cavanaugh wrote the American Family Portrait series (8 books in that altogether) and has written other mostly historical fiction. Generally pretty well done. Offhand I can't remember enough about them to critique them Biblically. I know I really enjoyed reading them, but that doesn't necessarily make them sound.
    Ellen Gunderson Traylor writes (or used to - not sure if she's still going) Biblical fiction, that is fictional novels involving Biblical characters and Biblical settings. Some of her books cover people like Noah, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Samson, Ruth, John, Mary Magdalene and one or two others. Now, from a carnal standpoint, these books are all great reads. But from a spiritual standpoint, I believe they are quite dangerous, because they introduce a lot of ideas that are not in the Bible, and if you're not careful, they could adversely influence your theology. There's a bit of sensual romance in there as well. So I really can't recommend them nowadays.
    Frank Peretti is best known for his novels This Present Darkness and Piercing the Darkness. Are they great reads? Absolutely! Very exciting. But are they spiritually good? Hmm. Peretti's theology is pretty Pentecostal/Charismatic in nature. There's a lot of stuff in his books (particularly regarding the precise nature and organisation of angels and demons) that's not actually in the Bible. Still, they do kind of help make you aware of the very real dangers of the New Age, and the fact that there is a spiritual war going on all the time. Another book he wrote was Prophet. That was quite well done, but again, leaned in a Pentecostal sort of direction. I've also read The Oath and The Visitation by him, which frankly I didn't enjoy much even from a carnal standpoint. These are basically "Christian horror" novels, with a heavy emphasis on the supernatural, but very little Bible (from what I can recall).
    I haven't actually read anything by Terri Blackstock yet, but I've bought a couple of her books on my Kindle.
    Christian fiction that I can recommend wholeheartedly from a spiritual standpoint is anything written by the Castleberrys (see Castleberry Farm Press). Their Courtship Series, Farm Mystery Series and assorted one-off books are all excellent, very Biblical and use the King James Bible too. Mind you, there's the odd thing to fault even in these (for example, one book promotes Focus on the Family a little bit). But all in all, you can't go too far wrong with them, so if you want some good Biblically sound Christian fiction without an overabundance of worldliness, you'll struggle to find much better than the Castleberrys' stuff, although of course John Bunyan's classics The Pilgrim's Progress and The Holy War are also excellent in this respect.
  19. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to OLD fashioned preacher in Christian Action Novels   
    The best Christian fiction I know of would include "Pilgrim's Progress" and "The Holy War" by John Bunyan. They ARE fiction. "The Holy War" is a Christian Action Novel complete with warfare and casualties.
  20. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to HappyChristian in Christian Action Novels   
    I wouldn't say that fiction books are necessarily opposed to Christianity.  Did you ever tell your kids a make believe story?  Did they ever use their imagination when they played?  I know my son did - he played Valley Forge with Gen. Washington quite a bit during the winters when he was little.  Fiction books can do the same thing.
    We tell practical stories during Sunday School.  A practical story is (in our definition) a story that applies the Bible lesson in a way that the kids can relate to their lives (yes, that is taught with the Bible lesson, but the practical story underlines and repeats the lesson...repetition being the key to learning).  There are times we use a missionary story. There are times we use a story like The Holy War (now THERE's some Christian fiction that is absolutely fantastic!). There are times we use stories that might be based on an actual happening. And there are times we use stories that are fiction - with biblical principles as application (think Aunt Carolyn).
    So, sometimes fiction can be good.
    OFP - yes, oftentimes the man is too perfect in her books.  That is another reason I don't recommend them to teens - too many that I've known have looked for that perfect man and ended up messed up...I actually don't recommend them to anyone, per se, but if asked would say they are the best of the genre.  I read them and never got the impression that my hubby couldn't measure up (and beyond!) the main men    .
    I also do like some historical fiction.  Knowing it is fiction going in keeps me from just accepting what is written as historical fact.  But one of the things I like best is that when I do read historical fiction it usually acts as a catalyst to some nonfiction reading.  For instance, I read a ficntionalized book about Marie Antoinnette and found myself searching out nonfiction books about her and the time period.  The same with the Holocaust, etc.  Not that I have to read fiction to get me interested, but sometimes a historical fiction book will catch my interest and send me in a certain direction of reading.
    kita - who is the author? Jennifer Barnes?
    I actually have 3 books going right now - 1 fiction, 2 nonfiction (not to mention my Bible).
  21. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to Ukulelemike in Christian Action Novels   
    The 'gravy train'. Yes, I kind of see the whole Christian fiction this as I do CCM-it seems that if there is something popular in the secular world, then Christians just HAVE to have their own version of it! Secular rock music? Great! Christian rock music!  Fiction books popular? Lets make "Christian" fiction books! (even though fiction and Christianity are opposed, I thought).
  22. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to John81 in Christian Action Novels   
    It's very, very rare I read any fiction anymore. I read a great deal when I was yet unsaved, and some after that, but once I got to the point of really determining to live for God and I found there are so many helpful non-fiction Christian books out there, plus learned the importance of spending time in the Word daily, it made reading fiction seem a waste of my time.
    I read a Peretti book, This Present Darkness, or something like that. It was entertaining and parts of it gave me things to think and pray about, but it certainly wasn't meaty. While it didn't seem to go to excesses and wild imaginations as some Christian fiction, such as some of the Left Behind and other end times books, it did go some in that direction.
    That's one of the main reason I don't care for some Christian fiction, they go beyond Scripture into the realm of fantasy, and often not only do they go beyond Scripture, they invent stuff that's either possibly our actually unscriptural. For instance, where in Scripture do we get any idea at all that anti-Christ will set up his one world kingdom, controlling all things and having all power, yet groups of Christians will unite to fight the anti-Christ as a partisan army? In many of these sort of writings there are also others fighting the anti-Christ, forming their own partisan armies. Where is there even a hint of this in Scripture? Even full blown pre-trib, pre-mil folks say Scripture says everyone will take the mark of the beast except for some Christians who will be unable to buy or sell (not develop complex computer programs and forgeries to thwart the mark) and they will be persecuted and put to death (not forming armies hampering the work of the anti-Christ).
    Then there are those Christian romance novels! I've never read one, but from what I've been told and the little bit I did look at, they are little more than the same as worldly romance novels that have been censored and sprinkled with some Christianity.
    I was excited, briefly, when our tiny town library put up a shelving unit with a sign that said "Christian books". I eagerly awaited the filling of the shelf only to become instantly disappointed with what I saw. The selves were filled with Christian romance novels and Christian historical fiction (any 'historical fiction' seems to sound rather like a paradox).
    In order to head off any misunderstandings, PLEASE note that this post is in no way an attack upon anyone who reads or likes Christian fiction! I'm only stating how I look at it for myself. The reading preferences of others is their own business, so please understand this post is not in any way an attack or slight towards any who like Christian fiction.
  23. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to HappyChristian in Television   
    Don't make him angry, Larry...you wouldn't like him when he's angry! 
  24. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to Ukulelemike in Television   
    This post is so full of win! Sadly, its full of fail, too, on the part of Christians not interested in putting forth much for the Lord. We like to castigate Israel in the OT, how they turned from God, and we wonder, how could they do this? All they had was such a wonderful gift from God. Yet we don't see it here and now, in such a country as we once had, whose laws were, at least in part, built upon God, with a constitution founded on the ideal that we have rights and freedoms that God gives, not man, that man has no right tampering with. But its all gone now.
    As Christians, we have had the greatest of opportunities to spread the gospel, to plant churches, to train the brethren, but instead we waste it on seeking after signs and miracles, waving flags, gibbering like idiots and making money by looking and sounding like the world. Your comment about the vacations was right on, too-I knew a family who, at least once per month, were off for a week or two at a time to some amusement park somewhere in the country, spending thousands, yet giving little to their small church, such that the church finally had to close when they could no longer pay their bills. Instead of stepping up and saying, "How can we sacrifice a bit so we can keep going?" they complained that the pastor wasn't doing enough, and walked away when the call was put out to the whole church to do a bit more to keep the doors open.
    Americans are the most carnal, world-loving, selfish lot of Christians to take up space on the earth-we have so much, and do so little with it.
    Mind you, I know there are those who do, who give, its not all, but sadly, its most.
  25. Thanks
    KiwiChristian reacted to PastorMatt in What A True Christian Believes!   
    After he was down to one member, he still had a church split. 
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