Oldtimer

Upon the recomendation of a friend, I've just finished reading this book and do recommend it. I've also listened to a 5 part interview about the book, and have done some look up of reviews of the book, both pro and con.

First and foremost, it is written as fiction. That is evident from the beginning, so no one should be deceived from that standpoint. Someone complained about a lack of "character development" in the story line. They missed the point. The focus of this book isn't about the charcters in the book, themselves. Enough info is given to carry the story line. That was all that was needed.

The book revolves around Isaiah 9:10 (KJB)
10 The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars.

There's been much discussion about the species of tree that was toppled when the Twin Towers fell. This is a relatively minor point, IMHO. I haven't researched it in depth and will tell why in a moment. From what I understand, since the NY tree doesn't grow in the middle East, there is a species there of the same family, which is comparable in qualities (strength/durability). Thus, it serves the purpose given in the verse quoted above. If we question that in depth, we also open the can of worms regarding the name of the tree chosen by the KJB translators. The author's point was that the replacement cedar was "better" than the one toppled. Just as hewn stone is "better" than bricks.

One thing I like about the book are the extensive footnotes that allow many points made in the book to be checked. Dates of events following 9-11 for example. Some may write those off as just coincidences. A word that I rarely ever use anymore. With God at the helm, it's growing increasingly difficult to shrug off happenings as "just coincidences", whether in our own daily lives or elsewhere.

As we read and study the Bible, we can often see parallels between what happened in blibical history and what we see happening today. This author has chosen to draw a parallel between Isaiah 9:10, 9-11 and afterwards. Oh, and at the founding of this country, too, that ties some seemingly unrelated events together.

Whether you agree or disagree with the parallel, IMHO, the book is well worth reading. Simply because it will make you think, if you allow that to happen. Accept it as history is repeating itself or challenge the premise. Use the scriptures, use the references given, and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. Form your own opinion, as you are led to do so.

In closing, I read a borrowed copy that I had to return as soon as I finished reading it. I hope to have another copy soon to read a second time. This time with a pen, paper, and keyboard at hand. It's one of the few books that I've encountered in recent years that I want to read again. (Other than the Bible, as I'll never "finish" reading God's word.)

Just my 2-cents for whatever pennies may be worth to you these days.

If all those who pick up study Bibles were discerning they wouldn't be so dangerous but the fact is most pick up a study Bible because they are not yet discerning, not yet very biblically literate. Unfortunately, a great many who pick up these study Bibles take the notes to be virtually Scritpure since they are "in the Bible". This was one of the reasons King James ordered that study notes not be placed in the KJB.

That said, you do make a lot of good and valid points here. Also, if one is fairly well grounded in the Word and has matured in Christ enough to have some good discernment, they can sometimes gain from a study Bible. However, most who have made good progress in maturity and discernment in Christ find a study Bible to be of little help as they are in need of more than what can fit in the study Bible; they need an actual commentary with is much more in-depth.

I used a Ryrie study Bible someone bought me years ago. It was helpful in some things but I'm thankful I wasn't still young in the faith when I got it or I probably would have accepted stuff in the notes I should not. One drawback was having the notes right in the Bible made it seem as if there was no need to do further or more in-depth research, or to study matters out more. A Baptist pastor helped me see the error of that as he taught us (men's Bible study) good ways of Bible study.

Over the years I've been involved with and co-taught several Bible studies and I can't even begin to count the number of people that as soon as you ask a question they look to the notes in their study Bible and read it out as if that has to be the right answer; even though they often don't fully grasp the study note either. When there is no study note for a verse in question these same people stare blankly where they had hoped to find a study note, most often incapable or unwilling to put thought into the question and come up with a possible answer themselves.

The Apocrypha was originally included in the KJB for study purposes, not as Scripture itself, but was later removed because too many people were viewing the Apocrypha as sound as Scripture or even as Scripture since it was "in the Bible".

Unfortunately most professing Christians, at least in the West, are not very discerning when it comes to biblical matters. There is also the factor of laziness and the "I want it easy and I want it now" syndrome which infects most in the West. They don't want to study matters out, they want to believe whatever their pastor or favorite TV pastor says and whatever notes that are in their Bible. They don't want to take the time to be like the Bereans and study matters out to see if they are true, they want the instant answers and typically the first "answer" they get, they accept.

Some folks will argue and fight over the notes their chosen study Bible contains, thinking they are contending for the faith, when they are really contending for the perspective of the one who wrote the notes. It's bad to see professing Christians arguing that the notes in their study Bible are right and the next guys is wrong because they don't say the same thing, with none of them actually taking the time to compare the notes, read the verse the note is based upon, read the context of the verse, read related verses and study the matter out.

Anyway, in and of themselves, most study Bibles are not "bad", the problem is with how they are used. Some people can use them well and that's great. Many people don't use the correctly, with some who use them very wrongly. If a study Bible helps a person, they are good for them. If a study Bible becomes a hindrance to a person or becomes a lazy mans crutch, then they are not good for them.

I agree. I've yet to see a study Bible that doesn't contain a good deal of questionable or outright wrong ideas put forth. Another problem with some study Bibles is they don't really address the verses one really has questions about but they will put notes in there about verses that are often really clear.

Much harm and damage has been done and passed on because of study Bibles.

That bears repeating with emphasis!

As far back as I can remember, our parents gave us as much responsiblity as our age would permit. As the elder of 5, not only did I experience this, I watched it happen as my siblings grew.

An often heard phrase: Act your age! You're too old for that.

Absolutely!

Also if we look to our past, even our not too distant past, we see that by the time youth entered the teen years they were expected to be young men, not little boys. Back then there were many who joined the army or navy at 14 or 15 years old, many left home to work and begin their own lives, while those who remained at home were a busy part of working the family farm or business, or they got work elsewhere to help support their family.

A couple generations ago we taught children to become adults. By the time they were in their early teens most youth were ready to take on many adult responsibilities and were expected to conduct themselves as young men and women, not as children.

Today we teach children to remain children, to hold onto immaturity, to do all they can to avoid responsibility, to act like little children throughout their teens, to carry immaturity and lack of responsibility over into their 20s. Among an ever growing number this carries over into their 30s and byond.

This situation with the 14 year old was a bad one but he handled it well. A 14 year old boy should be expected to protect his family, to be the man of the house when dad isn't present. He did the right thing. Unless "social workers" put a bunch of garbage into these childrens minds, the siblings of that 14 year old will remember when possible tragedy was averted by their brothers brave action.

At 14 I was taking care of my siblings after school, getting them throu dinner, homework, as my parents both worked evenings.

No doubt, if we look to the unsaved for movies telling us about the Bible, Jesus, or others from the Scripture, we are looking to be led astray.

Many people are being deceived by such movies as well as TV programs like those on the History Channel which give distorted views of God, the Bible and Jesus. Outright lies and theories are put forth as truth (whether it's the idea Jesus was the child of rape, had an affair with a woman, or that God was actually an extraterestrial alien with advanced technology). Satan uses these things to further blind and confuse people.

This is just one of the many examples of why there is so much division among IFBs, not to mention in Christianity in general.

There are those who vague or unclear passages as meaning one thing, while others say they mean something else, and rather than studying such out together, with actual open minds to the Spirits teaching, they argue, attack, denigrate, name call and create rifts.

While we should all stand 100% on that which is 100% clear in Scripture, there are matters would could easily disagree on without being hostile and demand "our way or the highway".

Churches, associations and fellowships fall apart over matters such as this, whether to allow a guitar to be played and even over matters such as the color of the carpet or whether to buy padded or unpadded pews!

My response above was my first reaction to kitagirl's post. But now I justread through the email Cloud sent out regarding his new book on this subject. I see some of the names and compromises he mentions. As far as that goes, he is right.

I have enjoyed reading some of Paul Chappel's devotions for a few years, but have been seriously grieved the few times he quotes people like C.S. Lewis (an unsaved heretic) without warning against him or his writings. Something even as simple as, I don't agree with all his theology, but he made a good point when he said such and such, would have made a difference. Can't remember which church Reese was involved in (Reese Chronological Bible, which was mentioned on these boards recently, not saying Cloud mentioned him, but using him as an example), but that church does not give a warning against the biographies Reese puts out - and some are serious heretics, some even unsaved in certain cases, or at the very least someone we should be cautioned against. The music is a concern that has been creeping into churches more and more. I notice that Clarence Sexton is allowing preachers to come into his pulpit that should never be there. I love his messages, but these kind of things grieve my soul - and they are all aspects of how far does separation go.

So regardless of whether someone thinks Cloud goes too far in his warnings, these are things to be warned about. And many IFBs hate it when someone speaks against one of their churches or preachers - even if it is someone associated with Hyles, etc.

I don't know what the solution is. Being separated from all that is ungodly, worldly, doctrinally unsound, makes someone a serious loner and miserable. Been there. But the solution is not to refuse to separate and to let the world or compromise in. Being backslidden since losing my job at the Mission, I have let in some things that I should not have - partly to fit in with my brother, and partly because I just gave up fighting. BUT that is where the emptiness came in!! Now that God has given me a renewed purpose and opportunities for service, His direction to remove all these things is super clear. It is not me being hypercritical, but obedient.

So is brother Cloud going too far or being too much of a separatist? I don't know - but his warnings are worth heeding. How much they apply to individuals and their ministries or churches is something we would have to gauge for ourselves.

With your permission, that will be on our church sign soon.

Mark 6:30 And the apostles gathered themselves together unto Jesus, and told him all things, both what they had done, and what they had taught.
31 And he said unto them, Come ye yourselves apart into a desert place, and rest a while: for there were many coming and going, and they had no leisure so much as to eat. 32 And they departed into a desert place by ship privately.

I don't care one thing about any kind of 'ball' or ball games and rarely ever fish. I guess the only steady 'recreational activity' I have is playing music, and I even get paid for that. But whenever and wherever I play, I'm playing God-honoring music and lyrics. Concerning vacations; we took one a few years back up in the mountains of east Tennessee. I had asked, on an internet forum, about places to pick and sing in the area we would be staying and someone brought up the name "Jimbo Whaley" . I thought little of it, thinking that in an area with many thousands of people, the chances of hooking up with "Jimbo Whaley" were nonexisitent, but we packed all of our instruments anyway. Bluegrassers just have to find somebody to pick with. Well. to make a long story short, I had asked our pastor if he knew of any churches we could attend in that area while on our vacation. He told us one he knew of and so we planned to attend it when Sunday came around. However ,we discovered Saturday that between Sevierville and Gatlinburg there was a HUGE car show going on which had traffic backed up for miles, and would still be going on Sunday. I told my Wife there was no way I was going to get trapped in it again but I had noticed a tiny little Independent Baptist church at the foot of the mountain where we were staying, and I wanted to try it.
So sunday morning we went,and, among other things, were surprised to see that the pastor preached in overalls. We also noticed one or two guys playing guitars so we came back that night and brought our gear too. They invited us to sing a couple of specials and after service, one man invited us to a birthday party they were having the next night. So Monday night we drove across the hills and hollers, found the driveway, crossed a creek, passed a corncrib with coontails hanging all over it and houndogs tied outside. Where the driveway ended, the man's house was perched on the side of a steep hill with cows grazing up the slopes. I knew we were in hillbilly country for sure. As we got into picking with these folks they treated us like family, fed us, and as we were playing and singing hymns and spiritual songs, I felt the sweet spirit of the Lord in that little house just as we had in their church, One quiet man, to my right, could make his banjo talk and the man over to my left, was an exceptional musician who, I discovered later, was quite famous in the area. Every time his little daughter came over to him, he would put his guitar down,pick her up. hug and kiss her and give her his undivided attention. When he left, he gave me one of his band's cd's with some of his original songs on it.....his name was Jimbo Whaley, and the young man who invited us, was his brother, Andrew.

I'll never forget that vacation as long as I live. Priorities is what it's all about and the church is NOT #1 on the priority list. God is. The the Wife is second, children third, family, then church. Part of loving and serving God is how you appreciate your loved ones. All through the year, we have to put up with this cold, unthankful, merciless world and work our hectic, stressful, and sometimes physically dangerous jobs. Stress is actually physically dangerous itself. It's a killer, my friends, and there needs to be time that we can come apart,,,,so that we don't come apart. Your wife should come before your church, and your kids too. They are your #1 ministry. You need to set aside time and place where you can spend quality time with them because those opportunities won't always be there. You can go to church every time the doors are open, and you should, but if you neglect your wife and kids, your churchgoing is all in vain, because all you have is dead religion. If someone faithfully goes to church sunday morning, night and wednesday night all through the year as we do, there is not one thing wrong with coming apart for a week, or two if you can afford it, to enjoy some quality time with the family God has so richly blessed you with. And if you can find a good church to visit while you're there. But Vacationing at a beach, by trhe way, is not conducive to that midset IMO.

Ouch, Jerry. You just hit a big sore spot!

Tax dollars being spent to benefit a select few, whether business or individuals. It seems, now-a-days, the spigot is wide open with tax dollars pouring out of every governmental level's coffers. Case in point.

Massive amounts of money are being spent in this region for walking trails connecting greenways. Pedestrian bridges are being built over major highways so a select few can walk or bike along these trails from point A to point B. If memory serves, it was recently announced that a major road will be facing construction headaches and frequent closing for the next 13 months or so to install such a bridge. At the time I heard that, wondered how many millions per hiker/biker are being spent on that bridge.

There's such a bridge over the route we use to visit family in another area. It's rare to see anyone on that bridge. The majority of the time it's empty when we pass underneath. Just as the walking path that partly connects two small towns in our area. That's an abandoned railroad spur that parrallels the highway connecting them. All of the county tax payers paid to pave that narrow ribbon that's almost always empty of foot/bike traffic.

While I'm on the subject, let's not forget traffic sound walls for select neighborhoods, beach erosion repair for businesses who depend on tourist dollars, road construction projects for "entertainment/sports" complexes, a huge outlay for a nature park along side a local river, and tax dollars going to individual business interests for town beautification. (Yes, I'm on a rant this morning!) Why should my tax dollars go to paint and add awnings to Acme Five and Dime? Why should my tax dollars go to tear up the sidewalk and plant a tree in front of Joe's Beerjoint?

Yes, these special interest projects generate jobs. Short term and gone when the project is completed. Plus, the tax dollars invested in these jobs could be spent on others that serve the public interest at large. School cafeteria personnel who will actually cook healthy foods instead of buying heat & eat chicken nuggets (subject of another rant, BTW). Or for badly needed repairs to the county courthouse. Or paving a dirt road that's become a haven for 4-wheelers who keep it unfit for auto travel.

To try to get back on topic, if I can, it drives me nuts, to see my unwilling but mandated dollars go to provide more of the worldly lure of people away from church and the worship of God. Attendance at church last Sunday was down considerably due to the start of the "summer season" around here. With the end of the traditional school year, several families were on "vacation" at the constantly maintained (with tax dollars) beaches along the Outter Banks of NC.



A few months ago, Wedesday morning/evening Bible study was cancelled and that time was devoted to preparation for upcoming church event. Choir practice was not cancelled. Heard an active deacon make this comment. "I thought they'd cancel choir practice, too, so I'd get a Wednesday vacation." My reaction to that comment is better left unsaid, especially when I'm in rant mode.

Thanks for listening.

Sometimes it's overpowering (for lack of a better term) to think about all the wonders that await us, when He calls us home. To sit at His feet and learn the mysteries of the Bible that won't be revealed until then.

I can't carry a tune in a bucket, yet one day, I'll be able to sing those hymns of joy, hope, trust with a voice eartlhy mortals can't match.

To walk with Him, whether in silence, listening, and/or in song, in the cool of the day.

Genesis 3:
8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day:

It's interesting how different people react when they read a post.

When I read Trent's, my initial reaction was something along this line.

It's great to see a father actually doing something with their kids and enjoying doing so. It seems that's becoming increasingly rare these days, as parents (both father and mother) appear to be looking for anyone/anything that will babysit for them. Tomorrow is "Father's Day", yet how many men are more than simply biological parents of their children?

Then, I read Jerry's post. I believe that from the moment of conception, abortion is murder. No qualifiers, no exceptions, no excuses. Yet, I wouldn't have thought about the possibility of a "wholesome" concert for the young ones, in my extended family, would have been tied to the murder of babies. OTOH, abortion support is everywhere, today. If I were to dive into the background of the clothes I'm wearing, food I've purchased, news on TV I've watched, etc & etc. I've probably indirectly supported those who condone this murder.

Even within my own church membership, there are supporters of abortion. Witnessed, first hand, a woman storm out of a Sunday school class when the teacher mentioned, in passing, that he was opposed to abortion. Afterwards, heard several people choose sides in support of the woman. Does that mean that I should quit going to church because there are some pro choice members also attending? (Pastor has preached on the sancity of life.)

I'm not sure where I'm going with this post. On one hand, I have praises for a man who's actually being a father to his children. On the other hand, an issue about a particular activity has emerged (at least to me). One of my biological brothers is also a brother in Christ. I have no doubt about that. Yet, he's a member of a Methodist church.

Perhaps, I should close with this.

????????

Just noticed that it said this on the side of my Sweppes Ginger Ale bottle: Contents under pressure. Handle with care.

How true of us too! When we're under pressure, we need more care and careful handling - though this may be a better slogan:

Life is fragile, handle with prayer. ;)

What is our priority? Does hunting or polishing our car dominate our thinking or does the Wod of God?

Do we put fishing or baseball games before church attendance?

Are we more excited about our hobby or our time along with the Lord?

Are we neglecting to give to the Lord through our church so we can put the money back for a vacation?

Anything we put before the Lord, including family (as Jesus said), is sin. Before determining whether some activity such as hunting, taking a vacation, going to a ballgame, engaging in a hobby, is "love of the world", we must determine whether we are placing priority on that activity above our priority to God. If we are, then we are in sin. If God is first in our lives and these other things don't hinder our walk with the Lord, then we are not in sin.

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OF HUMAN RELATIONS

1. Speak to people. There is nothing as nice as a cheerful word of greeting.
2. Smile at people. It takes seventy-two muscles to frown, and only fourteen to smile.
3. Call people by name. The sweetest music to most men’s ears is the sound of their own name.
4. Be friendly and helpful. If you would have friends, be friendly.
5. Be cordial. Speak and act as if everything you do is genuinely a pleasure; make it a pleasure to do so.
6. Be genuinely interested in people. You can like almost anybody if you try.
7. Be generous with praise—cautious with criticism.
8. Be considerate with the feelings of others. Walk a mile in their shoes; their pain is real, though it may seem trivial to you..
9. Be alert to give service. What counts most in life is what we do for others.
10. Add to this a good sense of humor; a big dose of patience, and plenty of humility, and you will be rewarded many-fold.
--copied

I read the original quote at the source. Chose not to reply in that venue.

This is just my 2-cents, FWIW.

IMHO, there are some situations where it may be more damaging to Christian witness to make a reply than to just standback and watch/listen. Those firmly in the grasp of satan have the ability to negate and vilify Christians. Yes, true Christians have the armour of God to shield them. However, the undecided, who are also reading/hearing, don't have that protection. Without true understanding, will they turn away from the confrontation (abuse) they know/fear they will bear if they turn to God's word?

In some situations, we have a better opportunity, IMHO, for an effective witness to the undecided. In those, it's a combination of using God's word and the fruit of our lives bearing witness, too. In situations where undecided know us personally, our lives may be a greater testimony than any words we say. As, our lives may give the weight needed for our words, whether quoting scripture or simply stating our beliefs.

I don't believe there's a one-size-fits-all response to a statement like the one originally quoted. First, we have to decide when to stand on the side and when to step up. (Crowd in a gay bar vs a conversation in a supermaket isle, for example.) Next, we have to decide based on the context of the individual situation and the individuals involved, how to best bear witness. IMHO, that usually means staying focused on the relevant point, issue, idea during the discussion. If the conversation becomes throwing mud at the wall to see what sticks (bringing in or allowing other, possibly non related issues) it may be time to say we'll talk about this another day.

In closing, all that said, there's one other point. The role of the Holy Spirit in all of this. Seeking His guidance in when/how to respond and remembering His role in the lives of the undecided, too. Perhaps it better to let the poster in the original venue condem himself as the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to the undecided.

Thoughts?

Splitting hairs...... Labels applied to sexual deviates doesn't change the wrath of God. Separating the variations into labeled groups, allows mankind to decide which ones are more acceptable to society than others. It's more OK for two consenting adults than if one person (any age) doesn't consent. Does God make a distinction between rapists depending on the age of the victum? Or, how much a thief steals, when condemming a thief?

Who is offended when petty thieves and "master" thieves are compared? IMHO, only the ones who are guilty of taking what doesn't belong to them. If I steal a pen from work, I probably would be offended if compared to those who rob convenience stores at gun point. Yet, the Bible doesn't put a qualification on the commandment -- Do Not Steal.

In my case, (I can't speak for anyone else) bringing secular law into the discussion, leaves me wondering. How does "legal" and "illegal" have a bearing here. As far as I know it isn't illegal to eat a free meal designated for the homeless if we can afford to buy our own food. In the eyes of God what's His opinion of those who legally steal from the poor? It's legal to kill a baby before he or she emerges from the womb, but it's illegal to kill that child after it takes a breath of air. Here in the US prostitution is legal in some places and illegal in others. Will our Lord use man-made laws when we stand before Him in judgement, or His? Does man's approval (law) make prostitution or murder of babies, or homosexuality right in the eyes of God?

In this increasingly "politically correct" world, it appears that it won't be long before any opposition to satan will be more than just "offensive" to sinners. Failure to move from tolerance to condone increasingly leads to "legal" consequences for "illegal" words and deeds of professing Christians.

The best approach is to stick to the Gospel, stick to Scripture. Secular arguments won't really get anyone anywhere and it certainly won't give them eternal life.

It really doesn't matter how many other sins a homosexual commits compared to anyone else. What matters is that the homosexual is condemned to hell unless they repent and are born again in Christ (the same thing all lost souls need).

The reason behind most laws in all nations has to do with religion more than anything else. Nations which had Christianity as their dominate religion had laws reflecting this just as Muslim dominate nations laws reflect Islam. One can look to Russia, which was heavily influenced by Orthodox Christians until the communists took over and worked to supress all aspects of Christianity, and altered laws to reflect their secular, athiestic "religion".

The battle for the basis of our laws, our standard of right and wrong, here in America today isn't a matter of conservative/libertarian/liberal/socialist, it's a spiritual battle. Traditional Christianity is no longer the dominate religion of America. Secular humanism is coming to dominate, even among many professing Christians who reject much of Scripture in favor of secular philosophy.

The only way to rightly confront the isses we face in America, including the issue of homosexuality, is with the Gospel of Christ. The only hope for America is God's people humbling ourselves before Him, repenting of our sins and truly giving ourselves to Him. How many professing Christians in America are willing to give up some or all of their pet entertainments, time wasters and sins in order to spend serious time in Bible reading, study and meditation; to spend serious time in prayer, to fast and cast our wills down in order to pursue Christlikeness? How many professing Christians in America are willing to become active in their church? How many professing Christians in America are willing to live as the salt and light of Christ in their area and to share the Gospel with the lost, to disciple those who are born again in Christ?

All of these are what God calls us to yet the vast majority of professing Christians will not do this. Most prefer to pursue their own desires, to trust in politics, or to wait for someone else to do something. We can look to Old Testament Israel to see how this works out.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12

My children already have a dad who supports what's right. One thing that's right is obeying the Constitution which gives no authorization for the American government to interfere in the private, internal affairs of any nation.

If America turns from her wicked ways and follows Christ, then my children may have a better America than we have now. Otherwise, they will witness the continued downfall of America as God's judgement continues.

Rather than tackle the issues they should be dealing with, far too many politicians want to grab control of everything they can, even down to the point of telling us what size of coke we can drink.

Didn't this country used to tell communists they were wrong for trying to control everything?

Never had a facebook account.

Folks need to get their eyes off face book and get their face in THE BOOK.

Linda, I hope that you aren't accused of changing God's word, as I was, when I posted the link to a similar article. An article that I simply wanted other believers to give their thoughts about the article content. I do hope that no one calls your introductory words "Hogwash" in their passion to make their own points.

When I returned to the church, after many, many, years absence, much of what I thought I knew has been changing. With the help of the Holy Spirit, many of my "opinions" have changed in the last two years. Much of this hasn't been easy, when a lifetime of "opinion" supported by many, comes face to face with biblical truth, as the Lord reveals it to me. Often, the start of this process, is when a question, such as this thread, comes to the front burner of my awareness (for lack of a better term). On evolution, it was my pastor's challenge to how I thought I'd reconciled the word of God with what I'd been taught for 50+ years. It wasn't easy to undo all that indroctination.

When I came into this thread, I didn't state an opinion, because I didn't have a one on which I face the Lord with a "I believe this is truth". Being a young adult in the 1960's, I heard the battle cry on both sides of this issue. Saw the division it caused within my own church that was along the same lines as fighting over red carpet and other such issues. When Jesus died on the cross for me, did it matter what rags I have on my body? If the illustrations are correct, the only thing He wore was a loincloth when He gave His life to give me eternal life.

It has always bothered me when people expressing their belief in His death and resurrection, use the Sunday of rememberance as a time to show off new clothes on their bodies. Back in my day that meant children has new "Easter outfits" and ladies sported fancy new hats. I'm not leaving out the men either, with their new ties, and sometimes new suits. Echos from the past ring out as I type. Conversations before and after services focused on new hats and new ties. People complimenting each other on the one hand, while whispering about those in the congregation who either couldn't afford new clothes or chose not to deck themselves out for the Easter parade.

When I received an invitation to the church we attend now, one of my first questions was about clothing. I knew I wouldn't go to any church that placed more emphasis on fabrics/styles/fashion than it did on the Lord. The neighbor who invited us said something along these lines. It makes no difference if you come to church wearing clean (farmers) overalls or a 3 piece suit. When we kneel in prayer the Lord is looking at what we are on the inside, not what's covering the outside.

When I came into this thread, I was looking for confirmation of that or a biblical reason why that isn't the case where pants are concerned. I'm talking about decent, modest, pants on both men and women. I'm well aware of the case against those who wear pants so tight people have to lay on a bed to zip them up. (As a woman once told me about how she had to put on the jeans she wore to work.) Nor, am I talking about cross dressers trying to emulate the opposite sex with all of their apparel, not a single article of clothing.

Well, folks, I have come to a conclusion. Thanks to all who have posted. Each of you in your own way, has helped to define my "opinion" in this matter. Believers in Christ should dress in a modest manner that doesn't put articles of clothing ahead of Him. A man in a kilt or a woman in the equivalent of carpenter's pants (loose fitting style of jeans with a hammer loop on the side) can kneel at the feet of Christ with the assurance that He knows what's in their hearts.

What isn't pleasing to God is when people fight over a single article of clothing much like they fight over the color of the carpet in a church isle. There are no pants stipulations for men or women attached to:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I think I'll just get one of those cool monk looking robes. They are roomy, come with a hood and count as a classic.