Eric Stahl

When Jesus returns, the "last/end times," aka the present Gospel age, will be over.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, ² Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

 

2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

² For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

³ How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

⁴ God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

 

 

A very good question that you should ask the Scriptures. Revelation was obviously written to its first readers, before the destruction prophesied by Jesus. See Rev. 11, which prophesies the end of the temple & Jerusalem. The 144,000 Jews were sealed & protected before the four winds (4 horsemen) were released. They had been warned by Jesus to flee the city before its destruction. (Mat. 24)

 

What is this "rapture." It is not taught in the Bible. We look for Jesus' return for resurrection & judgement. You are all reading in, rather than reading.

 

 

Only 3 times? The history of Israel throughout the OT is determined unrepentant godlessness. God is longsuffering, Of course they are called on to repent, & all who repented were saved. Those who did repent in the 40 years between Jesus' resurrection and his comin in the days of vengeance ultimately fled the city. Those who did not repent suffered in the destruction. Read Acts 7 for Israel's history. Hebrews repeats the warning. The 40 years was fast running out.

 

Heb. 3:⁶ But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

⁷ Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

⁸ Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

⁹ When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

¹⁰ Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

¹¹ So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

¹² Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

¹³ But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

 

No. all the fantastic ideas put forward in these threads are the invention of those who read the Bible with dispensational blinders on. They reject the plain words of Scripture and claim a false "literal" reading that is carnal, not spiritual.

covenanter,

Do you believe the mark of the beast has happened?

To all who are not going to be raptured before the tribulation,

Zephaniah 1:14-2:3

¹⁴ The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

¹⁵ That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

¹⁶ A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

¹⁷ And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

¹⁸ Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

¹ Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;

² Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.

³ Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

The tribulation will be soon since Israel has gathered.

How will you take care of your family during the tribulation? Russia and America(((Jeremiah 6:22))) will fight a nuclear war. America will win but how will you live? This is searious!

That's another point of disagreement among many. Some say the Holy Ghost will be totally taken from the earth while others teach only the restraining influence of the Holy Ghost will be removed, but the Holy Ghost will remain, still sealing and infilling those who come to Christ during the tribulation period.

During the Old Testament times the Holy Spirit came upon men for a purpose but left them again ussualy. I believe it will be like that during Israel's 70th week of years.

To All,

John 16:7-8

 ⁷ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

⁸ And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

^{2 Thessalonians 2:6-12}

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he(((the comforter))) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

⁸ And then shall that Wicked(((666))) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

⁹ Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

¹⁰ And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. ¹¹ And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

¹² That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

(((When the comforter is taken away so will the church because he will never leave us nor forsake us.)))

Pre Tribulation Rapture

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

¹ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

³ For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

^{(((The church age saints will not go through the tribulation)))}

⁴But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

⁵ Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

⁶ Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

⁷ For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

⁸ But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

⁹For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

¹⁰ Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

¹¹Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

2 Peter 3:10-14

¹⁰ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

¹¹ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

¹²Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

^(((Why)))

¹³ Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

^(((So)))

¹⁴ Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

I will see you all at the marriage feast of the Lamb.

Indeed!  ...Just for the record - I am  8738.60 mi = 14063.03 Kilometer's from PA.

 

 

Bless ya!

Gabrielle,

You are only a prayer away.

Lord God I praise you for your kindness. I give you glory and thanks for my friends and fellow posters. Lord please bless Gabrielle and meet her needs and the needs of her family. Lord it is great that you hear and answer our prayers on even the smallest items. I ask this in Jesus name amen.

Well I personally do not know many here but I think since I am asking the question...I would like to meet Eric and BroMatt and maybe a few others [but I forgot their names - sorry]

I will meet you in heaven some glad day.

Thank you for the kind reassurance. I'm afraid I'm far from a great Christian. God nudges me back toward the straight and narrow every minute of every day. Many days I still feel like the newborn baby Christian 1 Peter 2:2 describes. I'm slowly cutting my "teeth on the meat", so to speak.

 

As far as my screen name is concerned, being a joyful helpmeet was not something that I came by naturally. I was unsaved, Pagan, and a radical feminist when I married my husband. The Holy Spirit got a hold of me and convicted me about being a helpmeet, being modest, and being a content keeper at home very quickly after I accepted Christ. 

Jimhelpmeet,

Your husband must be a real man to have married a radical feminist. HA. People willing to take a strong stand before becoming a Christian should be strong warriors for Jesus after conversion. Welcome aborad.

I have noticed that any subject we all agree on causes little discussion. I post on 4 sites. Two of them disagree on many subjects such as pre tribulation rapture. The more they argue the more I can explain. They make sure that I am very clear. There are understandings on prophecy that God told Daniel we would not understand till the end so there is still prophecy to learn.

Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth. If there was no chasening there was no adoption by God.

Hebrews 12:6-8

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

⁷If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

⁸But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

^{These are the new responsibilities from God to men and women after they sinned.}

^{Geneses 3:16-19}

¹⁶ Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

^{She will have many more children.}

^{She must follow but he must now lead!}

¹⁷ And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

¹⁸ Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

¹⁹ In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Now he must work hard and provide for the family.

²⁰ There is treasure to be desired and oil in the dwelling of the wise;

but a foolish man spendeth it up.

Many marriages suffer because of poor money management.

^{Haggia 1:5-6}

⁵ Now therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways.

⁶ Ye have sown much, and bring in little; ye eat, but ye have not enough; ye drink, but ye are not filled with drink; ye clothe you, but there is none warm; and

he that earneth wages earneth wages to put it into a bag with holes.

God told Israel that they would put their money in a bag with holes because they

didn’t give God his due!

Money is often a cause for stress in marriages.

Husbands are you giving God his due or are you causing holes in your money bag?

When I was young I was selfish in my young marriage. My wife came from very

humble beginnings so she was content. It took a few years till I matured and

corrected my life style. Thank God my wife was a better person then I was then.

We have been married 43 years and she says I am a good husband so I learned over

the years. Hugs and kisses never go out of style. Complements for any good excuse

are a good idea. Remember men what you say thank you for, you will get more of!

Praise will bring repeat actions. That goes for children and grand children too.

I am in agreement with all of that, but that isn't really a refutation of what I said about America, that issue is collateral to that, and that was the only real issue I had. And the seat referred to in Israel would be the false prophet. I know it would be beast as it reads in Rev 13, but further in Rev 16-18 it shows the differences between the 4 characters: the dragon-Satan, the first beast from the sea-Roman Empire, the second beast arising from the earth-false prophet and then the image. The false prophet has the religious influence that "exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them that dwell therein to worship the first beast whose deadly wound was healed" Rev 13. It is this beast (false prophet Rev 13:11) that is referred to as a man in Rev 13:18.

Revelation 16:10-11 There will be darkness on the seat of the beast and his kingdom. His seat is in Israel Daniel 11:45.

Habakkuk 3:11-13 sun and moon will stand still over Israel and go from view before Armageddon.

Job 38:12–13, 15, 22–24 KJV

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the

dayspring to know his place;

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm

shall be broken.

22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

—Job 38:12–13, 15, 22–24 KJV

America will be on the dark side of the earth when the permanent solar eclipse forms over Israel. America is the kingdom of antichrist which is political Babylon.

This is assuming that the verse in question was actually talking about Moscow (Gog) and not the Chaldeans, not sure which reference or statement you are reffering to here though. But the Chaldeans were a precursor to the Babylonians and both are north of Israel.

I really wouldn't offer any different explanation than I already gave for the reason that America isn't going to be involved in assisting Israel. That evidence from Exodus 19:4 shows the law of first mention regarding the eagles wings is a reference to God Himself orchestrating their deliverance into the wilderness. He didn't use any other nation to assist Him in their deliverance from Pharoah and He won't use any other assistance in Rev 12 accept the same manner of help from the earth that He caused in Exodus.

Being the daughter of Babylon is not a good thing. There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that America inherited that title because of housing the Jews, and as I said, that's not a good title to have. Notice the double references to their fall in Rev 14:8 "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" Rome does not have near the influence today that America. They have the money and the religious influence, but there are certain things that describe the other Babylon that doesn't fit Rome, like the "slaves" of Rev 18:13. In fact, if you study all of the items that this city is notorious for from Rev 18:12-14, you will find several other nations whom dominate those categories that are under Roman influence.
You have to keep in mind that just because Rev 17 clearly identifies the beast as Rome, doesn't mean that the seat has to be IN ROME, this is evident by the fact that Jesus gives other locations for where Satan dwells in Rev 2:13 (Pergamos), and during the entire Roman Empire, many provinces were considered Roman territory (Constantinople for example) even though they were not technically Rome/Italy proper. America is clearly a part of the revived Roman Empire, which is why God tells his people to come out from her. Why would God tell his people to come out from a place (Rev 18:4, Zech 2:7) if He was going to use that place to help her?

Again, it says they dwell with the daughter of Babylon, not that the daughter helps them. Clearly the reason God wants them to leave is to only avoid being a partaker of her sins, but because she WONT help her.

The rest of that I am in agreement between here and my last comment, the only thing I am not in agreement with is any role that America would have in that context.

Dr James A,

The city of Babylon is about 500 miles directly east of Jerusalem.

PAUL INDICATES THAT sudden destruction will come upon Israel after the Antichrist signs the peace treaty with many to divide the land of Israel. The Jews will finally feel safe. When the Jews feel safe, Ezekiel 38:4 explains that God will put a hook in the jaw of Magog or Russia and draw her and the Islamic alliance to attack Israel.

Daniel 11:36–45 KJV

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt him- self, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south((Egypt)) push at him((666)): and the king of the north ((Syria))shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land((Israel)), and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.((Jordan))

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44 But tidings out of the east((Persia)) and out of the north((Russia)) shall trouble him: therefore he((666)) shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

45 And he((666)) shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

During the tribulation the antichrist will put his base camp in Israel after destroying Syria and Egypt. When God puts a hook in the Jaw of Russia and draws it to Israel, the armies of the antichrist will already be there in Israel. The seat of the beast is in Israel during the wars of the tribulation.

First, Eric is right about those who do not believe being deceived because they rejected the truth:

 

 

 

 

 

Revelation shows that there are tribulation saints that are caught up during the tribulation (Rev 7:14), and the rest of those who did not believe in Christ during the ministry of the 2 witnesses and 144,000 reject Christ for the duration of the tribulation. Rev 9:20, Rev 16:9-10.

 

As unpopular as this is, the command during the tribulation is to "endure to the end" for deliverance. Matthew 24:13. "He that overcometh and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations" Rev 2:26. "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my father and before his angels" Rev 3:5. "And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire, and them that gotten the victory of the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass having the harps of God" Rev 15:2.

 

"And they overcame him by the blood of the lamb and the word of his testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death" Rev 12:11.

 

There is no seal during the tribulation as there is the church saints as in Eph 4:30 and 1:13. Victory during the tribulation is by overcoming the beast through the blood of the Lamb which leads to being martyred. The only ones who don't see martydom are the elect of Israel that God miraculously shields from the dragon. Rev 12:6, 14.

Dr James A,

Please look at post 9 and give your input.

I'm curious: if the Holy Spirit if the one restraining the Antichrist, and is taken away, whith what will the tribulation saints be sealed with? The job of the Spirit is to seal believers, so He will, it seems, still be active, meaning it isn't he that is restraining.

John 16:7-8 tells us that the comforter reproves sin when he comes into the believers. Before Jesus came, the Old Testament saints were not sealed by the Holy Spirit. It will be like that in the tribulation period. The 144000 Jews will be sealed for a purpose as the Old Testament saints were.

Seeing that America has officially, basically rejected Israel, unless something very amazing happens to cause our government to again fully support Israel, I can't see America saving them. No, I believe America will, as a nation, continue to reject Jesus, and Israel along with Him. I don't hold to the idea that somehow America will be some great God-fearing nation as we enter into the tribulation time. In fact, I believe that if antichrist was actively seeking to rule the world today, a majority of Americans, including many churches and the gvernment, would fully support and follow him.

 

I have never believed Obama was the Antichrist, but I DO believe he makes a great picture of how many will blindly follow the Antichrist, and give him all their loyalty with no regard as to who he might really be. America is already prepared to follow the devil himself to hell, should he step forward and call.

Would you call the rapture of the church amazing enough.

2 Thessalonians 2:6–12 KJV

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in
his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
38     AMERICA’S LAST WARNING
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Paul explains that someone is restraining the Antichrist. When that someone is removed from the scene, the Antichrist will come to power. The Christians who have the Holy Spirit in them are the salt of the earth and the light of the world (Matthew 5:13–16). This means that we, with the influence of the Holy Spirit in us, are presently preventing worldwide corruption the same way that the proper amount of salt preserves country ham. When God calls the Christians up in the air to go to heaven (during the rapture), He will also remove the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit. At that time, the Antichrist will be revealed
and come to power after the Christians have gone to heaven. Paul also explains that God will cause everyone who has heard and rejected the truth of the gospel to believe the lie of the Antichrist. Therefore America will follow the antichrist.

As much as I would like to see it happen that way, I don't believe that's what the scriptures actually say.

 

*Jeremiah is a reference to the Chaldeans. If you notice, the "people of the north" described in v. 21 are actually against Israel (v. 23)

 

*Isaiah 5 where the "hissing" is mentioned is derived from an old custom of gathering bees back to their place. This is where God gathers the nations against Israel. The Bible makes it clear that all nations will hate and attack Israel in the end, including America, and considering how much of Rome that America has incorporated into its politics, legal system, religion, money, it is apparent that America is the daughter of Babylon, and unlikely to be of help to Israel when it matters and even now, relations between Israel and the US are dwindling. Every US president since FDR has advocated for a one world order, and Israel and the church are an obstacle to that purpose. Why does America now support Israel? It is based 2 things, on one side, there are Bible believers that shout that God will bless them that bless Israel. When the church is gone, America will have no moral voice of reason for defending Israel. The other reason is for the corrupt bankers and assets that Israel holds which America sees as profitable in part for their continued economic prosperity. But only the first reason would be why America would feel any moral obligation to defend Israel and once that voice is gone, so is the moral support for Israel.

 

*If you read Rev 12 carefully, it is a recapitulation of the Exodus, with the exodus being a type of their future deliverance. How did Israel escape? They escaped on foot and in their own chariots (granted, in the last days, the method of transportation will have a little more technology), and in Ex 19:4 God says that He delivered Israel by an eagles wings.,Read Hosea 2:11-14 with Deut 32:11 as well. Thus going by the law of first mention, the eagles wings of Rev 12 can not be America. Furthermore, when they flee, the manner in which they flee is "like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.." Zech 14:5. 

 

Something to notice interesting in Matthew is that Jesus says pray that your FLIGHT not be on the Sabbath. Israel has their own major flight companies, but their flights are grounded on the Sabbath

 

The place where God feeds them and hides them is listed in Micah 7:14-15, Jer 50:19,20, Ezekial 20:30-37, and I Sam 25:2
 

"Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old. According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things" Micah 7:14-15

 

"And I will bring Israel again to his habitation, and he shall feed on Carmel and Bashan, and his soul shall be satisfied upon mount Ephraim and Gilead. In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve." Jer 50:19-20

 

And he feeds them from the hail. Notice in the OT when he fed them in the wilderness the manna melted after appearing in a hoary frost (Exodus 16), and now read Job 38:22--23: 

"Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?"

 

As much as I would like it to be America, I think America will be the opposite of what many think her intentions are. America is the most powerful influential nation to bring about the one world order for now. The 3 largest holders of US debt are China, Japan, and England. We know that China is one of the kings of the east that attacks Israel via the river Euphrates (Rev 9 and 16) and China opposes every UN resolution there is regarding Israel. England although assisting Israel through the Balfour declaration, reneged on most of it under Churchill who limited their borders to the current tiny area they have today, and many times during WW 1, Churchill turned Jews away from England and sent them back to their persecutors. So with China and England's history with Israel, their current holdings of our debt, and Israel being an obstacle to "world peace" it is more likely that America will side with Israel's enemies during the tribulation

(((Dr James A the Babylonians were east from Israel. Moscow is directly north of Jerusalem)))

(((America will support Israel because God calls them too. )))

(((America is the daughter of Babylon because that is where most of Zion lives now that the Jews have gone home to Israel form the Russian north. See Zechariah 2:6-7)))

Zechariah prophesied that when Israel returned to the land and Jerusalem outgrew its walls as it does today, the Lord will return. He will be a burning fire who will destroy Israel’s enemies, but unfortunately, He will also destroy Israel’s unholy people, those who do not accept Jesus as the Messiah.

Zechariah 2:6–7 KJV

6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.

7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.

Now that over one and a quarter million Jews have returned to Israel from Russia, we know that Russia is the land of the north spoken of by the prophets. In verse seven, Zechariah warned another group of Jews to go home to Israel when the Russian Jews return. It is the six million Jews in America that Zechariah is telling to go home from the daughter of Babylon. Why? The American Jews are the last large population of Jews outside of Israel. The presence of the Jews in America indicates that America is the daughter of Babylon.

(((Dr James A only the women and children will be evacuated by the eagle of America. The men will remain in Israel to fight until the antichrist wins and turns against them. Then all the nations will come against Israel and surround it. See Zechariah 14:1-5a

Zechariah 14:1–5a KJV

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided

in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal.

Zechariah saw a vision of Jewish women being rescued. In the middle of the tribulation, the Antichrist will come against Israel because they will not worship him or his image. As the armies of the world close in on the remnant of Israel, everything looks lost and hopeless.

However, at that time, the Lord Jesus will help Israel by making a way of escape. Jesus will split the Mount of Olives from east to west so that it forms a great valley when the two halves of the Mount of Olives move north and south. Israel will flee down that valley to the east while the armies of the world are stranded on the top of the Mount of Olives and all around Jerusalem.

Revelation 12:15–17 KJV

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Satan will send a great army of soldiers to pursue the fleeing Jews. Do you remember what happened to the king of Egypt’s armies when they chased Israel through the divided Red Sea in the book of Exodus? (See Exodus 14:21–31.) Something similar is going to happen again. When the army of the Antichrist follows Israel down the valley, the Mount of Olives will swallow them, infuriating Satan.

Isaiah 16:1–5 KJV

1 Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.

2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.

3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.

4 Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.

5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Jesus, the Lamb of God, is going to sit on the throne of Israel. Jesus comes to Israel to split the Mount of Olives so that Israel can flee from the dragon and the Antichrist’s army. Israel will go east, down the Lord’s valley, cross the Jordan River, turn right, and travel about one-third of the way down the other side of the Dead Sea to the river ford or the river crossing on the Arnon River in the country of Jordan and stay with the survivors of Moab.

Glad Pastor Markle there responded, saved me the trouble of writing all that out. LOL. That is what I intended in my first post. Just as the seals open up to the trumpet judgments, the final trump opens the vial judgments, and the 3rd woe is the entire series of the 7 vials which begins with the dragon being cast out unto the earth.

I have a slightly different perspective though on America's role, and where God hides Israel for the 3 1/2 years and how and what He feeds them with. Remember how he fed them in the wilderness during the Exodus! Remember the treasures of the snow in Job, and the hail stones that fall during the tribulation while the rivers and waters are polluted! I'll be back later to expound.

Jeremiah 6:21–23 KJV

21 Therefore thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will lay stumblingblocks before this people, and the fathers and the sons together shall fall upon them; the neighbour and his friend shall perish.
22 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth.
23 They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion.

God will call a great nation from the other side of the earth when the Russian alliance comes down from the north. Remember the woman (Israel) is carried away by the great eagle Revelation 12:14.

Isaiah 5:24–30 KJV

24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
25 Therefore is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
26 And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly:
27 None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken:
28 Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses’ hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind:
29 Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it.
30 And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea: and if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.

When the judgment by fire comes and the sky is darkened over Israel (6th seal) God will call a country from the end of the earth to come to Israel and carry away a prey safely. It will be that great eagle of America.

Concerning the third “woe” of Revelation,

 

Revelation 8:1 presents the opening of the seventh seal judgment, then verse 2 reveals that seven angels stood before God, “and to them were given seven trumpets.”  Revelation 8:7-12 then presents the sounding of the first four of those trumpets.  Immediately following the sounding of the fourth trumpet judgment, Revelation 8:13 pronounces three great “woes” upon “the inhabiters of the earth” and indicates that these three great “woes” are directly equivalent to the last three of the seven trumpet judgments.  There we read, “And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!”  The closing phrase of the verse, “By reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound,” communicates the equivalency of the three great “woes” to the three trumpets that were “yet to sound.”

 

Revelation 9:1-12 presents the sounding and judgment of the “first woe – fifth trumpet” judgment, ending in verse 12 with the statement, “One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.”  Revelation 9:13 – 11:14 presents the sounding and judgment of the “second woe – sixth trumpet” judgment, ending in Revelation 11:14 with the statement, “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.”  Immediately following this, Revelation 11:15 announces the “third woe – seventh trumpet” judgment, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”  Then verses 16-18 present a statement of praise unto the Lord God by the twenty-four elders that sit before the throne of God.  Finally, verse 19 presents a scene in heaven concerning the opening of the temple in heaven.

 

What is interesting with this announcement is that it does not appear to reveal a great “woe” upon “the inhabiters of the earth,” but rather presents a glorious praise of the Lord our God.  However, this declaration of glorious praise is important for our understanding concerning the “third woe – seventh judgment” judgment.  Revelation 12 presents a form of “parable” concerning the relationship between the children of Israel, the Messiah’s incarnation, and the devil.  Involved in this, Revelation 12:9 states, “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” 

 

Revelation 12:10-11 then continues, “And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”  In verse 10 we find a similar glorious praise of the Lord our God as was found in Revelation 11:15 at the sounding of the “third woe – seventh trumpet.”  This similarity between Revelation 11:15 & 12:10 seems to create a link between the two passages and their context. 

 

Then Revelation 11:16 proceeds with a pronouncement of great “woe” upon “the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea,” which is similar to and appears to create a connection with the original pronouncement of the three “woes” in Revelation 8:13.  Thus we read in Revelation 11:16, “Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.  Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”  This then appears to reveal the nature of the “third woe – seventh trumpet” judgment.  It is the permanent casting out of the devil from any entrance into heaven, even as “the accuser of our brethren,” which brings forth great joy in heaven.  It is also the casting forth of the devil unto the earth, “having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time,” which brings forth a great “woe” upon “the inhabiters of the earth.” 

Amen! 

The devil being cast to the earth is the third woe judgment on the earth and it will last for a times, times and half a time or 3.5 years. Revelation 11:14 is the mid point of the tribulation.

Revelation 12:13–14 KJV

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he
persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Before the Devil is cast to the earth in the middle of the tribulation, God will have had part of Israel rescued by the great eagle that will come from the other end of the earth to take a prey safely, according to Isaiah 5:24–30 and Revelation 12:14. I believe God will have America, the last days’ superpower and daughter of Babylon, rescue the women and children from Israel. The Jewish men will stay in Israel to fight the end-time war till they flee to the river Arnon (Isaiah 16:3) When the lord comes down and splits the mount of olives to make a way of escape Zechariah 14:1-5a.

To All,

I have read Harbinger. I think it is well worth reading by anybody that likes bible prophecy. Incite into prophecy is not shared by everyone. To me, the book describes America's place in prophecy today. I am an author of a prophecy book that is unknown and unread called America's last Warning. There are many passages that can be understood now that we are near the end which point to America in the bible. When I read Harbinger It seamed like it was a prequel to my book. I recommend Harbinger.

Eric E Stahl

The 3rd woe would be the trumpet of the 7th angel which opens up the vial judgments of Rev 16. The entire series of the 7 vials of the wrath of God would be the 3rd woe. The 3 woes are descriptive of the series of judgments, seals, trumpets, vials. They are not in chronological order as some jump ahead in time. (I'll explain later, too tired to write now). 

Some of the confusion is that pre-wrathers, preterists, historicists and covenant theologians attribute the 7th trumpet to the the trumpet of I Thess 4:13-17 and I Cor 15:51-52. They are not the same trumpet.

*the 7th trumpet is blown by one of 7 angels described in ch 8:6; In 1 Thess 4:16, it is the Lord HIMSELF that makes the shout, and with the voice of the ARCH angel. 2 things to emphasis about the angel in 1 Thess 4, it is THE, not "an" but THE arch angel, and of course, ARCH angel, not one of the 7 of Rev 8:6.  I personally believe that 1 Thess 4:16 describes 3 different catching aways as there is a clear reference to tribulation saints being in heaven DURING the tribulation (Rev 7:14) and 2 witnesses caught up in the middle of the trib Rev 11:11-12. God uses a trump specially prepared for the rapture in 1 Cor 15, so the events in 1 Thess would follow:

*the Lord Himself descends with a shout (rapture of the church)

*with the voice of the arch angel (gathering of tribulation jews during the tribulation)

*and with the trump of God (the entrance into the 1000 year reign).

 

I'll expound more later.

Rev Dr James A,

I agree that there are more than one catching ups. See my post for the 5 phases of the first resurrection. It lists the scriptures and the people caught up.

I agree that all the vial judgments will happen during the 3.5 years of the third woe and the 7th trumpet.

I would love to talk to you. You seem to be above average in understanding.

But     the third woe is a specific judgment that lasts for 3.5 years!

What is the third woe?

The Third Woe

Revelation 8:12–13 KJV

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

The last three trumpet judgments are so bad they are called woes.

Revelation 11:14

The second woe is past and behold the third woe cometh quickly.

The sixth trumpet judgment and the second woe are finished within the same hour that the two witnesses finished their 1260 day mission.

What is the third woe?

This "first resurrection" is a universal resurrection of all believers up to and including the tribulation saints that were killed during that time. The "first resurrection" is in multiple parts though, it is not a single one time event. For example Christ himself was part of this "first resurrection". Christ was raised as the firstfruits of this "first resurrection", then then believers are raised at Christs pre-trib coming for believers in the air, and lastly those saved & killed during the great trib are resurrected just prior to the thousand year reign of Christ. "The rest of the dead" refers to the unbelievers who are not raised & judged till the great white throne judgement after the end of the the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.