2Tim215

Not in the slightest, was trying to imply the the futility and painfully childish self righteousness of getting upset because you said it. The things people will pick on sometimes leaves me astonished. I think that there are far more important things to be "offended" over, but then, you did cause offense and you did apologize so - my apologies if you misunderstood me.

Most professing Christians in America don't take their profession seriously. Even among those who show evidence of actually being born again there is the problem of not giving their all to Christ. For many, so much of what they do and say is a "minor" matter or they seem to think it has nothing to do with their Christianity. They see nothing wrong with going to a bar and grill for the food, of using words and phrases that demean or belittle Christ and Christianity, wearing immodest clothes, fitting in with the worldly crowd, etc.

If we are unwilling to work on personal revival in our own lives, setting our own hearts and lives right with God, how can we ever expect the nation to do what is right?

With so few Christians actually living for Christ so they are salt and light where they are and with so many of the "soul winners" being of the "1-2-3, pray after me" variety, is it any wonder Christianity no longer has the impact upon America it once did?

The boring factor is the lack of proper engagement, & the resultant proliferation of "standard" refutations of "Calvinism."

"I heard the Gospel, & responded in repentance & faith. It was a free choice, therefore Calvinism is wrong."

The truth is that the Holy Spirit moves in our hearts, giving us spiritual life so that we willingly respond. Our will has been changed from rejection to welcoming the Gospel.


Eph. 2:1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,

The Lord changed me from a self righteous church-goer to a saved sinner, trusting Jesus. I left the Church of England & have been with Reformed baptist churches for over 50 years.

Think I have it. Coupla lines that throw me off. When you give the answer I'd like to see a breakdown line by line. Excellent riddle.

That's really sad that you place your trust in man and believe that your brother is in hell. My father was an alcoholic and much more. Was born an alcoholic, lived an alcoholic and died an alcoholic. Yet he was saved. He BELIEVED on the Lord Jesus Christ as his savior. Made a profession of faith. Understood that it was only through the BLOOD that he was saved and not by works. I know that God's Word is true and although he died an addict he now lives in Christ free, saved for all eternity. My faith is in the atoning BLOOD, not the works of man.



Please take the time to find the post where I said exactly that, you know, the ""live as he pleases" AFTER salvation" bit you love to state but can not quote me stating.

No one ever said that a person can live in sin INDEFINITELY without CONSEQUENCES - but we did state that to be saved one need not repent of ones sins before hand in order to be saved. Also, that no one has the right to call someone unsaved if there is no fruit in there live at a particular moment.

But I see now that for you it is OKAY to BACKSLIDE.

I must ask - In your Book Of Opinions - how long can a person "backslide" before they can be regarded as unsaved? Is backsliding regarded as less sin than normal sin?

Good one. I wonder how long "holding on" is according to his opinion? Is it one sin? Two? Where does it stop? How long between David's first glimpse and the death of Uriah? one day? one week? one year? How many nights of lust and planning, of holding sin close in his heart? Did he not know he was sinning? Did he really believe it was his right as king to defile another mans wife and then kill him because she was with his child? I think not. In fact, David had become so cold and calculating in his sin and attempt to cover it up, that Nathan had to tell him in a round about way to make him see it. So how long can a saved person sin before a self righteous "christian" has the right to judge him unsaved?

You are of very strong opinions, yet have as yet to quote scripture to back up your statements. I would like to see you go through all the posts and quote KJV1611 where he stated EXACTLY "that it is not God's will for us to turn from sin". I am sure that you will find that you are either twisting his words or quoting wrong. You are very quick to condemn and state everyone else as wrong. Really glad I am not a member of your church. King David may have repented when confronted by Nathan, but did he send his harem home, or remove all the false god temples from the high places that his many "wives" worshiped? Repentance is a continual turning from sin as in Davids case. Maybe, according to your doctrine, David and I can discuss it when I get to Hell one day. Because surely with all his sin he must be there.

Oh, I forgot. The bible says he was a man after God's own heart, should I ask what you are implying?

There are grave consequences for sin, whether you are saved or lost. A saved person is capable of being tempted AND capable of sinning but will be unable to enjoy it for long. The man in 1 Corinthians was living in sin and was about to be "turned over to Satan for the destruction of the body". If you sin and God never chastens you, He says you are "bastards and not sons". There proving that God chastens His own. There would NOT be such verses in the Bible if falling into sin were not possible for the Christian. "KJV1611" is telling it right and some are not being fair to this person.

By your own words you are putting the change in lifestyle before Faith in Christ. You have it backwards. FIRST one must believe, then God will do the changing. You try to make the sinner change before he accepts CHRIST. You say he must turn from a sinful lifestyle and THEN believe. But the Bible teaches that you BELIEVE and then God will help you turn from your sinful lifestyle!

Repentance is not a prerequisite to salvation.
It is inseparable from salvation.

Yes, Paul and Peter warned about false teachers and heresies way back then. I don't care if Augustine, Spurgeon or George Washington taught or believed your "Reformation" "doctrines of grace" or whatever you want to call it.. You can trust any famous man you want to. I'm going to base my belief on what's written on the pages of the King James Bible and the Bible says that "for God so loved THE WORLD.....How big is His LOVE? Did it extend to a fraction of the world or the whole thing? It completely covered and filled every crack and crevice of this planet my friend....and it says that HE GAVE.....God is a GIVER, my friend, not a TAKER. He gave His only begotten son that WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH. When all the sinners stand at the Great White Throne they will have no excuse whatsoever.because God's love was extended and made known and was freely given for EVERY PERSON who ever lived on this planet from Genesis to Revelation, from Alpha to Omega from the beginning to the end. His love is powerful and it is unlimited. He is FAR bigger and far more EFFECTIVE and THOROUGH in what He does than you credit Him. He is JUST and FAIR and He is altogether Lovely...He's not a selfish monster.. You can serve and preach your selfish limited atonement idol of your own making if you want to. I serve the Jesus who said come unto me ALL ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest take my yoke upon you and learn of me for I AM MEEK and LOWLY of heart and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Matthew 6:10, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

Matthew 11:14, "And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come."

II Sam. 16:3, "And the king said, And where is thy master's son? And Ziba said unto the king, Behold, he abideth at Jerusalem: for he said, To day shall the house of Israel restore me the kingdom of my father."

Acts 1:6, "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

Acts 13:46, "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."

Matthew 10:5-7, "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7) And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Matthew 15:23-24, "But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Acts 28:27-29, "For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
29And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves."


Acts 3:12, 19-21, "And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

Heb. 8:10-12, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

Romans 11:25-29, "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."


Those are some Bible study good verses for the casual reader to look at. Piecing them together the picture should become pretty clear. There are plenty more.

Also, see point number 7 in my "Problems with Preterism" article: http://ricksarticles.blogspot.com/2011/04/problems-with-preterism.html

As a dispensationalist this is how I would describe Gods plan/plans. First off God has a perfect will/plan of what would be the very best way. This is the way things would be if everyone did exactly what God told them to do. At any point man has been given the free will to follow that perfect will of God or do something else. In that sense man can "overrule" Gods best plan. On the other hand God being omniscient is always an infinite number of steps ahead of man and therefore man can never surprise God and do something God hadn't already planned for. In that sense man cannot change Gods plans because God knows what the free will choice of man will be before man makes it. For example, the fall of man. It was Gods "best" plan that man obey him and thus never sin and fall. However God being omniscient knew that man would choose to sin and therefore God had already planned for that from the foundation of the world. The fact that God is omniscient and not bound by time in no way means mans choice is not free though.

In the case of Israel they could have accepted him as the messiah, it was a genuine offer(Matthew 12:7 etc.), but of course God being a infinite number of steps ahead of them knew they would choose to reject him which is why it was prophesied throughout the OT.

Repentence is not "prerequisite" to salvation. There is no "step one. step two...." The only "precursor" mentioned is
godly sorrow" and even that is something we have no part in doing. Godly sorrow LEADS us to repentence. As for repentence, it's meaning appears to be more specific than "feeling sorry".or even merely "turning" Consider this usage.

1 Samuel 15:11It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

Notice God never says here that He himself repented for making Saul king. Here is another....

Genesis 6: 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Here again, God never says that he regretted or "repented" of making man: Instead, it says "IT REPENTETH ME". What is He saying? He's basically saying that his creation had turned against Him. It's the same meaning in 1 Samuel 15: His making Saul king had turned against Him too. Try "plugging in" the term "turn against: in every place the KJB mentions repent and I think you will find that is it's basic meaning in virtually every case. God's creation turned against Him in Genesis 6, God Himself turned against the evil He intended for the city of Nineveh, and when a person gets saved, he sees himself as a lowdown sinner and turns against himself TO Jesus. It's all part of beleiving. When you truly "believe" on Jesus, you turn against self and turn to God. You do an "about face" if you will. There is no "step one step two". It's all part of genuine belief. Multiple things may LEAD to salvation, such as the goodness of God, the "handfulls of purpose" of His blessings, the hearing of the Gospel preached, experiencing the fear of Hell and the "godly sorrow" but the actual "act" of being saved takes place in the blink of an eye. You turn against sin and self and turn to Jesus. If you refuse to turn against self, you never really believed at all. because in order to be "saved" or "rescued" there must be the realization of something to be saved FROM.

I agree it can get pretty close.. If taken in the wrong direction... As I quote "I'm just now (hopefully by God's grace) coming out of the legalism I fell into." "(Then I fell again into fruit seeking... :/)"
As if I have not these fruits/preserve enough one can have no assurance. Which isn't biblical IMO. (If I have them they aren't perfect.. So they have sin as well. In which case what differ they from any other unsaved person's works? :/ God requires perfection so we can't lose sight of it.. (Ps 130:3) If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? My fruit won't and will never pass this test.. So I can't use it at all to see if I am in Christ or no.. If one does "check fruit to make sure they are in Christ" They look to their fruit (as a new law) and not to Christ. And if they see the sin therein they are condemned and that pains of hell gets hold upon them (Unless they lower the standard of holiness...) bringing them into bondage.. Then one goes around to produce more or better fruits (and seek to be made perfect by the flesh (whether they say By grace I do it! or not.) Which worsens their state even to feeling hell over them every moment like unto eternal death on earth.) Then they fall hopefully enough to go to Christ.. (Phil 3:8) Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,

___________

Can a Christian continue in sin?



(Rom 6:1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

No.

(Rom 6:2) By no means. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

(Rom 6:3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(Rom 6:4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

(Rom 7:6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

(Rom 8:2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

(Gal 5:6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
(Gal 6:15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

(Rom 6:5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
(Rom 6:6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
(Rom 6:7) For he that is dead is freed [in Greek: justified] from sin.
(Rom 6:8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

This is full assurance (As Abraham in Rom 4 and John 3:16)

(Rom 10:6) But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]; )
(Rom 10:7) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

To doubt your salvation is to do this.. :/ though thankfully there is forgiveness with God that he may be feared.

(Rom 10:8) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(Rom 10:11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.)

(Rom 6:9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
(Rom 6:10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
(Rom 6:11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin has no more dominion over me because it has no more power over me (The law is fulfilled and I died and now live [and am complete] in Christ.) Therefore in that faith I can bring forth fruit. ((John 15:5) I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.) Fruit isn't only huge deeds (which one should do too.) But, fruit is whatever I do by faith in Christ. (1Cor 10:31) Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.)

(Gal 2:20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

We are dead (Justified from all sin) and alive unto God through Jesus

(Rom 6:12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Therefore let us not sin seeing what great things he has done for us..

(Gal 5:6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

(Rom 6:13) Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
(Rom 6:14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Sin shall not have dominion because sin cannot hurt us any longer. We are no longer debtors to the law. Christ has fully atoned. We are now fully justified by grace alone.

(Rom 8:12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

(Gal 4:22) For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
(Gal 4:23) But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
(Gal 4:24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

We are no longer debtors to live after the flesh (the righteousness which comes from the law.)

(Rom 8:13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

(Rom 3:20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
(Rom 3:21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
(Rom 3:22) Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

(Gal 5:18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Faith is one of the works of the Spirit, if we walk by faith which worketh by love and not by sight (works); we will live.

(Rom 8:14) For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
(Rom 8:15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

(Rom 6:15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? by no means.

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace because sin is not imputed where there is no law and we no longer have the sin imputed by Adam? by no means

(Rom 6:16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of abounding offenses Under dominion/bondage to the law to death or abounding offenses to obedience to the faith unto the righteousness of Christ?

(Rom 1:5) By whom we have received grace and apostleship, to the obedience of faith among all nations, for his name:

(Rom 5:16) And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

(Rom 6:17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Hence my comment above.

(Rom 6:18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Free from our old husband the law and now being reconciled and justified we can serve Christ being clothed in his righteousness.

(Rom 6:19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
(Rom 6:20) For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

We had no righteousness at all because without faith it is impossible to please God.

(Rom 6:21) What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.

Those things = our good and bad works by the law which are all filthy rags..

(Rom 6:22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

We are freed (innocent from sin through Christ.)

(Rom 6:23) For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Even our good is sin.. and of course our bad the wages thereof is death; but the gift of God (Romans 5, John 3:16)

(Rom 5:14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
(Rom 5:15) But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
(Rom 5:16) And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

Many offenses.. (As all we do has sin therein.) We must be wholly justified by Christ. If we look for our being in Christ from our works, if we are honest we will find death because our works are sinking sand. But, if we don't see any works at all or even if we do (seeing the deadness in our fruit.) Our response should be to trust in Christ thereby abiding in him and count all else but dung.

(Rom 4:17) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
(Rom 4:18) Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
(Rom 4:19) And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
(Rom 4:20) He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
(Rom 4:21) And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
(Rom 4:22) And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
(Rom 4:23) Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
(Rom 4:24) But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
(Rom 4:25) Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Well can a Christian be in continual sin?

What is a Christian? Not one that does but one that receives all he has from Christ alone. So yes we can have many offenses. But, by no means should we live therein. I struggle with pride and it attacks me almost constantly and sometimes I am being proud at work and think (look how good you are doing compared to..!!) Or instead of let me work well and be nice and be a good witness for my Lord! Greed attacks all of a sudden and mixes in to my dismay I catch myself being nice (in which case being nice is an act of greed..) to get a $5 compliment coupon.. The flesh is always there sin is always there.. For example; Because one suffers with the outward form (yelling) and not just the the spiritual form (anger). Is that sin to big for God? No, and he will perfect that which concerns them at the resurrection. In the mean time we must suffer (Rom 8) with our imperfections in hope for the removal thereof... (for me my continual battle with pride, Idolatrous images of Christ in my mind etc.. I try to slay it them when I find them staying I can't give up. I must say go ahead flesh if you must go ahead all you want.. I agree I am a sinner worthy of death.. Yet I will trust in my Lord and wait in hope and by God's grace I will overcome you soon and also in that day finally you will be gone!

But let everyone that confesses Christ depart from iniquity for his names sake.

I have no problem understanding the fundamentals of the Christian Faith. And to say I handle the word of God deceitfully is insulting, but if they persecuted Jesus, then I expect no less for his servants.




Please do not slander me in your posts. I have defined repent over and over and over again in this thread. Here are just a couple of the quotes from myself.





So I ask YET again, if repent means to TURN FROM SIN as you keep insisting it does, then explain how GOD REPENTED.

I have no problem whatsoever explaining it using the definition I have given over and over and over again in this thread.

I have posted verse after verse showing the biblical definition of repentance. I have posted verse after verse showing that the Bible says to BELIEVE for salvation and NOTHING else.

Not one verse has been posted proving that repentance for salvation is anything other than turning from unbelief to belief. Plenty have been posted with peoples OPINIONS that it means turn from sin, but not one actually SAYS it.

The change happens after salvation, NOT before.

Linda, I believe you are very close to believing the same as what scripture teaches on repentance, but I think your logic is circular. You are saying the believer is eternally saved, yet cannot live as he wants and goto heaven. Circular logic that doesnt make sense. I think what you MEAN is that he will have a DESIRE to live a different life because God saved him. This does NOT always mean he will follow that desire though. A saved person can feed the flesh more than the spirit and live a carnal life and is just as saved as someone living a victorious Christian life.

Swathdiver, you posted a verse about "keeping God's commandments" as if that is what saves a soul. When a person believes on Christ, they have fullfilled ALL of the LAW because Christ takes their place as a perfect substitute. He is the end of the law to all them that believe.

John81, You quoted that "and that repentance and remissions of sins should be preached" - Turning from unbelief to believing on Christ DOES give remissions of sins. Turning from sinning to not sinning does not. Instead of inserting a preconceived definition into the word repent, use a biblical definition. If salvation is by believing, and remission of sins is by believing, then the only thing you could repent (turn from) to be saved would be your UNBELIEF.

StandingFirmInChrist, you posted "Any person that believes that he or she can continue in sin and still be saved is only fooling himself." The bible CLEARLY teaches it is all FAITH apart from works. That means good living is not a part of salvation. FAITH alone. By your own words here in many of your posts it is very evident you believe in a faith PLUS works based salvation. I hope you will actually take the time to read over all of the verses I have posted from the scripture on ONLY believing. If you believe faith plus works, you cannot be saved.

2Tim215, I appreciate the support. It's always nice to find a like-minded person to talk with.

My goal of posting this thread was not to stir up controversy, but to clear up confusion. There is much confusion on the issue, and its because of a preconceived idea of what repentance is. Many are now turning to a faith plus works salvation and to lordship salvation....all of which ultimately lead to hell.

I agree, it is not a believe on Jesus only and be saved doctrine. It's a believe with complete understanding (heart, mind, body, soul) that He is the only way to the Father. That He died for you and the WHY He died for you. Repentance comes after salvation not before. How can one repent before the fact? It is only after salvation that through the Holy Spirit and the Word that we truly are aware of how sin separated us from God. Before salvation we only have an intellectual understanding of sin and how it separates us. How can any man repent of sin spiritually before salvation when he is dead in sin? The flesh can not repent and be saved as this body will physically die in sin. It is the soul that is saved and circumcised through Christ at salvation not the body. It is the soul that is eternally saved. And now because the spirit is quickened through Christ we are AWARE of sin in the flesh and must then repent of it. Repentance is an ongoing action until we die in the flesh, but the soul is no longer accountable as it is separated (circumcised) through Christ and seated in heavenly places.




Do not make assumptions based on nothing just because you don't like nor understand what "these fellas " are trying to say. I have been IFB for 25+ years and have studied for my bachelor of divinity through a respected IFB college in the USA. Just because your doctrine is based on Calvinism and mine is not doesn't make me any less saved than you.

Salvation is based on faith and we hope as Paul and the rest did in eternal salvation (Tit 3:7; Tit1:2; Gal 5:5) and what makes yours based on the doctrine of men any better than mine based on the Word of God? Not once have I intentionally mocked or ridiculed any of you but myself and KJV1611 have been called reprobates, unsaved and other things. Is this the the reaction of saved believers? I think not according to the following scripture:

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Salvation needs to be understood in the mind, accepted in the heart and believed by the action of confessing Christ as Lord. And I would rather base my salvation on the Word of God any day over the doctrine of men!!

Below are all the scriptures you posted and I find it strange that the one thing this discussion is all about is - is repentance a prerequisite for salvation - and you will note that you quoted Eph 2: 8+9 - clearly states by faith alone and not by works - no mention of repentance there. And every other verse quoted concerning how we live after salvation has an action required on our part (highlighted red), so basically you confirm with the scriptures you provide my point.

My point is we do not need to repent to be saved - only believe and the fruit and change in our lives is reliant on our actions but could never come about without God in our lives - He gives us the ability to change and bear fruit - yet it is our choice in the end to obey Him and allow Him to "renew our minds" and change our hearts.


Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Out of context and not applicable to the gentiles - Jesus was speaking to the Jews here - salvation through His death and resurrection had not yet come about - everything was still by works.


Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

You forgott - 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

And we know that the judgment seat of Christ is for believers only, so explain the "good or bad"

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent ( meaning turnabout) and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance( the "meet" meaning worthy of their decision to turn about).

1Th 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

Since the "November Revolution" when the Communist Party took over our government and began its conversion to "GODvernment" the old United States of America is gone, replaced by a new entity: the United Socialist States of America. Here are some of the differences between these two countries.

The USA was a Republic. The liberals who control the News Mafia, public schools and Hellywood so hated this form of government that they refused to admit it was our true, constitutional government. Therefore, they always referred to the USA as a "Democracy" even though it wasn't. In a Republic everyone is represented. In a Democracy only the majority rules.
The form of government the USSA will have will be neither. It will neither represent everyone nor the majority. Instead, it will start out as an "Oligarchy," which is ruthless rule by a select group of people. (Liberals) This is the government of China. It may later morph into a "Dictatorship" which is ruthless rule by one individual. (Obammie, the Commie) We may never again see a free and fair election in this country. The citizens of the USA believed in hard work. They believed you had to work hard to get ahead in life.
The citizens of the USSA believe they are going to strike it rich overnight. This is not their fault. They have had 45 years of the "no God" philosophy taught them, while being shown the lives of the rich & famous. They have had fun, sex and pleasure subtly forced into their bloodstream until they cannot think of anything else. They never knew that their school teachers were addicting them to the drug that would destroy them. ("Sworn to Fun! Loyal to None!") The citizens of the USSA also have been indoctrinated to believe in "GODvernment." Where the citizens of the USA turned to GOD in times of crisis the citizens of the USSA have been taught to turn to the "GODvernment" in times of trouble. So, if they have a financial crisis, or feel they have been discriminated against, or have storm, flood or fire damage they look to their infallible, all-knowing-all-loving "GODvernment" to right their wrong. Why turn to God? He might expect you to live righteously. "GODvernment" rewards unrighteousness. It is our real friend! In the USA people who worked were looked up to. If they managed to become rich because of their labors they were held up to the public as examples of the rewards of hard work.
Thanks to countless movies that have portrayed all corporate executives as being greedy and corrupt and years of the vile Democrats portraying anyone who was "The Rich" as deserving to be taxed out of existence, the citizens of the USSA all assume that anyone with money came by it dishonestly or unscrupulously and deserve to have it taken by the "GODvernment" and redistributed to "The Poor," a mythical group used by Liberals as an excuse to steal money from citizens but who never get any of the loot. Citizens of the USA loved it! They knew their country as an innocent, God-fearing nation that helped other countries and fought for right. Its families were pure and its conscience was clear.
Citizens of the USSA have been corrupted. They believe there is nothing pure or good about their country. Filthy Liberal college professors and school teachers, along with Hellywood and the News Mafia, have convinced them that every father has molested his children; every white person is a racist bigot; every company is corrupt; every preacher is a money-grubbing womanizer; every police officer is on the take; every politician is crooked. Citizens of the USSA believe that everything in their country is inferior to that of the rest of the world. Their health care is inferior, their food is inferior, their water is inferior, their cars are inferior; their motives are dishonorable; their desires are corrupt and every hero has a sinister secret. In fact, where men (I said MEN!) were willing to go out and die for the USA, citizens of the USSA believe that the entire nation deserves to be punished and that there is nothing pure worth fighting for. In the USA the purity of a young lady was almost sacred. Anyone who violated it was vile and should be shamed by all who met him. Any girl who gave herself away was a "whore" and was ostracized.
In the USSA all young girls are taught in school and by Hellywood that they are to be whores! The only goal of all young men and women is sexual pleasure. Anyone who disagrees is to be destroyed. How long will it be before some Hell-deserving Liberal says, "There are no jobs in this country. If we legalize prostitution our young women will all be able to find work."? Believe it or not, in the USA television made heroes out of those who were, "brave, courageous and true." A hero was good and a villain was evil.
Television in the USSA exalts anything abstract from that which is normal, pure and good. That vile pornographer, Hugh Hefner is exalted as a hero. Daytime television seeks out the lowest forms of life and exalts them as good and acceptable. In the USA homosexuals, psychics, witches, vampires, wizards, sluts and whore-mongers were portrayed in a negative light. Preachers, Police and parents were exalted as good and people to be emulated. In th USSA these vile people are upheld as honorable while the "Three-Ps" are vilified. The framers of the USSA hate anything pure or moral or good. There was free speech in the USA. People said, "I disagree with what you say but I'll die for your right to say it."
There is no free speech in the USSA. Working as subtle as the Devil who guided them, Liberals decried "Hate Speech." Then they outlawed it. "What moral person could be in favor of Hate Speech? Who would dare defend such a horrible practice?" Strangely though, when a friend of those same Liberals, such as the Muslims, spewed hatred with every word, the two-faced, hypocritical Liberals defended their "free speech rights." In the USSA only "GODvernment-approved" speech is free. The citizens of the USA had little but where happy. The citizens of the USSA have much but are unhappy. They seek more but cannot get enough. Where those of the USA where gracious and kind, those of th USSA are mean, selfish and dangerous. "GODvernment" apparently hasn't made them a happy people. The citizens of the USA went to church. Even if it was a church of impure doctrine it generally taught some sense of righteous living and decency.
Citizens of the USSA have been addicted to pleasure and fear the restraint any religious teaching might force on them. They like to call themselves "Spiritual but not religious," a term subconsciously inserted into their seldom-used brains but which they think they thought of themselves. They shun churches. They now have "Wedding Chapels" so they don't have to darken the door of a church to get married. They have "Funeral Chapels" so they can avoid church as their last defiant act. They have replaced God with the earth and define righteousness simply as anything they do. They set up shrines along the roadways to illustrate to the world their "pain" and worthiness of eternal life. While they will deny themselves nothing for God they deny themselves nothing in their quest for pleasure. Citizens of the USA and USSA agree on one thing. They both think their country should only be inhabited by legitimate citizens. Illegals must go! Unfortunately, to citizens of the USSA, citizens of the USA are considered "illegals."



http://samgipp.com/

WHY CAVINISM IS GROWING AMONG INDEPEPENDENT BAPTISTS

The following are some of the replies I received from pastors in regard to why Calvinism is increasing among fundamental Baptists:

The following is from Pastor Wilber Unger, Bethel Baptist Church, London, Ontario, --

“First, I think it is a response to the sickening practice of shallow, unscriptural methods of evangelism in our Baptist Churches. Any believer with spiritual discernment must conclude, in time, that what we have seen for the last 35 years is not true Biblical evangelism. As a movement in general we have deceived people who are now hanging on to a false hope and will die and go to hell--little different than the RC church or any other false religion. ... As a consequence of the above mentioned condition, some churches may now be swinging the pendulum in the opposite direction. I think I did that at one point.

“Secondly, there are a lot of popular names in our day who are promoting Calvinism. A large percentage of the books available are written by Calvinists who are subtly promoting their unscriptural teachings. Many people will accept what they say based on the credibility the so-called Christian community has given them. In my opinion, very few people really accept the Word of God as their rule for faith and practice. Most people are content to accept what they hear because they trust the speaker or writer. Following a leader who is persuasive and seemingly sincere and popular is good enough for them. Bible truth is of lesser importance. If the plain words of Scripture don’t mean what they say and if new definitions have been given to words and people willingly accept such serious error how can you help them?

“Thirdly, I think there is a serious ignorance as to the heresy in Calvinism. Augustine, who is accepted by Rome as one of its church fathers, is quite heretical in many of his teachings. When Luther and Calvin came along, they came part of the way out of Rome and gave new life to some of Augustine’s teaching. In some cases, Calvin exceeded Augustine’s heresies. Both men kept infant baptism, and both persecuted and killed “heretics”--those who followed the word of God faithfully and rejected the heresies of Calvin. I think if people knew the history of Calvinism and its heretical position from the beginning, they wouldn’t be so easily deceived by it.

“Fourthly, Reformed theology has become popular and Premillenialism is losing its appeal and influence. I believe this is in preparation for the whole Protestant movement to make its way back to Rome. It is very sad to see Baptists who are so loose and careless with God’s Word, move in the direction of compromise; first with the worldly evangelicals and later with Rome. God forbid!

“Fifth, I think it is unwise to align ourselves in any way with Calvinists who seem to be evangelistic, and some are! For example, Ian Paisley’s group or Peter Masters in London, England. I have listened to some of Ian Paisley’s sermons and I think he is a powerful preacher and filled with the Spirit, but he holds to Calvinism, and that is dangerous.

“My burden and prayer is to see God raise up a new generation of Baptist believers who truly follow God’s word as their only rule for faith & practice. May God in His rich and wonderful grace give us a harvest of souls and laborers to do the work of taking the gospel to our community and beyond.

The following is from Pastor Bobby Mitchell, Mid-Coast Baptist Church, Brunswick, Maine www.midcoastbaptistchurch.com:

“You may know this, but I am convinced that an important link to the influx of Calvinism among fundamentalists is Ian Paisley and the Free Presbyterians. Dr. Paisley has been introduced to young Baptist men and women for decades at BJU and other schools, now including Crown College. My dad was a student at BJU in the early 1970's. He has told me many times that Paisley was the favorite preacher there. Of course, students bought his books and were influenced further by him.

“My dad can point you to young men that left BJU’s undergraduate programs to enroll in Presbyterian seminaries because of the Paisley influence. Of course, there are Free Presbyterian churches in Greenville, such as the one my dad’s old college friend joined and had his babies sprinkled in. This man left the Baptist ranks because of the Paisley influence at BJU. Another Baptist preacher who I am close to lost his ‘Timothy’ to Presbyterianism after this young man left Ambassador Baptist College and went to BJU for his master’s work. There he was introduced to reformed theology and is now a baby-sprinkler.

“Clarence Sexton had Ian Paisley and other Presbyterians in to preach at his church and school over the last year. I listened via the internet as he introduced Paisley and made light of the fact that he is a Presbyterian and we are Baptists. There was no warning of the fact that the Free Presbyterian church views baptism as a ‘controverted issue’ that is a matter of ‘personal liberty.’ There was no refutation of their Calvinism. As a matter of fact, the Reformers' portraits line the halls of Temple Baptist Church.

“Because Dr. Paisley is such a tremendous speaker I predict that many of the young preachers training at Crown will become further involved with his books and theology. I will not be surprised to see a battle over Calvinism taking place in the dormitories and classrooms of Crown College in the future.

“He is presented as ‘a Baptist that goes by the label Presbyterian,’ but we know that is not the truth. Dr. Paisley is an avowed Presbyterian. The difference should be defined and clear to Baptists. The pastors and students that I know of who protested the preaching of Paisley and other Presbyterians at a Baptist conference (Temple/Crown) have either been ignored by Pastor Sexton or told things like, ‘don’t be divisive.’

The following is from Pastor Chris Matthews, Smoky Valley Independent Baptist Church --

“I am not certain if this will be what you are looking for or not. These are some observations I have made over time, they are solely my opinions.

“1. Many have turned to Calvinism as an answer to the lactose or nonexistent presentation of repentance in salvation given by most present day IFBs. 1-2-3 repeat after me is the extreme opposite of Calvinism and both are ditches on either side of the narrow way.

“2. Others yet have seen it as the ‘intellectual’ theological view. This is how many on the web present the doctrine, especially as they speak of the reformers’ writings.

“3. Another possibility is that many want to have an excuse to live like the devil and blame the fact that their kids turned out like hellions on ‘my children were not of the elect.’ I don't see this as a conscious decision but a possible reason none the less.

“4. Most have not heard a clear cut presentation on the errors of Calvinism from their pastors and/or church leaders. Nor have they heard the biblical definitions of biblical words that Calvinists pervert.

“5. Many look at Charles Spurgeon as next in line after the trinity and want to be like him. It would be better in my opinion if they would just smoke his cigars instead of choking on his Calvinism.

“6. It is a status symbol to say I am of the elect.

“7. Calvinism's cohorts seem to think that they have a better understanding of God than anybody else.

“8. Possibly the biggest reason is the infiltration of churches by Calvinists. Every now and then you hear about a church into which a family comes and secretly spreads the lie of Calvinism among the people and then leads a church split. This is not just happening in Baptist or fundamental churches, either.

“There are probably many more reasons and even more exceptions to those reasons. We as pastors and preachers need to teach our people the errors of Calvinism and of its torch holders. I have expressed to our congregation that the quickest way for somebody to be removed physically from the premises is for them to propagate the false teachings of Calvinism or Charismaticism.

CONCLUSION

There is no doubt that Calvinism is increasing among independent Baptists. It is prolific within the General Association of Regular Baptists and is increasing dramatically among Southern Baptists.

As already noted, a chief culprit in the growth of Calvinism is literature. The writings of John Piper and John MacArthur are popular among fundamentalists. The writings of the Puritans and of Charles Spurgeon, who was deeply influenced by the Puritans by his own testimony, also contribute to the growth of Calvinism. On a recent trip to England I had a nice visit with Dr. Peter Masters at Metropolitan Tabernacle. He graciously showed me the various artifacts associated with previous esteemed pastors, particularly Charles Spurgeon and John Gill. Dr. Masters told me that visiting preachers often like to sit in Gill’s chair, which is located in a hallway outside of Masters’ office; but I told him that I would be afraid that I might catch Gill’s Calvinism!

I admire a great many things about Spurgeon and the Puritans and many modern-day Calvinists, but I vehemently disagree with Reformed theology regardless of who teaches it and how much I might agree with them on other matters. I must make an issue of it, because they make an issue of it!

I reject the Quick Prayerism doctrine that is so prevalent among independent Baptists just as vehemently, and I have no doubt that the unscripturalness of this popular evangelistic program and the doctrinal shallowness of many independent Baptist churches and schools has caused some to fall into the arms of Calvinism and its more intellectual approach.

Having studied the Bible earnestly and prayerfully for 34 years and having studied both sides of this issue, I am convinced that neither Calvinism nor Quick Prayerism is Scriptural.

I have no ill will toward those who differ, and I thank the Lord for every good thing in them; but here I must stand, and I believe it is an issue worth standing for.

For more on this subject see

I was having a discussing somewhere else about the whole I John 3:9 thing. That verse is one of the single greatest verses on eternal security in the entire Bible! A born again Christian in John 3:9 lacks the ability to sin and yet that same person (in the same book) is told that if he says he has no sin he's lying in I John 1:10. Comparing this to Romans 7:15-24, Hebrews 10:14; 4:12, and Col. 2:11-13 the explanation is clear: part of you sins and part of you is unable to sin. The old nature sins the new nature does not. The old nature lives within your body, which will be replaced with a new body at the resurrection. The body of a Christian sins but his soul and spirit, where the new nature reside, does not.

Chapter 16 in my eternal security book is all about this. Click here for the link to read that chapter.

I find it amazing that intelligent people believe some are chosen and some not. The entire bible shows free will in man's interaction with God from Adam's creation and fall to the last verse in Revelation. There has always been choice and the consequences for those choices. It's very easy to take individual verses and passages out of context and create a doctrine, but we must never forget that the Word is also a True history of God's dealings with man and a revelation of His character in those dealings. We must take the Word in it's entirety from first word to last and if we believe that it is the entire inspired Word of God and is in order from beginning to end and never contradicts itself - then we must take any and all verses and passages dealing with any doctrine and compare it in light of the entire message that the Word teaches and with the character of God revealed and then we will see that God has always given man a choice in regards to his interaction with God.