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2Tim215

Independent Fundamental Baptist
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  1. Thanks
    2Tim215 got a reaction from LindaR in Paycheck for fulltime worker? Is it Biblical?   
    How about the other side of the picture. I have approached many "missionary" organizations in the past and because I don't go to a church as the closest IFB church that I trust is over 950 kms away and they only have 20-30 people on a good Sunday, I am not an "acceptable" candidate for missions work. I have been to most of the churches here in my town and their doctrine is so far off I usually end up walking out during the service.I do not have a trust fund, I do not believe in asking for money and God hasn't supplied as yet so I have stopped trying. Many a young man has been called and short of God Himself depositing money into their bank account are unable to afford to study or enter the ministry. Many churches these days I find are tight fisted with their funds and will usually only assist those who have been involved in the church for some time. You can't really blame them though as many have abused the trust placed in them over the years.

    I agree that SFIC is a bit strong in his view concerning "deputation" and "begging" for assistance, but is he wrong concerning the faith issue? Not in my opinion. Too many pastors, missionaries and others doing church work are in it for the wrong reasons and are not called and shouldn't be doing it. They cause more harm than good. So if God doesn't provide then you can be sure that you shouldn't be there because if He has called you He WILL make a way. He didn't make a way for me so I have to believe that my "calling" was my desire and not His will for me. This is just my opinion from my own personal experience. So without some form of making it known that God has called a young man into the ministry how else are they to proceed?
  2. Thanks
    2Tim215 got a reaction from John81 in Paycheck for fulltime worker? Is it Biblical?   
    How about the other side of the picture. I have approached many "missionary" organizations in the past and because I don't go to a church as the closest IFB church that I trust is over 950 kms away and they only have 20-30 people on a good Sunday, I am not an "acceptable" candidate for missions work. I have been to most of the churches here in my town and their doctrine is so far off I usually end up walking out during the service.I do not have a trust fund, I do not believe in asking for money and God hasn't supplied as yet so I have stopped trying. Many a young man has been called and short of God Himself depositing money into their bank account are unable to afford to study or enter the ministry. Many churches these days I find are tight fisted with their funds and will usually only assist those who have been involved in the church for some time. You can't really blame them though as many have abused the trust placed in them over the years.

    I agree that SFIC is a bit strong in his view concerning "deputation" and "begging" for assistance, but is he wrong concerning the faith issue? Not in my opinion. Too many pastors, missionaries and others doing church work are in it for the wrong reasons and are not called and shouldn't be doing it. They cause more harm than good. So if God doesn't provide then you can be sure that you shouldn't be there because if He has called you He WILL make a way. He didn't make a way for me so I have to believe that my "calling" was my desire and not His will for me. This is just my opinion from my own personal experience. So without some form of making it known that God has called a young man into the ministry how else are they to proceed?
  3. Thanks
    2Tim215 got a reaction from 1John2:15-17 in Don't Spank Your Kids or They'll Turn out Like Rick   
    Children, like dogs (oooooh, think I might upset a few with that) need to learn boundaries. I train both the same way. The RULE OF THREE. Once, twice - then the applicable punishment. Most times they stop at two :knuppel:
  4. Thanks
    2Tim215 got a reaction from Steve Schwenke in Will A Man Rob God?   
    Any one stop to think that because money is a object that does not decay, and that gold and silver is universally accepted that God purposely used the fruits of the harvest as a tithe in order to curb corruption as it could not be stored for long and to show that Gods provision was renewable and daily, not to be hoarded? Just a thought I had.
  5. Thanks
    2Tim215 got a reaction from Steve Schwenke in Will A Man Rob God?   
    John, I am in no way saying that we should not be content in all things. That God does not provide our every need at the right time. And you are 100% right about the car, in hindsight we can always see His wisdom in His provision, even though at the time it may seem suspect, or not quite what we were hoping for, it's always for the best. What I am saying though is that we have not because we ask not. That we have been conditioned by life, false doctrine, the church and previous unanswered prayers to ask Him for little and not for much. That we give up to easily when it comes to petitioning God for a need. That we expect second best and thus that's all we ask for. God has put principles into play when it comes to prayer that He stands by. I am playing with possibilities of prayer and the outcomes of what we ask for in my thoughts here - have been for a while. And I am beginning to come to the conclusion that He wants us to ask more from Him and not give until we get it, that prayer in the lives of believers and the church is the most important thing to learn right and maintain daily with consistency. That we have forgotten how to pray and need to relearn this and that when we do then great thing will be done in His name for His glory. There is nothing wrong with money, with having it and using it, as long as one knows that it all comes from Him, belongs to Him and that we are only stewards of what He has given us and that EVERYTHING we do is to His glory.
  6. Thanks
    2Tim215 reacted to John81 in Will A Man Rob God?   
    Through personal witness, support of our local church and all its outreach, the missionaries our church supports and a missionary in India we help support.

    God nowhere promises believers the best of everything, he promises to meet our needs.

    Since you referenced the car, that 15 year old car with 200,000 miles on it has served very well and being an older car the insurance is lower. Had God sent us a new car, that would have required much more insurance and would have cost a great deal more.

    As Paul said, he knew how to be thankful and content when God provided only his most basic needs and also when God supplied him abudnantly.

    God knows the beginning from the end. He knows what is absolutely best for us at all times.

    God wants His people to be seen following him in faith, joy and contentment no matter their situation. He wants others to see Christ in us and be drawn to that. God doesn't give his people great riches and earthly success for the world to notice and lust after.

    Riches can be a terrible snare. Those who have riches in this life, but don't have Christ, have already received the best they ever will. Those of us in Christ, whether rich, poor or in between, have a blessed eternity filled with treasure much greater than anything on this earth to look forward to.

    As the three young Hebrews told the king, God is capable of saving from the fire, but whether He does or not, they will be faithful to Him. The same should be true for us. God is capable of giving us all things on this earth, but whether He gives us abundance, a goodly amount or just the basics, we should be faithful to Him.
  7. Thanks
    2Tim215 got a reaction from Steve Schwenke in Will A Man Rob God?   
    You know. one thing SFIC is right about is the lack of faith in our modern "Christianity". I say this in a broad spectrum as I know of pastors that live by faith alone and I know of many "workers" that don't. My pastor is a IFB pastor who lives by faith alone and is poor by the worlds standards, my friends uncle is a charismatic one that has three cars, a 6 million Rand home in a exclusive town in the Cape and travels the world preaching and staying in luxury.

    I myself have had a heart for missions since I was 6 and have learnt the hard way concerning mission boards and missionary organizations. If you don't have the funds or a big enough church to back you then don't bother trying. I have also stepped out in faith and seen what that can do. Have seen God provide where it seems impossible to make it week by week let alone month by month.

    SFIC has always "seemed" to come across arrogant, hard, unwavering and unilateral in his doctrinal views. Is this a bad thing? Must he bow to the pressure of those of us who disagree? I say no and can grudgingly respect him for his ability to stand firm on what he believes on this forum. Whether this is true in his life I do not know, but I do PERSONALLY feel he should be more open to being teachable. That being said, I also believe that because modern Christianity has abused the financial issue and others, we have thrown the bath out with the dirty water. Why must pastors who preach sound doctrine and stand fast to the original principles (fundamentals) be poor? Why do we seem to expect second best from God? Why must we get the old car? Thrift store clothing and hand me downs? Why must those who have a calling to do Gods work struggle and make do? We say because this keeps us on "our knees". That it strengthens our faith and teaches us to pray and seek out God. That if we have too much we become self reliant and not God reliant. Must a pastor work outside a church to provide and thus be self reliant, or must he work in the church full time and be God reliant. Are churches to blame that force pastors to sign employment contracts where the church dictates their every move? How much of today's standards concerning the payment of God's workers is worldly based or scriptural?

    Personally, I have decided in my own life that I will not be a slave to a mans church, that I will not "beg" for food. That I will not be forced to work two jobs, one for the world and one for God (we cannot serve two masters). That I will NOT expect NOR accept second best to serve the GREAT I AM. A man I went to school with circumnavigated Africa on a bicycle and came up with this - No food for the lazy man - we know it's biblical version - Gen 3:19. I have yet to meet a pastor that preaches the truth that is lazy - their lives are always consumed by their service often to the detriment of their health and family, so why do they not deserve the best from God or the church they serve. Many give up personal dreams and desires to serve God so why is the expected norm amongst fundamentals that they must "dumpster dive" to live? Are we not the children of the Most High?

    I know without a doubt that I am called to preach. I started my studies in faith alone. I stopped my studies because I will not accept second best from God nor from His church. I will not dumpster dive because its expected as a character builder, nor will I live in poverty because some believe that as I pastor I am not "working" for my living.

    Is SFIC right concerning his viewpoint on faith?




    Yes he is sadly. But If God is the author of our faith why is our faith never enough that we must incorporate worldly practices to meet the needs of those who serve Him.? Is it because we are so used to expecting second best from God.

    John stated :



    Why are we conditioned to expect so little from God? Why does this seem to be the prevalent attitude amongst bible believers and not modern charismatics? They seem so blessed while we seem so poor. Is this right? Have we lost sight of God's power to give abundantly? Is our faith lacking somehow yet theirs is not? Or do they milk the system and this IS the way God blesses us? With the scraps from the table?

    He then states :



    True, yet I quote another statement :



    Why could God not give a new car? Why second best? Yes it served their needs perfectly. Yet I have to ask do we ask for second best and that is EXACTLY what God gives us because that is what we expect? I have seen in my prayer life where God has given me exactly what I asked for and what I asked for was second best because I did not believe He would give me the best - some food for thought there!

    SFIC stated :



    Was this specifically for the disciples or is it applicable to the church? Was the church in effect then? Is this "doctrine" for us? Did Jesus not say this to teach the disciples faith in order to prepare them for when He left? So then why does Paul give instruction to the churches to gather as God has "prospered" them?

    1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
    1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
    1Co 16:3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

    That a collection be taken before they arrive? Is this not asking for "funds"? Was Paul not relying on God when he requested this? Was his faith not enough? Was he relying on man and not God?

    Yes the 10% tithe is not mentioned in the NT as doctrine for the church, But SFIC, is it WRONG to use it as a guideline? We see above that collections were "ordered" by Paul - an INSTRUCTION to the churches, that we are to give freely as God has prospered us, but I personally have never had God verbally instruct me on how much, sometimes though,we "feel" how much we are to give, yet again, is it wrong to give a guideline to the average Sunday pew warmer who only opens up their bible for ten minutes while the pastor preaches on how much to give? I don't think so IMHO.

    You ask :



    I ask :

    Where is the verse that says the KJV 1611 AV is the true Word of God?

    Yet you stand by this belief. We here all do. You go as far as to say that the Jesus of any other version is a liar and sinner, yet without any scriptural evidence to the contrary you believe that the KJV is Gods true and inspired word.

    When I left everything behind to go and study to preach I met a cantankerous old man in the IFB church God placed me in. A "brethren" that by his own statements had been asked to leave over 10 churches, even his brethren fellowship. He single handedly destroyed my faith - in God, myself, my calling and the church and to this day I wonder why God put him in my life. Mostly I humored him and though my pastor warned me, out of politeness and respect of his age I compromised my beliefs and principles by keeping quite, believing this to be a lesson in humility as he was paying me to do home repair work that he could no longer do. I was wrong. I needed the funds and believed that this was Gods provision. I was wrong again. His doctrinal viewpoints, attitude to those who disagreed and standing remind me very much of yours and I do not say this to condemn or judge you, but to remind you that men of your age and understanding of the word have a responsibility to the "babes" in Christ, one to be taken seriously, so pray very very hard before making statements or teaching doctrine that could adversely affect the growth of fellow believers, that you cause no offense - teach in love yet don't compromise the truth, but make very very sure that what you teach IS THE TRUTH from GODS WORD not the commentaries of man.

    2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
    2Co 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
    2Co 6:5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
    2Co 6:6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
    2Co 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
    2Co 6:8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;

    I hope and pray that I have not offended you by this post and pray that you take the time to pray and know the heart of God, the same God we both serve, the same Word we both read and soften your heart and remember "CHARITY"
  8. Thanks
    2Tim215 got a reaction from 1Timothy115 in Will A Man Rob God?   
    You know. one thing SFIC is right about is the lack of faith in our modern "Christianity". I say this in a broad spectrum as I know of pastors that live by faith alone and I know of many "workers" that don't. My pastor is a IFB pastor who lives by faith alone and is poor by the worlds standards, my friends uncle is a charismatic one that has three cars, a 6 million Rand home in a exclusive town in the Cape and travels the world preaching and staying in luxury.

    I myself have had a heart for missions since I was 6 and have learnt the hard way concerning mission boards and missionary organizations. If you don't have the funds or a big enough church to back you then don't bother trying. I have also stepped out in faith and seen what that can do. Have seen God provide where it seems impossible to make it week by week let alone month by month.

    SFIC has always "seemed" to come across arrogant, hard, unwavering and unilateral in his doctrinal views. Is this a bad thing? Must he bow to the pressure of those of us who disagree? I say no and can grudgingly respect him for his ability to stand firm on what he believes on this forum. Whether this is true in his life I do not know, but I do PERSONALLY feel he should be more open to being teachable. That being said, I also believe that because modern Christianity has abused the financial issue and others, we have thrown the bath out with the dirty water. Why must pastors who preach sound doctrine and stand fast to the original principles (fundamentals) be poor? Why do we seem to expect second best from God? Why must we get the old car? Thrift store clothing and hand me downs? Why must those who have a calling to do Gods work struggle and make do? We say because this keeps us on "our knees". That it strengthens our faith and teaches us to pray and seek out God. That if we have too much we become self reliant and not God reliant. Must a pastor work outside a church to provide and thus be self reliant, or must he work in the church full time and be God reliant. Are churches to blame that force pastors to sign employment contracts where the church dictates their every move? How much of today's standards concerning the payment of God's workers is worldly based or scriptural?

    Personally, I have decided in my own life that I will not be a slave to a mans church, that I will not "beg" for food. That I will not be forced to work two jobs, one for the world and one for God (we cannot serve two masters). That I will NOT expect NOR accept second best to serve the GREAT I AM. A man I went to school with circumnavigated Africa on a bicycle and came up with this - No food for the lazy man - we know it's biblical version - Gen 3:19. I have yet to meet a pastor that preaches the truth that is lazy - their lives are always consumed by their service often to the detriment of their health and family, so why do they not deserve the best from God or the church they serve. Many give up personal dreams and desires to serve God so why is the expected norm amongst fundamentals that they must "dumpster dive" to live? Are we not the children of the Most High?

    I know without a doubt that I am called to preach. I started my studies in faith alone. I stopped my studies because I will not accept second best from God nor from His church. I will not dumpster dive because its expected as a character builder, nor will I live in poverty because some believe that as I pastor I am not "working" for my living.

    Is SFIC right concerning his viewpoint on faith?




    Yes he is sadly. But If God is the author of our faith why is our faith never enough that we must incorporate worldly practices to meet the needs of those who serve Him.? Is it because we are so used to expecting second best from God.

    John stated :



    Why are we conditioned to expect so little from God? Why does this seem to be the prevalent attitude amongst bible believers and not modern charismatics? They seem so blessed while we seem so poor. Is this right? Have we lost sight of God's power to give abundantly? Is our faith lacking somehow yet theirs is not? Or do they milk the system and this IS the way God blesses us? With the scraps from the table?

    He then states :



    True, yet I quote another statement :



    Why could God not give a new car? Why second best? Yes it served their needs perfectly. Yet I have to ask do we ask for second best and that is EXACTLY what God gives us because that is what we expect? I have seen in my prayer life where God has given me exactly what I asked for and what I asked for was second best because I did not believe He would give me the best - some food for thought there!

    SFIC stated :



    Was this specifically for the disciples or is it applicable to the church? Was the church in effect then? Is this "doctrine" for us? Did Jesus not say this to teach the disciples faith in order to prepare them for when He left? So then why does Paul give instruction to the churches to gather as God has "prospered" them?

    1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
    1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
    1Co 16:3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

    That a collection be taken before they arrive? Is this not asking for "funds"? Was Paul not relying on God when he requested this? Was his faith not enough? Was he relying on man and not God?

    Yes the 10% tithe is not mentioned in the NT as doctrine for the church, But SFIC, is it WRONG to use it as a guideline? We see above that collections were "ordered" by Paul - an INSTRUCTION to the churches, that we are to give freely as God has prospered us, but I personally have never had God verbally instruct me on how much, sometimes though,we "feel" how much we are to give, yet again, is it wrong to give a guideline to the average Sunday pew warmer who only opens up their bible for ten minutes while the pastor preaches on how much to give? I don't think so IMHO.

    You ask :



    I ask :

    Where is the verse that says the KJV 1611 AV is the true Word of God?

    Yet you stand by this belief. We here all do. You go as far as to say that the Jesus of any other version is a liar and sinner, yet without any scriptural evidence to the contrary you believe that the KJV is Gods true and inspired word.

    When I left everything behind to go and study to preach I met a cantankerous old man in the IFB church God placed me in. A "brethren" that by his own statements had been asked to leave over 10 churches, even his brethren fellowship. He single handedly destroyed my faith - in God, myself, my calling and the church and to this day I wonder why God put him in my life. Mostly I humored him and though my pastor warned me, out of politeness and respect of his age I compromised my beliefs and principles by keeping quite, believing this to be a lesson in humility as he was paying me to do home repair work that he could no longer do. I was wrong. I needed the funds and believed that this was Gods provision. I was wrong again. His doctrinal viewpoints, attitude to those who disagreed and standing remind me very much of yours and I do not say this to condemn or judge you, but to remind you that men of your age and understanding of the word have a responsibility to the "babes" in Christ, one to be taken seriously, so pray very very hard before making statements or teaching doctrine that could adversely affect the growth of fellow believers, that you cause no offense - teach in love yet don't compromise the truth, but make very very sure that what you teach IS THE TRUTH from GODS WORD not the commentaries of man.

    2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
    2Co 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
    2Co 6:5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
    2Co 6:6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
    2Co 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
    2Co 6:8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;

    I hope and pray that I have not offended you by this post and pray that you take the time to pray and know the heart of God, the same God we both serve, the same Word we both read and soften your heart and remember "CHARITY"
  9. Thanks
    2Tim215 reacted to swathdiver in Prayers Needed   
    I've walked out of more doctor visits than I can count because the clerks demanded more money up front than was due them, if any at all. Seems they are mighty confused with all the different insurance plans out there.

    UPDATE:

    Thanks so much for your prayers and support. With these new doctors (fired the old one and hired a new one) they have finally, rightfully identified and explained my condition to me and have taken immediate steps to improve my health. So far it's working. With all the new activity I've been able to do, I'm pretty sore but Glory to God I'm feeling so much better!
  10. Thanks
    2Tim215 got a reaction from Steve Schwenke in Will A Man Rob God?   
    Have you ever done this? Stepped out "in faith" and God supplied ALL your needs? I have and fell flat on my Balaams talking ass. And don't tell me that my faith wasn't sufficient or I wasn't called, etc. God is not some magical Wizard that turns lead into gold (though I know He can) whenever His people need financial or any other support. He relies on the work of His people to support His work in this world. If His people don't supply the needs of His workers He is not going to suddenly start dropping manna from heaven again. The Jew required a sign we have wisdom - His Word - He has given us enough wisdom to use our brains to realize that without the financial assistance of believers and churches, pastors and missionaries would never be, regardless on whether it's OT 10% giving or NT giving.

    Making an issue out of those that use the OT 10% tithe as an example in relation to NT giving with a thankful heart is just being petty. The reality is that the modern church has abused the whole finances issue because we live in a capitalist society where believers debt and desire to have more outweighs their ability and desire to give. This has left a shortfall where pastors that have had moments of weakness (or greed) have had to use scripture to exhort money. I think that you have a cold heart and have forgotten your first love. That you pick on finer points of doctrine to a point where you can't even see the truth anymore.

    I leave you with these verses and hope and pray that you find in your heart the love and charity that Paul speaks of, that you show some charity instead of the sarcasm and enmity often seen in your replies.


    1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
    1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
    1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
    1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
    1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
    1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
    Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
    Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    1Co 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

    1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
  11. Thanks
    2Tim215 got a reaction from Steve Schwenke in Will A Man Rob God?   
    Missionaries would not need to "drum" up support if believers gave their 10%!!! Even if it isn't NT bible doctrine to give 10%, if EVERY believer gave 10% there would be more than enough to go around. I stopped my studies because the fact is, regardless of what anyone says, GOD DOES NOT DEPOSIT A SALARY INTO YOUR ACCOUNT AT THE END OF EVERY MONTH!! He gave us a principle to work with in order to support His work.
    Every KJV only church I have ever seen that preaches sound doctrine in TRUTH is small with barely enough to support a pastor, never mind missionaries. I don't know what it's like in other countries, but that's the case here. I need to work to put food on the table, every man needs to work to feed his family, so why do most not regard a pastors calling as "WORK" and as such begrudge their earning a decent wage? Also, why must most bible students go through years of borderline poverty, before they "EARN" the right to a pathetic pittance from the church? Even apprentices earn more!!
  12. Thanks
    2Tim215 reacted to Brother Rick in THE "SEVEN DISPENSATIONS" VIEWED IN THE LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE   
    Haha... he said "booty."
  13. Thanks
    2Tim215 got a reaction from Steve Schwenke in THE "SEVEN DISPENSATIONS" VIEWED IN THE LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE   
    There is nothing wrong with using the 10% tithe example for NT giving as a guideline for how much to give. Me, knowing MY bills, would rather give 10% than what the NT teaches we should - EVERYTHING. My trust is not quite there yet. But the bottom line is that all pastors are not required to be responsible for what the brethren give or don't give. A pastors responsibility is to teach the Word in truth so that the believer may grow in Christ and when the believer grows in Christ, founded on the Word that believer will give all out of love. Yet, again, the pastor is not responsible for the believers walk with Christ, the believer is and he will stand before Christ one day and give an account for everything.

    Using the OT example of tithing is the same as using the OT Laws for how we should live and I agree totally with Steve's posts regarding this, 10% is not "required" in the NT, but it sure is a good starting point. There are many things in the OT that are not required of the believer in the NT, yet there is nothing wrong with teaching these things as examples to live by, lessons to be learned from, so why should the tithe be any different. No where did Steve say that the 10% tithe was compulsory that I could read, so why make a big deal about him teaching it as an OT example to live by? Just being argumentative maybe? Seeing a lot of that here these days.
  14. Thanks
    2Tim215 reacted to Steve Schwenke in THE "SEVEN DISPENSATIONS" VIEWED IN THE LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE   
    Not trusting in man...you are not following the point here.
    Are you an evangelist, pastor, or missionary? If you are not, then you have no idea of the issues a God-called preacher has to deal with when it comes to $$$. I am attempting to give all of you some insight, because it is not easy, especially when you minister in a small church.
    Would you work for an employer who tells you that they will pay you, but they could not guaruntee when or how much?
    But a God-called preacher MUST preach, so it is not like he can just walk away and say, "I quit."
    And this is NOT about "enriching the preacher." This is about giving the preacher the liberty to fulfill the office of the bishop thoroughly, without any hindrances or encumbrances. Working a full-time job outside of the church ties the preachers hands - he cannot minister to his family or church as he should. Everyone suffers.

    1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

    Now please do not misunderstand me. I believe that a Christian SHOULD tithe, based upon the example of Abraham. I believe that it is NOT under the Law, therefore your reply of "placing a burden upon Christians" is not true. It is under GRACE, not LAW, therefore it is not a burden, but a joy and delight! So I teach what the example is, exhort them to follow Abraham's example, and put the ball in their court.

    2Co 9:6 ¶ But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
    2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

    PS - Melchizedek was not a "pagan king." Paul says that he was the PRIEST OF THE MOST HIGH GOD, as does Genesis 14. Jesus Christ is said to be the next priest after the order of Melchizedek. He ranks a little bit higher than you allow. Furthermore, Abraham refused payment from the other pagan kings for his services, so his tithing was NOT from the "spoils of war" since he took none!
  15. Thanks
    2Tim215 reacted to Steve Schwenke in THE "SEVEN DISPENSATIONS" VIEWED IN THE LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE   
    There is no direct statement in the NT Epistles demanding a tithe from the Church Age believer. I agree to that. However there some other factors to consider.
    1. Melchizedek. Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek BEFORE the Law was given. Melchizedek was the Priest of the most High God. Who told Abraham to give the tithe? Jesus Christ follows in the Melchizedekian line of Priests (not the Aaronic line), and Jesus Christ is now our High Priest. Should we not then follow the example of Abraham, who was before the Law, in giving a tithe to the next in line of that priesthood?
    There was no law for Abraham to follow - just as there is no direct statement in the NT epistles for us to tithe. But this does not mean we should NOT tithe.

    2. I don't know about the rest of y'all, but as a pastor of a small church, I am hardly looking to "enrich" myself. I would like to have the same privileges as the rest of you, and have a pretty good idea of what my income will be. The problem with following this idea of "just give what the Lord leads" is that it becomes too easy for the worldly, backslidden, carnal Christians to give minimally and sporadically. So how can a small church have any way to set a budget for paying bills, etc.?
    And how can the Preacher have any idea of how to plan his own family budget if he has no idea what his income will be? Have any of you tried that lately?
    The OT Tithe under the Law was to provide for the Levites. The Levites in turn tithed off of the tithe they received for the support of the Priests of Aaron's family. When the nation of Israel did not tithe, the Temple worship was abandoned, since the Levites had to spend all of their time trying to suport their families. See Numbers 18:20-32, Nehemiah 10:28-39, and Neh. 13:10-13.
    The NT preacher is to live off his preaching - I Cor. 9:1-14.
    Paul purposefully chose not to accept money FROM THE CORINTHIANS for preaching, but he was not afraid to take from the Macedonians (II Cor. 8, PHil 4:14-18).
    Take this from someone who has lived it. IT is literally impossible to pastor a church, take care of a family, and then work a full-time job on top of that. What happens is the family gets neglected, the church is neglected (not enough time to pray, prepare lessons and sermons, not enough time to visit members or visitors), and eventually, the preacher gets so run down that he cannot effectively do ANYTHING.
    It is the church's job to provide for the preacher - not so that the preacher can "get rich," but so that the preacher is not encumbered with other things, and he is free to study, prepare, preach, visit, and have time for his family.

    I believe that if the OT required the Israelites to give a tithe by faith, trusting in God to stretch the other 90% to cover everything, then we as Christians who are NOT under the Law, but under grace, should be willing to give MUCH MORE than a tithe.
    The trouble comes in when people start saying that we are not required to tithe others who are not very spiritually minded use this as an excuse to not give anything, or a little bit here and there.

    And I would contend that we ARE required to tithe, not based on the OT Law, but by following the example of ABraham before the Law. Our tithe goes to the next priest in Melchizedek's line, our Lord Jesus Christ.
  16. Thanks
    2Tim215 got a reaction from Covenanter in THE "SEVEN DISPENSATIONS" VIEWED IN THE LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE   
    My church does, that's why the pastor is so poor Jokes aside, EVERYTHING we have, we are belongs to God - it's when we realize this we can give with a grateful heart.
  17. Thanks
    2Tim215 got a reaction from Steve Schwenke in THE "SEVEN DISPENSATIONS" VIEWED IN THE LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE   
    I agree John, but just because some preachers misuse a method of study doesn't make it wrong. Being from South Africa I have a outside perspective compared to a lot of you guys that have grown up in IFB churches or similar. My view of IFB churches and their doctrine was shattered when I joined this site. For many years I was angry with God, the church as I knew it, Christians and their confusing and misleading doctrine until I was led to a planted IFB church that taught using dispensations, and the Word was suddenly opened up to me now with a method of study that explained all the supposed confusion and "errors" that charismatic churches teach. I have charismatic friends that still believe that the Word of God has errors, is not inspired, etc and some are also "dispensationalists", though they use a warped method of dispensational doctrine to substantiate their belief system, not what the bible actually says. Man's error, pride and personal agenda does not make God, His Word or the way His Word is laid out wrong.

    I say that this site has shattered my view of IFB doctrine because there seems to be as much confusion, infighting and wako doctrines here as there are in charismatic and other church circles. We however can at least agree that the KJV is the True Word of God, yet even using the same bible there are differences in opinion, doctrine, understanding, etc that does not in any way edify the believer, the church or God. So how can the world see the truth if we can't even see it, never mind agree with one another - is this mans pride causing this division amongst those of us who still supposedly hold to the "fundamentals" of the faith or is it the devil sowing discord to undermine the truth - or both?

    Your above statement using the fallibility of man to undermine a sound doctrinal principal is a weak argument at best - man will always fail but Gods Word will never fail, come back empty or mislead.
    Just because some say 7 dispensations, others 9 etc, doesn't in any way disprove the fact that there are clear divisions in Gods Word where He deals with man differently. Where He has made new covenants, promises etc nationally or individually. Man will never fully understand the Word, nor fully understand God and His methods and will always fail yet this lack of understanding and failures should never be used a crutch to not believe the Truth, whether it be 2,7,9 or 106 dispensations, divisions, covenants, promises or whatever you want to call them - that FACT is they are still there and by recognizing them for what they are we can have a better understanding of Gods Word and His plan for us.
  18. Thanks
    2Tim215 reacted to John81 in THE "SEVEN DISPENSATIONS" VIEWED IN THE LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE   
    You also make my point. Many dispensationalists claim non-dispensationalists can't rightly interpret Scripture, yet they do, but because some non-dispensationalists do make wild claims, all non-dispensationalists are charged with their error.

    My point being, there are dispensationalists and non-dispensationalists who all come to the same basic conclusions as to what Scripture says on various matters. Why is there any need to attack one another simply on the basis of one group separating Scripture into dispensations to reach point "A" and the other group not doing that but also reaching point "A"? Why allow those on the fringe of either side to determine the whole?

    Myself, over the years I've encountered far more crazy ideas coming from dispensationalists than non-dispensationalists. I've encountered dispensationalists who have raised that to a standard involving salvation, declaring one can't truly saved if they don't believe in their versions of dispensationalism. Others have claimed the book of Hebrews is for Jews only and not at all for non-Jews. Some have claimed only the books of Paul are for us and if we base anything off another book of the Bible or follow something mentioned in another book of the Bible then we are either not following Christ or not even saved.

    The fact is, Baptists, including IFB, are not all in agreement upon a variety of matters. The first and most important thing to consider is whether or not we are of the same faith, meaning do we all hold to the truth of salvation. Then there are clear biblical doctrines we are to all hold to. Beyond that, there are areas we can disagree about, but that doesn't mean we are not brothers/sisters in Christ. Depending upon the disagreement, we may still be able to fellowship with one another, if not, we should be able to have a measure of separation without calling their salvation into question based upon something that has nothing to do with salvation.

    There are Calvinist, Arminian and some who claim to be neither, who are Baptists and IFB. Similarly there are pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib and no-trib Baptists. There are Baptists who will not enter a theater and those who do. There are card playing Baptists and non-card playing Baptists. There are Baptists who have organs, pianos, guitars, keyboards, and other instruments in their church, and some who accept some of those but not others, and some who use none. There are KJO, KJP, and MV Baptists. Etc.

    IFB and Baptist are all broad terms, especially today, and they encompass a variety of beliefs.
  19. Thanks
    2Tim215 got a reaction from Steve Schwenke in THE "SEVEN DISPENSATIONS" VIEWED IN THE LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE   
    The problem John is that many do not see the differences in the bible that some call dispensations. And again, many take those differences out of context and create some seriously wako doctrines - Dispensational doctrine should be a study aid only to help differentiate and understand what many modern pastors call "errors" in God's truth.
  20. Thanks
    2Tim215 reacted to Brother Rick in Video: What's the Big Deal about the King James Version of the Bible? By Sam Gipp   
    This is blatant heresy and I'm surprised an admin hasn't struck it down yet, and so I will. I started this thread, I can close it.

    SFIC is adding an additional requirement to salvation that is not found anywhere in the Scriptures. He has tried to be reasoned with, but he is too stubborn to listen. He has tried to make the case that because there are grievous errors in the modern versions when they speak of Christ that the gospel message in them point to a false Christ.

    He has stubbornly ignored the following facts:

    1. To say that modern Bibles point to a false, sinful Christ across the board is incorrect. There are plenty of clear-cut passages in modern versions that portray Christ as the sinless Son of God, and that salvation is to be received by grace through faith in the atonement of Christ. As one brother pointed out, an error about Jesus in one portion of a modern version does not negate the many other places where the version gets it right, just like writing "the Devil is a good guy" in the back of a KJB doesn't negate the potential power of the KJB when put into use. A modern version is in that sense no different than a gospel tract. The tract is not inspired, it is not the word of God, it may contain parts of the word of God, but most importantly it may be used to lead others to Christ.

    2. God has used imperfect instruments in the past and still does. God used a womanizer (Samson), a donkey (Balam's), an egomaniac (Saul), a hooker (Rahab), and a murderer (David). God used them and many more, and many times God in His grace has used imperfect people while in a backslidden condition. Why? Because He's a gracious and merciful God and He understands that we are but dust. God uses imperfect instruments all the time, including imperfect Bibles.

    3. Salvation is in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that gospel gives no limits as to how to communicate it. Many people were saved after watching The Passion of the Christ, regardless of the fact that Mel Gibson is a sleazy Catholic. There are preferred ways to give out the gospel, and we should always strive for the best, but we cannot limit God. To say that the modern versions point to a false Christ in some areas so no one can be saved out of them at all would also mean that Charismatics, Nazarenes, and Calvinists can't ever lead someone to the Lord either because they are off on a few things about God.

    4. To say that one must be saved out of a KJB is adding an additional requirement to salvation and is akin to mixing faith with works. If nothing else, it is Pharisaical and elitist, and it reeks of "us four and no more." Jesus rebuked this kind of thinking when He said, "for he that is not against us is on our part," in Mark 9:40. To say that people that are packing NIVs or NKJVs are against us because their Bibles are tainted would only further demonstrate the ridiculousness of SFIC's position. In the past this brother has come out and said that if a person dies in a backslidden state they were never saved to begin with, which is right on down the line with the Calvinist position of "Perseverance of the Saints" and the Roman Catholic doctrine of dying in a "state of grace." SFIC has a pattern of trying to, while I'm sure inadvertently, mix faith with works when it comes to salvation and adding additional requirements that are not found in the Bible. Anyone can take a verse here and there and twist it to try and prove an idea that the weight of Scripture does not support, and that is exactly what is going on here.

    5. The fruit and testimonies of multitudes of Christians across the globe prove this to be wrong. This is not the primary reason he is wrong, but it an important one. To say that one must be saved out of a King James Bible, and that anything else is a false conversion, would immediately negate the ministry and salvation of thousands of missionaries and Christians across the globe that are forced to use a corrupt version because there is no King James Bible in their language. SFIC's doctrine has suddenly destroyed their profession of faith, any fruit in their life, and any hope they have for Heaven. They are all bound for Hell because they do not have the perfect word of God in their language. Even here in America there are many Christians that love the same God the KJVOers love, and they pray to the same God, and they witness of the same Gospel and the same Jesus. I have firsthand knowledge and experience with people in this country and others that are very truly saved, but do not have or use a King James Bible. The fact that SFIC ignores this makes me wonder if he spends too much time in an ivory tower and not enough outsides actually dealing with real people, because this point is abundantly clear to anyone with any common sense and spiritual discernment.


    I started this thread to show everyone what I think is a great video that can be used to help others see the truth behind the King James Only movement. SFIC took it upon himself to hijack the thread and show the world the ugly side of the KJVO movement.

    Not anymore.
  21. Thanks
    2Tim215 reacted to Brother Rick in 95 Theses Against Dispensationalism   
    Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. I'm trying to defend what I believe biblical dispensationalism is, which is commonly taught today. I'm not trying to defend anything else. Allow me to illustrate what I mean by true, pratical, biblical dispensationalism:


    Is wrong to say that there was a time once when it was okay to marry your sister, but then God said it wasn't?

    Is it wrong to say there was once a time in which God was silent about drinking blood, so to do so would have been acceptable, but then after a considerable amount of time He said it was wrong?

    Is wrong to say there was a time in which God wanted His kingdom spread by armed combat and in some cases the killing of heathen women and children, but now His kingdom is to be won by the preaching of His word?

    Is it wrong to say there was a time when it was a sin to eat half of strip of bacon during breakfast over a campfire on Saturday morning, but now it's just dandy?

    Is it wrong to say that there was a time when believers were not supposed to witness to Gentiles, but now we are?

    Is it wrong to say there was a time when believers would heal people, perform miracles, and speak in tongues to convince people that the message they were preaching was true, but now they do not?

    Is it wrong to say that there will be a time in which the earth is filled with perfect and holy people, but now it is not?

    Is it wrong to say there was a time in which if you sinned God expected you to kill something, but now He does not?


    No one here would say that it would be wrong to say any of those things. But somehow if I draw a chart on a whiteboard illustrating these changes in the Bible I've done something wrong? That is all that biblical dispensationalism is, and to say that is wrong is just plain foolish. Biblical dispensationalism dovetails wth the natural reading of the Scriptures, and it is simply a tool to help better understand the Bible.

    Understanding these things are simply just a part of rightly dividing. Understanding the different covenants in the Bible are as well. Understanding the different testaments, judgments, baptisms, resurrections, etc, are all part of the idea of rightly dividing. As a tool, biblical dispensationalism is not the authority, the Scriptures are the authority. Biblical dispensationalism is no more wrong than having an outline for a message you're about to preach - both are rightly dividing the word for the benefit of the hearer.
  22. Thanks
    2Tim215 got a reaction from LindaR in 95 Theses Against Dispensationalism   
    2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Divide 2

    Definition: To cause to be separate; to keep apart by a partition, or by an imaginary line or limit; as, a wall divides two houses; a stream divides the towns.

    di·vide (d-vd)
    v. di·vid·ed, di·vid·ing, di·vides
    v.tr.
    1.
    a. To separate into parts, sections, groups, or branches: divided the students into four groups..
    b. To sector into units of measurement; graduate: The ruler was divided into metric units.
    c. To separate and group according to kind; classify: divided the plants by genus.
    2.
    a. To cause to separate into opposing factions; disunite: "They want not to divide either the Revolution or the Church but to be an integral part of both" (Conor Cruise O'Brien).
    b. To cause (members of a parliament) to vote by separating into groups, as pro and con.
    3. To separate from something else; cut off: A mountain chain divides France and Spain.
    4. To apportion among a number: Volunteers divided the different jobs among themselves.

    We are to take the Word literally and the very word divide as used by Paul does not imply but states that we are to divide the Word of God with emphasis on rightly doing so. There is no hidden meaning here, no ambiguity, just a word that follows a series of commands that are all actions and the word divide in itself being a command. Nowhere can I find this word to mean anything besides what I have quoted from dictionaries above so how can we not do as we are told and separate the Word of God into divisions. Divisions placed there by God Himself by the His very actions and dealing with man. God is not the author of confusion and His word is Truth so it goes without saying that without these divisions God's Word becomes confusing, contradicting and misleading. We must always ask ourselves if it is not our pride in our own understanding that causes us to fight an obvious truth even if it goes against everything we have been taught, everything we know, even if what we have known to be true has been wrong our entire lives.

    Was the world any less round because the learned men of the church believed it to be flat, was Jesus any less the Messiah just because the Jews didn't accept Him?
  23. Thanks
    2Tim215 got a reaction from LindaR in 95 Theses Against Dispensationalism   
    Sorry if this is off topic, but having read this one has to wonder on the doctrine of those pushing this agenda. Do they not undertsand that in order to be saved there had to be sacrifices and a temple? So how does the Jew now get saved under the OT covenant? There is no temple and there has been no sacrifices that I have been able to find with extensive research. Is there now a new "third" covenant just for the Jews after Christ. We (the believer) are now a living temple and the sacrifice was the Lamb of God - Jesus Christ. Can you imagine the bunny huggers reaction if the Jews were sacrificing lambs, goats, oxen, doves etc now?
    My heart goes out to the orthodox Jew who knows that without the temple sacrifice he has no chance - unless I am missing something here and there is another way besides Christ and the cross?
  24. Thanks
    2Tim215 got a reaction from Covenanter in 95 Theses Against Dispensationalism   
    *
  25. Thanks
    2Tim215 reacted to Brother Rick in 95 Theses Against Dispensationalism   
    That verse not only justifies dispensational divisions, it demands it. Just as there are Calvinists and hyper-Calvinists, so too there are Dispensationalists and hyper-Dispensationalists. Recognizing a dispensational division is not the same a running amok and building hard and fast walls all over the Bible. Many of the dispensations do run into each other, such as the Law and the Apostolic Age, and the Apostolic Age and the Church. Hyper-Dispensationalism tosses everything out except Paul, biblical rightly dividing does not.

    Considering you can't tell the difference between two battles that are separated by 1,000 years, you are hardly an authority on what rightly dividing means.
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