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Independent Fundamental Baptist
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Everything posted by 2Tim215

  1. Though I agree with SFIC in regards to the danger of the new versions and their depiction of Christ, I have to disagree concerning the salvation argument. Yes these versions portray Christ as a sinner, liar, etc; yet the unlearned sinner doesn't know this when he is presented with the gospel. I personally believe that the presentation of the gospel - the how and method of presentation - are of dire importance. Yet my question still is: does a lack of understanding of the Word, an incomplete presentation of the gospel and the version used take away, bind or stop the Holy Spirit from working in the life of the receiver at the moment of salvation when they believe on Jesus to save them. They are not believing in the Jesus of the KJV, CEV, NIV, NASV, etc, they are basing there believing on the cross of Christ, the Jesus who died and rose again. Most, if not all at least have that right - He was sinless, He died, He rose on the 3rd day, man's a sinner, etc. I again state that I would stake my life on the fact that most who read these versions would be shocked to see the evidence of these false teachings, yet sadly they do not look for it nor see it when it's right before there eyes. The funny thing is that most non KJV advocates still use the gospel presentation use by KJV believers for the last 400 yrs, though these denominations now use new versions, the majority of these churches started out with the KJV 100 yrs ago and still adhere to the same basic gospel mesaage, even if their other doctrines have gone astray.
  2. I am well aware that many translations are in error, have words or entire texts missing and misrepresent Jesus and many other doctrines. But let me throw something your way. I am an unsaved person angry with God. I slander God to my friends by saying: You know this Jesus everyone is going on about. Can you believe the rubbish they say, that this guy died for you. That if you believe this, this rubbish that you are bad and going to burn and need this guy to save you. Man, this guy was just like everyone else, turned grape juice into wine, beat all those poor blokes in the temple, a drunkard and a bully, what a lot of rubbish - this guy died to save us - what a lie! Yet the friend decides for some reason in his heart that this is the truth and believes on this "drunkard and bullying" Jesus his friend just told him about - does his friend's statement about Jesus being a drunkard and a bully make the power and grace of God any less powerful or true? Can any mans lie make God a liar? Again, how can any unsaved person ever know these two verse you just quoted? That comes through diligent study and time spent in fellowship with mature believers. They believe on the saving Grace of Christ who died and rose again and have never even heard of John 7:8-10 (CEV). I have been saved for 29 yrs and an IFB for over ten and have never heard of this. Salvation Grace is milk for babes, what you are talking about is meat for those mature in faith and sound doctrine and I firmly believe that it does not take away a persons salvation what version of the Word the gospel was preached unless someone was preaching the following: You must believe on the lying Jesus (John 7:8-10 (CEV)) who was sinner (Mat 5:22 (CEV)) who died on the cross a sinner and a liar so that you may saved. An imperfect sacrifice that was raised from the dead to reconcile man unto God. I think I can say with confidence that even idiots like BH, KC, CD and others like them can't even get the salvation message wrong because God made it so simple. Jesus = cross = death = sacrifice = resurrection = salvation = grace Oh, quick edit - I also sadly believe that the idiots that wrote the CEV are more than likely not even aware of these two points you posted and I would stake my life that most of the babes that read it and preach from it don't even have the sense nor the doctrinal understanding to pick it up - it's not our place to call them unsaved - it's our responsibility to gently guide them to the truth - the KJB - and boy can that be hard!
  3. I think what you need to do is show examples of where a particular bible has in any way stated that Jesus was a sinner, a liar, committed sin, etc. I want to know which bible with quotes etc. I agree that one can not place ones hope in a sinning, lying Christ - He was the perfect sacrifice because He had no sin. You can not expect us to hold or agree to your above statements without giving us the required evidence to back it up.
  4. I think I don't stand alone when I say that I and many here see where it is you are coming from, also, what it is that you are trying to say. As much as it grates me to say this, but it is the truth - YOU ARE RIGHT -many (if not all) modern versions take away or add to the truth. We see many turning away from the virgin birth today, turning from grace to works, etc BUT the fact remains that God, Jesus Christ, His Spirit and His Word is greater, will always be greater and has always been greater than man and his attempts to pervert the truth, by this I mean that God's salvation is so simple, so unique, so obvious and so UNIVERSAL that all who call on the name of Jesus can and will be saved, regardless of doctrine or creed or personal understanding of God, His Word or the finished work of Christ. Many in the early church were saved without hearing the complete doctrine, only knowing what He had done - the NT doctrine only came later in the writings of the apostles, mainly Paul. All we do is sow dissent and confusion we we ridicule or demean an individuals salvation and make the saving grace of Christ to no effect. It does not edify the church nor the believer to state that what they have believed to be saving grace is a lie because they had the wrong bible or wrong church or wrong teaching. If a person is truly seeking the truth in Christ we have assurance in His Word that it will be revealed - remember that Jesus Christ is greater than what any person says or writes - what we believe can in no way effect, change or take away from what He has done because HE did it, not us.
  5. There is a following of IB "believers" that I have crossed paths with on a few occasions. They believe that if a person was saved in a charismatic, pentecostal or any other denominational church besides their own then they were never saved in the first place. They also teach that if the gospel was NOT preached from the KJV 1611 AV, then it was a false gospel and a false Christ and thus a false conversion and the person was never saved. They use a warped doctrine twisted to suit there own agenda to convince believers that without the work of repentance their salvation is a lie - that it is repentance PLUS faith that saves and not faith alone that saves that then leads to repentance. They are usually as hard and unforgiving as their doctrine and as un- Christlike as a person can get in character when confronted concerning this false doctrine. Salvation is simple! Made that way to confound the wise regardless of who preaches it, what bible is used or what church you were in when you were saved - if you preach Christ on the cross - His death and resurrection - man's separation from God through sin - God's reconciliation to man through the FINISHED work of Christ - Christ who took man's sin upon Himself to save those who BELIEVE once and for all ETERNALLY - Grace not works, then you preach the truth and they that hear it have heard the truth.
  6. All right, lets get off this word "dispensation" for a bit and look at the Word. We can agree that there are two testaments - the old and the new. We can agree that in these two testaments God had different methods for salvation, one works (and faith) based and one by grace alone (faith) - one based on man, the other on God and eternal - so we have to agree that there are two exceedingly different divisions in the bible placed there by God. Lets look at two more divisions, that between the early NT church and now. Signs and wonders for the Jews and wisdom (The Word) for the Greeks (us). So there are clearly divisions in how, when and the why of God dealing with man. If we are not taught to rightly "divide" these "divisions" we have many confused Christians and whether we call them dispensations, covenants, divisions or ages makes no difference to the fact that they are there and are there for a specific purpose - that being the revealing of God's methods, character and Glory to man. Don't you think that we through pride get caught up in our own idea of who is right or wrong, that the devil can lead us into an endless circle of argument (disagreement not war) that leads us away from the truth - I was always taught that a preacher with an agenda to prove ONE point of the Word and not the whole is one to steer clear of. Does it make any difference to ones salvation what we call it? Does it make the Cross any less powerful or take any glory from God what term we use? That there are clear delineations (another term for you to disagree on ) in the Word of God is obvious to any serious bible student regardless of the terminology we use to label them - how we "rightly divide" them is though is the real issue here and that we all need wisdom from God and His Spirit to do so is a thing we should all pray for daily - for ourselves and everyone else - more praying and less disagreeing I think is the answer.
  7. 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Divide 2 Definition: To cause to be separate; to keep apart by a partition, or by an imaginary line or limit; as, a wall divides two houses; a stream divides the towns. di·vide (d-vd) v. di·vid·ed, di·vid·ing, di·vides v.tr. 1. a. To separate into parts, sections, groups, or branches: divided the students into four groups.. b. To sector into units of measurement; graduate: The ruler was divided into metric units. c. To separate and group according to kind; classify: divided the plants by genus. 2. a. To cause to separate into opposing factions; disunite: "They want not to divide either the Revolution or the Church but to be an integral part of both" (Conor Cruise O'Brien). b. To cause (members of a parliament) to vote by separating into groups, as pro and con. 3. To separate from something else; cut off: A mountain chain divides France and Spain. 4. To apportion among a number: Volunteers divided the different jobs among themselves. We are to take the Word literally and the very word divide as used by Paul does not imply but states that we are to divide the Word of God with emphasis on rightly doing so. There is no hidden meaning here, no ambiguity, just a word that follows a series of commands that are all actions and the word divide in itself being a command. Nowhere can I find this word to mean anything besides what I have quoted from dictionaries above so how can we not do as we are told and separate the Word of God into divisions. Divisions placed there by God Himself by the His very actions and dealing with man. God is not the author of confusion and His word is Truth so it goes without saying that without these divisions God's Word becomes confusing, contradicting and misleading. We must always ask ourselves if it is not our pride in our own understanding that causes us to fight an obvious truth even if it goes against everything we have been taught, everything we know, even if what we have known to be true has been wrong our entire lives. Was the world any less round because the learned men of the church believed it to be flat, was Jesus any less the Messiah just because the Jews didn't accept Him?
  8. Sorry if this is off topic, but having read this one has to wonder on the doctrine of those pushing this agenda. Do they not undertsand that in order to be saved there had to be sacrifices and a temple? So how does the Jew now get saved under the OT covenant? There is no temple and there has been no sacrifices that I have been able to find with extensive research. Is there now a new "third" covenant just for the Jews after Christ. We (the believer) are now a living temple and the sacrifice was the Lamb of God - Jesus Christ. Can you imagine the bunny huggers reaction if the Jews were sacrificing lambs, goats, oxen, doves etc now? My heart goes out to the orthodox Jew who knows that without the temple sacrifice he has no chance - unless I am missing something here and there is another way besides Christ and the cross?
  9. Sorry, but I am confused!! My understanding is that we are saved by grace. Before the death and resurrection of Christ it was through the Law (IE: works based on obedience and the sacrifices for remission of sins). Now there is no Jew or Greek so all must now be saved by grace through Christ - the Jew and the gentile. Who teaches that Jews have a different covenant now in this "age" of grace - have never heard this before? The Jews are to be saved through grace now and only those that are around after the rapture (another word not seen in the bible - like dispensations - yet believed to be a promised fact) are to be saved through works and standing fast to the end. Also, just to add some spice. How were those from Adam to Moses saved if the Law only came through Moses on the mount? Wrong or right?
  10. Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence,
  11. Cool Put that way, then yes, obedience would be "evidence of salvation. But unlike some, I do not believe that saved believers who due to circumstances and wrong choices do not live lives of evident works are not saved because some Christians do not see their works. Many "Christians" who have wonderful work filled lives that everyone sees all the time have secret sins that they hide. Rather a fallible believer than a devious one. The problem with not seeing that God deals differently with man at different times (regardless of what term we use to label it) is that false doctrines like "kingdom now" , "Calvinism" , "Lordship salvation" and "repentance based salvation" just to mention a few arise.
  12. Absolute lie! We are saved by grace alone and our works are not evidence of salvation but of our love and obedience to our Lord and Savior.
  13. Question: Why do we have the "Old" Testament and the "New" Testament? The very words describe a difference in God's dealings with man - an "Old" covenant/age/dispensation and a "New" covenant/age/dispensation. Do we now say the KJV is wrong because it differentiates between the old and the new? The very fact that there is a difference between the two shows that God has dealt differently with man on two separate occasions. Are these the only times that God has done this? No, if we "rightly divide" then we see that this is not so. Having being confused by the "obvious" errors in the bible for years, it was only after being taught the doctrine of "dispensation" or "ages" that the "errors" become truths and the Word of God began to fit together as a whole. IMHO ANYTHING and ANY DOCTRINE that takes away from God's grace, God's Word, causes confusion, sows dissent, does not edify the church, does not bring glory to God and caters to the world and the politics thereof is a lie and should be steered clear from! Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ; Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil. Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
  14. I would like to thank all for their prayers. Over a month now and nothing, so my lawyer advises that I should not worry as it seems that the police have dropped it as I should have heard something by now. Obviously they had no evidence and the charges were false and seeing that I was prepared to fight they backed off. Me, I believe it's as "simple" as God answering prayers!!
  15. I think you missed my point:
  16. Excellent answer - God always knows the motive behind the motive. I try to always ask myself when buying things is do I really need it more than the poorest person in my church needs help? Can I justify the expense or the need when I KNOW someone needs food, clothes or financial assistance. I know of many Christians that have four cars, but need only one. Have five bedroom houses and only use one bedroom. Go on vacations often, etc, etc, but there are members in their congregation that eat twice a week or are sick and can't afford the hospital, etc. When we realise that everything we have belongs to God then I think most of us would manage our finances, our lives etc better.
  17. possible consideration - He was perfectly sinless yet still in the flesh as a man, after the three days He was resurrected in a new "perfect body. We are born in sin and Jesus had to be born as man to be a acceptable sacrifice for that sin, so HE was perfect, but the body He was born in was not, only after His resurrection was He "completely" perfect - hope I am making sense here. An example of the rapture where we are made perfect with new bodies and complete in Christ.
  18. I agree, war and violence can make the best people (believers included) do the worst things, this doesn't make it right, but unless you have been under fire, seen and done what they have done to stay alive, keep their friends alive and protect your right to sit in safety on a couch and watch CNN, then you have no right to stand in judgment. I find it disturbing how so many in America and the world stand in judgment and condemn the soldiers who live and die for the so called rights of others who have never lifted a finger to defend their own rights, never mind the rights and lives of others. War is ugly and never black and white.
  19. This is the state of my country - Bulls are ritually sacrificed as a national ancestral worship with witchdoctors blessing the ANC and the country while "inter faith" "christian" leaders stand in support. http://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/2012/01/07/mangaung-anc-centenary-concert-begins http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/ANC-bash-Zuma-performs-symbolic-sacrifice-20120107
  20. I must agree - not much decent on TV these days, stick to the travel channel or documentaries. At least I don't have to pay for the rubbish, part of my lease aggreament.
  21. Just did my first 15 KM ride in 20yrs today through the forests - loved it.
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