2Tim215

The footwashing was not an act to show that the Apostles were under grace. That was a physical washing of the feet.

If foot washing assured one that they fell under the grace of God, then there's not a man, woman or child on this planet who doesn't fit that category.

I didn't say footwashing represented that they were under grace HIS statement did so I will highlight it again:

Joh 13:9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Joh 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

As my wife is now 4 months with our first I need to start prepping for homeschooling. As I work from home and am more suited to the task we have decided that I will be responsible for this and seeing that I wasn't the best kid at school all advice would be appreciated.

Valid point. I agree. Peter wasn't saved under grace after the cross. But he was definitely under the "grace" of Christ. He "renounced" Christ three times and when the cock crowed he wept bitterly - Repentance? Remorse? What makes his sin any different to that of Judas - they both betrayed Christ in there own way. Both were warned that they would. Both "repented". Why is Peter's repentance recognized and Judases not? So were all the disciples except one under the grace of the Living Christ until there conversion at Pentecost? I believe so and I say this because of this:

Joh 13:9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
Joh 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Joh 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.


This proves that they were "clean" in the eyes of Christ - all except Judas as we know. Like I keep on saying it is possible for a "christian" to not be saved (Judas) but it is also possible for a BELIEVER to live in sin, reject and renounce Christ and still be saved. It's upon Him and not us that we are saved and stay saved.

God's need to be worshiped? This is a question I have been pondering for some time now and would appreciate some outside input (with scripture). Why must we worship God? Does He "need" it? Whose benefit is it for, His or ours? We are commanded to worship Him, but why? We look at a man or woman who needs the devotion of those around him and call them vain, egotistical, etc yet right through scripture we see God demanding that we worship Him. Adam was created as a companion to God if my understanding is correct. This would make him an "almost" equal? Was Adam created to worship God? I don't think so as I understand that the Angels were created to serve and worship Him and we are above them in Christ. As Adam was before his sin. So why the "need" for our worship?

This may be a bit convoluted and I am not calling God vain here so feel free to correct me where needed.

1Pe 1:23

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I understand the sower and the seed parable. A parable has always has a limited application. The church, with the seed planted within, saved for all eternity, began on Pentecost.

Trell is 100% right - the incorruptible seed spoken of in 1 Pet 1 is The Word preached to the CHURCH - that being Jesus Christ crucified and risen from the dead - salvation through grace. This is not the same seed spoken of in the parable - that was the LAW - Jesus was speaking to JEWS not the church as He was in MATHEW 7 that so many of you like to quote when stating that people can profess salvation and not be saved. Mat 7 has NOTHING to do with the church and those saved by grace! It's easy to take bible out of context to justify a personal opinion.

Yes there are many "Christians" that are not saved, but there are just as many believers who are saved that live in continual sin through personal disobedience that WILL see eternity in heaven - it's NOT just a few hardcore IFB's that will be in heaven!! I am not pointing fingers here, but don't you think that our message would be better believed if we behaved as He did with charity as he did with the tax collectors and the whores and the "dogs" at the well - SINNERS all. DO you think that statements like "look at that "believer" sinning - was probably never saved to start with!" does any good to the message of servitude, humility, sacrifice, grace, love and charity that Jesus and His disciples AND Paul preached? Does it portray us as one of His own?

It is impossible for us to renounce salvation as it it wasn't ours in the first place but we can, will and often do renounce God and isn't that the same thing? He is after all the AUTHOR of our salvation. Lets not forget Peter (Mat 26:69-75) or was he not saved in the first place either? I am reasonably sure that there was a IFB or two there that snickered and whispered "probably not saved in the first place" while they sat fat and content in the surety of their "sound doctrine" and ignored the agony of their own brothers and sisters struggle with daily sin because they were too "clean" to get dirty for Christ!!

Now, see, that wasn't so hard, was it? Instead of firing at people that their statements are arrogant, add to the conversation. Thank you.

Thought I was

2Tim, I didn't need you to re-post anything...as I said, I re-read the thread. And there is nothing wrong with the statements that you highlighted. They didn't come from judgmental thoughts by the posters, nor assumptions based on glimpses of someone's life. What they stated was factual. There are people who claim the name of Christ but who are not truly saved.

As to the posts that you did quote: If you have a question about what they might have meant, ask them individually (specifically John with your question - or, rather, demand - about scripture [fwiw, it's always a good idea to require scriptural proof, imo - just, mayhap a bit nicer...]) Try reading the entire post...

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that someone who is truly saved will FULLY reject Christ. They might be hurt, angry, or bitter, but there will always be something (the Holy Spirit) inside them nudging them, even if it's minutely. I know a number of people like this. And I know of people who claimed the name of Christ, only to realize later that they were not saved. It does happen - that isn't book cover judging, it's fact.

And please note that I didn't say you condemned anyone...I said calm down. And I stand by that. Thank you.

There is no reason for me to "calm down" when I am already calm. This is not the first time that I have seen this trend here nor I am sure the last. I stand by what I said and will every time I see this and I disagree with your statement - we will, can and are able to FULLY reject Christ even though saved and sealed with His Blood - the difference is HE will never reject us. Maybe we should stop looking to see if everyone else's profession of faith is REAL and look to our own.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

So in line with the thread - Yes we can renounce our salvation, but this in no way diminishes, takes away or nullifies our salvation as it from God and not from us! It's like an unbeliever trying to sell his soul to the devil - ridiculous!!!! The devil already owns their souls (Mat 12:30).
We are bought and paid for with a price -

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

These very verses imply that they did not glorify God and had to be chastised into doing so - all sin is the same in God's eyes so why would "renouncing" be any different? We are bought for and are not our own and even if we did renounce God we can not give up what is not ours to give. So again, yes we can in the emptiness and futility of our own strength but our "renunciation" means nothing against the Grace of Christ.

How about calming down, 2Tim? Re-read the posts carefully and you'll see that there really isn't that much talk about someone who is in sin not really being saved. The plain fact of the matter is that there are people who are NOT saved, even though they profess to be, for whatever reason they might have. I re-read this thread, after you posted, just to see what was being said. And I have to say that none of the posters deserve being called arrogant - even those that state that there is a possibility of someone who rejects Christ was not truly saved. Because that is a very real possibility.

Remember that the Bible says that the devils believe and TREMBLE. Too often, we make salvation a light thing when presenting it (it is simple, but not light!), and a prayer is prayed, but the heart is not involved. And that person goes on to try and live what is perceived as the Christian life without the Holy Spirit power. All too often, when that happens, discouragement sets in and the person turns away - were they ever truly saved? No. They had the trappings, but not the power. That is a truth that cannot be denied by anyone that has been a Christian for very long.

That is not to say that a person who is truly saved can lose their salvation. Scripture is clear that they cannot. They can backslide, though, and will be miserable when they do...and it will seem to others that mayhap they never were saved. They may even think so, and "get saved" again later.

No-one condemned anyone in this thread...please don't accuse where there isn't accusatory reasons. Thanks.

I am not condemning anyone. I did not make any statements at specific persons but rather at the general underling doctrine believed by some. And I said "arrogant statements" - This does not imply arrogance onto the testator but onto the STATEMENT. - so if you want quotes here they are.

I know someone who was even baptized, but just because they say they are and go through the acts of being a Christian that does not mean they are actually saved. That is why Jesus said many will come to me, saying haven't I done this and this and He will respond, "Depart, I know you not!" He knows who are His from the second they begin to pray. - Jesus was not speaking to NT believers here

For someone to go from being saved to an atheist does not say much for their salvation to begin with, but only God knows if he was sincere in accepting him before he walked away from Him. If he was sincere when he got saved he will be in heaven.

Deep down they are angry, frustrated, and bitter, they blame God for their lives being a mess or whatever it is, but I tell you what when it all comes down to it, they will be thanking God for not casting them out like they cast Him out.

I do not believe one who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit will renounce his or her faith or belief in Jesus Christ. Scripture teaches us that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, so I don't see how a believer can fall into apostasy to the point of denying Christ.

If one made a profession at some stage in life and years later walked away from the Christian faith and now lives the life of an atheist, I do not believe that profession resulted in possession. Their hearts were not truly changed though they had made a profession.

Once one is biblically saved the Holy Ghost seals them and indwells them and they are sons/daughters of God forever after.

Scripture has examples of those who appeared to be saved, acted saved and may have even thought they were saved, but their turning away was due to the fact they were never saved to begin with. None lost their salvation because they had never been saved to begin with.

Show me those scriptures that state that they made a "profession" of faith.

If you can lose your salvation...that means you are keeping it by works. (Because if your works are "bad", i.e. rejecting Christ, then your WORKS kept or lost your salvation).

So to believe you can renounce salvation is to believe in works salvation. So the question is, do you believe in grace or works salvation? God says plainly in Ephesians, its NOT of works...if it was works, we could boast. God saved us by grace through faith, NOT of ourselves. If we can choose to keep or reject our salvation, then it is not God, but us doing it.

It is likely that anyone who can fully reject Christ was never saved to begin with. Those saved have the Holy Spirit inside to bear witness with their spirit and those who would then be an atheist surely do not have the Holy Spirit inside. First John has a lot to say about those who would claim to be saved but then not have the spirit of Christ for real.

Many a saved believer has lost a loved one, been hurt, got cancer, etc etc and in anger and hurt "FULLY" rejected Christ in their hearts - this does not mean we have the right to judge them unsaved because we see the fruits from only a glimpse of there lives and not the whole story.

I feel very strongly about this trend amongst many IFB's to judge a person unsaved like they would a book by it's cover without even taking the time to read the story. We can judge sin in a believers life, there fruit or lack thereof, there doctrine but where in the Word does it say we can blithely take God's place as Savior and condemn people unsaved by our words?

I find it amazing how many of you are quick to state that a believer living in sin was never saved in the first place. The bible is very clear on salvation - believe on the finished work of Christ at the cross and you will be saved through His faith not yours. What you do with your life after that is your responsibility, NOT GOD'S. This "living in sin" however does not cause one to lose their salvation. Like the Pharisees you make your interpretation more important than God's simple truth. It's too simple, to easy for you to accept that God grace is greater than your sin. You will easily believe that His grace is enough for your pre-salvation sin, but not for any continual sin after salvation - this stinks of works not grace - of Calvinism.
You make God small and petty and say things like "he must not have made a proper profession"; "he didn't believe enough"; "he was never TRULY saved" and " he was not filled with the spirit". You believe! Your salvation is not dependent on YOU but on GOD, not your sins past, present, continual or future, BUT ON GOD"S GRACE!!!!!!!~!!!!!!!! So stop using your own OPINION to explain a man/woman's struggle with sin - pray for them instead of condemning them with your arrogant statements as if you have the power of God to know a man's heart.
If a person believes they are saved - they are not chosen to believe beforehand and can not take salvation doctrine from the gospels and always remember Acts

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Act 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

No, I'm just a lowly Christian, don't have hardly any worldly attributes. I just don't feel at home in this world any longer.

You know they are getting "old" when they make statements like this :stirthepot:

As an artist blacksmith and blade smith I can appreciate all things done by hand, especially the "old forgotten" crafts and I also have a thing for cast iron cookware - my wife threw my whole collection out when we first got married and being the young naive newly wed christian divorce was not an option - we laugh about now - but I was not amused at the time.

^{Here's an}ot^{her
1 Tim}ot^{hy 2:8}I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
⁹In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
¹⁰But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
¹¹Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
¹²But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Lets take a look at the scripture you provided.

• Vrs 8 - men praying, not woman
• Vrses 9-10 - woman "profess godliness" through good works and modesty - is this not a testimony? Is a woman's testimony not maybe a "silent" one through actions? Food for thought?
• Vrs 11-12 - Her silence is in conjunction with teaching and the context of the book is church leadership, doctrine and preaching - so her silence must be in context with those aspects only.
  

Paul then goes on to explain why:

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

• Vrs 13 - Adam first, not Eve.
• Vrs 14 - Eve deceived, not Adam and this is important as Adam was NOT deceived - he knew the consequences and took the responsibility of her sin on himself - this is the same responsibility of the husband and father - he teaches and guides his wife and family in all things spiritual - he is the head of the home for this very reason.
  

Vrs 15 though is one I am still working on as I do not believe a woman is saved only through child bearing only if they "continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety" Thoughts on this would be appreciated.

So the answer would seem to be that any vocalization of a woman in a meeting is not acceptable besides that of praise as that is not once mentioned.

I seem to feel its presence, stronger at times. And what could be wrong with that?

Sorry Jerry, HIS presence not ITS. :boxing:

Funny, I get a different message concerning opinions.

<snip>

Everyone has opinions on this board. And many post them over and over.

My opinions were not accepted because they were against popular belief.

But the fact is, I had Scripture that clearly backed my opinions.

Oh stop being sore! If everyone agreed with you who would you have to argue with? No one will EVER agree 60% on doctrine, let alone 100% - we tell you where we stand and you ALWAYS tell us where you stand - you don't see us complaining like a child that Johnny got the cake and Suzie didn't. That shows the attitude of a sore loser, a bully and a person that is not 100% behind there own convictions. If you were you would rest easy in the truth. Besides - you give us stuff to think about - it's our own responsibility to check the Word and see whose right - not yours.

I think it's also and maybe only, a practical reason. Men are SUPPOSED to be logical while woman are more emotional. Though biblical spirituality has emotion it is good to note that the majority of God's Word is practical and sound doctrine is always practical. Practicality and logic go hand in hand and anyone making sound spiritual (biblical) decisions in any leadership role needs logic and practicality. This includes teaching God's Word. Leadership in any form can never be emotional. Emotional decisions are inevitably bad decisions (not always, but mostly). If one looks at the modern charismatic or denominational churches where woman lead one will always see a higher emotional content rather than a practical and logical biblical one. In this day and age where woman are regarded as equal in the home, the church and the work place we see "harder" woman taking on the roles of men.
My wife is a nurse and as an artist I work from home - more often than not she brings in far more than I do and it is often commented upon by certain family members that I am the "wife" as these days "stay at home dads" are accepted as the norm and with job cuts, etc it is sadly often the case that men have to stay at home. Yet I am the leader of our household. I manage the finances, etc but we share all decision making though I have final say and I am blessed with a wife that very seldom says "I told you so!"
I say all this because a lot of what Paul said concerning woman has been abused by men for selfish reasons and when we put aside our pride, self and personal feelings we will see that men and woman are equal in God's eyes and are just DIFFERENT with different roles to play, neither one less or inferior to the other. Men are just as prone to make emotional decisions as woman are - usually in anger and always in pride, men are just not supposed to be RULED by emotions as woman can be - we are the father, they the mother. We the law giver, they the care giver (and by law I mean spiritual law, not chauvinistic law) and the list goes on.
It's when we reverse these roles that problems arise.

Acts 20... In verse 34 Paul told the elders that he worked with his hands. In verse 35, he said so labouring ye ought to support the weak. Paul was saying I worked with my hands and you should be working with your hands too.

Act 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Act 20:33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
Act 20:34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
Act 20:35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

No he was not saying that. Right through the chapter he speaks of all he has done and the sacrifices he has made for the gospel and the church. He then tells them that he has COVETED no mans silver, gold etc. He then tells them that THEY THEMSELVES are aware that he has supported himself AND THOSE WITH HIM, with his own hands. What, if he was COMMANDING all who serve the Lord through preaching why did he support those with him and they did no work? This is not a command - this is Paul shaming them through his own example, that as he was able to support those with him so should they through their labors support the weak. Not all were gifted with the ability or with the skill of a trade to support themselves. Paul then leaves them with a reminder of the Words of Jesus, which is always a command - "it's more blessed to give than receive" - this is the POINT of the whole passage here - that they should support those that minister unto them if they are unable to support themselves.

You are right concerning faith and that it is God who supplies all our needs - but you make God and His Word a liar by stating that God does not want the church supporting His servants. Once again you have taken out of context and twisted to suit your own agenda and doctrine. I pray for the ignorant that have been mislead by you!!

I did read the rest of that verse. And that verse is telling the elders that it is more blessed for them to give than to receive. Paul was stressing the importance of them giving, not receiving. That is why he told them they ought to work with the hands... so they could give to those in need.

Receiving an occasional love gift was not prohibited. Receiving a salary for preaching the Word was.

Paul did not say "you can work with your hands if you want." No, he said "you ought to work with your hands."

I can not find that phrase any where in the KJB so please tell me which version you are using.

I did however find these verses:

1Co 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

1Th 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

And none of these are commands to pastors specifically so explain where you get that statement that you hyphenated as if it is a verse?

The Apostle Paul told them to work with their hands so your argument is with him and the Word of God, not with me.

Wasn't arguing, just making facetious remarks. Learn't long ago that there is no point arguing with a zealot.

We are now on 107 posts and still going nowhere. Lets get all churches to stop paying the Pastors, the missionaries, etc and make them all go out and get jobs. At least it will kill the prosperity preachers, boost the economy - oh wait - the economy is down the creek without a paddle, so these pastors won't even get work and if they do they'll be taking our jobs!

Lets get them to work 5/6 days a week, do visitations after work, prepare sermons when they finish visitations and mid week meetings and then preach on Sunday and during all this WORK let them ignore their families and then start over on Monday - a few months of this and most pastors will be chewing their wrists, giving up preaching all together or end up divorced, I say most except for the heroes of the faith like SFIC and Paul, because the rest of us lying thieving BEGGARS who don't deserve to be called servants of Christ.

But I still worked, overtime if necessary, to earn my living so as not to burden any of the brethren. After my ordination, I continued working as well as pastoring my flock so as not to be chargeable to them, nor to burden them.

Just curious here, Why did you have an ordination and in which congregation was this?

All we have we get from God. God gave my father the ability to work for his living... just as He did Paul and the Apostles.

Just can't stand the fact that some people believe that God provides for those He sends, can you?

I hope this question is not directed at me? Because if it is you are ONCE AGAIN making assumptions based on no evidence concerning my faith and character and proves your bigoted arrogance concerning all who disagree with your doctrinal views. All I did was reiterate Kitagirls question and no where did I state that God does not provide. I would appreciate it if you could refrain from making wild assumptions and instead give us substantiated proof regarding your view point. If your father worked then how and where and how much time was spent working and how much time ministering to the needs of his "mission" field? You said in Africa, then where in Africa? If you have nothing to hide then these questions should easily be answered and there should be nothing wrong with sharing a testimony that can strengthen the faith of others and substantiate your claims concerning God's provision, so why the constant evasion when asked direct questions?

What difference does it make how? The fact is, they did not have to ask anyone for it.

It makes all the difference. It substantiates your claims and if they "did not have to beg" then could only have come from God or the world. If from God then why not give Him the Glory He deserves. This is like saying "I am Saved" but when asked how and by whom stating "What difference does it make how? The fact is, I am and you are not". I agree with Kitagirl - PLEASE SHARE!

I stand on what I wrote earlier. I also emphatically state that any believer that is "hostile" in their attitude regarding the Word of God is a believer to steer clear of. I was taught in a staunch IFB bible college that teaches KJV only that any person with an agenda that does not include the ENTIRE Word of God is a cultist and many IFB believers take a doctrine and turn it into a cult where the doctrine becomes more important than everything else in the bible. The bible is the WHOLE truth and there are many doctrines in the bible that make up the whole, not just one or two that appeal to a individuals personal tastes.

Regarding your MIL and her Pastor - you alone will stand before Christ one day and they will not be there holding your hand and you can not point a finger in accusation So stand fast to what you believe until God shows you otherwise, but be ready to humble yourself when He does and ignore the "I told you so's" that always come out of the mouths of proud baptists and until then remember Rom 12: 19-21

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Almost the same in either version

¹⁹ Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. ²⁰ On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”
²¹ Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

I see in your Bio you state:

• 
  came here looking for answers, not to be slammed down for daring to use a Bible other than King James.
  

Remember that our growth is directly effected by the offense we take and hold onto. I also have a very strong aversion to many of the attitudes presented on this forum concerning some IFB doctrinal points, but as John stated:

It's not so much as what name is on the church, it's whether that church preaches the Gospel and teaches the congregation to live according to the Word; and that it's the church God leads us to attend.

If the Lord has not yet convicted you in your heart concerning the Bible you use then keep on using it!!! No one can force a doctrinal point on you and you can not judge a group by the attitudes and actions of a few individuals. I myself used a NKJV (they hate this one just as much) for years in a staunch IFB church and refused to budge until through study and heart felt conviction I was convinced otherwise. Many IFB's use there "separatism" and "doctrinal megalomania" as a crutch to support some very way off doctrines based on personal preference. Please do not use these to judge the rest of us and allow your heart to soften and your skin to thicken - you need very thick skin here sometimes as many like to and to and many of us just take it with a and allow God to do His thing. So I would hang around and learn a thing or two - always testing it with the Word and just ignore the die hards that could learn a thing or two about charity and compassion. And remember this too, the written word can seem a lot harder than a friendly face and spoken voice - some come across hard in their writing but aren't all that bad in person.

God Bless and trust in the Lord and He will guide you.

Praying