2Tim215

They have some good material; however, Michael Pearl "seems" to teach that sinless perfection is possible for Christians.

I have listened to that a few times. He does teach that this is possible, yet admits it's unattainable while still in this body.One has to listen to it a few times to see this - it's about sinning less the more you submit to God's Word and His Spirit.

Just to address the "God of mercy that searches the heart of every man and judges according to accountability"...

In Hosea 13, we see this decree by God:
Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Now, in the Law, God declared:
Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

So, if every man is accountable for his own sins, how come the infants were put to death? Surely they must have sinned, for God had already decreed that the children would not be put to death for their father's sins.

I was waiting for someone to bring up this point. You could also use the flood as an example. Many "innocents" died there too. By innocents I refer to children. You will note that I stated that God's character throughout the ENTIRE bible reflects His mercy and does so far more than it reflects His wrath.Yes we do see a wrathful, jealous and vengeful God when it comes to sin. Note that God does not command that the children be put to death in Hosea, He just states that they will be - this is the nature of war. Some believe in the "age of accountability" for children, but like I said in my earlier post, it's a difficult one and the Word does not give an exact reference to children and how accountable they are. As much as I fear and respect God's wrath, I believe in His long suffering and mercy.

But back to topic - The CONDITION for salvation is the recipients BELIEVING in the finished work of Christ. God put grace in place so that none could boast on their own strength and He put the condition in place so that none would have an excuse. We must steer clear of those that would use a few verses to try and subjugate the entire Word of God when the entire Word of God attests to mans ability to make his own choices and bear the consequences thereof.

Any one here heard of the Pearls? Mike and Debbie Pearl at No greater Joy?

Romans 1 indisputably establishes the Biblical ("calvinistic") doctrine of total depravity, & that they are without excuse for their sin. Does it also teach that people, seeing the invisible things of God in creation, are free to repent & turn to God? Paul said to the pagan Athenians:

24

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth n

ot

in temples made with hands;

......

27

That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be n

ot

far from every one of us:

Is there, therefore, a way of salvation for repentant sinners apart from the Gospel of Christ? Is there no condemnation for those who have not heard the Gospel of Christ & therefore cannot believe in him of whom they have not heard? If the revelation of God's being in the light of creation renders mankind without excuse, must it also provide the means of salvation?

Up to a point we can make logical deductions from Scripture, as the OP does, but our deductions MUST be constrained by Scripture. That is where the anticalvinists fail in their logic - they make their own deductions from their (mis)understanding of Reformed doctrine.

What did Jesus mean when he said:

Mat. 11:

25

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because

thou hast hid these things from the wise and prude

nt

, and hast revealed them u

nt

o babes.

26

Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27

All things are delivered u

nt

o me of my Father: and

no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

28

Come u

nt

o me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 6:

44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath se

nt

me draw him

: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh u

nt

o me.

John 16:

8

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgme

nt

:

9

Of sin, because they believe n

ot

on me;

10

Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11

Of judgme

nt

, because the prince of this world is judged.

The universal sinfulness of man is clear, as is his desperate need of salvation. Does sinfulness, & need, & inexcusable guilt, imply the ability to repent & believe with the Holy Spirit convincing sinners of their state? That you need to establish from Scripture if you are to make a convincing case for guilty sinners to be able to believe apart from the work of the Holy Spirit.

Amazing how they can take scripture where Jesus is speaking to JEWS and then try and apply it the CHURCH!! Everything that Jesus said there was to fulfill the prophecy that the Jews would not know Him when He came.

Yes it IS ONLY GOD that draws man to Christ, but not as you try to imply that God only draws His own.

It is through the CROSS, the life, death and resurrection of Christ that is the GOSPEL, that God has used to draw ALL men to Him who will BELIEVE. That is why it is through the FOOLISHNESS of PREACHING that man is made aware that his sin separates him from God and he is in need of a savior. Romans makes it clear that ALL know right and wrong, but they do not know that there "right" can never be good enough and there "wrong" separates them from God. Preaching makes them aware, gives them the ability to make an informed decision based on TRUTH so that they may have no excuse. This doctrine of "irresistible grace" or "predestined election" is of the devil and no matter how hard you look you will NEVER find it in the bible.

I've heard many say this verse means or proves that one can get to heaven without Jesus. They point to the time this was written when virtually the entire population of the planet had know way of knowing about Jesus. They also point to all those prior to this being written who would have had no way to know. As well, it's pointed out even today there are millions who have never heard of Christ and won't in their lifetime.

I've encountered this many times. How do we rightly speak to this?

It's a difficult one. But Romans makes it very clear that in one way or another God has revealed Himself to man. Creation itself affirms the presence of a Creator regardless of what National Pornographic tries to prove otherwise. I personally believe that even though we live under the dispensation (covenant to some) of grace and the cross, there will be those who have never heard of God or Christ that will be judged by the law that is in the heart of EVERY created being. If one does a study of anthropology and theosophical anthropology (study of the origin of beliefs within cultures) one will always see that they have laws of right and wrong that they attempt to abide by and this is the case regardless of race, culture or creed. The how God will judge these that have never heard is something we can not know now. But we do know He is a merciful God who gave us Himself in the form of His son to die for us and there are many cases in the OT and when Christ walked as a man where those outside the Jewish belief showed a goodness of heart and a depth of faith in what was right that were granted mercy - the woman at the well being one example.
The Law came after Noah yet he was regarded as a righteous man. The method of God's saving grace has not always been the same and we would do well not to put Him in a box because our lack of knowledge and understanding. I am not saying that there are more ways to heaven than Jesus. I am saying that the knowledge of God the Creator and His Law is in the heart of every living person from birth and one only needs to see children push their boundaries to see that even a two year old knows right and wrong. I emphasize knows here because they know but do not yet understand. Remember the tree of the knowledge of good and evil - eating of the fruit opened there eyes? What were their eyes opened to? The knowledge of good and evil and this knowledge was an understanding of good and evil, before this understanding they were as babes.
I wonder sometimes that although we are "born" in sin because of Adam that the guilt of that sin is only imparted onto us when we UNDERSTAND what right and wrong is. If not then every child born to die a baby is in hell, every aborted fetus in hell and from what I see of God's character throughout the ENTIRE bible shows a God of mercy that searches the heart of every man and judges according to accountability.
Like I said, it's a difficult one and sometimes all we can say is "I don't know".

I'm glad the troll is gone. I got the same message as well.

Troll? More like a nutty warlock with too much D&D games.

I might get flack for this but I believe that this type of thing must be exposed and brought into the "light"

Sent to me from "Lion of God" today and I wonder if I am the only one who got this?

Sent Today, 08:53 AM
I know you love the Lord Jesus so much that you like I, want them who is going to bless the Lord Jesus the most with the blessings they have, so much that this will be acceptable to you as it is with me. So I sent you this so as you would know what happened to you. So you can praise the Lord for it as you see this come to pass.

Lord Jesus the Christ,
I petition thee to grant me this request.

I request that if this person using this screen name "2Tim215" on this web site, loves you more than I. Take all of the curses and all of the afflictions that are on their mind, heart and soul and all their life and put them upon me. Take all the blessings that God your Father has given to me and give them all to this person using the screen name "2Tim215" on this web site and all their love ones.

But Lord Jesus,

If I love you more than this person, using this screen name "2Tim215 " on this web site. Take all of the curses and afflictions that are on my mind, heart and soul and all my life and put them on them and their love ones. Take all the blessings that God your Father has given to this person using the screen name "2Tim215" on this web site and all their love ones, and give them all to me.

amen.

The Lord giveth the Lord taketh away

blessed be the name of the Lord.

amen

THIS IS WITCHCRAFT!!!!!!!!

What everyone forgets here is Paul is only doing what he preached. That is:

Php 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
Php 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

How could he do any less when his Savior did the same thing:

Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Both knew what lay ahead and both had a CHOICE and both decided on there own to do God's will. We should not look at this a warning not to go but rather as a revelation of what was to be with the decision left in Paul's hands. I think Paul knew the will of God in this and his companions acted out of fear and doubt and lack of faith. Many of us do the same and rant at a "cruel" God that leads his people into suffering and death and don't trust that He knows whats best. Maybe we should all learn to be content as Paul teaches and trust as he did. To sacrifice as Christ did and KNOW that God knows best.

If the question is did Paul ever sin in his life after seeing the Risen Christ, then yes, he did. Take for example 2 Cor 12. Paul speaks of the thorn in the flesh. I was always taught that this was a physical ailment or weakness he had to deal with, but on deeper study have to wonder if this common teaching is correct. When we speak of grace we usually know it concerns salvation and that salvation is us being freed from sin in Christ. So grace most often coincides with sin in our lives. Paul in the opening of the chapter speaks of glorifying oneself and that "lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure." He IMHO was struggling with the sin of pride and self glorification here over his fellow believers because of his special dispensation and position as a servant to Christ. Pride is not always a physical sin of action but more often a mental and one of the heart, so did he physically sin here? Possibly, maybe not but I think he did in his heart and mind and was reminded that God's grace is sufficient ALWAYS and greater than any sin we might have.

I'm very proud that someone around here understands this dangerous doctrine.

That make two of us.

True, but the agenda of "Irresistible Grace", etc will be pushed every time there is an opening. The bible is the whole truth and must be taken in it's entirety, I never believe those who use it to push a single doctrine. And if one reads it in it's entirety one will see that regeneration is always after salvation not before, that's why it's been called "born again"
Unless we "gestate" for 9 months while He regenerates us and then are born again. But seeing as this is now lets get .

I agree "that God can not ever be held accountable by man" but has he indeed "given every possible escape route for us to be saved from sin and death?" Some still have never heard the Gospel.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

If you are saying that God works in the hearts of men to lead them to Him, then I agree. BUT I do not believe that it is only the hearts of certain "chosen" people that God decides to work with. He works in the hearts of EVERY humane being ever born through the glory of creation, His Word, His messengers, etc (read Romans) but we have the God given ability to choose to listen or not, to believe or not, to follow or not and to obey or not.

Something even Adam and Eve had, or were they "predestined to sin? Was Moses predestined to kill the guard and thus "fulfill" his "destiny" David "predestined to kill Goliath? Or was it maybe that Eve CHOSE to disobey and Adam CHOSE to take responsibility? Did Moses not get angry and CHOOSE to kill? And David had, did he not have FAITH and CHOSE to stand up and take courage in his FAITH? Are we all automatons that have no choice in anything? Calvinism sounds very much like the eastern religions of destiny and fate where ones life is pre-written, very much like the eastern religion called Catholicism that it originated from.

It's all very well and good to say -

Only to those who don't believe the scriptures that say the oposite.

But you will note that I asked some questions too - have underlined them in cased you missed them - I challenge you to answer them with scripture to back your answers! And here are some points for you to consider:

Before the cross:

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

After the cross:

Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

And just in case you don't know what "IF" means:

if/if/
Conjunction: Introducing a conditional clause. Noun: A condition or supposition: "there are so many ifs and buts in the policy". Synonyms:
conjunction. whether - when - in case - supposing
noun. condition

if [ɪf]
conj (subordinating)
1. in case that, or on condition that if you try hard it might work if he were poor, would you marry him?
2. used to introduce an indirect question. In this sense, if approaches the meaning of whether
3. even though an attractive if awkward girl
4.
a. used to introduce expressions of desire, with only if I had only known
b. used to introduce exclamations of surprise, dismay, etc. if this doesn't top everything!

as if as it would be if; as though he treats me as if I were junior to him
n
1. an uncertainty or doubt the big if is whether our plan will work at all
2. a condition or stipulation I won't have any ifs or buts
[Old English gif; related to Old Saxon ef if, Old High German iba whether, if]


So what is a conjunction:


A Subordinating Conjunction (sometimes called a dependent word or subordinator) comes at the beginning of a Subordinate (or Dependent) Clause and establishes the relationship between the dependent clause and the rest of the sentence. It also turns the clause into something that depends on the rest of the sentence for its meaning.

• He took to the stage as though he had been preparing for this moment all his life.
• Because he loved acting, he refused to give up his dream of being in the movies.
• Unless we act now, all is lost.
  

All this proves a condition on the part of the listener, believer, reciever - that being US. And here is why:

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

So that God can not ever be held accountable by man as He has given every posiible excape route for us to be saved from sin and death.

CAN IT NOT BE ANY SIMPLER?!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jerry80871852, on 08 May 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:
The reformed, that believes Calvinism, follows Calvin's teachings, the TULIP doctrine, do not believe these verses as written.
No - Reformed doctrine demands subjection to the Word of God, not to Calvin or any man-made system of doctrine. "Calvinism is a nickname.

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Jo 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

They do not believe that whosoever in the above verses refers to everyone, they believe it refers only to certain people, & all others are doomed to hell the instant they're born.
We believe in the absolute truth of those verses - there is no rejection of the repentant sinner by God. Sadly, all are born sinners - dead in trespasses & sins - and are doomed to hell apart from repentance & saving faith. Do you not believe that?

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

They do not believe that, 'Who will have all men to be saved,' really means all men can be saved, they calim the all refers only to few certain people, the rest will go to hell.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In the above verse, they believe that, 'not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance,' Refers only to a certain group of people, & the rest will go to hell.
If it is universally true that God wills that ALL should be saved, How can it be that God's will is frustrated by the countless sinners who reject the Gospel?

DHUUUUUU! Free will !!!

Something even Adam and Eve had, or were they "predestined to sin? Was Moses predestined to kill the guard and thus "fulfill" his "destiny" David "predestined to kill Goliath? Or was it maybe that Eve CHOSE to disobey and Adam CHOSE to take responsibility? Did Moses not get angry and CHOOSE to kill? And David had, did he not have FAITH and CHOSE to stand up and take courage in his FAITH? Are we all automatons that have no choice in anything? Calvinism sounds very much like the eastern religions of destiny and fate where ones life is pre-written, very much like the eastern religion called Catholicism that it originated from.

The reformed, that believes Calvinism, follows Calvin's teachings, the TULIP doctrine, do not believe these verses as written.

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Jo 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

They do not believe that whosoever in the above verses refers to everyone, they believe it refers only to certain people, & all others are doomed to hell the instant they're born.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

They do not believe that, 'Who will have all men to be saved,' really means all men can be saved, they calim the all refers only to few certain people, the rest will go to hell.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In the above verse, they believe that, 'not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance,' Refers only to a certain group of people, & the rest will go to hell.

For years I could never understand why some believed that God was "picky" concerning who was going to be saved and then I realized that it was nothing more than man's need to be "special", "chosen", "set aside" and that they were usually people that had some serious sin in their lives and this "need" stemmed from their not being able to accept and understand God's unconditional forgiveness. May be wrong here, but this is the only way I can understand an untrue doctrine that teaches that some are better than others when all are equal in God's eyes and that equality means nothing more than ALL are sinners and need Christ.

I refuse to use the term "eternal security". It is not found in the Bible. I use eternal life, everlasting life. I think eternal security is a degradation of God's Word. The common thread in eternal life and everlasting life is life, not security.

Their being in the resurrection of the just is definitely based on their believing, and their works following suit.

I did a exact word search and looked up "Jesus loves you" and "Jesus saves" and would you guess it - it's not found in the bible but we use it all the time. Would you call these a degradation of God's Word and refuse to say them? Or is this a case of throwing the baby out with the bath water? Typical of most IFB's to find something and stick to it like a tick on a dog. The term "eternal security" means just that - secure in the eternal grace of God who has given us eternal life through the blood of His son Jesus Christ. Rapture is another term not found in the bible - do you refuse that too?

I am not denying that grace was part of it. But do you believe that the OT saints had eternal security? Were they eternally saved once off and unable to lose it? Or was it a works based salvation that needed continual sanctification by obeying the law and doing the sacrifices?

Sorry all that I haven't replied yet, actually forgot I posted this what with all the other stuff going on. Thanks for the advice, got plenty of time but as we know, time flies faster the older you get and my most important concern now is the preparing for HS. The teaching from birth to 5 or so. never to young to start.

At least 120 years before the flood, Noah, by faith, found 'grace' in the eyes of the Lord. You can read about him in Hebrews 11. Even today, those who are unsaved are under the law.

Agreed and I think I know where Heb 11 is. And yes I am aware that the unsaved now are under the law. But what if Noah decided to stop building the Ark? He would have drowned with the rest of them but would he be in heaven? I am assured that no matter what my sin after salvation is I will still be seated with Christ in heaven as I am already seated in heavenly places with Christ. Were any of the great men of faith ASSURED salvation regardless of there actions after there initial act of faith that placed them in Heb 11? Unless of course these great men had a different covenant with God than the rest of their family and mankind.

Was Noah assured ETERNAL salvation because he built the ark? Then why was he the first to build a sacrificial alter? Was Abraham assured ETERNAL salvation because he was prepared to sacrifice his son?

Every believer from Adam, to Abel, to Enoch, Noah, Abraham etc. was saved by grace through faith. Jesus is the Word who spoke the Worlds into existence, He is the I Am who spoke to Moses from the burning bush, he is the Son of God who walked with the three Hebrew children in the fiery furnace, He is the "My Lord" whose enemies the Psalmist David declared would, sit at his footstool. He is the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega. He is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Old Testament beleivers look forward To the cross whereas WE look backward to it. He was ALREADY slain from the foundation of the world, the Bible says, but He was slain physically at the cross ca 2000 years ago. The day that Peter declare "thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" he was already a believer. The Bible says in John chapter 1 "even to them that believe on his name". Believers were calling on "his name" way back in Genesis 4.

Don't know if I believe this "grace before the cross" salvation of the OT saints. My bible reads LAW then GRACE. WORKS then FAITH. I can not find one instance, not one where the name of Jesus is mentioned in the OT so how could they call on His name when they didn't know it. He was slain before the foundation of the world because God lives outside/inside and is time. He was only slain in the flesh some 2000 yrs ago and it's the "slain in the SINLESS FLESH" that makes it a acceptable sacrifice to God.

If Peter, or anyone else, could be saved with eternal life as we know it before the death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and the day of Pentecost, then the church of the body began before Pentecost? And Romans 10:9,10 did not apply to those people?

Agreed, but we forget John 17 and I reiterate my point that Peter and the other 10 disciples were protected until there conversion at Pentecost. They may not have been "saved" by the Blood, but they were definitely saved from falling away and protected by God. As good as saved IMHO. Possibly a "special dispensation" or "covenant" specifically for them.

John 17: 1-19 KJV

Jesus Prays to Be Glorified
1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Has anyone stopped to think it might be as simple as salvation?

IE:

Believe = saved
Worship = humility

God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud (I know - He's been "resisting" me my whole life! ) To worship Him in any form is to humble ourselves and through consistent and heartfelt worship we die to our sinful nature and give more of ourselves wholly over to Him.

I was curious to see the comments that would come about and it proves a theory I have - we try to hard to complicate God's Word and forget this:

1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

I think we give ourselves too much credit for our "understanding" sound doctrine and forget that Jesus said:

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Children trust implicitly, explicitly and "worship" those they love - do we?

Adam was never equal to God, not even close, God created Adam out of the dirt from the ground which He created. God, has always been, & will always be, He has no beginning or end. there is nothing nor no one even remotely equal to God. And God is the only One that ever created anything out of nothing. Man speaks about creating, yet he never creates, He takes something that God created, them forms it into something, that is not creating something from nothing.

And it seems God created all things, including man, for His pleasure.

Re 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

And He seeks men who will worship Him in truth & in spirit.


Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I did not imply that Adam raised himself up as equal to God. Did God not create Adam as a companion? Was Adam not created in His image after His own likeness? Does this not imply that God CREATED Adam as an equal and I don't mean equal as in the same but as in the same as a husband and wife are equal yet not? Are we not the bride of Christ who is the "new Adam" (1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.) Is this not the same type of relationship? Is Christ not God? Go back and read your bible and you will see that Adam was created as higher than the angels and as more than your post implies. It is us who are in a fallen state but not after we are saved - then we are raised up from nothing to something.

If Christ is equal to God and we are His Bride what does that make us? By His grace we are seated in heavenly places WITH Him. By His grace He created Adam in His image after His own likeness. So what does that make Adam - nothing?

Thanks Calvary - that was as good as it gets - never saw it that way before.