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Independent Fundamental Baptist
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Everything posted by 2Tim215

  1. KJV1611 is right. By your definition anyone who falls back into sin at any time in their life was never saved. When I state the "I live like the devil" - you will note that it is in inverted commas. This is because some of you have already decided to label me in this manner. Like you, I am of the flesh and as such live in sin ALWAYS. I fall, I get angry, I sin daily, I often do what I want and not what I should and often I wish I had never heard of the gospel or Jesus Christ. BUT I know that He is real, I know He died for me, I know WHY he died for me and I know without a doubt that I am saved!!! This whole true salvation and false salvation thing that a lot of you IFB's use to justify your lack of understanding of why people live unchanged lives smacks of Calvinism. I chose to believe and I choose to continue to live in sin or not, and this is never permanent. It changes every second of every day. Life happens and some of you are blessed to have a loving community of believers surrounding you where you are held accountable, chastised, loved and motivated and finally, have reason to believe in God's goodness rather than His indifference. For many that is not the case and if you believe in eternal security you will hopefully understand the absolute simple beauty of God's saving Grace. He made it simple for a reason, the entire bible testifies that man can not get saved by works, that nothing he does will ever satisfy God's righteousness and that only through Jesus are we made acceptable unto Him. That if we believe once off at any one time in our lives we are promised eternal salvation. And the reason this is of God alone is because NOTHING we can EVER do can take that promise away, that our works can not bank it and our sin can not withdraw it. It is done and will for ever stay done. IFB's slam all others who don't believe in eternal security yet turn around and say that if they don't live holy lives they were never saved. Many believe they can lose their salvation and "repent" daily - You believe they were never saved in the first place if no change occurs. This whole thing that you need to repent and change in order to be saved stinks of works based salvation - so I have to throw the question back at you - are you truly saved if you think that you can convince God that you are worthy to be saved because you "repented"? Me, I think I will stay with the fact that I am unworthy, was unworthy and remain unworthy and it is only His grace that saved me. Remember, it is not how many times they fall, it's how many times they get up - even if it's only in the heart where the judgmental pharisees can not see, GOD SEES IT!!!
  2. Not true, that would be the same as taking Acts 2: 38 and saying that one needs to be baptized to be saved. In Acts 15 we see the discussion concerning salvation through works and by faith (believing) and it was proven by Peter to those gathered that salvation is by faith and faith alone - verses 6 - 12. There is no need for repentance, baptism or anything else before believing in the saving grace of Christ. This the scripture IS CLEAR on!!! Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
  3. I have always known this - the Word is clear on salvation. It is men who want to have something do with their own salvation that complicate things. Was just nice to see someone put it clearly down in words - If anyone can not see the truth in this then they really need to go and spend some time studying it without their own interpretations or those of others.
  4. Amen!! I am saved. The bible said it, I believe it. Jesus did it, I accept it. Even if I do still "live like the devil". Salvation is simple and that is the beauty of it. A child does not need to know the doctrine of salvation to be saved - they know that Jesus died for them, they believe it, they accept it and all they need to "understand" about it is it that it can only be through Him and it is done - remember 1 Cor 1:27 - salvation is meant to be simple and we men don't like that. We want to say we had a part in in it by saying we "repent" of our sins - that we can for that second stop sinning and make right with God. We like to complicate things a little too much methinks. Put things back into our own hands. KJV1611 - best description I have ever heard for salvation - well done!!!
  5. When I know I'll let you know. Complicated.
  6. Again, missing the point. I agree 100% with modesty, but I rule my house as Christ (most times - when I let Him) rules me. But many times I do not let Him and so it is in the church - we must ask, always, is what we do Christ based or man based, and more often than not you will find it man based.
  7. Besides, I think you missed the point I was making - That many of us IFB's are very arrogant in our assurance of what is right or wrong or "biblically correct" and that ofttimes it's based on individuals interpretations that the rest just follow - let us all be as the Bereans and question the motives behind some "rules" and "traditions" - If it's in the bible - then by all means obey - but it must be in context and backed by the rest of the Word.
  8. Not depressed, just angry - far worse!! And Amen to the whirlwind. Some of us can't hear the "still small voice" and need the whirlwind!!
  9. Having read this thread through, the question one must always ask is: "Is it God's will?" And the short answer to that is that only the persons themselves will know. Yes there are clear directives in the bible concerning certain things we have to live by, but modesty is tricky. I am blessed to have a wife that is modest, yet in modest attire looks stunning and dare I say it, appealing. This is no fault of hers, and I can not and will not ever tell her that she must now wear sack cloth because some man can not keep his eyes to himself. They say the worst non smoker is one who used to smoke and it is always the case with ex smokers that they will always want another cigarette - the addiction never leaves, the habit can be controlled, but any ex smoker knows that even one drag will put you right back. My reason for that simile is simple - where there is fire there is smoke and any church that subjugates woman must have there leadership checked. Woman were not created less than man, just different with different roles. Men do not have leadership over woman because they are inferior. Ehp 5:25 makes it clear how we are to treat our wives. Is the body inferior to the head even though the head leads the body? They are after all the same flesh, just with different roles. Like wise the husband and wife, the parent and child, the church and pastor, the Bride and Christ. A lot of these IFB rules remind me of the Pharisees, and we know what Jesus thought of them (vipers), so I ask if pants is really the issue in churches that maintain such standards, are they following the will of God, is this pastors wife so wrong to refuse and does her husband not secretly agree with her sentiments that he does not convince her otherwise? A mini skirt is still a skirt, so do we ban all skirts? There are woman's pants that are modest. I agree that tight fitting pants designed to reveal the curves have no place in the church, or any where else for that matter, but do these churches ban the woman who wear these pants outside of church? John81 has it exactly right and I myself will not be a member of any church that uses man made rules to subjugate the congregation into living a life of slavery when Jesus set us free from all that. It is these and many more wrongs in the IFB churches that makes me angry. We who are IFB and maintain that we hold to the fundamentals of the faith, have the true inspired Word of God, follow sound biblical doctrine and have a better understanding of God's word and how it is meant to be "rightly divided" than "those other churches" should lead by example and not by arrogance and the need to be right. I do not maintain to know the wife, her attitude, her husband, nor the particular church involved. But we all need to remember that the Pharisees were against Christ, ironic when there name meant "the separated ones" or also known as chasidim, which means loyal to God, or loved of God. They were known for their strict adherence to the scriptures, yet in the end controlled through many stupid rules and regulations based on their own interpretations. We as IFB's must be very wary that we do not fall into the same trap, condone the same misguided zealous behavior and must never "forget our first love" I end with this verse that is as applicable toady as it was 2000 + years ago - "Mat 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees."
  10. The only prOBlem is when some architect or engineer goes and revises the plan (like they always do) - on the whole you might end up with same building on the outside, but inside it's an entirely different story.
  11. I agree, but a lot of emergent churches start out charismatic and people seeker (even staunch IFB"s). Personally I feel it's the start of the one world church where everything goes and all roads lead to Rome (God). Where the mixing and accepting of faiths starts you know the Word has left the building.
  12. Here's my two cents: Personally, I am a KJO kinda guy, but I do not believe that one can not learn something nor get saved by many of the newer versions of God's Word. God will use a brick to get someones attention if He has to, He used a rock to give water in the desert to prove a point. I know that the KJO argument has many dark faces and many darker advocates. I am not saying that all are that way inclined, but you get the few IFB's that can get down right nasty on this issue and then there are those that allow God to enlighten in His own time - I am one of the latter. There is nothing more forbidding than telling a saved believer that his doctrine and bible are "wrong" just because one believes it to be so and in the end, regardless of what anyone says this KJO thing is based only on what one believes to be true to themselves. I have yet to come across a verse that states "Thy shall read the 1611AV King James Bible only and thou shalt condemn all other versions of the devil". Think about it. How do you convince a person that the foundation they have based there entire life's doctrine and understanding of God, Jesus, salvation and the church is now wrong or skewed? Definitely not by forcing KJO doctrine down there throats. You do it subtly with much prayer, understanding, patience and love. Not by telling they are stupid as some KJO liests do. Now to my point - I am a newbie here so stand corrected if my assumption is incorrect here. Do we as KJO IFB's help those who do not adhere to our beliefs by closing them out of areas of our "life" (forum) for the sake of not having to deal with the nutty side of both factions (I have seen this on the 1611 site - can get a little crazy) or do we allow them to decide for themselves and just ban them when they get crazy and malicious? There are many out there tired of the wishy washy doctrine being preached in the world today and are seeking the truth - do we close the doors of the church just because someone doesn't agree with the preacher. I say let them in and let God and the power of the Word deal with them. They will soon leave when there fire doesn't cause the reaction they are looking for. Now can someone pls direct to this doctrinal statement so I can become "unprotected"
  13. It's really sad that this is happening to IB churches and even other churches that are bible based. I know - my friend is a pastor and has been for over ten years and the church has never grown more than 20-30 at most and all poor - difficult to feed a family on that. But he will NEVER (I hope) give up sound doctrine for a nice house and car. Maybe it's time we payed (paid) more attention to those who serve faithfully and backed off from that new toy we want.
  14. No hard feelings John81 - we are all entitled to our "assumptions". And I hope the prayer is not just lip service - need all the fervent prayer of the righteous that I can get.
  15. The "emerging church" is something I have had to deal with a lot here in SA as IB churches are scarcer than a perfect person. We call them "people seeker" churches amongst other names. I have found that one of the biggest reasons many pastors and church leaders go this route is due to lack of money. The reason for this is their entire doctrine is based on attracting people to the services - more people = more money and times are tight. So they take out stuff that convicts and offends and put in social events and a doctrine that is watered down and makes people feel good. The best way to tell a emergent pastor is too see if they are self orientated motivational speakers where the Word is used out of context to make one feel good about oneself in Christ - this being their main form of teaching. The IB church where I live went that route - no more hymns (old fashioned) replaced by modern worship. and a full music "ministry". , Other "little" things like sound doctrine and bible based sermons also faded away - now it's just another charismatic church without Tongues and people falling down. A good example is a church down the road has a slogan that denotes everything they stand for and is the underlying theme of their entire teaching - friendship before function - should say it all!!
  16. John81, I am not quick to attack nor reject what is put forth as long as it is relevant, backed up by scripture and not one's opinion and finally, based on the love of Christ. You will note that in my first post I asked for scripture, not someones opinion. Yes, I may be angry with God, but I am not suicidal and my goal was to stir up a hornets nest and see what came out. You will also note that many who replied were humble, gentle and really concerned in their replies, not bigoted, arrogant and opinionated. My reason for the post was to see if this site had IB's who are full of themselves in their assurance that they are the only ones that know God, the Word, are saved and every one else is unsaved and doctrinally dammed. Having studied theology through and Independent Baptist college I "humbly" think that I have read the word a little on the odd occasion and am 100% sure that the scriptures you refuse to take the time to quote do not refer to fruit being the end result of salvation, but rather obedience. The first three Gospels in context refer to fruit as in directly linked to the nation of Israel - the Jews, and we know that doctrinally we can not take doctrine intended for the Jews and make it our doctrine, though we can learn from it. In John Jesus is telling them to abide in Him - this is an action on behalf of the believer and does not refer to salvation - again - obedience on the part of the believer. Every where else that Paul mentions fruit he is exhorting the believers to obey and live as Christ lived - action not result. Eph 5: 9 - (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth These are actions on behalf of the believer. There are two types of fruit - the fruit a believer manifests through obedience and the fruit that is Christs (the Church) -James 5:7. So you John81, being perfect, have never sinned, do not continue to sin and thus are not of the devil (1John 3:8), whereas according to your doctrine those of us who sin and do not bear fruit are not saved and are of the devil and 1John 1:8 does not apply to you and I am sure that you have not Heb 12: 4'ed!! I think that I will hold fast to Heb 10:10 (By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.) and to vrs 17 (And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.) and that Heb 10 :26-31 does not apply to the believer as in context Paul was speaking to the Jews throughout the chapter concerning the Law and those choosing to remain under it. Like I said, everything you stated there is an action on behalf of the believer, the fruit being the direct result directly proportional to the obedience of the believer, otherwise according to your belief all believers would all be producing exactly equal and living fruit filled lives, and the last time I was in church that was sadly not the case, unless of course your church does and if so then please forgive me and let me know where you are so that I can also be perfect. And as for reading the Word - I have.
  17. - Seeing as you are quick to state scripture, lets see some references for salvation being responsible for fruit and the fact that it is not biblical for saved believes to live lives "like the devil".
  18. Frankly, I am so sick of the Independent Baptist answer to everything they don't quite get - " Was he/she really saved?" The Word is VERY clear on salvation -if you at any time believed on Jesus Christ as your personal Savior then you are saved regardless of how you live afterward or if you confessed your sins and repented or were baptized or not or any other of the "IF'S". Many a born again believer is lying drunk in there own vomit somewhere, or considering/committing adultery, etc. You don't have to remember the exact day, time and place you gave your life to the Lord to be saved, nor do you have to be a 1611 KJV Bible believing Baptist to be the only one going to heaven. Signs and fruits have nothing to do with your state but with your standing - this means that your state is in Christ and He has your salvation in His hands forever - your standing however is entirely up to you and the choices you make and the signs/fruits you bear reflect this not the grace of Christ. It's easy to call someone a coward from the other side of the fence, maybe you should walk a mile in my shoes. I have faced death many times in my life and I can tell you that any one who decides to take their own life is not a coward, they have more than likely faced more in their lives than you could ever handle, on your own or on your knees!!! Thanks, tried that too many times, but thanks for the kind words and keep on keeping on. Suicide is not my way of dealing with things, but as an option has it's merits. Every person has the right to choose life or death. We do this at salvation when we choose life in Christ over death in sin. I am not the first to be angry with God and neither will I be the last if He keeps on tarrying. I wanted to see the reaction this thread would incur and besides the usual IB bigotry I have come to hate I have seen a love not often seen in IB forums or people and to see if just maybe there was a hidden verse I hadn't found yet . So thanks to those who care and to those who don't.
  19. First off, I find it ridiculous that I am unable to read or post on nearly all the available forums. Are we IB's so conservative that we have to protect ourselves from the view points of outsiders. Now to the main question I have that I must post here as I was not allowed to post in the relative forum. Can a saved believer commit suicide and lose there salvation? Now before I get a sermon on eternal security understand that I have been saved for over 25yrs and a 1611 AVKJB baptist for most of them. I just want biblical references to prove either or as I can find nothing besides the catholic point of view anywhere. I plan to be seeing my maker soon as we have unresolved issues that need sorting and I'm sick of the christian pretense that He actually listens and -wait for it - answers. Time for a face to face and yes I'll say it when most of you want to, but don't have the "" to say it - i'm one p'd off child of God and apologize if this offends, but life ain't pretty.
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