2Tim215

On 12/26/2018 at 5:07 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Since Brother Alan specifically mentioned me, I will present the information for the website of the church over which the Holy Spirit has called me to pastor.  To be clear - I pastor a small country church in a small village within the Thumb area of Michigan, nothing of popular importance.

www.melvinbaptistchurch.com 

(Note: I struggled a bit with presenting this information because I do not desire to push myself forward in any manner.  Please receive this information in the spirit with which it was delivered.)

Listened to some of your sermons yesterday. Such a blessing. Thank you

6 hours ago, Alan said:

1. Pastor Ron Thomas, Rodges Baptist Church, Garland, TX, is a larger church that  love the Lord and has stayed true to the faith once delivered to the saints. They are able to have an extensive website with an extensive  audio and YouTube ministry to help those  who desire to listen to a good ministry over the internet.

Here is the link to their media ministry: http://www.rodgersbaptist.net/media/

2. The "Gospel Web," created by missionary James Dearmore, is a more extensive ministry with written articles concerning many different subjects, sermons, and issues. He also has a link to other fine IFB churches and ministries. 

Here is the link to the Gospel Web: http://www.gospelweb.net/mainindex.htm

As brother John Young and Old Fashioned Preacher mentioned, there are a lot of fine IFB churches still in America today. So often they are in the limelight. In fact, even some of the bigger ones like Rodgers Baptist Chruch are relatively unknown due to the fact they have a good spirit about their ministry, they do not create controversial issues to attract attention, they have not compromised the doctrines of the scriptures, they believe and practice in soul winning, are strong KJV, and have a sincere love for people.

Thanks Alan, appreciate it. I have never heard of any of these that you have mentioned. Will definitely look into these. My home church is 1000 kms away so and my wife and I are probably the only KJB believers in our town. Though I tell the truth to anyone who will listen none do these days

14 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Since Brother Alan specifically mentioned me, I will present the information for the website of the church over which the Holy Spirit has called me to pastor.  To be clear - I pastor a small country church in a small village within the Thumb area of Michigan, nothing of popular importance.

www.melvinbaptistchurch.com 

(Note: I struggled a bit with presenting this information because I do not desire to push myself forward in any manner.  Please receive this information in the spirit with which it was delivered.)

Appreciate your candor Brother Scott

2 minutes ago, Alan said:

I was just about to leave when I noticed this. As I know you are in South Africa I will have to send you some with a church website. Most of the smaller churches do not have a website so I will have to find some of the larger churches that have a website. Tomorrow morning I will send you a private message with some men.

Off the top of my head, here on OnLineBaptist, John Young  is a pastor of a smaller church that has some sermons that he uploaded onto OnLineBaptist, Pastor Scott Markle has a website with a lot of fine sermons you can download and books that he has on his church website, Matt (the owner of OnLineBaptist), has a church website, Jim Alaska has a link to his home church, Old Fashioned Preacher (although on furlough) his old church in Kansas has a church website, Salyan's home church has a church website with some fine sermons that I have downloaded.

I am sure that I have missed some as I am pressed for time right now.

Thanks Alan. Will check these out. Appreciate it

Just now, Alan said:

I agree with John Young. There are still a lot of humble IFB pastors, working hard, feeding the flock, working in the limelight, serving the Lord, have not compromised, and are staying faithful. 

 

Mind messaging me a few names that I can check out?

7 minutes ago, John Young said:

I would say that the majority of IFB pastors are actually humbly and quietly working and serving in their local areas and are mostly model Christians (There are over 6,000 IFB preachers in America). Its the very few public, limelight teachers (many not even pasotrs or IFB) that spread most of the contention that I have seen which give that impression to the masses who see their bad spirit. And conversely the same attitude in those of the Non-KJB limlight teachers do not help matters any.

Sadly for us who do not reside in the States where the KJB and IFB are strong we only see those in the limelight and on the web and I must say that it doesn't paint a pretty picture. I am blessed though that I have enough understanding and knowledge now that I can ignore it and sift through for what I need. So far I have only found one consistent online preacher who does not play that game.

Haven't been on here in years but I can tell you from an outside perspective (foreign) that the constant in fighting, slandering, and arrogance of most IFB pastors is what is killing the KJB only to a certain degree.

2 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Ok, maybe you are a 'kingdom of God' vs. 'kingdom of Heaven' kinda person? That would explain why you are upset about my comments. I believe they are both the same thing, if that helps you with my view. Been through this type of discussion and it leads no where.

Thanks.

Not mad, don't get mad about doctrinal differences anymore. I do believe they are one and the same - different sides to the same coin if you will. I just like people to back up there statements with scripture. And yes, the entire bible does fall in line and though there were differing methods to people getting saved in the beginning chapters of the NT I understand the why and how so agree that this discussion will lead no where.

50 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

There was, is, and always shalbe, only one salvation gospel.

Only 'doctors' of the Bible will teach otherwise.

And you do know that doctors say they are practicing medicine don't you?

Well, that's what so-called Bible teachers are doing to the masses who really don't care about doctrine. 

They 'practice' on the sheeple. And boy have they created some terrible monsters of the faith. 

So you are saying we can only be saved by Jesus's "gospel of the kingdom"?

If you are we have a problem. It's very easy to throw thinly veiled insults and vague references to doctors and sheeple without actually giving evidence to your one salvation gospel. How I really hate it when people throw things out there as if it's THE truth and never giving scripture to back it up. They have the energy to type out hyperbole but never the energy to put in some scriptures to back up there claim. Give me some scriptures and then maybe we can continue this dialogue in a friendly and edifying manner. And whilst you are please point out the admittance of repentance of sin and the baptism by water for the thief on the cross. He did nothing more than accept his guilt, accept the innocence of Christ and ask to be remembered.

Luke 23:39-43

Here is a question:

Which gospel saves? Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom:

Mat_4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom,

Mat_24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mar1:1  The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Mar_1:14  Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God

In Acts 15:7 we see salvation being of two parts 1. hearing the gospel and 2. believing it.

In Acts 8 we see the gospel of the kingdom still being preached and this after the cross and then we see the Ethiopian being save by only believing Jesus to be the son of God and being baptized - kingdom gospel.

So when did the gospel change? Acts 10 when Peter has his vision. Take note from vrs 34.

Take particular note of :

Act 10:43  To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

And then take note how they were only baptized in water AFTER having received the Holy Ghost.

That is why when peter stood up before everyone that was arguing the true methods of salvation and stated:

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

EVERYONE "kept silence"

So I ask "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

Hi All - thoughts on the below?

Paradigm shifts, science and Systematic theology

Theology

Logos = Word and Logic

Theo = Relating to God or deities

Systematic

In accordance to a fixed plan or system (structured, logical, orderly) – methodical (a systematic or established form of procedure)

Therefore Systematic Theology is the ordered, logical, rational study of God and His character and nature as revealed to us through his Word.

The original idea behind systematic theology is based on certain assumptions. Assumptions being “a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof”

Science itself is also based on certain assumptions – these being:

·         There are natural causes for things that happen in the world around us.

·         Evidence from the natural world can be used to learn about those causes.

·         There is consistency in the causes that operate in the natural world.

A scientific theory has hypotheses (also called axioms or assumptions) which determine the theory.

I am using this example to clarify the term “assumptions”. That even the science we venerate above God is based on “assumptions”

The assumptions for Systematic theology:

·         That God has revealed Himself to man not only through nature but through the writings of the prophets and apostles – His Word

·         That when God reveals Himself it is in accordance to His character. As He is not the author of confusion (1 Cor 14:33) His revealed Word will be orderly, clear, concise, consistent and meant to be intelligible.

A further assumption would be that God’s revelation through the scriptures manifests the following attributes:

·         That there is UNITY in His Word.

·         That even though there is great diversity it all fits together and has unity in Him

·         That because of this UNITY there is COHERENCE in His Word

·         And finally, It is CONSISTENT as He is (Heb 13:8)

My assumption would be that you have some knowledge of God’s Word, are saved and believe that His Word is entirely true and without error.

Systematic Theology is the study of God through His Word using the system He provided. That system being a unified, logical, consistent, methodical, coherent planned study where the tiniest detail impacts and correlates EVERY other point in His Word. This is HIS system and the problem with Theology and any form of bible study today is that we impose our system  and expect it to work and when it doesn’t we say the bible and by association God must be in error instead of us.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Tim3:19-17

THIS IS THE PURPOSE AND FULL SCOPE OF THEOLOGY

To be instructed by God through His Word to be equipped to do His will.

Even though there are many competing systems of Systematic Theology that claim to be faithful to His Word we need to remember that these systems are not always infallible as man is fallible and that the doctrines revealed through these competing systems are to be tested. Some examples would be:

·         Dispensational Theology (Scofield)

·         Reformed theology

·         “Calvinism” (who did nothing more than repeat St Augustine and others before him)

·         Arminianism (free will)

If these systems do not agree on the fundamental doctrines of the bible then the system is in error and one needs to test them.

The study of Theology in any form is a science. The term science derived from the Latin word for Knowledge. Therefore through God’s revealed nature and character through His Word we have true knowledge of him (this presupposes you believe in God and the infallibility and inerrancy of His Word). So the science of Theology is to gain a coherent, consistent knowledge of God and His message.

The only way theology could not be a science is if it was impossible for us to attain any knowledge of God.

In science we have what is called Paradigm shifts. This is a fundamental change in our approach or underlying assumptions that make up a specific paradigm or scientific model. When this happens it is caused by anomalies within the model becoming more than what any scientist can ignore or easily explain away.

Thomas Kuhn states a revolution occurs within the scientific community when anomalies occur that cannot be explained by the universally accepted paradigm. When the anomalies become too great to be ignored a paradigm shift occurs that usually ends up with battle lines being drawn by opposing scientists. A case in point would be the transition between Maxwellian electromagnetic worldview and the Einsteinian relativistic worldview, the earth is round versus the earth is flat, who revolves around who – the sun or the earth.

These paradigm shifts after being resolved always end up with new knowledge being discovered and great progress being made in the sciences.

However, paradigm shifts in Theology are never a good thing. The knowledge that God has revealed to us in His Word has not changed. It’s the same that has been studied by scholars for millennia. And it is highly unlikely that any will occur so why have they in this period of the 20th century?

God’s Word is complete. There can be no knew discovery of knowledge of Him, only a deeper understanding as we diligently rightly divide. Any paradigm shifts in theology are never driven by new discoveries but rather by new philosophies driven by men that try to impose their system upon that of God’s. Or they try to achieve a synthesis between modern philosophies and teachings that are secular driven and impose those upon God’s Word again expecting  it to work and when it doesn’t then the bible and by association God must be in error.

Novelty in theology is dangerous. Novelty being the constant fascination with something new and the drive within the modern church to find new and fresh knowledge to achieve popularity, water down God’s Word and achieve momentary fame. Paul encountered this humane drive for constant new philosophies at Mars hill (Acts 17:21)

We do need individual progress in our knowledge and understanding of God’s revealed knowledge but need to be very wary and circumspect of any “new” discovery that is not coherent, consistent and backed up by the scriptures in their entirety, not just a verse out of context here and there.

Therefore the need for Systematic Theology

The Word of God studied in a manner that follows His system revealed to us through his Character.

·         Logical

·         Consistent

·         Coherent

·         Unified

·         In context

·         Putting Him first and not the world

A system where we take His Word in its ENTIRETY within CONTEXT and where EVERYTHING fits together.

A system that does not cause confusion. His Word studied correctly will never cause confusion and we must never mistake our lack of understanding and knowledge as the fault of His Word, but rather search deeper and rightly divide.

Thanks all. Appreciate the input. Coventer's explanation was more to what I had in the back of my mind. There were many signs and wonders during the period of the crusifiction and ressurection. One has to back scripture with scripture and the one that comes to mind here is:

1Co 1:22  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

It only says that they would prophesy, have visions, and dream dreams...it doesn't say how long those things would last, but that would be one of the indicators of the last days according to Joel's prophecy.

 

Again...the prophecy doesn't say that those things will last throughout the last days...they were indicators that they were in the last days.

 

The signs in heaven above and earth beneath certainly haven't happened yet (blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke, the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood), but the prophecy makes a clear distinction that those wonders and signs would only happen before the coming of the "notable day of the Lord".

No it doesen't - Peter (Acts 2:14-21) makes it very clear that the prophecy of Joel was the explanation of what they were currently seeing at pentacost. So where is the "clear" distinction that these would only happen "before the notable day of the lord" if they happened at pentacost and the notable day of the lord hasen't come yet? For almost 2000 yrs now?

It's is logical that those mentioned in vrs 19&20 have not come about but I am talking about vrs 17&18 - there is no clear distinction that these have ended nor come to an end. It simply states that this is what would happen in the last days, of which we are still living in. Or are we? How many last days can there be?

Why do we teach that prophecy etc has come to an end? Or did the apostles not know what they were talking about here and litterally thought they were living in the last days and that the day of the lord would come about in there life time?

So my understanding of it would be correct if I said that that prophecy of Joel's still stands today in our current time?

Here's a question that should pose some interesting debate:D It's got me confused.

Act 2:2  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Pentacost - filled with the spirit

Act 2:7  And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8  And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Speaking in foreign tounges.

Act 2:7  And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8  And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Act 2:12  And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Act 2:13  Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Amazed

But this is where it gets interesting:

Act 2:14  But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15  For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 

Peter uses the prophecy of Joel to explain that what they are seeing is this prophecy being fullfilled. If I stand by what I believe, that the Bible is the inspired word of God, is without error and that these spirit filled men knew what they were talking about why are they speaking about "last days", "day of the lord" and all the rest?

The rest is about Jesus, repentance and salvation. So how could Peter be speaking about signs and wonders and last days to explain a current event? And if we are to trust the bible - then how many last days are there? Because if there is only one, then that prophecy and what Peter says here means that from the moment this happened to our current time is the last days and then all I have been taught by the IFB church is wrong coz then everything in those verses is still applicable to THIS day - prophecy, tounges, visions and dreams - IE miracles, signs and wonders.

I don't need the usual arguments here. I have studied long enough and hard enough to be able to rightly divide on my own - but this one has stumped me. I am sure there is a logical explanation, just haven't figured it out yet.

the trail of blood by James milton Carrol

Ahh! Now I see what "copies" you were refering to - those same ones Jesus read from.

Where do you get this from? Do you have a scripture to back this statement? My bible says ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God. The context of the passage is in reference to copies too.

In the end it's faith. Do you trust that God preserved His Word? We can never know the original meaning nor why the translators chose that particular meaning - but we do know God promised to preserve His Word and even though He did do just that we still read it wrong sometimes and come up with our own translation to suit our own ends from His preserved Word. Must take dogs and wife to beach - will continue later.

Yes, if I remember right it was a requirement to go soul winning even if you took their correspodence course.

Wilchbla - agreed, excelent school but far more focused on teaching how to preach and rightly divide the Word than on "theology". More a focus on hands on than head knowledge. And though I have no problem using Hebrew and Greek and the studies of other great men - I will never take my doctrine or understanding of God's Word from them - this comes from His preserved Word - the KJB. I know the Baptist college here in SA no longer teaches that we are to be taken up and some of the other founding doctrines. But then a lot of the baptists lost the plot years ago.

I studied for a while through TBDI (http://www.tbdi.org/)and I know they are a KJB only college yet I can't remember ever been told catergoriaclly not to. I personnally will not use a dictionary or lexicon to get the meaning of a paasage or behind a word as I beleieve the context of the passage will always supply the required meaning - this is plain understanding of english - if the meaning is not immediatly obvious a little digging in the chapter will reveal it every time. I will however use them to get a little historical background to the author or setting for some deeper understanding if required.

I personally believe the KJB is plain enough without creating confusion from the opinions of others.

You can delete your face book account, the trick is to NOT log in for 30 days. Try it, it worked for me. When you delete the account the small print says that if you log in before 30 days are over it will be reactivated.

David Cloud is solid, and has many very excellent study materials. Don't throw out a solid ministry just because you differ with where he draws a particular line. If it wasn't for solid Bible teachers like Cloud, many more IFB individuals and churches would be by the wayside as well. His is a discernment ministry and it has its place for sure, regardless of whether someone might cross all their t's the same or not. Take what he presents, check it out with the Bible, and if it lines up, then hold to it - as you should do with any other sound Bible teacher or preacher. If something doesn't line up, then throw that part out - if a lot doesn't line up, then disregard that ministry. But if a lot of it lines up, then pray for discernment and wisdom** for what to do with what you think is not correct. If it is his personal opinion or conviction, but not a clear Bible principle, then take it as such - but if it is a clear Bible principle, then we need to heed it - regardless of our personal feelings about the source (providing the source is generally reliable - I am certainly not advocating dipping into the wells of infidelity or some wishy washy teacher to glean something to take with us. As they say: Eat the meat and spit out the bones - but if the meat is tainted, throw it out!).

**We should be praying for wisdom and discernment when studying the Bible and reading material by others anyway.

When someone is on a band wagon it's usually best to get off and ride your own horse.

Though I have many of David Clouds sermons I have never listened to one nor read anything of his or read much about him. So my coming statement is not directed to him. But I have found through personal experience that those that demand separatism are usually the least separated, especially when they make a point of exposing those that "disagree" or share a slightly differing view point. When someone is on a band wagon it's usually best to get off and ride your own horse.

Here is an excellent article that answers some questions on this subject, and refutes the false answers Calvinism gives:

What Is Biblical Predestination?