God's Child

Does anyone here reject a Church simply based on the fact that they don't call themselves IFB? They have a name like "Open Door Fellowship" and they teach and preach just like solid IFBaptist, but they call themselves independent/non-denominational and don't use the title Baptist at all.

Elvis put out gospel albums now and then that were popular, but I wouldn't buy any. The same could be said for the Gatlin brothers and the Oak Ridge Boys. Just because they produce a Christmas or gospel album doesn't mean we should have them in our homes.

I wish stores would play rock music. Most of what they play is that boring, unoffensive pop muzic (muzic= boring fluff that they claim is music).

Good posting, God's Child. I agree with you that associations do matter...but I'd prOBably go even further than you are suggesting. Association is just one of many principles that should inform our thinking in this area. IMO, "having God in the mission statement" doesn't go far enough.

In regards to the topic about Contemporary Music bringing great change to a Church, it's my assumption that the negative influence is because of the direct link it has to the world. Bricks, mortar, pews, lights and other needed things to make a congregating place possible are not the same as the actual materials used to worship God. Materials should be created by a Godly person. If you found out your Sunday School material was created by Playboy you wouldn't use it. All I am saying is that Godly music can be purchased from companies with God in their mission statement. Sony, WB, Columbia and the others don't have Godly people on their board of directors and when they look at the bottom line it's all about money. not creating materials for people to worship with. The songs are created to sell. The artist are mini-gods to many. This is a far cry from shopping at WalMart, or using electricity. It's about the minds and hearts behind what Churches sing. I fail to see where I am wrong here.

I don't like to visit restaurants that serve beer and wine, but I note that they are not conducting business for "Christians" .... they are worldly and serve the world. We are in the world, but not of it. Clearly, we will not be around Christians and Christian companies all the time. I work at a non-Christian company.

The Bible we read and preach from is the Word of God. It wasn't written to become a best seller and then used in our Churches. It was written to guide the hearts of mankind.

I assume most on this forum are against CCM and prOBably use hymn books and music in your church created from Sacred Music Services or Majesty Musicc .... both Godly companies not compromising.

One final note. Some might know Ricky Skaggs. He started Skaggs Family Records (to sell Bluegrass music) and isn't hooked up with any major label. Now I totally reject his music and stands, but he does show that one can be separate from the big record companies and not conform to their standards. He has a catalog, made deals to sell online, and yes he uses the world to shelve his product. But, at least the heart of the operation is from a man who wants to sell Bluegrass. What a blessing it would be if the saved of the Lord would start a record company and sell music for Church and Home that is nothing but music for God. God would bless such an effort.

Once again, God walks away from Churches that bring in the world. Bible clearly teaches not to get wisdom from this world. CCM in many shapes and forms is the world candy coated as "Christian"

So, you are telling me that Mrs. Jones, the 80 year old widow of the church should know about the legal associations between various record labels?

Most people do not know about those types of associations, nor would I expect them too.....

Back to the article, I agree that once CCM is in, all standards seem to suffer.

Provident Label Group (so-called Christian music label) is a standalone operating divisions of Sony Music Entertainment. http://providentpress.com/ shows some of their popular artist as Casting Crowns, Leeland, Third Day, Jars of Clay, Michael W. Smith .... and more. At the bottom of the website it states clearly "© 2010 Provident Label Group LLC, a unit of SONY MUSIC ENTERTAINMENT. All Rights Reserved."

I don't understand how any Church could use music published by Sony Music. You see, Sony also owns Columbia/Epic Label Group and some of their artist are listed as AC/DC, Aerosmith, Beastie Boys, Neil Diamond, The Rolling Stones .... and more. Not to mention, Sony Pictures Entertainment is on their roll also .... some really ungodly movies come out of that mess. Some rated NC-17.

Sparrow Records (so-called Christian) is a division of EMI. Sparrow Records currently has signed on Steven Curtis Chapman, Amy Grant, Bethany Dillon, Amy Grant, Matthew West ... and more.

I don't understand how any Church could use music published by EMI. You see, EMI also owns Capitol Music Group. Capital has on their roll Garth Brooks, The Beach Boys, Tina Turner and they distribute Apple Records (The Beatles) .... and more.

Fact is. Most Christian Pop musicians are making money for the WORLD. They use the WORLDS system to distribute and market music. I see no reason why they couldn't at least start a Christian label that doesn't connect with the world. No wonder their music is just like the worlds, they are yoked with the world.

Churches sing "Praise" music right? Ok. Who writes a bunch of it? One such guy would be Chris Tomlin. He is currently signed to EMI's sixstepsrecords .... So, when Churches hold hands and sing "How Great Is Our God" or "Indescribable" they sing music connected to John Lennon. Together they make/made people rich.

How can such Godly music live together with ungodly? It CAN'T!!!!!!!!!! How can such ungodly record labels be credited for spreading the gospel? They DON'T!!!!!!!!!

It's MONEY MAKING BUSINESS and so-called Churches are buying into it.

Makes me sick.

Provident Label Group is a standalone operating divisions of Sony Music Entertainment. http://providentpress.com/ shows some of their popular artist as Casting Crowns, Leeland, Third Day, Jars of Clay, Michael W. Smith .... and more. At the bottom of the website it states clearly "© 2010 Provident Label Group LLC, a unit of SONY MUSIC ENTERTAINMENT. All Rights Reserved."

I don't understand how any Church could use music published by Sony Music. You see, Sony also owns Columbia/Epic Label Group and some of their artist are listed as AC/DC, Aerosmith, Beastie Boys, Neil Diamond, The Rolling Stones .... and more.

Sparrow Records is a division of EMI. Sparrow Records currently has signed on Steven Curtis Chapman, Amy Grant, Bethany Dillon, Amy Grant, Matthew West ... and more.

I don't understand how any Church could use music published by EMI. You see, EMI also owns Capitol Music Group. Capital has on their roll Garth Brooks, The Beach Boys, Tina Turner and they distribute Apple Records (The Beatles) .... and more.

Fact is. Most Christian Pop musicians are making money for the WORLD.

Churches sing "Praise" music right? Ok. Who writes a bunch of it? One such guy would be Chris Tomlin. He is currently signed to EMI's sixstepsrecords ....

So, when Churches hold hands and sing "How Great Is Our God" or "Indescribable" they sing music connected to John Lennon. Together they make people rich.

How can such Godly music live together with ungodly?

I do believe I might look into that book. Thanks for the recommendation.

does rock music make you buy more?

I get so fed up with these stores that have to play loud rock music, especially when I look around and notice that most of the customers are older! Don't they know that rock music is a "downer", and not an "upper"? it seems that good marketing techniques would teach them that!

Again, I'm not involved with this situation, so my responses are based strictly on what you're telling me. Your father was asking to be a part of a church that doesn't agree with his background. IFB'ers don't see eye-to-eye with Free Will Baptists, and are diametrically opposed to Pentacostal teachings. Most IFB churches would argue that those types of "denominations" teach a different Christ than the One in the Bible. So, if your father claims salvation under those circumstances, there would be some questions from the IFB church regarding whether his salvation is true. That's what salvation hinges on - who you think Christ really is. If you believe in a "different" or "incorrect" Christ, then your salvation would be suspect.

Now, your father may be truly saved and has just gotten involved in denominations that are in error. That's between him and God. However, based on the "external proof" of what your father has been involved in, then the IFB church is questioning him and has that right. Baptism being a local church ordinance, the church (and the pastor as the shepherd of that church) will be held accountable to how they "did" church. Many churches are filled with professing Christians who will be surprised when left behind at the rapture. And it's each local church's responsibility to do everything possible to make sure all its members are true believers.

This may be a poor illustration, but the only one I can think of right now. A doctor completes medical school from the University of North Carolina and moves to Omaha, Nebraska, to start his practice (Why, I wouldn't know ). He has to get a Nebraska medical license first, despite graduating from one of the best medical schools in the United States. Just across the Missouri River is Council Bluffs, Iowa, considered part of the Omaha metropolitan area. If that doctor wants to open an office in Council Bluffs, he has to apply for an Iowa medical license.

Imagine his medical school graduation as a believer's salvation. The believer (doctor) wants to join a church, then he must be scripturally baptized (licensed) to join that church. If the believer moves on to another church (state), that church ensures the believer is saved and properly baptized (licensed) to join.

If your father is truly saved and the "external proof" satisfies the IFB church, then then the issue becomes one of authority. Do denominations founded by men, such as Pentecostals, Mormons, and yes, even Protestants, have scriptural authority to baptize? The majority of IFB churches would say no. IFB churches believe they are the closest to the actual church begun by Christ Himself, and the authority to baptize was given to true churches. Religions and denominations founded by men have usurped that authority from Christ. I'm not talking about apostolic succession, like the Roman Catholics teach. But IFB doctrine has been handed down since Christ, and the churches that have maintained that doctrine throughout history have the scriptural authority to baptize.

Look at it this way: Imagine a wire underneath a rug. Both ends of the wire are exposed at opposite sides of the rug. If you wiggle one end of the wire and the other end wiggles too, then it's safe to assume its the same wire, even though you can't see the entire wire. It's the same with Scriptural authority. The only authority the local church I pastor has is the authority given it by our sending church, which received its authority from its sending church, which ... I hope you get the picture.

To make a short answer even longer, your church prOBably doesn't recognize the scriptural authority of the church that baptized your father. Therefore, in your church's opinion, your father has not been properly baptized. If he wants to join the IFB church, then scriptural baptism is required and I'm sure they'll be more than happy to conduct it.

So, if that church believes your father has not been scripturally baptized, then they also believe he doesn't have the scriptural authority to baptize anyone else. Thus, the church believes your daughter's baptism is unscriptural.

Mitch

P.S., Actually, I'm somewhat surprised your church accepted you as a member if you don't believe in eternal security. I am making an assumption that your church teaches eternal security, as most IFB churches do. New members are usually required to agree with everything in the church's doctrinal statement before joining.

That can be a good idea. Scripture tells us to examine our faith, to make sure we KNOW. God has given us His Word so we can look for answers from the basic to the advanced.

Also, there are many here who would be willing to help answer your questions.

Yes, but...there is the prOBlem of some who baptize others putting forth wrong doctrine, wrong teaching, into the ears of those they baptize. They don't simply find out if they are biblically born again, understand what baptism is (and isn't), they go into teaching. If they are teaching unbiblically then it's possible the one being baptized has been misled and their baptism may not have actually been biblical.

Some teach all sorts of false doctrines before they baptize whether it be telling them baptism saves or is part of what saves them or that once baptized they must do good works to maintain their salvation, etc. If the one being baptized accepts these false teachings as part of their baptism then they are not partaking of a Scriptural baptism.

Always, always let the Holy Spirit be your guide and study the Word for yourself. Never just take man's word for anything. But I would recommend John Yates, Rowland Road Baptist Church, Monroe, LA. He's an excellent Bible teacher.

http://www.faithbibleinstitute.com/Faith_Bible_Institute/Home.html

Sometimes I feel that I need to go back to the basics and relearn everything .....

Thanks Guys! I looked around at a few other Christian forums, but so many of them seem to be an envirmonment of atheists looking for a fight or for people spreading misinformation. This place looks safe, so far!

What recommendation would you make for a solid Bible teacher? I listen/read J. Vernon McGee, Oliver B. Greene, J Bennet Collins, my pastor, Charles E. Fuller, Andrew Murray, Martyn Lloyd-Jones ...

I read my Bible also, but I need a teacher I can trust apart from the Holy Ghost inside me. Someone who won't guide me away from truth.

Who would you recommend that is solid and dependable?

Thank You.

Even a lost person can do good works. But with true salvation there will be an internal change; the external changes will be manifest because of that.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

#1. This man had a fear of God and God;s judgement.
#2. He realized that he was guilty and deserved judgement.
#3 He realized that God was righteous, holy, pure and just and he acknowledged Jesus as Lord and King.

Even though he could see that Jesus was hanging there in shame, a bloody gorey mess, the thief still recognized Jesus as the Eternal Lord. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit will reprove the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement and the Holy Spirit was clearly working here because the thief on the cross recognized all three of these things. As to repentence, the thief truly realized that he deserved what he was getting, and he turned to Jesus for mercy. He trusted Jesus as his only hope. Repentence is acknowledging what you are and who God is. It is to truly acknowledge that God is right and you are wrong. A person does not repent by simply "quitting" their sin; there has to be a fear of God and a turning to Jesus in faith, for mercy. It all has to be done in your heart.; there is no "works" involved. Do you want to have your sin and self...or have Jesus?

Part of your pastor's hesitancy may be that he doesn't want to offend you, but I'm more interested in why your father was called to preach "but not under IFB standards." There may be something else going on just under the radar that your pastor may not be at liberty to discuss with you.

When you joined your church, you agreed to submit to the authority of that church. And if you believe baptism is a local-church ordinance, as 99.99 percent of IFB'ers do, then each local church sets the guidelines. You would hope each local church would follow scripture regarding baptisms. But the church can deny your daughter's participation in the Lord's supper if they believe her baptism is invalid. Again, the Lord's Supper is a local church ordinance and each church can set the guidelines.

If its guidelines go against the Bible, then maybe you should break fellowship with the church. If it's a matter of the church authorizes only its pastor to perform baptisms, I'm not sure that qualifies as against the Bible. But whatever your church's guidelines are, you either need to submit to them or find another church.

BTW, the pastor's wife has no authority in this matter and shouldn't be making her feelings known to anyone else but her husband.

Mitch

I'm almost done reading the book titled "When God Is In It!" By: Evangelist J. Bennett Collins. It's a wonderful trip down memory lane for the writer and using humor, pathos, and pictures of the days of real revival it truly reveals how God worked in his life during the forties and fifties. He writes about the tent revivals with Dr. Oliver B. Greene and the impact they had in many towns. I live near the spot where Oliver Greene had his last revival meeting. I recommend it for anyone who might be interested in the history of fundamentalism in America. It's a good read and I can't put it down.

Here is a link where you can purchase this book:

http://shop.sermonandsongministries.org/product.sc?productId=101&categoryId=2

I decided to come back to this forum after other forums I am a member of just got to be too much. I need a refuge from the world!

We must repent and believe the gospel. We turn away from the old man and look to Christ trusting the gospel with a genuine heart. Anyone that removes repentance is honestly removing a vital part of salvation. Many today are told to just believe, but that is only half the picture. You could tell someone to believe a Chevy is a better car, and they might accept that as true, but they must turn away from their old Ford and start driving a Chevy to truly show they believe the car is better. Same with Jesus Christ. You can say Jesus Christ is the author of salvation, and know the facts, but until you walk away from the devils plan and turn toward the Masters plan you are only half way there. I am not talking about any "Lordship" salvation, clearly we will sin and make mistakes. But, we are saved from our sins and we can't let them be our lord and master anymore.

You see, it's child-like faith we must have as babes in Christ. Taking simple honest steps in OBedience for our Lord and Master Jesus Christ. Baptism is one of the first steps to show the world is old news and Jesus is now King of our Life! Reading the Bible with a real desire to learn. Church attendance. Slowly removing the old man and setting up a new man that is like our Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance never ends. It's needed in the beginning of salvation and needed every day in the believers life.

I have stated in past threads I believe one can neglect their faith and lose salvation. Perhaps I need to study that more, but clearly if one genuinely repents of their sin and turns to Christ they are now His! No power here on earth can remove you from Christ hand. AMEN! (the ability to give back your faith is under personal study now, I could be wrong.)

So, the Church today must preach repentance and stop giving the impression one can still be like the world and be a Christian. Salvation is much more than a cure from hell or sin in general. It is a change of heart and mind about the things of this world.

I could go on. But my point is clear I trust.

Please refer to my post #56, 'God's Child'. In Scripture, baptism is primarily a witness to the one baptised of the perfect cleansing of the conscience.

We presume your daughter has been baptised as a believer, in the name of the Trinity, confessing her faith in Jesus Christ, crucified & risen, as her Lord & Saviour.

She should therefore be welcomed at the communion table, & into church membership. It is hurtful to be rejected as a baptised believer when she should be welcomed with love as a new-born sister in Christ.

You church is being sectarian, & legalistic. Doing the act of baptist "right" should not be an issue. God is concerned with life & the spirit, not technicalities.