CPR

I respectfully disagree.

The question is not will it stop them or not. This isn't about changing them, trying to get them to stop, trying to appease them, trying to win their hearts and minds, or even (gag me) trying to discover why they hate us so much.

It's about taking an open and public stand against wickedness.

Should we not protest abortion clinics because the doctors will kill the babies no matter what?

Should we not protest a militant gay rally because the sodomites will continue in their depravity?

See my point? We're supposed to go against the grain of this world, regardless the outcome. Jeremiah never stopped preaching even though he never got a convert.

Like John pointed out, if you are going to judge what is extreme by the actions surrounding the people committing the wickedness, then burning a Koran in protest to a vile and wicked religion is very mild in comparison to chopping off Nick Berg's head with a dull machete and the MANY other atrocities they've committed.

Building a mosque on ground zero might be legal, but it's immoral and unethical and it's not a question of IF people should protest it, it's a matter of HOW they should.

What makes you think that non-fundamentalist Christians don't care when Christians are being persecuted? Most of us want mutual respect among all religions and abhor persecution in all its forms.

By the way, they're called Muslims not "Islam's".

'Move beyond fear': Planned Quran burning is religious stupidity
By Leo Frade, September 08, 2010

[Episcopal News Service] How can anyone think that an act of hate and religious fanaticism -- the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 -- can somehow be redeemed by an act of intolerance and religious stupidity?
I have been trying to decide whether Pastor Terry Jones of the Dove Center in Gainesville, who is planning to burn copies of the Quran on Sept. 11, has any idea of how much harm and persecution his action will bring upon Christians living around the world -- and specifically those living in countries with a majority Muslim population. I have traveled extensively in the Middle East, and I am quite familiar with the precarious situation of Christians in that area.

I can only appeal to him to desist from an action that will hurt his Christian brothers and sisters around the world; they are the ones who will suffer the consequences of his fanatical act.

As an American, I also appeal to his patriotism and concern for our U.S. troops. General David Petraeus, our commander in Afghanistan, has warned that this planned act of disrespect and destruction of the Muslim scriptures will both endanger our troops already in perilous situations and harm our relationship with those Muslim countries that are our sincere allies.

Every page of the Quran that burns will recruit to the ranks of Islamic extremists hundreds of irate Muslims, who will see in this action a confirmation of claims by Al Qaeda and the Taliban that Americans are engaged in our own jihad against the followers of Islam.

What would Jesus do? I am quite sure that burning the holy scriptures of another faith would never be his choice. Our Lord said from the cross where he died, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they are doing."

I would remind Pastor Jones that our Lord forgives what we find it impossible to forgive and challenges us to move beyond fear, suspicion and hatred to "love one another."

I want to assure the followers of Islam here and around the world that the planned actions of the Dove Center do not represent the true values and beliefs of the followers of Jesus Christ, who tells us that the greatest commandment is love.

-- The Rt. Rev. Leo Frade is bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Southeast Florida.

http://www.episcopalchurch.org/80050_124380_ENG_HTM.htm

Interesting...

I would say that Gen. Petraeus has guts. I would say my son has guts. I would say that others in the military with whom this issue has been discussed have guts...and they are ALL against this burning.

Yes, it will put the troops in MORE danger. And it will put Americans overseas in MORE danger. And it will put Americans here in America in MORE danger.

Tell me how this fits with what Christ said to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves? Tell me where this follows our injunction to win people to Christ because the LOVE of Christ constrains us? No, muslims aren't getting saved in droves, but you know what? There are some getting saved. Even if there weren't, this would still be wrong.

I am all in favor of wiping out the enemy - but that isn't what this is. This is simply a gesture, and not a very wise one, either.

Am I scared of them? No - I'm mad. And I wish we would just take care of them once and for all. But it isn't going to happen in this administration because this POTUS is uber sympathetic to them. Playing into their hands like this and giving cause for others to sympathize with the "peaceful" muslims is exactly what is going to happen here.

Personally, I think it takes guts to stand up and tell this pastor that he's nuts and shouldn't be doing this. And apparently it takes guts to say he's wrong even on a Christian forum.

BTW - since when do IFB consider pentecostal preachers who share their pulpits with their wives fundamentalist Christians?

Talk about taking leaps! NOBody said a word about anyone doing anything wrong because someone else did. What was put forth was a matter of comparison and contrast.

Now, when we get down to whether the burning of the Koran is wrong or right the question must be asked as to what is wrong with burning a book of wickedness which promotes a violent false relgion that leads folks away from Christ to a burning hell?

One might raise the issue of whether such should be done in public or private. From what I've seen of this from news clips, this Koran burning was specifically put forth publically to send a message that Christians and Americans are not afraid of "radical Muslims" or their false god. The pastor says they have been praying about this and believe they are following the Lords leading. I'm not in a position to know.

It's interesting that so many want to proclaim the "right" of Muslims to build a Mosque near ground zero in NY yet they want to deny this church their "right" to burn books they own on their own property.

Also interesting how many lift up libertarianism as wonderful, a view which says what this church plans to do is no one elses business, yet they want to tell this church they can't hold their event because of this, that or the other.

For those of you that think it's not going to make anything worse, I'm sure you know better than Gen. Petraeus.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

While this is true, I don't see that the Pastor and his Church getting ready to burn the Qurans is doing right. A few thoughts come to mind in this situation:

1. It is never right to do wrong to do right!

2. Even when your enemy does wrong, it doesn't give you the right to do wrong back!

3. My God is big enough to take care of Himself and will meet out justice in his time!

I don't know much about them, but I've heard some that hold to the Libertarian express that they're the party of free thinkers, and they have no moral restraint. And most of those who hold to that seem to be very worldly, and stand directly against the morals and principles God had proclaimed.

As said in another topic, Christians will yoke together with anyone.

I haven't the slightest idea why anyone would think that this is a tough call. It's a no brainer. Let's see, if this takes place troops will be in danger, and no one will be brought closer to Christ. In fact, people will be driven away from God. Does this serve to create peace or do any good? Absolutely not. I have no idea why anyone, let alone a Christian or an American, would condone this. It makes me sick.

I would regard the pastor with even more suspicion if he claims that God told him to do this. I highly doubt that God told him to do something that will put troops in danger, make people regard the US and Christianity with hatred and contempt and will not serve to bring people to God or to peace in any foreseeable way.

But what do I know? Just when I think I've heard everything... Guess some people can make anything seem reasonable to themselves.

I really hope I don't get attacked for this, I'm a little hesitant to even voice my opinion, but here goes . . . .

I just read this story on CNN, and I think they are going about this the wrong way. Interestingly, the name of their church incorporates "world outreach". This disrespectful show seems to belie their core purpose of reaching the world.

When Paul visited Athens, he didn't storm into their pagan temples and start burning their sacred scrolls and pulling down their idols (see Acts 17:16-34). He spoke the message of truth in an uncompromising way, but he did not, as it were, spit on their beliefs. Some people derided him and turned away from the message, but others invited him to tell them more about the Gospel.

It seems to me that this Florida church is being unnecessarily hostile and aggressive in their approach. I would be deeply offended if a mosque planned to burn Bibles. I'm afraid if this church goes forward with this, that just may happen (if not worse). I cannot imagine that a single Muslim is going to be attracted to the Gospel message by this book burning.

Laws by their very nature are imposing somebody's morality on others. Abortion changed from murder to a privacy issue, so society now accepts it. Tell a child whose parents were killed by a drunken driver that alcohol is a private matter. Sex outside marriage was outlawed in every state at one time; look at what "staying out of bedroom" has done to our society now.

Now, you may argue that drunkenness and sexual immorality are moral lapses of sinful man. And I would agree. But God established government to punish evil. Who defined evil? God did. God imposed His morality (His holiness) on the nation of Israel and on us as New Testament believers; granted as the Creator, it's His right to do so. But if God was libertarian as defined today, then He wouldn't care what the Israelites did, nor would He care enough to send His Son to the cross.

How is it incompatible?

I can see how people would confuse my personal liberty stand as saying to God, "this is my life and I'll do with it how I will". But I'm not saying that to God, I'm saying that to government. I can be a Christian and still accept secular minarchism as the most ideal form of government on this Earth.

Take homosexuality for instance. I believe the Bible says it is sin. I believe it is sin. I believe homosexuals are sinners. I believe it's immoral. I think it's sad when people allow themselves to be ruled by this sin. I think people should turn from their sin and look to God. But I don't feel government should force them to do that. Government should stay out of peoples lives. If other people are not being hurt, killed, having contracts violated, or having property invaded or taken from them because of homosexuality, then I believe it should be an issue of faith, not of government.

Take abortion as another example. I believe it's sin and immoral, it's sad, people should repent, etc.... But it's not just a personal issue of morality that is directly affects the individual having the abortion (as is the case of homosexuality). It's directly affecting the life of the child- IT'S MURDER! And I believe it's governments duty to protect the right to life. Many in the LP (I'm not a member) support abortion prOBably because they don't recognize life prior to birth, but there is the same division within the LP as there are in other parties. The question should be asked in all political parties "when does life begin?". If some libertarians (like myself and Dr. Paul) believe it begins at conception, then they will be against abortion (or more to the point, against murder).

Government is a tricky thing, and in my OBservation of it, I have found that when it tries to 'fix' things, it only makes them worse (and does so at great expense to the taxpayers). If government stuck to its basic responsibilities of enforcing contracts, protecting life and liberty, etc... I think we would all be better off. And I know that might sound scary to some people (the thought of a government that does not enforce personal morals). But let's be honest, there's no hope for anyone outside of Jesus Christ. Government certainly isn't going to save people or make them moral. But it sure does try to. It's just that government makes a very bad church. Historically, when it tries to be one, it only hurts liberty.

I specifically asked in my original post for this to just be a discussion of how everyone's church OBserves Communion, not an argument of what is the "right" way to do it. Thank you to everyone who shared, it was very interesting. However, I see that this is going in an unfortunate direction so I'm closing my own thread.

Please back your opinion up with Holy Scriptures from the Holy Bible.

Now According to the Holy Bible;

Lu 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Its done in remembrance of Jesus, and there is no grace nor anything within it, that is its symbolic.

Well, I'm not for going on with this thread. Its making me dizzy trying to read it and use the editor. There isn't any hypocricy in my posts, I think more is being read in them then should be.

I know Ron Paul pretty well. I voted for him in 1988, used to attend libertarian party meetings in two different cities, and gave an awful lot of money to him last election, and YES I went to his son's Rand Paul's meeting just last night. Seeing all that, I know there are saved people who follow him - maybe there shouldn't be!. I still help out as I feel appropiate DESPITE believing everything I said. I regret wasting as much of my God given talent as I did on that movement or type of it - but I still look in it to see what my pagan neighbors are doing - out of love. I'd be really careful on helping out too much, or it'll end up hurting your Christian goals.

What I did say is: - there are a lot - and I mean a LOT of new agers, occultists, atheists, etc following this man. I also said a couple of days ago it could be good fishing ground.

But politically, God will not bless this because the people doing it by and large are not saved. I had a huge discussion about this on one of their main forums two years ago, which is why I have so many documents about our founding fathers. The majority of them actually despise America's Christian foundings. This is suppose to help? I think not. John Hancock called for fasting and repentence all the time. THAT IS WHAT CAN HELP. That movement is leading people away from the only true source of government in the world. Jesus Christ who sits on his Father's throne.

Yes, his press secretary is a new age gnostic witch. Her last post on the subject was ironically "#666", and I kept it. This was in between the occult book wholesaler, and all the other reprOBates. This nation needs to repent and come to God - and that is what it needs politically too. And *this* isn't it.

FYI - the worldnetdaily link. I gave them the story which they printed. It was right after the other stuff, and I have yet to hear that Ron Paul knows that homosexuality is a sin. I gave them the link because this is a war, and when a leader is leading people astray and saying he doesn't know sodomy is a sin - that is antichrist. Maybe the man will repent, we war against principalities and powers. That is what I am OBjecting to - not the men, and not even the individual sin, but the spirit hovering over it - bitterness and not giving the glory to the Lord.

Methodist churches used to be solid on the Gospel but they really started going the wrong way badly in the 20th century. There are still a few that hold to the Gospel but most have watered it all down. Unfortunatly, the Methodist church I was in as a child/youth had already dropped the Gospel by that time. The same is true for the Methodist church Hillary Clinton attended as a youth too.

You are not disagreeing with me about whether your church is unbiblical or not, you are disagreeing with God. You are also speaking ill of God by saying you believe He wants you to attend and be yoked to that which He says is sin and something He commands us to separate from.

Again, it has nothing to do with "different denominations", it has to do with the Word of God. The same Word of God applies no matter the name of a church or its association with who or whatever. Any church, including the one you attend and the one I attend and every other church is either abiding in the Word or in rebellion against the Word. Unfortunately, the church you attend is in rebellion and the Word of God says it's sin to be yoked with such.

I'm sorry you are unwilling to trust Christ and separate yourself from a church yoked to sin and abominations. You are in my prayers.

There are some guys who believe in consubstantiation. I think that's where the bread and the grape juice don't actually become the body and blood, but somehow the essense of Christ mysteriously floats around them. Huh?

CPR,

Sorry but my son cut me off on my last post.

I grew up in a Methodist church and never once heard the Gospel, never once heard Christ was going to return, never heard of the Judgement to come. What I was taught was that if I was "good" I'd go to heaven, that the devil was everywhere trying to get us and that God was watching our every move, ready to hammer us if we were bad.

I was 18 before I ever heard the Gospel, and this was in an Assemblies of God church that my girlfriend talked me into attending for their night services. They were showing the "Thief in the Night" trilogy and all that was new to me and then the pastor spoke on this and of the only way we could be right with God, biblically saved and assured of eternity with Christ. It's just two or three weeks shy of that being 29 years ago.

Within a year or less that pastor moved on and they brought in a new pastor that totally changed that church. The new pastor and his wife were very Charismatic. Suddenly the emphasis went from leading folks to Christ and growing in Christ, to promoting speaking in tongues, concentrating on "gifts", and the preaching time was cut in half, drums and instruments were set up on the platform and loud, repetitive music, with "speaking in tongues" between songs was added, etc. Even though I was still young in Christ I could "hear" the Holy Ghost telling me to get out of there.

That was really discouraging and many folks that once seemed to be our friends wanted nothing to do with us because we wouldn't go along with the unbiblical aspects taking over the church.

Once I settled down and took all this to the Lord in prayer I received the help I needed. God sent a fine young Christian man into my life and he introduced me to a wonderful Baptist pastor. This pastor eventually baptized me and I was a member of that church for a long while until the devil destroyed that church as well. The church board ended up taking over the church, demanded the pastor OBey their will rather than God's and then fired him for not being willing to go against the Word of God.

More church searching and moves and then to where I'm at today. Then the little Baptist church here closed its doors when the pastor was called elsewhere. More church searching but thanks be to God, when we seek His will He is faithful to lead us to His remnant. This particular church is non-denominational and was formed as such in the 1800s so this isn't the modern sort of non-denom, and we've been here for years now.

All this to say that even though the devil tries to derail us, even though people fail us, even though so many bad things can, and sometimes do happen, God will faithfully guide is if we set our hearts to follow Him.

Once saved the devil knows he can't "unsave" us so his desire then is to sidetrack us. Get us in an unbiblical church, or to give up on church. Get us to seek answers outside God's Word; get us to follow our emotions, get our attention turned anywhere but upon following Christ. As long as the devil can keep us out of a biblical church, keep us from growing in Christ, keep us from following Christ, he can minimize or stifle our effectiveness for the Kingdom of God.

The answer to everything we face in life is in the Word of God. God will never leave us, never forsake us. His Word tells us that if we seek Him, He will be found; if we ask for wisdom He will grant it; if we diligently seek Him and His will in prayer He will answer us.

First we have to decide we are truly going to follow Christ no matter what. This means searching the Scriptures and OBeying Christ in all He commands. Christ will lead us to a biblically sound church; Christ will lead us to growth in abiding in Him; Christ will direct our paths for His glory and honour and for our ultimate good if we trust and OBey.

Outside of this we can wonder outside His will being ineffective for God's greater glory, becoming distraught or learning to be complacent and tolerate being comfortable rather than being biblical and find ourselves outside His realm of blessings.

God has such a greater purpose for our lives! Christ came to give us life, abundant life!!
If we will but submit to Him in all things the boundless grace of God and His blessings are open to us. We can have an awesome relationship with the Creator of all, we can be His effective servants and know the true joy of being his sons/daugthers following in His footsteps.

All the writers of the Declaration of Independence where Christians, 6-7 at least were professional preachers, a lot more where raised and taught by family members who were preachers,and the secretary of that congress who took all the notes and is also on the Declaration later used his writing skills to put out one of the most preminent OT NT bibles of that time (1800).

Also, most of the Constitutions of the Independent States made during 1776 onwards required you to be a Christian, including the one in Philedelphia which was signed by Benjamin Franklin as president, so you are completely wrong. You couldn't even hold office unless you were a Christian.

You're confusing "non-denominational", which the founders were, with "non Christian". I don't doubt by reading the approved and edited reading of history, you would come to that conclusion - but our greatest enemey right now is Marxists. I've actually read a lot of the original documents at that time, and did not use ones that modern historians put in front of me.

You couldn't hold office in most if not all the states if you were not Christian. The revolution wasn't a marxist one. In the words of Samuel Adams, their forebears overthrew the popery of religion, and can you now overthrow the popery of politics (divine rights of Kings).

It is not my intention to be defensive on this thread and I apologize if I have taken that tone.

I doubt many people remember from my introduction, but as young child I actually attended a Baptist church. In fact, I was baptized in a Baptist church. (Okay, you can pick your jaw up off the ground now. ) I grew up mostly in the Methodist church following that, and I began attending an Episcopal church sporadically in college. So I'm not coming at this from a place of inexperience. Most people in my family are either Baptist or Methodist.

Regardless, some of my defensiveness prOBably stems from the fact that I've been hurt before. It's not something that I talk about often because, to be honest, I'm still working it all out with some people who care about me. It's the reason I didn't go to church regularly for a few years. I never lost my faith (and of course God never lost me), but I did lose organized religion. I know this isn't what people like to hear, and that's why I don't tell people, but there are some people and churches out there, well meaning or not, that can be toxic to the cause of Christianity. I have had legitimate panic attacks from just being in a particular place or seeing certain people. So, there are reasons why I will not attend a particular type of church, at least not in the foreseeable future.

However, I think that I'm closer to God at this point in my life than I've been in a long time, or maybe ever. He knows where I need to be and that's what matters.

I was not really making that point to anyone in particular, I just wanted to say it, because the RCC believes that is part of salvation and some seem to think that they have the right to partake of the Lord's Supper in any church they set their foot in, and when the RCC withhold the Lord's Supper, of course they call it the Eucharist, from one of their members it has a very grave meaning to them.

Of course most of us Baptist knows it does not have an affect on ones salvation, or at least they should know it.

We call the Lord's Supper an ordnance, and let the RCC use the word, sacraments.

I'm sure glad God determines salvation and not some of his followers!

You know, I have chosen my denomination and my physical church because of where God has led me. I can worship in a meaningful way that I was never able to before in other churches. I'm also able to serve. There are so many wonderful Christian people who want to reach out and help others and make the world a better place in whatever way they can. I think that this is a very important part of church.

You don't have to agree with me and that's okay. However, to doubt the salvation or the desire to follow Christ of someone just because they do not attend the church that you think they should is very, very wrong. That kind of thinking and small mindedness drives people away from Christianity.

I'm going to regret getting involved, but I guess this was going to play out sooner or later...

What I find interesting is that Baptists and most other non-Catholics did not like the old Catholic church's insistence that their church was the only true one and the only one for true Christians or that could truly save you. However, don't tell a fundamentalist Baptist that you aren't a Baptist because then apparently you are likely not even saved. If you are saved, you are either backslidden, ignorant of God's Word, or not wanting to really follow Jesus. Yet in the same breath they'll tell you that the church doesn't save you. I agree, the church doesn't save you. However, it seems that they really think that the Baptist church is the only "right" one.

Now John, I know you're going to say that your church is technically non-denominational, but I'm pretty sure you would call yourself a Baptist and that your church operates just like a Baptist church save the name on the door.

All I'm saying is what my mom told me once when I was younger. God's box is a lot bigger than the box a lot of people try to make him fit in.

Me too. Yet they're welcome to do as they wish, although I think its wrong, I think the local church is responsible for guarding our Lord's Table.

Seems many look to the Lord's Supper as being something it is not. It has nothing to do with salvation, its a local church ordnance, to be OBserved by the local church and its members in remembrance of Jesus.

Lu 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.