Julie L

So' date=' Julie, if purgatory is for expiation of sins, what's the blood of Jesus for? Could you cite scripture that supports the idea of purgatory? I'd be really interested to read them, thanks!!![/quote']

This is a hard teaching to believe in if you don't first understand that God can forgive us our sins.... BUT still require punishment for those sins.
An example would be King David. In 2 Sam 12:13-14, where David tells Nathan he has sinned. And Nathan tells David that God has "put away his sin; and he shalt not die" BUT... then Nathan tells David that because of his sin, his son will have to die.
God forgave the guilt of David's sin, but He still required reparation in the form of suffering. And boy did David suffer.
(A man might forgive a teenager for breaking his window, but still insist that he repair the damages.) This is how Purgatory can be viewed. If we die in the perfect state of grace without any sin at all or reparation due to sin, then that person would go straight to paradise. IF a person died in the state of unrepented mortal (deadly) sin... they would go directly to Hell. But what about the person who is like David?
Someone who dies and they have repented of their sins, BUT they have not yet suffered for them?
That person does not merit hell... but they died before they could suffer for the sins they have committed. Purgatory is where that soul would go and they would suffer there until they have paid every penny. Then they would go to paradise.

Mt 12:32 "And whosoever speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speak against the Holy Ghost, is shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."
Jesus implies that "some" sins can actually be forgiven in the world to come. The example here is that if we speak a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven us, even in the world to come. Which world is that? Not Hell, no one is forgiven in Hell. And it can't be Paradise? There is nothing to be forgive of if we made it to paradise. So there must be a place where souls are at some point forgiven.

1 Cor 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
Again, this can not be Hell, no one can suffer in Hell and through this suffering then be SAVED. And this can not be Paradise, because no one suffers in Paradise. So there MUST be a place where souls suffer a loss, but are then saved.

1 Peter 3:18-20 & 1 Peter 4:6 talk about the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, and yet they were "saved" when Jesus preached to them.
Again, where are these "spirits"? Not in Hell, no one can be saved from Hell. And not in Paradise, they are already saved there. So there MUST be a place where souls were preached too by Jesus, and then Saved!

Here is a good example of prayer for the dead (souls in Purgatory) in 2 Maccabees 12:44-45 (this can be found in the Greek Septuagint: the Old Testament Scriptures that were in use when Jesus was preaching.)
"For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."
Praying for the dead presumes that there are souls in a middle state where atonement for sin can be made.

You transliterated what I said. I said church at Rome not church of Rome. I am saying there was NO church at Rome during Christ's ministry and that catholic was coined long before the church at Rome ever attepted to legitimize itself with "catholic."

Rejecting Satin and sin, and following God.

I can give you more than one.

In one instance, I said that the Catholic church teaches that Purgatory is for the expiation of sins and was told that they do not. When I cited the CCC, I was told that I was lying.

Then, I stated that the Cathoilc church declared us to be anathema because we hold to certain Biblical doctrines. They said the Cathoilc church did not declare us anathema. I cited the Council of Trent for them. Once again, I was told that I was lying.

now... suppose I repent?

After all, I'm Catholic. We teach that if you sin, any sin at all. You must repent of that sin immediately.

What killed the dinos? The same thing that killed the humans. The flood of Noah's day.

The Bible does not say the Behemoth's tail is as big as a cedar or even that it is LIKE a cedar.
It says it MOVETH like a cedar.

How does a cedar move? It swings back and forth in one place and in a vertical position.


Both elephants and hippos like to hang out around water where the "reeds and fens" are.
Both like to lay in the shade
Both eat grass
Both have internal testicles (stones wrapped together?)
Both are big enough and powerful enough to push through snares.
Both have a vertically hanging tail ,especially the elephant, that can swing back and forth.

MOVES....like a cedar

Please forgive me, ma'am, if I am making assumptions. If you are not one of the things listed below, merely disregard them:
According to God's Standard, the Ten Commandments, you are a lying, thieving, blasphemous, murdering adulterer at heart, and you're going to have to face a righteous God on Judgment Day. Based on these answers, what do you think your destiny is going to be? Heaven, or Hell, then the Lake of Fire?
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

Thanks!

Correct, ma'am.

Have you ever stolen anything?
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

Correct Julie, the term was in use very early but not by the church at Rome. Rome adopted "catholic" in an attempt to legitimize itself as "the one church" of all believers. The only thing is, by the time they adopted it, people were already grounded in doctrine and rejected this attempt. It's not Roman the papists chose to add, that was already given as with all the churches, by location. Also, in Jesus' catholic church there was no church at Rome. I don't think there is any need to beat this horse further, unless we were to examine the Roman Church in light of John's comments.

This creature sounds much mightier than a crocodile. There is also behemoth, as well.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

The Big Bang Theory isn't quite like that, Julie. :Green It supposedly only began a billions and billions of years process. Although, I have heard people say similar to what you did - God said Let there be, and bang - there it was!

As far as no humans with dinosaurs - there have been footprints found of them together...

God tells us in His Word that He created animals on day 5. Dinosaurs are animals. Ergo - they were there when Adam and Eve were. Dogs, cats, elephants, hippos, etc. were not mentioned in Genesis...just the serpent was, as far as land animals. Should we then assume they weren't there? No - God created all animals on the same day.

Leviathan is mentioned in Job. That is the oldest book written - leviathan is a dinosaur. It existed right along with Job.

So what does that make you?
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

I think I saw Kirk Cameron do this on TV years ago. But I'm not sure I remember how it ended.

So... Yes, I have told a lie.

I can't stop thinking about this topic. I don't believe in evolution, but that's primarily because the fossil record proves animals and plants did not evolve. So that's seems pretty straight forward there. (that's not to say plants and animals did not change to adapted, because they have, but that type of change is not the evolution that we are talking about.)

But, the fossil record does prove that many of thousands of years went by even before humans walked the earth.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if the bible does help us estimate that Adam and Eve were created 6,000 or so years ago... Then we have to add those years to all the years prior to the first human skeleton in the fossil record.

For instance, we don't hear about dinosaurs in Genesis (yet we know they existed), so it's safe to assume they were long gone before Adam and Eve were created. Then before the dinosaurs the fossil record shows that basic fish type animals lived on the earth for years, and before them double and single cell organisms also for thousands of years.
If a person were to add all that time up... it may be close a billion years or so?

I think the bible gives a good account for how long "humans" have been on the earth, but not how old our earth is.

I guess a person can say God created the earth with a fake fossil record... but why would he do that? If God does everything out of love for us, then faking a fossil record would be deceiving and not loving?

On a side note... I LOVE the big Bang theory!... it totally proves God created the universe out of nothing!!
It's still theory... but what would it prove??? Well, all it would prove is that God spoke the universe into existence and BANG... in 1.2 seconds the entire universe exploded into existence. Sounds like Genesis to me!

This may be of interest too...

I found a quote from Martin Luther himself that proves the belief in the Eucharist as the body & blood of Christ is as old as Christianity:

"of all the fathers, as many as you can name, not one has ever spoken about the sacrament as these fanatics do. None of them uses such an expression as, "Is is simply bread and wine," or "Christ's body and blood are not present." Yet this subject is so frequently discussed by them, it is impossible that they should not at some time have let slip such an expression as, "it is simply bread," or "Not that the body of Christ is physically present," or the like, since they are greatly concerned not to mislead the people; actually, they simply proceed to speak as if no one doubted that Christ's body and blood are present. Certainly among so many fathers and so many writings a negative argument should have turned up at least once, as happens in other articles; but actually they all stand uniformly and consistently on the affirmative side"

Luther's Works (St. Louis, MO: Concordia Publishing, 1961) Volume 37, 54.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here, ma'am. Could you please clarify?
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

On another message board, I've cited for the Catholics their own CCC, the Council of Trent, and other Catholic resources. Every time, I've been told that it's just something some "anti-Catholic" website made up.

Very interesting.

Ma'am, do you consider yourself to be a good person?
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

So can Science be trusted at all?

Here is the story of the Greatest Eucharistic Miracle:

This wondrous Event took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk's doubt about Jesus' Real Presence in the Eucharist.

During Holy Mass, after the two-fold consecration, the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine was changed into live Blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size.

The Host-Flesh, as can be very distinctly observed today, has the same dimensions as the large host used today in the Latin church; it is light brown and appears rose-colored when lighted from the back.

The Blood is coagulated and has an earthy color resembling the yellow of ochre.

Various ecclesiastical investigation ("Recognitions") were conducted since 1574.

In 1970-'71 and taken up again partly in 1981 there took place a scientific investigation by the most illustrious scientist Prof. Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy. He was assisted by Prof. Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena.

The analyses were conducted with absolute and unquestionable scientific precision and they were documented with a series of microscopic photographs.
These analyses sustained the following conclusions:

The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood.

The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.

The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart.

In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium.

The Flesh is a "HEART" complete in its essential structure.

The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood-type: AB (Blood-type identical to that which Prof. Baima Bollone uncovered in the Holy Shroud of Turin).

In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh normal blood.

In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.

The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.