Wilchbla

Every bit of God's glory has been earned by Him. You are incapable of willfullly loving or willfully glorifying the true God of the Bible until you realize what He has DONE for you and willfully trust Him as Savior. Predeternining people to hell for the glory of it is NOT the glory of the God of the Bible. End of story. There is no love in killing for pleasure. Sorry, wrong glory.

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Revelation 3:17

Well, at least she was honest. I'm not sure why she chewed us out though. This forum is one of the more friendlier forums. Try going over to Fighting Fundamentalist Forum and you'll see nasty people although most of the nasty people over there are NOT IFB.

Micro-evolution isn't the same as species variation. Micro-evolution says species evolve, on their own, over the course of generations, to become more suitable for survival. There is little difference between this and their concepts of macro-evolution.

Biblically speaking, there may be a variety of "kinds" but they are not the result of evolution, they are the result of what God created. Your illustrations of specialized breeding go along with this. These are specific works of man, using what God provided, to create varieties of "kinds".

Take the Liger for instance. In the wild tigers and lions don't mate. Even in captivity it's rare and in some of those rare cases zookeepers "helped" the process artificially in order to get a Liger. Likely as not, without man's interference, the tiger and lion would never mate, never bring about a variety known as the Liger. In the same way, without man's interference, it's likey the weiner dog would have never come about.

As you have rightly pointed out, even when it comes to breeding, whatever variety comes forth, it's of like "kind"; not something new, not something evolved.

The children were in the water with their parents getting rid of all evil influence, but that has no bearing on God's mercy & grace. With the children present when the flood came having lost their life in the judgment we can be assured God dealt with them justly.

Paul made it clear that sin is not imputed where there is no knowledge of it. Therefore infants go to heaven. When the age of accountability begins probably varies from individual to individual. With the loss of innocence occuring at younger and younger ages through mass media and sex education at young ages the age of accountability may be dropping.

Psalms 22 is primarily a prophetic passage of Christ and the verse you quote is pulled right out of the middle of prophecy. Much of the language is figurative, for example "I am a worm, and no man" does not mean a literal worm or maggot, it is expressive of a lowly despised position. Likewise the "bulls" "dogs" and so forth are metaphoric of strong and evil men. Also I am sure we can agree Christ, being God, was not exactly a normal baby any more than John the baptist being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb was normal.

A little context:

"Psalm 22:6-19 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly. Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help. Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me."

I think it is totally without scriptural basis to think that infants normally have a understanding of good and evil and can believe or reject God. As to if they go to hell, John 3:16-19 makes it pretty clear condemnation comes because of rejection of the light.

Paul made it clear that sin is not imputed where there is no knowledge of it. Therefore infants go to heaven. When the age of accountability begins probably varies from individual to individual. With the loss of innocence occuring at younger and younger ages through mass media and sex education at young ages the age of accountability may be dropping.

I have a coworker whose cousin died, and mailed himself to my co-worker. Upon instructions, the cousin was creamated, and my co-worker received the ashes in the mail one day with instructions to bury his ashes next to his mother in a graveyard not too far from my co-workers house. So this guy took a shovel, and buried the ashes as reqeusted!

I thought this was a great story. We all got a good laugh out of someone mailing himself to a family member after he died.

People die in earthquakes, autmobile accidents, explosions and other horrible ways in which bodies become mutilated. In a fire, people are sometimes burned to the extent that nothing is left but dental records to identify them. I think the whole point of it being a sin to "burn the bones of the King of Edom" was that it was done in hatred. A dead body being cremated with respect is an entirely different thing from intentionally mutilating or desecrating it out of vile hatred. I have no problem with anyone who chooses to be cremated. It's just not an essential doctrine of our faith. The Bible says our bodies go back to the dust ....and just what is a cremated body? Ashes....A tiny pile of minerals.....Dust. Think about this: All of those people incinerated to ashes in the twin towers and every single person who was vaporized in the city of Hiroshima will be resurrected for judgement by God one day; He knows where every single molecule of their bodies is right now and He isn't going to have one bit of trouble reassembling them. He will even have to put Bin Laden back together, because I suspect that the fishies have consumed him by now.

Having said that, when my Grandpa, my Grandma and my Dad all died, we took their embalmed bodies to a cemetery and we buried them with respect. If we had just taken a backhoe, dug out a hole and nonchalantly shoved them in to fall like some animal and covered them up, it would still be burying but it sure wouldn't have been done with love and respect. I 'm not going to condemn someone who wants their body to be burned to ashes and then treated with reverence and respect, Because it's the heart and attitude of the living that really matters

Hindu? What's that all about?
Simply burning up something, even a dead body, is not a ritual.Keep ritual and ceremony out of it and it's not evil. It's just a physical process. The body is simply matter and the fire is energy. Do you realize that the water you drink today was probagly someone's body fluids in the past? That salad you eat was probably cow manure a few weeks ago. Honestly, it's all just matter and energy. We buried my Dad 13 years ago. What's left of his matter is still in the grave, but HE ain't there no more. Would I be cremated? Probably not, nor would I do it to any of my loved ones, unless that was their wishes. I just am not going to judge anyone else for doing it becasue if you don't do it with pagan, ritualistic, evil intentions, it just ain't evil.
Burning the bones of the king of Edom was done in hatred...and that IS evil.
Show me a link to David Cloud's article, if you don't mind, and I will check it out.

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Revelation 3:17

The Way of Life Encyclopedia has a pretty good explanation of the "Kingdom of God"

Way of Life Encyclopedia
KINGDOM OF GOD (Excerpts)

The kingdom of God is God's rule in its various aspects over creation. The term is used in four ways:

The Universal Kingdom of God. This is God's rule over the entire universe, including rebellious men and angels (Psalms 29:10; 74:12; 92:8; 95:3; 135:5-6; 145:13; Daniel 4:34-35). Though God has allowed His creatures certain freedom to rebel against His authority for a time, He still sits as King over all. He overrules all movements and decisions according to His own purposes (Proverbs 16:9,33; Ephesians 1:9-11). The kingdom of God in this sense has no beginning and shall have no end; it is simply God's sovereign rule over His created universe.


The O.T. Kingdom of Israel (Deuteronomy 4:6-8; 7:6; 14:2). This was God's rule over His chosen people. Moses was the first leader (Acts 7:35-36). Joshua followed Moses. After Joshua's death, God appointed judges to lead His nation (Acts 13:20). Later He set up kings over Israel. Of these, He set apart David and promised to give the throne of Israel's kingdom to David's Seed, Jesus Christ (Acts 13:21-23; 2 Samuel 7:12-15). Because of Israel's rebellion, God took their kingdom away, and Israel was scattered throughout the world (Jeremiah 29:16-19). The Bible promises, though, that God will rebuild this kingdom in the future (Jeremiah 24:4-7; 30:7-11,18-24; 31:31-40; 32:37-44; 33:7-17; Hosea 3:4-5; Joel 3; Amos 9:8-15; Zechariah 14). The rebuilding of Israel's kingdom will follow a time of purging of Israel and worldwide judgment (Zechariah 13:8-14:21; Daniel 12:1-3).


The Spiritual Kingdom of God (Colossians 1:12-14). This is God's rule over those angels and men who have willingly submitted to His authority. It is the kingdom composed of all the redeemed (Ephesians 2:12-19; Hebrews 12:22-24). The moment a person is converted, he becomes a citizen of this spiritual kingdom (Colossians 1:12-13; Philippians 3:20-21).

The Future, Earthly Kingdom of Christ (Matthew 25:31; Isaiah 9:7; Ps 22:27-28,31; 102:12-22; Daniel 7:14-27). This kingdom is foretold in the Old and New Testaments and is the re-establishment of Israel's fallen kingdom (Psalm 72; Isaiah 11:16; 35; 60; Jeremiah 30; Daniel 7; Hosea 2:14-23; 3:4-5; 14:4-8; Joshua 2:18-3:17; Amos 9:11-15; Obadiah 1:21; Micah 2:12-13; 4; 5:4-15; 7:7-20; Zephaniah 3:9-20; Haggai 2:6-9; Zec 1:16-17; 2; 3:8-10; 8-10; 12-14; Malachi 3:1-6; 4:1-3). It is the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel and David (Jeremiah 23:5-8; 33:15-26). God promised that Jerusalem and Palestine would be the center of an eternal, worldwide kingdom. He promised David that his seed would rule over this kingdom (2 Samuel 7; Psalm 89:20-29). Jesus Christ is the Seed of David who has inherited these promises (Isaiah 9:6-7; Matthew 1:1). After God's purposes for this present age are fulfilled, Jesus Christ will return from Heaven and establish His throne on earth and the promises concerning the nation Israel will be literally fulfilled (Matthew 25:31; Romans 11:25-27). Most of the prophets spoke of this future kingdom, painting detailed portraits of its glory (Isaiah 35).

The Kingdom of God Cometh Not with Observation (Luke 17:20-21). This expression in the Gospel of Luke is addressed to the Pharisees. In interpreting this passage we must first note that there is a sense in which the kingdom of God WILL come with observation, as we have seen in these studies already (Luke 19:11-27; 2Timothy 4:1). In fact, Christ refers immediately to this observable coming of the kingdom in this very passage (verses 22-37). In what sense, then, is Christ saying that the kingdom of God "cometh NOT come with observation"? In what sense was it within the Pharisees?

(1) In the sense that it was already in their midst because Christ the King was present. I believe this is the primary interpretation of this passage. The kingdom of God is used repeatedly in this sense in the Gospels, as Christ was presenting Himself as the Messiah of Israel. "The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you" (Luke 10:9). Note the following passages carefully: (Luke 10:9,11; 11:20; 13:28-29; 14:15; 19:11; 21:31; 22:16,18; 23:51.

(2) In the sense that the kingdom of God has a spiritual aspect (Colossians 1:13). I am convinced that this is a very secondary application of this passage because (a) Christ was addressing the Pharisees, and the kingdom of God was NOT present spiritually within the Pharisees; ( b ) the context points to the future (verses 22-37); ( c ) the Bible focuses on the kingdom of God in its real, earthly sense.

He would be hosting another beer summit.

I think it would have happened anyway. The problems within the family stem from the pulpit, not American wars.

OK, I just watched a video on Youtube of "fire tunneling". It's basically an insane asylum off their meds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUYQUL2UCFQ

What sorts of Christians do he hob nob with?

Anyway, don't forget we are voting for a man to lead the country not pastor a church. Therefore I don't think our standards need to be as high. We are not going to find an KJV bible believing IFBer to be President. As long as he fulfulls Romans 13:1-4 that's all. I think on the most part Perry did a good job fulfilling his "ministry" in Texas.

What sorts of Christians do he hob nob with?

Anyway, don't forget we are voting for a man to lead the country not pastor a church. Therefore I don't think our standards need to be as high. We are not going to find an KJV bible believing IFBer to be President. As long as he fulfulls Romans 13:1-4 that's all. I think on the most part Perry did a good job fulfilling his "ministry" in Texas.

Two great hymns by John Newton.

Behold the Throne of Grace

Behold the throne of grace,
The promise calls us near,
There Jesus shows a smiling face
And waits to answer prayer.

That rich atoning blood,
Which sprinkled round we see,
Provides for those who come to God
An all prevailing plea.

My soul ask what thou wilt,
Thou canst not be too bold;
Since His own blood for thee He spilt,
What else can He withhold.

Beyond thy utmost wants
His love and pow’r can bless;
To praying souls He always grants,
More than they can express.

Since ’tis the Lord’s command,
My mouth I open wide;
Lord open Thou Thy bounteous hand,
That I may be supplied.

Thine image, Lord, bestow,
Thy presence and Thy love;
I ask to serve Thee here below,
And reign with Thee above.

Teach me to live by faith,
Conform my will to Thine;
Let me victorious be in death,
And then in glory shine.

If Thou these blessings give,
And wilt my portion be;
Cheerful the world’s poor toys I leave,
To them who know not Thee.


One There Is Above All Others


One there is, above all others,
Well deserves the name of Friend;
His is love beyond a brother’s,
Costly, free, and knows no end:
They who once His kindness prove,
Find it everlasting love!
They who once His kindness prove,
Find it everlasting love!

Which of all our friends to save us,
Could or would have shed their blood?
But our Jesus died to have us
Reconciled, in Him to God:
This was boundless love indeed!
Jesus is a Friend in need.
This was boundless love indeed!
Jesus is a Friend in need.

Men, when raised to lofty stations,
Often know their friends no more;
Slight and scorn their poor relations
Though they valued them before.
But our Savior always owns
Those whom He redeemed with groans.
But our Savior always owns
Those whom He redeened with groans.

When He lived on earth abasèd,
Friend of sinners was His name;
Now, above all glory raisèd,
He rejoices in the same:
Still He calls them brethren, friends,
And to all their wants attends.
Still He calls them brethren, friends,
And to all their wants attends.

Could we bear from one another,
What He daily bears from us?
Yet this glorious Friend and Brother,
Loves us though we treat Him thus:
Though for good we render ill,
He accounts us brethren still.
Though for good we render ill,
He accounts us brethren still.

O for grace our hearts to soften!
Teach us, Lord, at length to love;
We, alas! forget too often,
What a Friend we have above:
But when home our souls are brought,
We will love Thee as we ought.
But when home our souls are brought,
We will love Thee as we ought.

I don't recall hearing that the "Son of Man" returned in 70AD.

Bingo! This is what I was getting at a few posts ago but you put it in words better than I could. Predestination is what God purposed in his will but for someone to be predestined (for it to be actualized in their life) they still have to excercise freewill and place their faith in Christ as Savior. Then they become part of the purpose of God. This is what I meant when I said that predestination kicks in after a man gets saved. Foreknowledge doesn't effect this one way or another.

Very good post.

Kay, I would agree with you but even the smallest tat is viewed by men in a sexual way. Since you mentioned a "butterfly" or "heart" I assume you are talking of tattos on women. I'm sure most of the guys in here would agree with me and probably have heard other men mention this. It draws attention to that part of the body. As I said before, tats were originally worn by whores in Pauls day. Thus the modern day term "tramp stamp". I would assume that the whole thing of tattoos falls under I Tim. 2:9. The whole thing in America would fall under how you appear to others. Maybe in another country it wouldn't be a big deal but tattoos in America carry a certain image with them.

Tattoos are vain and are a waste of money that could go to more needful things. I worked with a guy that had $45,000 dollars worth of tattoos on his body. They also need to be reworked every five years or they'll end up looking like a giant birth "mark". They can also be addictive. Any unbeliever would probably question why you as a Christian are getting one. Especially an IFB Christian. The image that they have in America isn't too compatible with a IFB Christian. Women will put across the image of a tramp (tattoos were originally a mark worn by whores during Paul's day) and the men will look like jailbirds or biker. You'll see superstitious Catholics with them sometimes. But an IFB Christian? Of course, I'm not talking about tattoos you may have had before you got saved. An evangelist friend of mine had his removed and regretted it because of the scar it left. His brother keeped his but never bothered with them again. There are fading creams that can be used to remove them and even better than that there is a laser removal technique that won't leave any scars.

Tattoos are vain and are a waste of money that could go to more needful things. I worked with a guy that had $45,000 dollars worth of tattoos on his body. They also need to be reworked every five years or they'll end up looking like a giant birth "mark". They can also be addictive. Any unbeliever would probably question why you as a Christian are getting one. Especially an IFB Christian. The image that they have in America isn't too compatible with a IFB Christian. Women will put across the image of a tramp (tattoos were originally a mark worn by whores during Paul's day) and the men will look like jailbirds or biker. You'll see superstitious Catholics with them sometimes. But an IFB Christian? Of course, I'm not talking about tattoos you may have had before you got saved. An evangelist friend of mine had his removed and regretted it because of the scar it left. His brother keeped his but never bothered with them again. There are fading creams that can be used to remove them and even better than that there is a laser removal technique that won't leave any scars.

Predestination doesn't kick in until AFTER a man receives Christ of his own freewill. What God promised was that everyone who would except Christ off their own freewill (and everyone has a chance to do it) would be predestined to be as Christ. The fact that he foreknew who would or wouldn't doesn't change a thing.

It's not, "Let me now predestined those few that I know will except my Son before they are even born so they will get saved no matter what."

What it is is, "Let me now set up this promise of predestination so that those who except my Son of their own freewill after they are born can enter into that promise of predestination i made before I created the world."