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Hambone

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  1. Just curious. Do you call yourself an American?
  2. I would have tased him, too. He is an idiot. He should have simply complied with the requests of the officers. Everyone wants to jump on the officers. That's always the knee-jerk reaction. These officers don't know Anderson. Him not complying only raises their suspicion of the culprit (Anderson). They don't know that he wasn't hiding something, or trying to pull a fast one on them. I don't feel sorry for this idiot in the least.
  3. Had the church stood up to Hitler, it would have probably met the same fate as many Jews did. There was no strong Christian presence in Germany. That is why Hitler came into power. The church presence that was there had lost its savor, very much like the church we have in the US today. I can name at least 100 people I personally know that didn't vote and call themselves born again Christians. Jesus Christ paid taxes to the Roman Government. Did that make him guilty of the misdeeds committed by the Roman Government? Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's... If Christ was guilty of lawbreaking, He would not have risen, and we would all still be hopelessly lost. As far as the government being representative of the people....that is a joke. This administration and the last does/did not represent the will of the people. While the current administration has a high approval rating, the vast majority of Americans disagree with most of the policies he has pushed and aims to push through. The people only matter at election time to our government. In between, we might as well be Rome.
  4. Yes. You should. Until the government asks you to commit genocide, an abortion, or any other immoral act, you must obey tax laws and other laws.
  5. Revelation 4:1 and its relation to the rapture is a theory. I'm assuming (you know what they say about assuming) that you are of the belief that after this the word "church" is not used, and that means something. In my opinion, it means no more than the fact that the word church isn't used in Rev 4-22. If you were to apply this 'theory' to the Gospel of John, I guess you could say that nothing in the Gospel of John applies to the Church.
  6. Here: It is assumed by pretribulationists that the church is not present on earth during the events spoken of in the majority of the book of Revelation. This thinking is based primarily on the absence of the word "church" from Revelation 3:22 to Revelation 20:16. If the "church" is not mentioned, it is concluded, she must have been raptured prior to the events written about. Further, it is assumed that the invitation to the apostle John in Revelation 4:1 to "come up hither" is a picture of the rapture of the church preceding the events of the 70th week. It is important to examine these assumptions because they clearly attempt to place the rescue of the righteous (the rapture) before Daniel's 70th week and not after. If that is so, it should be clearly taught in Scripture. For several compelling reasons, it is a false conclusion to assume that the church will be raptured before the 70th week of Daniel (and for that reason is not mentioned between chapters 4 and 20): 1. The plain teaching of Scripture. Jesus, in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:3-31), outlines the sequence of events in the last days relative to the church. Verses 3-14 parallel Revelation chapter 6 and depict those events from the beginning of the 70th week to the rapture. Then, in verses 15-28, He focuses on the middle time period of that future week (the final 7 years) and emphasizes two key events: (a) a time of great persecution, and ( the "cut[ting] short" of "those days" of persecution for "the sake of the elect". Finally, in verses 29-31, He highlights what it is that will "cut short" that persecution, the rescue of the elect (the rapture). Paul echoes this same teaching in his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians 2:1-12: (a) the apostasy comes first, ( the revealing of the man of lawlessness, © the "challenge" to all who will not bow down to him and worship him "as being God", and (d) the coming of the Lord to "gather together" believers unto Himself. In Revelation 6-8, we have the same sequence repeated: (a) the 70th week begins, ( the pressure builds [seals 1-3], © the midpoint [seals 4-5] and apex of the persecution (against the "saints") arrives, (d) the "cut[ting] short" of that persecution with the same cosmic announcement [seal 6] as Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:29-31 followed by the rapture of the saints (Revelation 7:9ff). There is absolutely no teaching either by hint or by direct instruction that the church will not be present during the 70th week of Daniel. 2. The recipients of the book of Revelation. In Revelation 1:1 we read: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His servants,..." In Revelation 22:6, we read: "the Lord,... God... sent His angel to show to His servants..." Eight times in the book of Revelation, we encounter the reference "servant". This special term is applicable in the New Testament to the apostle John, Paul, and Timothy. It is a word that has reference to all true believers as opposed to "tares", "darnel", or look-alikes. What does this mean? By writing the book of Revelation to the servants, Jesus is clearly focusing not on the church in general, but faithful servants. They are to know what will transpire during that climactic era of history. Why? Perhaps to avoid unnecessary exposure to the evil empire of Antichrist. Perhaps to be able to assist struggling believers who did not prepare themselves when they should have. Perhaps to be able to effectively serve the Lord in some capacity with strength during those challenging days. Only God fully knows. We are made to understand that the church in general will, for the most part, be a compromising body at the time of the end. When Jesus addresses the seven churches in Revelation, His primary appeal is a call to repentance. Each of those churches is in one or more compromising situations and needs to change their spiritual condition if they are to be overcomers. The clear desire of Christ is that the individuals in each of those churches be victorious rather than suffer the consequences. It's the church in general that will not know what is happening when the end-time events unfold and in chapter 6:7-11 and chapters 12 and 13, we see that they pay a high price for their unpreparedness. 3. The use of "saint"(s) in the New Testament. The New Testament uses the term "saint" some 59 times. Virtually every reference clearly indicates it means a true believer in Christ. Link that with the conspicuous absence of any reference in the major eschatological works of the Bible that supposedly teach some sort of "revival" during the 70th week of Daniel. The fact is, the repeated reference of mankind in Revelation during this time is that they "did not repent" (cf. Rev. 9:20-21; 16:9,11). When the persecution begins at the midpoint, that experience won't be the most conducive means of seeing people come to Christ in great numbers. Who then are these saints? Are they believers who come to Christ after the beginning of the 70th week? Yes and no. Certainly it must be acknowledged that there will be some who come to Christ once the 70th week begins. But are those potentially trickling numbers worthy of a worldwide vendetta by Antichrist? Hardly! No, there must be a significant enough body of "saints" still present when Antichrist reveals himself to warrant his widespread wrath. The great multitude in Revelation 7 speaks to that clear reality. 4. The misrepresentation of John being the church. It is said that the church is not present during the events of Revelation because in chapter 4:1, John is called to "come up hither". John is said to be a picture of the church, and therefore it (the church) is in heaven during the days of the 70th week of Daniel. But is that a valid inference? Nowhere in all of the New Testament is there warrant to apply the understanding that John represents the church in Rev. 4:1. The context clearly implies that "John" refers to... John, and no one else. He is simply given a heavenly perspective of what is going on behind the visible world and what will take place during the last days. Nothing else. To say otherwise is to grasp at straws to try to support a hollow argument. 5. The argument from silence. It is maintained that since the word "church" isn't used again from 3:22 until 22:6, she is absent from the events unfolding during that time period. That's an argument from silence. If we apply that same argument to the gospel of John, we have to conclude that the gospel of John isn't for the church because the word church isn't even mentioned in all of its chapters. Can that be true? The overwhelming evidence is that the church is indeed present during the 70th week of Daniel regardless of whether the word is used or not. What one believes must be squarely built on what the Bible clearly says, not on what we might like it to say for whatever reason. What we believe about the last days will have tremendous implications for our lives should we enter those days. Let us be Bereans, searching to see if these things are so. (Acts 17:11) The Berean spirit of the Baptist Church (IFB) is not alive. We will attack other people's beliefs in a heartbeat, and rightfully so in most cases; but we have a real problem being critical of ourselves and what we have been taught. As I have already said, I was a pre-tribber through and through because that is how I was raised, what I was taught, and I took what many great preachers taught me at face value without researching the Bible myself (as the Bereans did). As I grew in the Lord and my Christian walk, the pre-tribulational rapture just didn't sit well. I judge everything as,"Am I as sure about this as I am my very salvation?" I could not say with the same amount of absolute certainty that I believed the PTR to be correct. After years of reading, research, and travelling I have come to doubt the pre-trib view, and am quite sure that we will in fact be present during the tribulation. Also, as I have said, this is not a salvation issue. If we are raptured (and I'm wrong) before the tribulation, GREAT!!!! My salvation is in Christ, not whether I'm a pre/post-tribber. However, if I am correct, I pity those who will not be prepared--especially those pastors that will be hunted down for answers as to why we are still here......I have learned to err on the side of caution.
  7. Revelation 4:1 and its relation to the rapture is a theory. I'm assuming (you know what they say about assuming) that you are of the belief that after this the word "church" is not used, and that means something. In my opinion, it means no more than the fact that the word church isn't used in Rev 4-22. If you were to apply this 'theory' to the Gospel of John, I guess you could say that nothing in the Gospel of John applies to the Church.
  8. KJVO.... Let's set one thing straight. There is only one Bible for the English speaking people of the world: the KJV. If they speak German and use a German Bible, what is the problem? While their beliefs are false, I don't believe their use of the german Bible is an issue. And if they believe they have the best German translation, that is up to them.
  9. I personally don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. That is my conviction from my studies. I don't belive the Bible supports it. I can provide my reasoning (and I have on this forum), but I figure if I'm wrong--yipee! I'll be raptured, since my rapture is based on my salvation, not my belief in the pre-trib rapture. But, if I am right, I believe there will be a great upheaval in the church. You are talking millions of Christians who figured they had a free "get out of tribulation" card coming to the preachers and wanting answers! The belief is very much an American belief. Most Chinese and North Korean Christians don't believe in a pre-trib rapture because of the things they've gone through, and the fact that God doesn't provide "get out of tribulation" card often. People like to compare the rapture to Noah, but Noah wasn't escaping tribulation--he was escaping destruction, which is exactly what believer will be escaping at the last trump (which happens at the end of the tribulation, by the way). Furthermore, the pre-tribulation rapture is a very new belief. There are no records prior to the 1800s of any of our church "fathers" preaching pre-trib. Most people will jump on this and say Paul did--but I use the exact same verses to support my views. Also, IF Paul had taught this, I think it would have been mentioned at one time or another during the 1800 years between Paul and the time it became popular. I am a hard core IFB, don't get me wrong, but the more I study the subject, the more I am convinced I'm correct. I believe the Baptist Church is stuck in a paradigm on this subject--but it is still my church.
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