Bro.Johnny Mac

Right, 1 Thess. 4:13-18 is when Jesus comes for His own, he never touched this earth, that comes later. But it seems we differ, this take place before the tribulations.

The rapture comes before the tribulation,the second coming where Jesus comes to rule and reign happens at the end of the tribulation.My position is a pre-trib rapture and a pre-millenial Kingdom(Jesus comes physically at the end of the tribulation and before the thousand year kingdom age begins).

I hate to say it, but I do not think you and I are speaking about the same thing. Does the bolded part mean you preach 6 different topical sermons each week? If so, then there is no way you are doing them justice. A typical exegetical sermon should take 15-20 hours a week to prep. (That figure comes from some well known pastors.) To do 6 of those means you would need 90-120 hours a week. I doubt that is happening. This is also why many pastors preach verse by verse. You can shed some of those hours if last week's study gave you the context for this week's sermon. It also helps the congregation because you do not have to explain the context (they heard it last week). It always bothered me that when I preached, it was just once every now and then. It forced me to spend a lot of time on context each time I did.

Also, the application of that sermon is, uhh, interesting to say the least. You lost me in all the various ways you are applying it to them, but that sermon sounds like a lot of allegory, and not a whole lot of the text. I am curious what you mean by "I will expound the entire chapter,and preach it in context,". Narrative passages you can cover more ground, but that story in scripture holds a lot of fascinating characteristcs of God as well as his servant. Its an awful lot for one sermon, and IMO, the main purpose of that passage is not to allegorize it to our lives ("the battlefield for our soul").

I may sound harsh, but as you are a proclaimed preacher, I think I need to be blunt. Handling the Word of God with care is the most important thing a preacher can do.

A note to everyone: If you church has one pastor and he is expected to preach a sermon Son morning, evening and Wednesday night, that is too much. One, maybe 2 sermons is it. Make Wednesday an actual prayer meeting instead of preaching service. Pastors either burn out, or stop studying when they have that much on their plate (not to mention the churches that expect the pastor to visit every sick person, every shut-in, do visitation, run the church office, and everything else).

I said later in the post that I actually preach two different sermons in a week. The rest are soulwinning.

I'm used to blunt -- no offense taken. Preachers are used to it, deserved or not.

The whole Bible is about Jesus. He said so Himself. You can find many scriptures that can relate to Jesus and Salvation.

1 Sam 17 is no different. It's very clear that there is a battle going on for every man's soul, just as there is a battle going on in 1 Sam 17. David stepped up to be victorious against Isreal's enemy. Jesus has defeated our enemy (sin) as well. I'm sure you understand this ... I was very excited about this sermon and I was opening up to the board about what I was feeling. I won't make that mistake again. Preachers need thick skin, but it still hurts to be criticized when you are hoping others will take joy and pleasure in something that you are doing for the Lord. I was hoping that the board would share in my joy about preaching the gospel ... I guess I need thicker skin, so I'm sorry if I come off wimpy by being disappointed.

It doesn't take 40 hrs of "prep" to preach the gospel, no matter what the text is.

You didn't hear the entire sermon because it's not complete, but if you can't see types in David's life referring to Jesus and salvation, I believe you are mistaken. I do take my calling seriously. I'm not sure what gave you the impression I don't. I am ordained, so I'm not sure what you meant by "proclaimed" preacher. That sounds as if you meant I am not called and I made myself a preacher.

I am glad that you have concern for God's word. So do I. I hope you understand this, if not, then what can I do? I know that I handle God's word with the utmost of care, not to please others, but to please my Saviour.

It should be said that there is nothing wrong with either styles of preaching, topical or exegetical (I'm with Jerry in that I have not heard of Theological preaching). However, done right, exegetical is easier. Done poorly, topical is easier. Essentially to do a topical sermon, you have to study each passage on a topic exegetically, and then build a sermon around that study. Unfortunately, the vast majority of topical sermons skip the exegetical study of the passages.

I remember the pastor of my church growing up starting Sunday's sermon on Saturday afternoon. There is no way to do a good study on one passage in an afternoon. Needless to day, we had many topical sermons.

Agreed...Expository preaching IMO is the easiest as far as getting prepared for the sermon.You read it,and tell what it means,pretty simple.If you undersatnd the Bile in the correct way,that its a literal book in most cases,and when symbols are used,the bile interpits itself in almost all passages concerning verses of a sybolic nature.

To preach a topical sermon(the correct way as Dwayner ponted out) takes more preperation time,but IMO is very enjoyable.I preach about 6 times a week and a preach a topical sermon every time I preach.God has called me to be an evangelist,so of course my topic is always salvation.I preach at jails also,so I am not a pastor(was an interum pastor for about 6 month a few years back).A church needs both types of preaching IMO to be edified in the proper way.

It really is challenging and enjoyable to dig into the scriptures and different passages of scripture to preach the same topic,salvation.I have two jails where I actually stand in front of prisoners and preach.The other jails are much smaller,so it's more soulwinning than preaching because I talk to anywhere from one to about six prisoners at the smaller jails.I like this also because it gives me a chance to talk with them and spend more one on one time with them,whuch is very enjoyable.My point is(finally :lol ) is that to preach the same topic two times a week takes alot of study time.I always preach different semons also,but with the same topic.

Right now I am working on a sermon that uses 1 Sam 17 (david vs. Goliath) to preach the gospel.
Briefly,I will give a quick sketch of the sermon...
I will expound the entire chapter,and preach it in context,but relate it all to them and the gospel..
Isreal will represent them and I will speak about the Phillistines being the enemy of Isreal,but I wont mention untill the end of the sermon who the enemy is into relation to them..
The balltle field I will relate to them as being life,because its a battlefield for their soul..

I will preach about david being a champion for Isreal..and tell them we need a champion..

Anyway,toward the end of the sermon,I will relate Isreal to them and relate the phillistines as the enemy,and the enemy is..

also them.Because they are sinners and that sin seperates us from God ect...and use this to preach about sin and judgement, and we also need a champion to defeat our enemy(our sin) because we can never defeat this enemy..and then preach the death burrial and reserrection..

I do sermons like this twice a week,and I love it!The preaparing of the sermon is as enjoyable as preaching it IMO,well in my case its not always fun to tell folks in jail they are hell bound sinners because sometimes they dont take it well and lets just say they are not afraid to tell me what they think .I wish I had a dollar for every time I have been threatened,but thats another story.

As a church member,I need both types to grow in the Lord and I am blessed to attend a church where both are done in a biblical way..

I dont think 1Thess.4:13-18 is talking about Jesus coming to rule and reign as King,this passage is not

talking about the thousand year reign.Jesus comes in the clouds to catch away the believers,and he

brings with him the departed souls who are in Christ. The appearing at the end of the tribulation,Jesus comes to earth,at the

catching away,he comes in the clouds,they are not the same event.Several other verses teach that this event happens before the tribulation.That is the plain teaching and literal interpitation.

Agreed,I think means that the saved souls of the believers in heaven will come with Jesus at the rapture ,and
they will recieve their new bodies with the rest of us who are living(hopefully!) at His return.
What a glorious day that will be!

Here's an example of where I believe preachers should confront the politics/politicians of our day.

President Bush has stated on several occasions that Islam and Christianity are equal. He has stated that Muslims and Christians pray to the same God. He has declared that all religions pray to the same God and that all religions lead to heaven.

I believe it's the duty of preachers to confront such lies so there is no doubt in the mind of his hearers.

Does this require the preacher to choose a politician to endorse from the pulpit? No. Does this require the preacher to speak all manner of ill against the president? No.

However, the preacher has a duty to make sure his listeners know truth from error. Too many professing Christians today blindly follow and support any politician calling themselves Republican. Christians should be much more discerning and preachers should help in this.

This doesn't mean a preacher has to pick a party or candidate to endorse nor do they need to bash anyone.

Candidates that espouse unbiblical/ungodly positions should be exposed. If politician Jeff supports abortion on demand, the pastor should make sure his listeners know this so they may see the light.

This doesn't require an entire sermon on politics or politician Jeff. A preacher can work a line or a few lines right into the midst of most any sermon in order to shine the light of truth upon the matter.

I realize these are rather simplistic examples, but really it doesn't have to be any more complicated than this.

I don't think anyone here is advocating that preachers spend their time preaching on politics or spending hours and days supporting or working against any particular politician or political issue. Even so, the shining the light of truth on such matters should not go undone.

I agree,what your talking about is preachers preaching against sin,no matter where it is.Preaching on issues that effect us is biblical.It stops being biblical when preachers preach issues for a political cause and not the cause of Christ.

I did not say that queers run America because you won't preach politics. Don't twist my words please.

I did say clearly enough, that if I do speak against a political party or polititian I am not shirking my duty at all as a pastor.

A born again America is no guarantee that all will be well in the land of freedom. Just a simple look at any local church will demostrate that folks be they saved or not are still subject to Adam having free reign in their lives. Your argument is based upon a fallacy.

If you voted against congressman who supported the queers, the abortion clinics and all other forms of legislated wickedness, you would have plenty of time left for discipling, soul winning etc.

The Lord did not tell us to opt out of our society, but to influence it. We are a light on a hill not to be placed under a bushel. Saying I won't tell my congregation that Huckabee (for example) is a liberal anti christian law maker pretending to be a conservative is ridiculous. Why wouldn't you tell them?

God bless,

Calvary

I wasn't twisting your words. I was making a statement in the form of a question because I wasn't sure of your position.No deceit was involved. I'm sorry if it sounded that way. My apologies.

I will keep preaching agianst sin and preaching the gospel. That is what will influence America, not a political party or govenment.

I don't think preaching against sin and preaching the gospel is opting out of society. I know that God changes hearts through His word and I know government will never do that. That's hardly opting out. That's doing what God tells the church to do.

Jesus told us to be light and salt. That was for saved people, not the government. Jesus is the answer, not a better form of a manmade government. I don't look for politicians to do what only God can do.

Is it a fallacy that Jesus and the apostles lived in a society that did not give much freedom to them, but they knew the answer wasn't a manmade government.They lived under the most ungodly government and culture the world has ever seen. The early church lived in a society that jailed them and put them to death for spreading the gospel. They didn't waste time arguing politics because they knew that Jesus was the answer, not Ceasar. They managed to see their culture change and see untold numbers of sinners get saved because they were obeying the great comission not because they went around preaching aginst Ceasar. That's not fallacy, that's Bible. So my Bible tells me that preaching aginst sin and preaching the cross is the biblical thing to do. They saw things change because they were living holy, living for the Lord, and spreading the gospel. That's the biblical pattern.

The apostles turned the known world on its ear and saw great change for the better, and it wasn't because they were preaching politics -- it was because they were preaching Jesus. I'll trust Jesus to change things through his preached word. You can trust politicians if you like, but I know that they will fail. But Jesus never does. That is not fallacy, but truth.


I feel quite comfortable in the fact that I am preaching against sin and preaching Jesus, and trusting in Him, because only Jesus can cure the problem this country has -- sin.

Its funny how cults will use the verses that point to Jesus' humanity(incarnation) but ignore the ones that
state that he is also God.

Many verses state the fact that Jesus is God.Here are two who are sometimes overlooked...

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith,Thy throne O God,is for ever"...Thats the Father calling Jesus God...

Revelation 1:6 "And he hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father" Again...the word calls Jesus God..

Those who dont know who Jesus is will die in their sin John 8:24 "for if ye believe not that I am he ye shall die in your sins.. This verse is a warning to all who refuse to believe in who Jesus is and always was,God himself.

Refusing to believe the Bible's testimony that Jesus is God,will result in hell fire forever, Jesus will tell that person"depart from me I never knew you",If you dont know who Jesus is you can never put your faith in him.If you believe that Jesus is not God,you are worshiping an idol and not the Son of God.

It should be pointed out that the millitary(as far as I know) are not accused of water borading.
From what I have seen its the CIA that are practicing this and not the soldiers.
It should also be pointed out that none of the people who were water boarded were soldiers either under Geneva convention rules.

I dont believe the US should use torture end of story.I personaly am against water boarding.Then again some politicians say that playing loud music,sleep deprivation and not giving them a good bed is torture.Do i agree with that? No.

Mabey we as a nation should list specific ways that our guys can get information,and come up with a list of what is and isnt torture.But we also know that politicians are the law makers and not many of them would have the guts to make these tough desicions.

I think that what is and isnt torture should be made into law,so there is no ambiguity about what is allowed and what isnt.

[quote="Calvary"]You're moving this thread into an arena that it wasn't talking about. The position of a pastor and his political convictions should be mentioned from a pulpit. To take issue with a platform of a politician is certainly no cause for alarm nor is it shirking his duty to preach against sin.

The point of this talk has been that Christians opting out of politics is not an issue of church and state seperation. I am a Christian, be it as a pastor or as a "lay person" my voice should be heard in the political process. The pulpit of America has been silenced by an indifferent, almost an apethetic attitude of defeat as if it is not my place to say enough is enough.

Queers run America in a large part because Christianity in America has gone home and shut the door content to merely complain and do nothing because somewhere along the line they were convinced that our job is to simply pine away while praying about it.
When I was a boy my mother would shelter my eyes (literally) from an effiminate man and turn us away. Today many main line denominations defend the sick practice and denounce preachers that would stand against such perverseness.

Your position Zeal, tired, is part of the reason America is what it is.

http://books.google.com/books?id=5FidNi ... #PPA103,M1

Read this book.

God bless,

Calvary[/quote]


I disagree,the reason why there is sin in our country is not because preachers dont preach enough about politics. You mention sodomites run America because preachers like Zealy and myself dont tell people who to vote for?
I would again disagree.Preachers who preach politics have in large part hurt the cause of Christ.
Lets look at a few preachers that we all know, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton,have their political preaching helped the cause of Christ?
Or mabey they dont count because they arent conservative?
Yes they are liberal and I disagree with everything that they stand for.Why?Because they are not right doctrinaly on alot of things but this is their main problem,they preach a SOCIAL GOSPEL.
This is something that IFB preachers have always preached against.Why?
Because they looked for the government to change America and not Jesus.Since the SBC and other conservative preachers have preached politics instead of the cross,they have fallen into the same trap as the liberal preachers did,they look for government to solve problems that only Jesus can.They also preach a social gospel,but theirs just happens to republicans changing things and not democrats changing things.
Should preachers preach against abortion,sodomite unions,sodomy,fornication,false religions,lying,cheating,stealing,drugs,booze,gangs,adultery,murder,gambling..yep and all of these sins have been made into political issues at one time or another.The aswer to these problems is not Ron Paul or Hillary Clinton,the answer is Jesus.

When preachers preach for the cause of politics and not Jesus they are going aginst the word of God.The mission we all have as saved people is to live for Christ and witness for Christ..
Making sure a conservative president gets elected,so he can nominate some judge who may or may not send abortion rights back to the States should not be our main objective,because at the root of the abortion problem is not liberal judges but sin.We need to be reaching the lost and making disciples of lost teenagers,unwed mothers,politicians and abortion doctors.The answer for all that ails this country of ours is not who our next president will be,the answer is Jesus.
A liberal nor conservative government has ever changed a heart,but we know Jesus does.
I do think Christians should vote,know the issues ect.....

Let me put it this way,if the folks Im preaching to dont know that sodomite unions,abortion,gambling ect..are wrong then I have failed as a preacher.
If a preacher preaches the entire counsel of God the way he should,he shouldnt have to tell people who to vote for,they will know who stands on Godly standards and vote accordingly. :2cents

[quote="zealyouthguy"]Cough up some proof that they preached politics from the pulpit.

Because that's what the whole statement that I made is based on... and you all have wandered left, right, and all around. Creating straw men, knocking them down, tilting at windmills.

I have repeatedly posted quotes about the beliefs of early Baptists. Show me them endorsing a candidate from their pulpit.

Lest you forget:

[quote]I disagree about the politics, I'm of the opinion that it's because of the lack of pulpits telling the congregations about the politicians and gov't that they (gov't) have been allowed to reduce the moral standard in this country to such a low level.

And historically some baptists have been very active in Gov't: It was because of a baptist preachers influence over Madison that we have the first admendment to the constitution.

C[/quote]

It's not the job of preachers to preach a political agenda. We are to preach the Bible, PERIOD.

It's an ungodly entwining of so called Christians that has allowed the Republican party to become the monster they have... because "christians" vote republican, and not BIBLE.

Christians (real ones) should vote BIBLE regardless of whether they have a chance of "winning" or not. We should vote for the candidate that GOD would have us vote for... not who has the "best chance".

If "christians" would quit playing politics and start living the Bible, we wouldn't need constitutional amendments to protect marriage, we wouldn't have to worry about the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade.

Have faith in God, he over rules government.[/quote]
:amen: :amen: :amen: :thumb

1 Cor 5:22-23 God says that the all in this passage means saved people,but it doesnt say what you want it to say,It doesnt say "those who dont get saved were choosen to be lost." Because God tells us what "all" means in this scripture doesnt mean that Jesus didnt die for those who will reject him.

Again in Rom.8:31 does say that Jesus was delivered for saved people,but again it doesnt say what you want it to that"Jesus wasnt delivered up for the lost." Because God word declares here that Jesus was delivered for saved people doesnt mean he wasnt for those who reject him,again you are coming up with something thats not there.

John 1:29 Jesus did take away sin.Notice that he said sin.Jesus died for sin itself,thus opening the way to whosever will can come.But not all people receive Jesus as their Saviour,its only efectual if you choose to recieve Jesus.On a side note,this is why ALL babies that die are in heaven,because their sin was paid for and they have yet to reach an age where they are accountable because they dont have the capacity to know what is right and wrong and to choose to sin when they know its wrong.Calvanism on the other hand teaches that only "elected" babies that die go to heaven,the rest are in hell because God choose to hate them.Rom. ch 5 is a good place that teaches this also.

John 10:14,15-again it doesnt say what you want it to.It doesnt say that he laid down his life for "only" those who get saved.Because he laid down his life for His sheep(saved people) doesnt mean he didnt for those who choose to reject Him.
Your trying to make the bible fit into a man made philosophy called Calvanism.It will never fit because the bible doesnt teach that the TULUP is the gospel,it proves that the TULIP is not the gospel.

Wow.....I hardly know where to begin with this one.

So...... does "all" always mean all? Does the "world" always mean every person on earth?
Well, let's just see...... 1Cor. 15:22,23 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Obviously the "all" here refers only to those who are in Christ.

Romans 8:31,33 "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."

The context of this passage indicates the "all" to be those who are saved. To say otherwise really does an injustice to the context. There are many places in Scripture where "all" simply refers to a multitude, and where "world" does not always mean the whole world.

How about John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

It does not say here that He can take away the sin of the world, if only the world will believe on Him, or that He has the capacity to take away the sin of the world. There are no if's, and's, or but's here. So if He "taketh away the sin of the world", why isn't every person saved?

John 10:14,15 "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

See Jery's post,he answers your objections that God loves all and Jesus died for all..

I agree with Zealy,the historical baptist position has always been for the seperation between church and state.

Looking back on sermons from past baptist preachers,yes they preached hot and heavy agianst things that are against God's word.If that happend to be a political issue for some,they didnt shy away from it .

The difference between what they did and what A LOT of sbc are doing now is that we should preach on issues for the cause of Christ,and not for the cause of politics.Thats being done today by preachers on the right and the left and it simply isnt biblical.

We are to be spreading the gospel and living a seperated life untill Jesus returns.Im not saying we shoudnt vote,or be informed about politics,Im saying that some folks have lost sight of what we are called to do.We are not called to change government,we are called to represent Jesus.

Christians should be involved in issues that face our country(abortion,sodomite marriges,ect..) but NOT for a political cause,but for the cause of Christ.His kingdom is not of this world,and hisoricaly,the RCC,,Anglicans,Calvanist,Lutherans and other protestants have always thought church and state go together,but the baptists have not.Sure old time baptists preached on issues that had become political,but they for the most part were advancing the cause of Christ and not for politics.If they were preaching for the sole cause for politics,they werent being scriptual.

The government will never be the answer to the problem that faces our country,and that problem isnt the democrats,republicans,hillary or Bush.The problem that faces our country is SIN.The government cant do anything about that but Jesus can,and that should be our focus.

I am talking about big guys in the SBC preaching candidates from their pulpits.

I don't think that preaching politics or politicians is appropriate for the IFB church and historical baptists didn't either.

Hummm..sounds like a good sermon topic..

An honest, unbiased study of John chapter 6 ought to convince anyone that all those who the Father draws to Christ will be saved.
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."(v.44)

"Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."(v.45)

So those who are drawn to Christ will believe on Him and He will raise them up at the last day. The "all men" of John 12 could very well, and most likely does mean "men of all nations" or all kinds of people.

What about "all" have sinned and come short of the glory of God",does that mean"men of all nations or all kinds of people?? Or does it mean just what it says?Ill take God at his word that he means all. All means all in John 12:32"And I,if I be lifted up from the earth will draw ALL men unto me",Again Ill take God at His word all means all

If you believe in irresistable grace,then do you believe in limited atonement? Because you cant have one without the other.If you believe all means elect from all kinds of people,do you believe 'the world' in john 3;16 means different elect and not all people?So if you believe in irresistable grace,I guess you believe that Jesus didnt die for all men?
It is God's will for us not to sin.Do we meet that standard?We (saved people) can and choose not to do God's will even when he convicts us,so only saved people can resist his convicting power??There are lots of scripture telling us how we can limit the work of the Spirit in our lives,so only a saved person can reject God's convicting power?How come irresistable grace doesnt work on saved people? So God has the power to make us believe(irresistable grace) but he doesnt have the power to make us obey him after we get saved?Do we only have free will after salvation?

Now lets look at your scripture proof that God only draws those he has predestined to save and the rest he chooses not to draw....Every IFB believes that you cant be saved unless the Holy Spirit convicts the sinner of sin,righteousness and judgement,drawing.

Its pretty straight forward, John 6:37"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me"..does it say,all that the Father draws shall come to me? No it doesnt. "So,those who are drawn to Christ will believe on him"......are nowhere to be found in the bible,those are your words.

God's word-"No man can come to me except the Father who sent me draw him" Doesnt say all that are drawn get saved.
the last half of the verse in John 6:44"and I will raise him up the last day".Doesnt say all that I draw will be saved and raised,does it? Its clear here, and everwhere else in the Bible,these verses refer to those who actually come to Chrsit.Its clear that this text nor any prove irresistable grace.

45"It is written in the prophets And they shall be taught of God Every man therefore that hath heard,and hath learned of the Father cometh unto me." again it doesnt say anything about grace being irresistable..every man that hears,and responds will be saved.

Hebrews 10:39"But we are not of them that draw back unto perdition,but of them that believe to the saving of the soul"
How can a man be drawn back to perdition,not have been drawn to the saving of the soul in the first place???

Most of the sites I look at are calvinists' date=' but I do like how they investigate the emrgents and the rcc. i am by no means a calvinist, but for some reason have a hard time finding an IFB site that goes over all of the info I want. Way of Life does but that is all that I have found.[/quote']


biblebelievers.com is a good site with info about the RCC,its well documented and has some testimonies of former catholics.

Check it out and see if you like it..

Some people think that once you accept Christ in your heart and in your life that you will never commit another sin again' date=' and if you do, then that must mean you are not saved. I am glad that is not true, because we are human beings after all and we commit sins. A saved person is not a perfect person - that comes later![/quote']


We cant DO anything to get saved and we cant DO anything to keep saved..its by grace through faith,thank the Lord!

IMO,You cant really be a two point or one point Calvanist.A Calvanist will tell you so if you ask him.

The points of the tulip cant stand on their own,all five points go together.

You cant have irresistable grace without total depravity,you cant have perserverance of the saints without unconditional election,you cant have unconditional election without limited atonement.
If you believe in one point of the tulip,the other four follow.

I dont think any point in the tulip is backed by scripture,which is what's important IMO.

Interesting blog,my guess is that not many of us on this board consider themselves as any kind of
evangelical.
He made some good points,thanks for the info tired.
Thanks for the heads up Jerry,we need to warn our fellow believers about folks with bad doctrine.

Auburn beat Bama again..... WAR EAGLE!!

Ok, fine, it is practically speaking not much of an issue at the moment anyway... We all agree that the pentacostals are quite wrong and we disagree only on whether or not it "can" happen today.

Very well put brother.

"I Corinthians 13:8-13 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."



Bro. Johnny Mac, please consider this... Even if your point of view on these verses is correct in many isolated countries it could be argued that scripture has not yet come to them. It may either be not available in their language or just simply very, very hard to get. I believe the stronger and more open satan is in a given area the more powerful God will show himself. Which would leave the possibility open in "dark" areas of the world even if your point of view is right.

Personally, I read this passage as speaking of our future glorified body and fellowship with Christ. Did the completion of scripture cause us to know God as he knows us? Absolutely not. We do know God through scripture but if we actually knew him as well as he knows us we wouldn't disagree on anything would we? Though some things are clearly revealed we still see through a glass darkly in other areas don't we? Further, Paul uses the personal pronoun "I" when he says "then shall I know even as also I am known.". Paul died before the book of Revelation was written... That says to me he was not referring to the completion of scripture in this passage but rather of heaven...

I understand your points but respectfully disagree..infact possibly my favotite preacher of all time John R. Rice,believes simularlly to you..The way I read it God is pointing out tounges,even when it was used correctly,wasnt to be sought after,but charity is because unlike the revelatory gifts that will cease when the revelation(the bible)is completed,charity in this world and the next will never cease..

God is contrasting the two..

I agree Seth and Dwayne. I don't see that verse as having anything to do with tongues not being around today, especially in light of the fact that he details how they should be used in the following chapter.
In a context of an entire chapter on love, it seems extremely apparent to me that it is saying, while prophecy, tongues and knowledge do not endure forever, love is unending.

The verse Seth quoted 1 Cor. 13:8 says tongues will cease.

The following two verses I believe say when tongues will cease.

vs 9 "For we know in part,and we prophesy in part. vs.10 "But that which is perfect is come,then that which is in part shall be done away."

I believe these three verses teach us how we received God's revelation (the Bible) in NT times, when it was completed (that which is perfect), these revelatory gifts(tongues, prophecy, knowledge, which in context means revelatory knowledge) will cease.

When this letter was written, the Bible wasn't completed, so God was telling the folks in Corinth how the tongues gift were to be presented in church, but when God's word was completed,these gifts would cease. God's word was completed with the book of Revelation.

I've seen a lot of "reformed baptist" now days. If part of being a Baptist means you believe in Soul Liberty... doesn't that conflict with all those "reformed" guys?

A reformed Baptist is a baptist that believes the doctrines of the t.u.l.i.p.,just ask them and they will tell you.I agree with Zealy,if you study the history of what we call "baptists" you will find that the majority of them were NEVER calvanistic.

There were far more generals than particulars.

The "reformed baptist" doctrine is poised to take over the SBC ,which is just one of the many reasons why I choose not to be a Southern Baptist.

Irresistable grace is the teaching that a person is bornagain before they believe the gospel.The hottest evangelist going in SBC circles is Paul Washer.He basically preaches the I and the P part of Calvanism from the sermons I have heard.

Hes got people believing that assurance of salvation doesnt rest in trusting in God's word that He said if you repent and believe and ask him to save you he will,but it rests in your works.(I say this knowing Ill get flamed beacause a lot of folks listen to him and like him).He says things like"why do you know you believe the gospel?"Inferring that your works give you assurance of your faith.I know that a true born again person will not make sin a practice in his lfe,simply meaning they have the Holy Spirit to chastise them and correct them,if they feel no need to repent of a sinful thing in their life,there is no conviction,hence no Jesus.

Hes got people believing that alter calls and invitations are wrong.That invinting a sinner to call upon the name of the Lord(praying) is wrong.

Why???? Because he believes that Jesus didnt die for all people,only those he choose to save.He believes that if a person asks Jesus into their heart to save them,they are not saved because the heart is wicked and cant be trusted.
He thinks asking people to make a decision to recieve Jesus as their Saviour is wrong and only makes "false believers",becasue man isnt capable of making a decision to be saved.Because he believes in the TULIP theology.That man cant resist God's grace(the I in tulip) and is born again before believing and that perserverance(the P in tulip),the works a saint does is the assurance of salvation.
A lot of idependant baptists have swallowed his kool-aid and Im not sure they realize that he is A calvanist,and thats why he believes the way he does about evangelizing.

Now I cant say that every "reformed baptist" believes the way he does,but he is a member of the SBC and he calls himself a reformed baptist.Im not picking on him,he is just the only self proclaimed refromed baptist that I have heard preach and he has influenced IFBers as well as the SBC from what I can tell.,Im not tearing him down personally,I just dont think Calvanism is biblical.
I must admit I havent heard every thing thats on the net that he has preached,but I have heard enough to know that his Calvanism(TULIP) is having a huge influence on the SBC and some IFB'ers as well.

I never thought Id see the day when Independant Fundemental Baptists would be against preaching the gospel and asking folks to repent and make a decision to trust Christ for their salvation,but it has come. I think its a backlash against 1-2-3 trust in a prayer style of evangelism,which is also not biblical.Im very afraid that the TULIP will take root in some IFB churches as it has the SBC,which I hope deosnt happen.

Im not really wanting to debate Calvanism with anyone,If you are a Calvanist and are on a an Idependant Fundemental website which in an article on its home page says that Calvanism isnt biblical,you have made up your mind about the subject. Thats been done in other threads and wasnt exactly edifying.If someone would like to talk one on one,thats cool,its just that I dont think I need to fight about Calvanism not being biblical on an IFB web site.