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Independent Fundamental Baptist
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Everything posted by DaveW

  1. I think in some respects it is even worse today with the interwebs.... People can look up and find out about the person and follow them into whatever their heresy is..... In times past the person would often just remain a name and nothing more.
  2. I just know that certain names seem to pop up regularly when you see "Conference preaching" advertised, and I thought his was among them.....
  3. Wasn't he associated with meetings with Doug Fisher, Paul Chappel, etc? I am sure I was given a CD set of some preaching meetings with a bunch of "big name" preachers, and I am pretty sure that name was among them.
  4. Why do so many people quote heretics just because they say something 'nice' or cute? I have been forced onto facebook (long story but it is necessary...) and it amazes me the number of quote memes posted that are from men who teach false doctrine but who happen to have said something cute or nice. Do people not realise that quoting such men gives your approval to them, and promotes them before others? You are in effect promoting them, their ministry, and their false doctrines.
  5. My wife and I went for a drive in the country the other day to a place called Dwellingup, stopped and had lunch near the river, and saw these couple of guys. No Idea what the first guy is as I am not a birdwatcher (after some searching it is a Scarlet Robin), but everyone here knows what the other one is: a Kookaburra. They are a kind of kingfisher, but have a distinctive call, which sounds a little bit like maniacal laughter when they get really into it. They are not a cautious bird at all, well known for stealing food from the tables while people are eating there. In fact, one of them flew right in between my wife and I facing each other at the table. He didn't get our food though, because we were quick enough.....
  6. For what? God has a plan for funding His churches already.
  7. Isn't it funny that the Bible often upsets what people want to teach?????
  8. Est 3:1 After these things did king Ahasuerus promote Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, and advanced him, and set his seat above all the princes that were with him.
  9. Gentlemen, have you asked yourself why the ladies came in the morning instead of as soon as the Sabbath was finished, which would have been just after dusk on Saturday evening? A worthy bible study for you to consider.
  10. As it turns out I did go to his website to seek his position, and what I found was a number of false points and arguments, including one in his anti-kjv piece criticizing a bad word translation, which is NOT EVEN FROM THE KJV, but is included without any defining reference in such a way as to indicate an error in the KJV. I only know it is not KJV because I searched the offending phrase and found it was not in the KJV ANYWHERE. And of course he didn't give a reference address for it. This is simply an OUTRIGHT DELIBERATE DECEIT. This is the kind of thing this guy apparently does in order to construct his arguments.
  11. I think it is interesting that Mac has not bothered to address the simple critique of his "divorce" devotion that I did. He has not even tried to answer a single point that I made. And he has not addressed the reason for his self promotion over the Lord, even though at least two of us have noted it. He has not addressed the issue of "loss of salvation" that he alludes to in his divorce devotion - does he believe that eternal life is not in fact eternal? I am certain he thinks we are unloving, but it is not a hateful thing to warn against unbiblical teaching. Indeed, his discussion on the KJV issue has just that intention, although he uses a great deal of misinformation and innacurracy, as well as the aforementioned straw man method. Basically, to any reader of this thread who would be inclined to investigate, I would warn you to diligently check every word of this man against the Bible, and you will find that he is greatly lacking in integrity where Biblical exposition is concerned.
  12. Thankfully my wife is very discerning when it comes to study material for our ladies' meetings. There are so many popular but doctrinally poor writers out there. But I have noticed the use of motivational memes from bad teachers, without regard to the base doctrinal position of the "sayer" of the meme......
  13. Mr McMillen, you clearly lack understanding of at least two things: the fact that your links will continue to be deleted here (because this site will not allow you to promote your false teaching here), and the nature of the church. And no, I am not suggesting it is a building..... do some more study......
  14. I would suggest to the mods that these links be broken. It takes very little perusing of these links to find false doctrine taught, and the basic process of this guy is straw man and misrepresentation.
  15. Place is full of birds - magpies, 28's (a smallish green parrot), kookaburra, a couple of roos have been around. Haven't seen any smaller critters, but they are around. Most lizards and snakes will be trying to keep warm, so unlikely to see any this time of year - although there was a small lizard in the woodpile. Not sure what kind as it was darkish and he was quickly deeper into the pile. Relaxing is what we need right now.
  16. Having a short break away for the week, in a house in the South West of Western Australia - mid winter here, so a light rain, around 18° C, so cool but perfect for sitting on the verandah, and retreating to the wood fire when it cools more. (I hope the short video works) 20190724_090703.mp4
  17. I find it profitable to read passages out loud to myself - there is something about hearing while you read......
  18. Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
  19. I should add that the ONLY REASON I went to the website to investigate is because of his accusatory post towards Alan. I generally don't post about such people, preferring to leave them alone. But when someone accuses a solid man like Alan in this way, I investigate to see who is right. I like Alan, but he is only a man and I am sure he would happily admit that he is prone to mistakes, as are we all. As such I check to see who is telling it like really is. In my opinion, Alan is far more trustworthy than this mcmillinministries guy.
  20. Had a quick look at his website, and a few things come up to me. Most on this website are pretty clear about the KJV issue, and this is a FANTASTIC example..... ******* This is from the NIV, and is the title verse of one of his devotions. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!” 2 Corinthians 5:17******* This is the KJV: 2Co 5:17 (17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Now, if you compare the two versions, you see some GLARING differences in substance. "The new creation has come" is a very different statement to "he is a new creature". One (the KJV) designates the one in Christ as becoming a new creature, the other (the NIV) talks of some undefined new creation having come - but there is no idea from the passage what this new creation is or what it is doing. A fantastic example why the KJV issue is not a side issue. Secondly, I am always wary when a Christian site deliberately leave off any kind of statement of faith or list of basic beliefs. I wonder what they are trying to keep secret...….. Thirdly, whenever I see a ministry which is named after a man I cringe. What about the kind of attitude that John the Baptist had: Joh 3:29-30 (29) He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. (30) He must increase, but I must decrease. Or Paul's attitude: 2Co 12:7 (7) And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. And Paul was glad of his infirmity, for it kept him humble. And we see so many people today with ministries that they name after themselves...……….. Is this a godly thing to do? It would seem that it is not. As to particular teachings, I have quickly perused the devotional about divorce, and I must say that he begins by presenting the most extreme examples of bad relationships. This is a common tactic of those who wish to support a practice - see the abortionists who talk about rape victims as a justification for abortion when the truth is that the number of abortions done in such cases is far less than 1% of the total. Use the extreme to justify the practice, and then apply the practice generally. This is the tactic that his devotion begins with - extreme examples that everyone agrees are abominable, which set people on the mind of supporting divorce. He then attacks the extreme position that says a person must stay in such extreme relationships no matter what - which I for one have never heard anyone promote. This is called a "straw man argument". So you see that in this one devotion he uses extreme examples and argues against extreme counter positions, and he does so tactically, with no real initial bible referencing. Regardless of where you stand on the actual issue, you must see that this is a deceitful tactic which is designed, not to find truth, but to sway to a predisposed position. Also in one of the examples he states “God hates divorce,” the pastor says. “But, biblically, you are allowed to divorce her because of her adultery. I wouldn’t take the chance though. There’s no guarantee you’ll stay saved yourself. After the divorce you might fall out of God’s will for your own life and be in danger of the fires of hell. Hang in there, lest you fall too.” This is the answer that a mythical pastor gives to a mythical husband about a mythical unfaithful wife. Note that the Pastor says "....There's no guarantee you'll stay saved yourself..." This is in one of his made up examples - now I am not sure if he is a proponent of loss of salvation or not, but the example he uses here the Pastor certainly is. However, I suspect that this man is no fan of churches and Pastors in general, and so he is here painting the Pastor (mythical as he is) in the worst possible light. He also is attacking the premise that divorce is some kind of unforgivable sin, which I have never heard an IFB preacher present, so this is again a straw man that he has made for the purposes of being able to tear it down. I would suggest that this guy is at the very least not an independent Baptist, and that is reason enough to be very wary of his teaching. He uses other versions (At least the NIV, but since he does not give any credit that I can find, each instance needs to be checked). This is a concern, because different versions say different things - as we can see by the example above. He makes certain statements that are just plain wrong: “Therefore, my brethren (anytime Paul says brethren he’s referring to his Jewish race), you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God…But now we have been released from the Law (just like a woman is released from her husband if he dies) having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter (the letter is the Law).” (Romans 7:4,6, my notes added) How about these: Rom 1:13 (13) Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. Who is he talking to? ONLY to Jews in Rome? Rom 1:6-7 (6) Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: (7) To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Hmmmm - doesn't seem to be talking about Jews there. Another one: 1Co 1:10 (10) Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. Who is included in brethren here? 1Co 1:1-2 (1) Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, (2) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Another: 2Co 1:8 (8) For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: 2Co 1:1 (1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: Another: Gal 1:1-2 (1) Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) (2) And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: Who was with Him? We don't know, but it is supposed that the Letter to the Galatians was written from Rome, so it is unlikely that there were only Jewish believers with Paul. Onesimus was with Paul in Rome at one stage, and he was apparently a slave of a man with a Greek name, who had a church with people with Greek names, and Onesimus appears to be a Greek name. And another: Eph 6:10 (10) Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Considering that this was also written from Rome, and written to the church in the city of Ephesus, and that Paul uses a specific armour description pertaining to the Roman soldier, it is unlikely that this letter was written only to Jews. And we could go on - I have only used the FIRST instance of the word brethren in each of these epistles, and not cherry picked the best ones. Clearly, Paul used the term Brethren to speak also of non-Jewish saints, and not just of his own countrymen, although he did also use the term brethren on one occasion that I could find to refer specifically to Jews: Rom 9:3 (3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Kind of a difference that the majority of times that Paul used the term "brethren", he was talking of saints regardless of nation, and only once that I could find (with a quick search) did he use the term "Brethren" to denote those of his own nation. What did this teacher say? ".....(anytime Paul says brethren he’s referring to his Jewish race),......" Are these enough reasons to be wary of this man? And then he comes on here and accuses Alan of lying about him............ Without any answers or evidence to back up his accusation. Nutshell: Wrong Bible Version. No list of beliefs to give people a baseline of his doctrinal position. Prideful naming of ministry. deceitful method of presentation of argument. Straw man arguments Extreme case presentation, general application. (Abortionist method) Unbiblical claims And remember that this is from ONE of his devotions. It will be interesting to see if he answers any of this stuff. In any case, I won't be buying one of his books any time soon.
  21. Can I point out that the title of this thread is very specifically "No pictures of any created thing?" I understand the point of clarifying that no image of God is to be made, but unless you are suggesting that God is a created thing, this side of the discussion is off topic and in fact muddying the waters of this topic. If someone later comes along looking g for discussion about THE TOPIC they will be quickly drawn away from the topic. Start another thread to discuss images of God..... PLEASE!
  22. Pro_11:3 The integrity of the upright shall guide them: but the perverseness of transgressors shall destroy them. Pro_19:1 Better is the poor that walketh in his integrity, than he that is perverse in his lips, and is a fool. Pro_20:7 The just man walketh in his integrity: his children are blessed after him. I have found over the years that when such gossip and slander is spread around, it is simply best to let the Lord deal with it, and do nothing. It is really hard to do sometimes, but if you "stand in your integrity" the truth will eventually outshine the lies. I have been the target of such attacks on a few occasions over the years, and it is my wife who struggles most with it - she cannot bear to see someone attack my character without cause. The most recent occasion involved a man slandering me (and my wife and kids also to a lesser extent) to anyone and everyone who would listen, and it did cause us some trouble, but eventually the people stopped listening to him, because the lies came before people who refused to believe them because they know us. The gentleman involved eventually was corrected by others, and has since left the area entirely. He still is spreading his lies, but the Lord keep showing people the truth. Just a few months ago I heard from someone else who "had been told things" by this guy, and he contacted me to let me know that he wasn't buying what the guy was selling. I truly have found that if I walk as best I can to serve and honour the Lord - not that I do it all that well - but the Lord protects me from these attacks, and each time the other person runs out of people to gossip to.
  23. The view of a winter's day in Perth, Western Australia. It is hard to live here, but somebody has to do it.......
  24. Yes, that is correct. The reason why that matter was not addressed in my discussion is that it was very specifically about the creation images, pictures, sculptures, and representations of CREATED things.
  25. Not a fully finished paper by any means, really just the rambling Bible search results with some text to join them together, but here it is..... Make of it what you will.... The Discussion of the depiction of created things based on Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 4 is an interesting one. Recently I was told of someone who holds to the position that any representation of a created things was sinful. This position was apparently based on passages such as: Exo 20:4 (4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: And also: Deu 4:16-18 (16) Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, (17) The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, (18) The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: On the surface of it, one can understand why someone might jump to the conclusion that absolutely any picture, painting, photo, sculpture, or other form of artificial representation could be the subject of these passages. The question is whether this is a reasonable understanding of these passages? Of course, the one who wants to hold onto this “interpretation” of these passages will simply counter that they are holding to a strictly literal interpretation of the passages. So let’s have a look at the issues involved in this matter. There are two basic arguments against this understanding of these passages: Firstly, the matter of context. Whilst these particular verses initially appear to support this view, they only do so in isolation from their context. Let’s look at these verses WITH the surrounding verses. Exo 20:3-5 (3) Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: (5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; We will note that the basis for verse 4 is stated clearly in vs 3 – it is in the context of not having any gods before the One true God. Then vs 4 states not to make any graven image, then vs 5 notes that you are not to bow down to the image, nor to serve the image. The command to not make any graven image is not made in isolation, but in the context of not worshipping any god other than the One True God. So the over-riding concept of the passage is not worshipping anything other than God. To take the single matter of vs 4 and say that you cannot make a picture of anything AT ALL, is not really reasonable. The proper understanding of the passage is that you cannot make any image FOR THE PURPOSE OF WORSHIPPING IT. What about the other passage then? Deu 4:14-19 (14) And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it. (15) Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: (16) Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, (17) The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, (18) The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: (19) And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. There is no doubt that vss. 16 – 18 warn against making any graven image or similitude of any figure, and there is no doubt that the list includes men and women, beasts, birds, critters, fish, and vs 19 even includes the sun, moon, and stars. But again, this is not in isolation. This is NOT a strict warning against simply making pictures of things. Vs 15 points out that there was no similitude when God called Moses to the mount to get the Law from God. Interesting isn’t it that the very passage God refers to in this passage, is the very situation where the people had no image of God presented to them, but they decided to make a bull to worship…. The very time that God directs them that they shouldn’t make a graven image, he points to a time when they did exactly that as a nation. They made something TO WORSHIP instead of worshipping God. By referencing that event, God is setting the context of the teaching in Deuteronomy 4:16-19. It is about making something to worship, not simply about making a picture of something. And vs 19 closes off the context of this passage. (19) And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. Notice here that after we have a list of all the things that images SHOULDN’T be made of, the last verse of this section – which includes the portion about the sun, moon, and stars – actually also includes the detail of the command. Right in the middle of that last verse it says “shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them,”. This is the key to this whole passage. It is not about the simple making of a picture or even a sculpture of something – it is about the possibility of being driven to worship that image. The context of these two passages is actually about the worship of images, similitudes, and representations of creatures, but it is NOT about the simple making of such images. It is about the purpose and use of these images. For decoration, for enjoyment, is fine; for worship is not OK. So, the context of the passages indicates that the simple making of pictures or even sculptures is not really a problem, as long as there is no way it can become a thing of worship. This then, brings us to the second reason why I don’t accept that it is wrong to make any picture of any creature for any reason: God actually commanded people to make images of creatures at different times – NEVER to be worshipped by the way. In certain circumstances God commanded his people to make images of created things. Exo 25:17-22 (17) And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof. (18) And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. (19) And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. (20) And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. (21) And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. (22) And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel. And we will note that this is for the place that the Lord Himself would meet with the high priest, and before the priest went into this place, he had to prepare himself and wash himself and sacrifice for his own sins before he could enter. If any image of any created things was sinful, then there is NO WAY that the Lord would have commanded the people to make such a thing for the place where He would meet man’s representative. That one instance is pretty much a slam dunk against this teaching, but there is more. In the making of the robes that the High Priest was to wear when entering the Holy of Holies to meet the Lord therein, part of the garment was to place bells on the hem of the garment, but also Pomegranates. Exo 28:31-35 (31) And thou shalt make the robe of the ephod all of blue. (32) And there shall be an hole in the top of it, in the midst thereof: it shall have a binding of woven work round about the hole of it, as it were the hole of an habergeon, that it be not rent. (33) And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, round about the hem thereof; and bells of gold between them round about: (34) A golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe round about. (35) And it shall be upon Aaron to minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the LORD, and when he cometh out, that he die not. Again, if it was sinful to make any image or representation of any created thing (In this case a pomegranate), then why does God expressly command that they would do so for the garment designed for the High Priest to wear? So we have two separate instances of God commanding the creation of sculptures of created things to be present when God met with the High Priest. God would not command something sinful to be present when He was coming to a place. When Solomon built the Temple, he made it with Cherubim in the Holy Place, and with carvings on the walls and doors. 1Ki 6:23-35 (23) And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high. (24) And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits. (25) And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubims were of one measure and one size. (26) The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub. (27) And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house. (28) And he overlaid the cherubims with gold. (29) And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without. (30) And the floor of the house he overlaid with gold, within and without. (31) And for the entering of the oracle he made doors of olive tree: the lintel and side posts were a fifth part of the wall. (32) The two doors also were of olive tree; and he carved upon them carvings of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid them with gold, and spread gold upon the cherubims, and upon the palm trees. (33) So also made he for the door of the temple posts of olive tree, a fourth part of the wall. (34) And the two doors were of fir tree: the two leaves of the one door were folding, and the two leaves of the other door were folding. (35) And he carved thereon cherubims and palm trees and open flowers: and covered them with gold fitted upon the carved work. And Solomon also had pillars other items made for the Temple court: 1Ki 7:13-29 (13) And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre. (14) He was a widow's son of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass: and he was filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass. And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work. (15) For he cast two pillars of brass, of eighteen cubits high apiece: and a line of twelve cubits did compass either of them about. (16) And he made two chapiters of molten brass, to set upon the tops of the pillars: the height of the one chapiter was five cubits, and the height of the other chapiter was five cubits: (17) And nets of checker work, and wreaths of chain work, for the chapiters which were upon the top of the pillars; seven for the one chapiter, and seven for the other chapiter. (18) And he made the pillars, and two rows round about upon the one network, to cover the chapiters that were upon the top, with pomegranates: and so did he for the other chapiter. (19) And the chapiters that were upon the top of the pillars were of lily work in the porch, four cubits. (20) And the chapiters upon the two pillars had pomegranates also above, over against the belly which was by the network: and the pomegranates were two hundred in rows round about upon the other chapiter. (21) And he set up the pillars in the porch of the temple: and he set up the right pillar, and called the name thereof Jachin: and he set up the left pillar, and called the name thereof Boaz. (22) And upon the top of the pillars was lily work: so was the work of the pillars finished. (23) And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. (24) And under the brim of it round about there were knops compassing it, ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about: the knops were cast in two rows, when it was cast. (25) It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward. (26) And it was an hand breadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies: it contained two thousand baths. (27) And he made ten bases of brass; four cubits was the length of one base, and four cubits the breadth thereof, and three cubits the height of it. (28) And the work of the bases was on this manner: they had borders, and the borders were between the ledges: (29) And on the borders that were between the ledges were lions, oxen, and cherubims: and upon the ledges there was a base above: and beneath the lions and oxen were certain additions made of thin work. Oxen, Cherubims, Lions, Pomegranates, Lillies. And what did God think of all of these creatures depicted with such skill and with such beauty? 1Ki 8:10-11 (10) And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, (11) So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD. The Lord would not have filled the house with His glory if it was being sinfully defiled by such images. We can only assume that God was not displeased with such representations of His creation. A final example, and one which displays the reality of the command in Exodus 20:4 and Deuteronomy 4:16-18 is found in Numbers 21. Num 21:5-8 (5) And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. (6) And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. (7) Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. (8) And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. It says specifically here that the Lord told Moses to make this sculpture of a fiery serpent. Of course many years later the Lord would use this as a pointer to His own death and resurrection, but it seems as though the people kept this serpent around for many years after the judgement of these fiery serpents was over. We read in 2 Kings 18 that Hezekiah had to deal with this many years later. 2Ki 18:1-4 (1) Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. (2) Twenty and five years old was he when he began to reign; and he reigned twenty and nine years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Abi, the daughter of Zachariah. (3) And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did. (4) He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan. Hezekiah was the 14th King from David (I think), and of course after Moses there was Joshua, and then the Judges, then Saul, and then David, so we are talking a fair number of years between the making of this serpent by God’s command and the time of Hezekiah, but what is the reason for King Hezekiah destroying this image which had lasted for how many hundred and something years? “In those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it:….” It was destroyed because the people had begun to worship it. All through the time of Moses, and Joshua, and the Judges, and how many Kings it was not a problem – in fact it was reminder of how great God was. But when the people began to worship it, it was time to destroy it. And Hezekiah says of it “It is Nehushtan”, which literally means “Something made of copper”. Hezekiah said to them “It is just a piece of metal, not something to be worshipped.” So, by context, the initial passages are talking about the worship of pictures, images, and representations, not about the simple making of such things. By example, we see that God actually commanded the making of such images (NOT TO BE WORSHIPPED) on at least two occasions, and certainly accepted the making of the images throughout Solomon’s Temple, as shown by His willingness to dwell in the Temple. Far from saying that men should not make images and pictures of God’s creation, God commanded or condoned the making of such images. What is NOT ACCEPTABLE is the worshipping and veneration of such images. In my research I could not find this teaching among any group. I am told that some parts of the Mennonite and Amish groups hold to this, but of course there is going to be little record of such “On-line” as both these groups tend to stay away from technology. This IS a teaching from Islam however. http://www.justaskislam.com/184/pictures-halal-or-haram/ This is a full article about Islam and their teaching regarding this issue, which is basically that no image of any created thing should be made at all. I DO NOT SUGGEST that you go to the website, unless you are seriously interested in what they have to say - it basically says no images whatsoever. There is simply no reason to go there if you are a Christian, except to check that I have represented it correctly.

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