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DaveW

Independent Fundamental Baptist
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Everything posted by DaveW

  1. Oh so the dictionary quote is wrong? So now, the Bible is wrong, my experience is wrong, God is wrong, and the dictionary is wrong, but you are right because you say so. And you still have not done this board the basic courtesy of introducing yourself properly in the intro section, just the way that every false teacher who has come to this site has refused to do for the past couple of years. Unsupported accusations...... You really are unbelievable. He supported everything with official documents. You have supported nothing (in any discussion on this board by the way), and you whole argument appears to based on "I'm right and you're wrong" and nothing else. And you still refuse to give this board the basic courtesy of a proper introduction in the intro section, just like every other event false teacher...
  2. Lovely attitude there. What about the church looking after a widow? What about this grieving woman who has lost her husband who was a faithful servant for who knows how long being looked after. Your lack of compassion betrays you.
  3. Next matter then....... (And note that I am not changing because I cannot answer you, I am changing because YOU WILL NOT answer the previous points.) Genesis 17 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. note 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. note 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. God made an EVERLASTING COVENANT that the lan would be an EVERLASTING POSESSION. I hope the everlasting life that God promises is not like your idea of an everlasting covenant - one that can be broken and is therefore not actually everlasting. I hope everlasting life is JUST LIKE God's everlasting promises - IT LASTS FOREVER..... So then - if it was given as an everlasting covenant then the people MUST still exist or it has failed and WAS NEVER everlasting in the first place. Explain how it is that your position makes God liar, but you still think you are right and....... God is wrong?!?!?!?! And OF COURSE you still have not done this board the basic courtesy of properly introducing yourself in the intro section, which is a glaring commonality with the false teachers who come to this forum to cause trouble.
  4. Purely statutory...... statutory /ˈstatʃʊt(ə)ri,ˈstatjʊt(ə)ri/ adjective required, permitted, or enacted by statute. Oh you mean purely about a law made by government? Yep it is a pure legal matter. He broke the law, and he paid for it. In this matter Hovind was not fighting for religious freedom - he was fighting to not pay taxes - it was a money issue plain and simple. And Alan would not be happy to see any Christian persecuted. This is the verse that applies to his case: 1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. And you still have not done this board the basic courtesy of properly introducing yourself in the intro section, which is the standard practice of false teachers who come here to cause trouble.
  5. Not that I care much because I have seen the monuments and walls with such info, but the very first link I came across was this: To this day there are Jews who trace their descent from the ancient tribe of priests (kohanim) and levites (leviim) of the Jewish Bible and who still receive special recognition in areas such as the Jewish synagogue service. https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki › J... Jewish genealogy - Wikipedia So at least one tribe still knows, but I was led around Israel by a guy who has traced his lineage to Benjamin, and many - not all, but many Israelies can and do know their tribal heritage. So then, personal experience, web site support, and that little matter of 46 verses showing that God doesn't agree with you. This again is pointless, because you refuse to address the EVIDENCE placed before, but somehow think that to counter with "I'm right and you're wrong" is good enough..... Time to move on to YET ANOTHER section that goes against your false teaching. And OF COURSE you still have not done this board the basic courtesy of properly introducing yourself in the intro section, which is a glaring commonality with the false teachers who come to this forum to cause trouble.
  6. I quoted 46 verses of evidence to back up my personal experience. Why would I need more? Surely MY personal experience is AT LEAST as relevant as you unsupported opinion.... And you still haven't shown any evidence that Rev 7 is symbolic in that section, nor of which "spiritual tribe" you are a part, AND you haven't actually answered EVEN ONE verse of those I posted, the majority of which state clearly that God still considers Israel to be a legitimate nation. I would rather follow God's opinion than yours... And OF COURSE you still have not done this board the basic courtesy of properly introducing yourself in the intro section, which is a glaring commonality with the false teachers who come to this forum to cause trouble.
  7. No need for that sort of language. You really do have a problem with people presenting actual evidence don't you.....
  8. All he has done is provide evidence, similar to what I did in the other thread when I posted every Bible verse that proves you wrong, but you seem to value your own opinion over any kind of evidence. And you still have not done this board the basic courtesy of introducing yourself properly in the intro section.
  9. You post evidence backing up your claim. I have been to Israel, spoken to Israelies who know their heritage, been to places that list their heritage. Not internet waffle but genuine experience. And you won't answer any of the verses because you can't. God, in His perfect Word, constantly and repeatedly refers to national Israel after you say He has forsaken then. You are wrong, and your " I'm right and you're wrong" attitude will not change that. And you still have not done this board the basic courtesy of properly introducing yourself in the intro section..
  10. Oh yeah, and you haven't designated the "Spiritual tribe" you are part of..... You really do have to explain what the purpose is of naming each if the twelve individual tribes. If it is symbolic (and it isn't) then what do each of the tribes symbolise? Because if they are symbolic it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to include that section. Explain away the tribes in Rev 7. And you still refuse to do this board the basic good manners of properly introducing yourself, which is the standard modus operandi of false teachers who come here.
  11. On both counts you are wrong. Many KJV people have done considerable study into both translation matters and manuscript matters. Comparing modern versions to the KJV can be useful, but it is not the whole matter. Secondly, I have first hand experience of conversations and been shown evidence in Israel of those who can follow the tribal history. This is legitimate, provable, evidence based fact, not your personal denial of such. (What is it with you and the whole "I'm right and you're wrong" stuff - you don't present any evidence, and have not done so as far as I can see in ANY of your posts.) As far as biblical evidence of national Israel's existence being acknowledge by God, I am glad you asked. It is not "my doctrine" that says national Israel still exists, it is God's. I would like you to respond to EVERY verse and passage listed here, with the exception of those which are clearly historical record (as marked). Here is every use of the word “Israel” that occurs in the Bible after the Resurrection of Jesus (Excluding the Gospels). There are 46 verses. In each of these 46 verses the name of Israel is used by the writer UNDER THE MOVING of the HOLY GHOST. Not one of these uses is an incorrect usage of the name “Israel” (Because the Bible is perfect.) Act_1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? The Disciples were not rebuked by Jesus for referring to national Israel. Act_2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Act_2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. The men then standing before Peter were not saved men, but were Israelites. Many of them were saved AFTER Peter finished his preaching. Act_3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? Again, the men being spoken to in this passage were not saved at that time, but were Israelites. Act_4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel, Act_4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. Chapter 4 was preaching before the Hebrew council, the overwhelming majority of whom were unsaved at that time. Peter twice calls them Israel, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. Act_4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, They were praying to the Lord when they referred to national Israel specifically in this passage. Act_5:21 And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought. This is not referring to some kind of “Senate of saved people” but to the (Largely unsaved) senate of “the children of Israel” (There is that term....) Act_5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. This one is a reference to the purpose of Jesus, and therefore being mentioned after the death and resurrection of Jesus is not relevant to this discussion. Act_5:35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. This was a man of the council referring to “the men of Israel”, and not an Apostle, so it is not directly relevant. Act_7:23 And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel. Act_7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. Act_7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? The previous 3 verses are all record of the history of Israel and therefore not relevant to this discussion. Act_9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: This is GOD HIMSELF, speaking of the commission of Saul (Paul) to testify of God before the Gentiles and “the children of Israel” (There is that term again...) This is ABSOLUTELY speaking about unsaved people, and in this case it is the direct recording of the WORDS OF GOD HIMSELF. Act_10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) It could be argued that this reference is historic, but it is referring to national Israel when it uses that term (there is that term again...) Act_13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience. Act_13:17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it. Act_13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: Act_13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. This is Peter preaching to a gathering of people, and vs 16 is interesting to this discussion for it mentions “Men of Israel”... “and ye that fear God”, making a distinction between the two groups that were there present. Act_21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place. This was a false charge against Paul, and therefore made by an unsaved man. As a result it cannot be used in this discussion. Act_28:20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain. The Hope of Israel is Jesus Christ, and therefore this verse is not relevant to this discussion. Rom_9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Rom_9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: These two verses have already been discussed, but the intervening verses are all directly relating to national Israel. Rom_9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: Historical reference. Rom_9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. The use of the word “Hath” which is a present tense word brings the reference into the time of the statement, therefore showing that “Israel” had not at that time attained righteousness (salvation), but that Israel was AT THAT TIME A VALID REFERENCE to the nation. Rom_10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. Clearly, if Israel was “spiritual Israel” ONLY, then this verse makes no sense. National Israel is being referenced here. Rom_10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. Historical reference. Rom_10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. Historical reference but obviously relevant to that day also. Rom_11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Rom_11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, In verse 1 Paul not only calls himself an Israelite, but then defines what he means by that, when he gives the lineage of his Physical birth. He is stating that physically he is an Israelite. Then is vs 2 he states that He hath not cast his people away - the physical lineage is what he is talking about not spiritual... Rom_11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded If this is spiritual Israel, then it is saying that not all saved people are saved. Sounds like something Calvin would say...... Rom_11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Blindness in part is happened to Israel..... does this mean that some saved people are blinded? and it mentions a timeline here - until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. Part of Israel will be blind until that time....... but after that time we have the next verse. Rom_11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: So all Israel shall be saved when the fullness of the gentiles be come in. That is not yet.... so part of Israel (as distinct from the Gentiles by the way) is currently in blindness. 1Co_10:18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? “Israel after the flesh” “Eat of the sacrifices of the altar”...... Has to be National Israel, no other explanation makes sense. 2Co_3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: Historical reference, but there is that term again..... 2Co_3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: Historical reference, but there is that term again..... 2Co_11:22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. All terms which speak about national Israel, and used in such a way as to emphasise that aspect. Gal_6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. This verse makes a distinction between the saved and “the Israel of God”, apparently asking God to give them peace and mercy. Eph_2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Neither saved, nor citizens of the nation of Israel, and not associated with the covenants of promise (which were given to national Israel), and having no hope, and without God. The rest of the passage makes the point that it makes no difference what nation you come from, everyone has sinned and everyone needs to be saved. Php_3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Of the stock of Israel - obviously a reference to national Israel. Heb_8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: House of Israel and the house of Judah - obviously national Israel (and national Judah). Heb_8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: Context has not changed - national Israel. Heb_11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. Historical reference. Rev_2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. Historical reference. Rev_7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Tribes mentioned - why would God mention the individual tribes if he was speaking “symbolically”? They have no spiritual reference. Rev_21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: Why would God write the names of the twelve tribes on the gates of His Holy City if He did not consider them His people? There are some of these that are not relevant either because they are simply an historical record, or in two cases it is an ungodly man making the reference. These men could be misusing the reference, and so it is not reasonable to use them as evidence. HOWEVER, every reference to national Israel that occurs after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ proves that God still considers the nation of Israel to be a legitimate nation. If He did not, He would not record the nation as a nation in His Word. Along with this, there is the statement of Romans 11: Rom 11:1-2 KJV (1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Paul directly addresses this question, and no matter a person may do with the rest of the passage, Paul asks and then answers the question - emphatically God has not cast away His people which he foreknew, the physical nation which Paul references in vs 1. The point here with all of these verses, is that God constantly and repeatedly throughout the New Testament and after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (which is when you say that Israel ceased to be a nation) refers to the nation of Israel in terms that indicate it is still a legitimate nation. Now, personally, I think God knows what He is talking about, and if He is happy to constantly and repeatedly refer to the nation of Israel, I am happy to accept that God recognises them as a legitimate nation. Further to this, if God uses references to the tribes, or individual tribes, on several occasions in the New Testament, then I am happy to accept that God knows who makes up those tribes that He states clearly that He is going to use TWICE in the book of Revelation. The God of the Bible is able to do that. Your god apparently cannot. And you still refuse to do this board the basic good manners of properly introducing yourself, which is the standard modus operandi of false teachers who come here.
  12. Again with the "I'm right and you're wrong ". And you still have done this board the common courtesy of introducing yourself properly in the intro section.
  13. So you are legitimately going to base your whole argument on "I'm right and you're wrong"? You are unbelievable..... All I can say to you is that your assessment of the people I have spoken to is totally wrong and based on absolutely zero evidence. It is based only on your wanting to be so. You are so deceived..... And your god is not the God of the Bible, for my God can do what He promises. When He notes the 144000 as " the children of Israel", and designates them by naming each and every tribe, I MUST believe that He has preserved the tribes, and I KNOW He is able to do whatsoever He promises. Your whole argument is based only on your wanting it to be so, but it just isn't. I have presented verses, passages, and Biblical evidence, and reported first hand information to back up my position. You have done nothing more than say I am wrong. I genuinely feel sorry for you - the god you follow is weak and small, and not the Almighty, all-knowing, all-powerful God of the Bible. And you still refuse to do this board the basic good manners of properly introducing yourself, which is the standard modus operandi of false teachers who come here.
  14. Sorry, I just can't believe that this is your so called reason for this passage being symbolic....... For starters although you say the tribes don't exist today, you are wrong. Many Israelites today know their tribe, whether you believe it or not. I have spoken to some of them, and they are certain they know. Secondly, even if "the tribes don't exist today" ( which is incorrect) why would you think God wouldn't know which tribe was which? And that if He wanted to He couldn't resurrect the tribes for this purpose? What sort of god do you follow????? This is your "proof"? That the tribes no longer exist so the passage must be symbolic? But if the passage is not symbolic then the tribes must exist....... your reasoning is circular. You are trying to prove that the tribes don't exist because the passage is symbolic, and the passage is symbolic because the tribes don't exist...... I have already shown that God refers to national Israel after the time that you say they ceased to exist (whether you accept that or not). And this passage, stating by name the tribes that are part of "the children of Israel", also proves that national Israel exists after the time that you say they ceased to exist. And by the way I can keep this up. There are plenty more passages that refer to national Israel from Acts onwards..... And you still refuse to do this board the basic good manners of properly introducing yourself, which is the standard modus operandi of false teachers who come here.
  15. Ummmmm - I just went back and I can only find 1 question and it was a stupid question which you answered yoursel, so I didn't need to. Can you give ANY EVIDENCE from the passage that it is symbolic? It isn't symbolic just because you say it is - there must be a reason for it to be considered symbolic. And why would God go to all the trouble of naming and designating the VERY TRIBES if they didn't exist in the time that God is referring to. As far as Only 144000 jews left..... Have you actually read the passage? Nowhere does it indicate that these are the ONLY israelites left..... go back and read the actual passage and report back. Let's just ask the question - if God wanted to indicate that these 144000 young men from the individual tribes of the nation of Israel, how would he have to write it to convince you? He uses the term "the children of Israel" which I contend ALWAYS refers to the Nation of Israel; He refers to each of the twelve tribes BY NAME, distinctly indicating each of the twelve individual tribes. It appears as though your only evidence for it being a "highly symbolic" passage is that you want it to be, and if it is not it proves you are 100% wrong that God is finished with the nation of Israel. Your proposition that "I'm right and you're wrong" is not evidence of any kind. Oh yeah - do you really think that God can't preserve the tribes if He so wishes? I could not follow such a limited god. I prefer the God of the bible to your weak version.
  16. Excellent - so then which tribe are you a "spiritual part" of? Rev 7 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. You deliberate misrepresented my points from the previous passage, and refused to answer the actual point, so there was no further point in continuing there. Everyone else could see my point, as evidenced by the likes of my posts. Why you could not is simply because you refuse to. So it was time to move to another passage where God refers to national Israel AFTER you say they no longer exist. So then...... how do you explain that God refers to "the tribes of the children of Israel" and then refers to each tribe BY NAME after the time that you say Israel no longer exists? And in your answer you probably need to show an instance of where the specific phrase "the children of Israel" is used to refer some group OTHER than physical Israel. It might be there, but I haven't found it yet. Why is it that God STILL refers to Israel in the end times? And you still refuse to do this board the basic good manners of properly introducing yourself, which is the standard modus operandi of false teachers who come here.
  17. You quite obviously did not read my posts properly or you would not misrepresent my posts the way you do. In any case, it is time to move on from this argument as you obviously cannot read either my responses nor the Bible correctly. I refer you to another passage: Rev 7 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. God here refers to the tribes of the children of Israel, and to his use of them in the end times. Why is it that God STILL refers to Israel in the end times? And you still refuse to do this board the basic good manners of properly introducing yourself, which is the standard modus operandi of false teachers who come here.
  18. So in other words you don't like what Paul wrote under the inspiration of God and so you choose to ignore it. No point in continuing this, as you obviously are only here to push false doctrine. And you still refuse to properly introduce yourself, which is the standard modus operandi of false teachers who come here.
  19. Let’s make this really simple so you can follow it. Rom 9:3-8 (3) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: (7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. His kinsmen according to the flesh can only be national Israel. No other option is possible. And to emphasise that fact, the Nation was adopted by God (Abraham was called from another nation), the Glory of God was revealed to the nation of Israel (To Moses, then to the nation by the plagues, deliverance from Egypt, Protection and provision in the wilderness), the Covenants were given to the Nation of Israel (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, then to the Nation as the covenant of the Law), the Nation was the ONLY NATION called to serve the Lord specifically, with Laws, rules, regulations, and commands on how to do so, and the only nation to which the promises of God were given. Then verse 5 speaks of the fathers of that nation, and that nation of whom “concerning the flesh Christ came”……. All of this is fulfilled in the Nation of Israel. Everything in verses 4 and 5 is clearly referring to the history of the nation of Israel And THEN there is the point that not all Israel is of Israel. I HAVE NEVER DENIED THAT. But if you notice, the division is then very quickly turned to refer to some of them as the children of God – this is the division WITHIN THE NATION, that there are those who are the children of the flesh (unsaved) and those who are the children of God (Saved), but the subject is ISRAEL. The point that Paul is making is that being an Israelite never saved anyone...…. The division is saved Israelites and unsaved Israelites. And to make this ABSOLUTELY PLAIN you said: “There no longer is a nation of Israel. Once Jesus came, ethnic Israel no longer served a function. Isaiah 65:8-9 tells us why God held off on destroying Judea, when he destroyed Israel after declaring He was not their God and they were not His people, Hosea 1:9. The nation of Israel is an impostor. You can call a weed a rose, it doesn't make it so. That weed is particularly noxious, very much the opposite of a rose.” You clearly said “There no longer is a nation of Israel….. And yet Paul refers to national Israel twice in the very verses you are trying to twist. How do you reconcile your statement that “There no longer is a nation of Israel” when God clearly refers to national Israel in this very passage? And you still have not done this board the basic common courtesy of introducing yourself in the intro section.
  20. This is a blatant and total misrepresentation of what I have said. Clearly Paul sees national Israel -his brethren according to the flesh, as legitimately Israel - he names them as such. National Israel is Biblically referred to as Israel twice in this passage. I have nowhere said that every reference to israel is "ethnic Israel" ( in fact I have not used that term at all). But plainly God refers to national Israel as Israel after your designated timing. You are not only twisting my words, you are also twisting Scripture.
  21. According to the Romans 9: 3-5 AND 6 God disagrees with you. If you were right, and there was no longer a nation of Israel after Jesus Came, then WHY does God refer to national Israel as Israel? It really is not that hard to understand. And you still haven't introduced yourself in the intro section...…. That also is not hard to do, nor is it hard to understand why you should do it.
  22. Oh you mean this verse 6: 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: You mean this verse where God makes a distinction between physical Israel, STILL CALLING THEM ISRAEL. Why would God refer to them as Israel, if He no longer considered them to be Israel? So this verse, like the previous ones I mentioned, STILL POSE THE PROBLEM for you that God Himself continues to make the distinction and refer to national Israel as Israel. Now are you seriously suggesting that the covenants etc are not regarding national Israel, "of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came"...? 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. You need to understand context, because vs 3, vs 4, and vs 5 are all referring to national Israel. Paul designates it in vs 3, and national Israel is ABSOLUTELY still the subject and the people through whom Christ came. You cannot change the context at a whim.
  23. Oh yeah, you still haven't done the basic thing of good manners and introduced yourself in the intro section. I don't think I have ever joined a forum that didn't have an introduction section, and it was simply expected as part of decent forum etiquette that any new member posted a formal introduction post. In some fora I have been a part of you could not post anywhere except the intro section until after you had posted an intro post. This is the only place I can remember where so many people not only don't automatically post an intro, but actually refuse to do so when asked. In the overwhelming majority of cases where people refuse to post an intro, it turns out that they are only here to cause trouble. Just an observation.....
  24. I didn't need to quote just one more verse, because it doesn't do what you suggest. The plain fact is that God, through the Apostle Paul, refers to the nation of Israel as Israel AFTER your appointed time of Him so called rejecting them. God still consider national Israel to be Israel, REGARDLESS of the next verse. I am not by the way rejecting the rest of the passage, just pointing out that the next verse and continuing do NOT nullify the point of verses 3 - 5.
  25. Romans 9 3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Why would the Apostle Paul, under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit, refer to his kinsmen according to the flesh as Israelites, if God was now done with national Israel and had replaced them? Yet Paul very specifically denote his kinsmen according to the flesh as "Israelites".

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