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Independent Fundamental Baptist
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Posts posted by DaveW

  1. Every day I check the church website there are junk feedback entries - between 8 and 16 at least once a day and sometimes twice. Usually they are trying to tell me how to make squillions from bitcoin, sometimes trying to sell me pharmaceuticals cheap, sometimes offering to be my wife.

    I also get emails from all sorts trying the same things and also trying to give me a few million that was left to them for a good cause by their great uncle who was the treasurer of some place or another.

    Thankfully I can just delete them, but it does take time, and it is annoying. 

    And because they come from all sorts of different emails there is no way to block them.

    So part of my day is spent getting rid of useless junk I didn't ask for.

    21st century problems...…..

  2. On 3/4/2020 at 5:02 PM, TomB said:

    When the Scriptures says, They


    shall look upon me who they have pierced”, only one soldier and.those that witnessed the crucifixion could possibly be included in that prophesy. Jesus said the day is coming that all who are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of man and come forth. On that great day Christ shall give a shout and a roar as it states in Jer. 25. This is definitely the last day. The trump is also mentioned. This is the rapture for we which are alive and remain shall not proceed those which have fallen asleep or “passed away” as some would say. So even those that pierced him will hear his voice. Do you remember when Jesus said in Jn 11 “Lazarus come forth” and although he was dead four days already he heard and came forth. On the last day those Roman soldiers that pierced Jesus will hear his voice and also “every eye shall see him”. Even all those that have fallen asleep since the beginning of the world. For the harvest is ripe as it says in Revelation and have patience for he waits for the first and the last fruits. In your patience possess ye your souls. ”That day is great. It is even the time of Jacobs trouble but he shall be saved out of it”.  That day is a day of darkness and gloominess a day of wastness and desolation. A day of.   Let me copy it word for word...

    That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
    16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
    17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

    18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.   

    Jesus said finally in Luke 21:36 pray always that yes me counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and stand before the Son  of man.   
    when he comes in his glory he shall separate the sheep from the goats and place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on the left....  

    So this second question you have I’m not quite sure what is being requested. The Word of God is far more concerned about the gospel and salvation than any particular invasion of a country. The Scriptures speak in parables that must be interpreted.  Remember Jesus on the road to Emmaus after his resurrection he expounded to them in all the Scriptures from Moses to all the prophets the things concerning himself. Can you find Jesus in every Old Testament book of the Bible? He’s there because He not only spoke the Word he Is the Word. And beware lest you stumble and wrestle with the Scriptures because they can be and are a stumbling block to many as both Jesus and Peter and other prophets warned about.  “Jesus, why do you speak to them in parables?” Did he say so they can understand better? No! He said so in hearing they will not hear”  Verily thou art  a God that hide the himself oh God of Israel, the Savior.  
    I could go on but I hope this helps. Thank you for your inquiry. 



    You are making claims that are not proven by Bible verses, making vague references to vague passages, where you say they mean one thing, but there is no correlation of what you are saying with the vague references you give.

    I have been able to find the verses and passages that you refer to because I am able to use a search engine, but with each verse I identify, it doesn't say what you are suggesting.

    And you join passages together that have no reason to be joined together.

    If you were serious about stating your case, then you would at least give proper verse references for each of your claims, but it seems to me that you don't want people to find the passages you refer to in case they actually read them and find that they don't actually say what you are saying.

    At one point you say "Let me copy it word for word..." but then you leave off the reference, and the passage has no apparent link to anything you are saying - at least as far as I can tell.

    You talk about the harvest is ripe, but give no reference to it, but have you actually read Revelation 14? (verse 15 for anyone reading this, because He doesn't want to tell you). It is nto relevant to your point.


    Classic example of what I am talking about (but this time he at least gives a reference!):

    " quote from TomB:

    Jesus said finally in Luke 21:36 pray always that yes me counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and stand before the Son  of man.   
    when he comes in his glory he shall separate the sheep from the goats and place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on the left....   "

    Note that quoting in this way is implying that the verses are somehow joined together - he is almost trying to make it look like line 3 is a continuation from the end of line 2. THEY ARE NOT EVEN IN THE SAME BOOK!

     (Note that I am not criticising the spelling mistakes - we all do that.)

    The complete verse is:

    Luk 21:36
    (36)  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    I don't know why he chose to leave out the "Watch ye therefore" but he did.

    I will however say that the verse he quoted has nothing to do with goats or sheep as far as Luke is concerned. If there is a link between these two subjects as he implies, it is not obvious from the Luke passage.

    In fact if you look up the sheep/goats reference you find the only reference to goats and sheep being separated to be in:

    Mat 25:31-33
    (31)  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    (32)  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    (33)  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    I will note again that he refused to share that reference - I think because it has nothing to do with Luke as he is trying to imply.

    Folks, please don't listen to this guy until he starts to properly quote or at least reference his passages, and explain the links that he is suggesting, because he is joining things together that the Bible simply does not put together. And THEN, check his references - as you should with EVERY PERSON who presumes to teach you about the Bible.









  3. 27 minutes ago, weary warrior said:

    Dave, if Cloud is talking breaking fellowship with brethren over the issue of pre-trib / post-trib rapture, it is inappropriate. That's Mike's bottom line point, and its a fair point.

    The indignation being displayed here is disproportionate to the thought communicated. 

    So somehow I am the bad guy for pointing out that someone is blatantly misrepresenting someone else?

    What Mike has accused Cloud of is simply not true.

    But I don't care to argue about any further. I pointed it out, and it is done. Fire away at this messenger all you like.......


  4. And again, you are choosing to smear Cloud on this matter by suggesting that he holds pre-trib and "the fundamentals" as salvation matters - which he doesn't. 

    Separating over a false doctrine taught does not necessarily mean that he is saying it is a salvation matter.

    Following the doctrinal teachings of a woman would also be a fairly weighty matter, but not necessarily a salvation issue - but I would separate from someone who follows the doctrinal teachings of a woman.


    You really do appear to be trying to paint Cloud with a brush that is not of his making.

  5. 5 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

    And I agree with you completely. While I really like David Cloud and a lot of how teachings, I am disturbed a bit over his insistence not only that the pre-trib rapture is CLEAR biblical doctrine, but that it is to be considered a fundamental of the faith, meaning, if I understand Fundamentalism properly, that it is a salvation issue, and that anyone who is NOT pre-trib must be separated from, that is even more disturbing. 

    This is wrong.

    The "Fundamentals" are not all associated with salvation and it is a gross misrepresentation for you to argue it in this way.

    Two offices is a fundamental but has nothing to do with salvation.

    Two ordinances is a fundamental but has nothing to do with salvation (how they are observed does, but not the fact there are only two).

    There are others but you get the picture.

    For you to characterise Cloud in this way is totally improper.

  6. Revelation 18 notes "trumpeters" (shall be heard no more in thee), so we can safely surmise that up to that point trumpeters were heard, and that means that trumpets had to be around.  But trumpets are not mentioned again in Scripture after that point, so the last trump was done away with just prior to Revelation 18:22.

    That would have to be "the last trump", surely.

    And the last mention of "horn" is in Revelation 17, but I don't think those ones "trumped" at all....... different kind of horn.🤣

    I think have shown that the last trump was not one of the judgement trumpets at all, but some unknown bloke playing just before Revelation 18.

    I think I may have trumped you all.

    Unless of course the last trump spoken of is Donald - does he have a son to carry on the name, or is he "the last Trump"?

  7. I should add a couple of things: 

    1. My wife does far more than many Pastor's wives that I know. Everyone is different and I know several Pastor's wives with severe health issues which restrict them. They would do more if they could. But I know of some Pastor's wives who put 100% into being the best wife and mother they can be, and they cannot be derided for that either. My wife seems to find the energy to do it all - I have to tell her to rest and then it is under sufferance, which is why the accusations were so hurtful to her.

    2. Whilst there are no quals that I have ever found, I do think that a Pastor's wife, being his help meet for him, should do more than your average "Mature Christian Lady".

    3. The lady involved is obviously having a hard time herself right now (hurting people hurt people - it is true) and I did not give her a piece of my mind partly because I knew about some of this (and partly because I can't go giving away pieces of my mind - I have precious little left right now!). I am not even sure she knows or understands what she did.


    It really was better here than...…… direct to her. I needed a place to vent that would not harm her, and I do appreciate those of you who were no doubt inclined towards blasting me holding off on that course.

  8. You know there are times when you really shouldn't answer right away?


    A lady who has been at our church for about two years (not a member) and comes from an eclectic church background (lots of baggage) has just called my wife to accuse her of not being available outside church, and to complain that another lady is always reporting back to the pastor (me), and a few other things.

    My wife just rang me upset as anything. She could not get a word in edgeways while this lady just unloaded.

    Now my wife feels terrible "because she has not been doing enough". My wife is wonderful but she wears things like this heavily, and so this will affect her for a while now.

    I want to ring this lady and give her an piece of my mind, but I fear I don't have enough mind to spare for things like this.

    It seems to me that loads of people don't realise that a pastor's wife is not a pastor but the help meet for the pastor, and as such is not is a position to bear this kind of thing.

    There you go. I THINK I have vented enough now.

    Thanks for listening........😊

  9. We have a bible institute that is taught by local pastors.

    That means that a man can stay serving at the church where he was saved, grew, and was called to service, but still get a rounded "education".

    Interestingly, of the four pastors currently involved we have one who was "big Bible college" (Heartland actually), one who was "small local college", one who was "evening Bible institute", and one was "direct mentored" by his pastor (with no "formal bible college education at all).

    We have an ongoing discussion about the differences,  but all of us accept that options are useful and each of us has a valid preparation.




  10. On 1/23/2020 at 10:08 AM, HappyChristian said:

    .....and bread (sorry, we didn't have any buns hehe).....


    This was a national debate over here not so long ago. Bread or roll.......

    For the record, I prefer a snag angled from corner to corner of a square piece of bread, topped with fried onion, and drizzled in tomato sauce, then fold the bread around it all.

    But if I get given a bun, I am gracious enough to consume it without grumbling.

    And I am serious about it being a national debate - news stories, stations taking votes of their viewers/listeners, even the politicians getting involved.

    But everyone knew it was just for fun.





  11. First point: this is a kjv forum. It is in the rules. Please only quote from the KJV.

    Secondly, Jesus was very plainly speaking present tense using the terms everlasting (in these verses) and eternal in respect to salvation life.

    Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

    Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 

    No amount of maneuvering by you can change this fact.

    Either it is eternal or it never was..........

    It is very simple.

    I believe on Him, I have HAVE eternal life. 

    End of story.

    If it can be lost, it is not, was not, and never will be eternal nor everlasting.






    So in other words you, like everyone else I have asked, cannot answer the simple matter of the names God chose to use for salvation life, but choose instead to sidestep, redefine, and ignore the plain and basic truth.

    Eternal life cannot be eternal if it ends for any reason.

    Everlasting life isn't and NEVER WAS everlasting if ends for any reason.

    And OF COURSE we want Scriptures for your points. We are not interested in Calvin's lies and false doctrines.

  13. 3 hours ago, Gregg said:

    Salvation can be lost but it is not trivial.  We have it within ourselves to either reject where God leads or follow where He leads; to fall away or endure; to disobey or to obey; to love God and fellow man or to tolerate God and fellow man.  The warnings in scripture are many and clear.  When one espouses this doctrine, there is always a misunderstanding of God's sovereignty, our receiving of God's promises, or the nature of God.  Even the underlying Greek in scripture refutes the idea.  Friends in Christ, seek to remain faithful and follow where the Holy Spirit leads for He will not lead you wrong whereas man often does.  God Bless......

    Answer a few questions for me please: 

    1. What names does God use for "Salvation life"?  (I will give you these ones) There are two main ones: Everlasting life, and Eternal life.

    2. If something is everlasting, what does that mean exactly?

    3. If something is eternal, what does that means exactly?

    4. If something can end, was it EVER everlasting?

    5. If something can end, was it EVER eternal?


    With all the verse arguments that go on, sometimes people forget the simple facts.

    God, not men, calls Salvation life both everlasting and eternal. These names can only properly be used to refer to something that was, is, and always be eternal or everlasting.

    If God says something is eternal, and then it ends - for any reason whatsoever - then that makes God a liar.

    If God says something is everlasting, and then it ends - for any reason whatsoever - then that makes God a liar.


    Now remember, these are not my names for salvation life, but God's names.

    So one last question: Why would God use terms that indicate that salvation life is both eternal and everlasting, if that salvation life can be lost in way for any reason? He would be lying in His use of those terms.

    I know I haven't quoted any verses "Proving" you can't lose your salvation, but you all the verses I am talking about:


    Mat 25:46
    (46)  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
    Mar 10:30
    (30)  But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

    Joh 3:15
    (15)  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    Joh 3:16
    (16)  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    Joh 3:36
    (36)  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Joh 4:36
    (36)  And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

    Joh 5:24
    (24)  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Joh 5:39
    (39)  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Joh 6:27
    (27)  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

    I could of course go on, but you get the idea.

    And of course I know this is a really simplistic argument, but if it is so simple, then it should be a breeze to answer - but no one has ever explained it away to me.

    Eternal and everlasting are God's names for salvation life, and if salvation can be lost, then it is not everlasting nor eternal and NEVER WAS.


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