DaveW

I just wanted to add to this.

This is the record of the first Lord's table, and it is intersting to note who was invited.

Matt 26

20  Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

 21  And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

 22  And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?

 23  And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.

 24  The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

 25  Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

 26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. note

 27  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

 28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

If you notice, Jesus sat down "with the twelve". It is very specific: not just "the disciples", but the twelve. 

There was certainly a restriction on the first one.

Hmmm -

Great Commission was given before Pentecost. (Matt 28:18-20)

Lord's supper was established before Pentecost. (Matt 26:26-29)

Church discipline was established before Pentecost. (Matt 18:15-17)

Are these all church things, or things applicable to ONLY believers and not the church at all?

Church discipline is something that happens WITHIN a church - what would be the point to Jesus giving this instruction if there was no way to apply it? Seems a bit random....

Is the Lord's Supper a church ordinance or an ordinance to be done by any believer outside of the church?

Great Commission? Teach (people to become a follower of Christ), Baptise(?), then teach them how to honour the Lord and live for Him.

Anyone can show someone how to be saved - fair enough.

Who has the authority to baptise? Anyone, or a (local) church? Is baptism a church ordinance or is it not?

Who is equipped to teach others? Do we see this sort of teaching anywhere else?

2Ti 2:2  And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

All of these things are Church ordinances and commands, and ALL WERE GIVEN BEFORE PENTENCOST.

Why so much instruction about how a church works and what a church should do, if there was no such thing in existence?

And why do we not see the disciples question the Lord about "This church thing that you speak of"? Maybe because they knew exactly what a church was.

And to say because they had no place to call home they couldn't be a church is a bit silly.

The church that I used to attend a few years ago met for one service in a high school, another service in a primary school about 10 miles away in a different town, and sometimes in people's houses because other places were not available - were we only as church when we could use our regular venue?

I had always thought that a church was defined by being a group of saved people who were joined together by baptism to serve and honour the Lord in an organised fashion.

Normally (but not always) that group had a Pastor, and an organised structure and service.

Well, the 12 had a Pastor (Jesus), they had an organised structure (Judas was the treasurer), they were all as far as we can tell baptised, and they were joined together to serve and honour the Lord. They didn't have a building, but so what?

How is this not a church by anyone's standard? That it is not specifically NAMED as a church is somewhat irrelevant - it has all the attributes of a church.

And there was much specific instruction and command given to that church.

If the church started at Pentecost, then baptism, the Lord's supper, and church discipline ALL were not given to the church, and all are not under the authority of the church, simply because when these were established or commanded the church (by that estimation) was not in existence to receive such.

Universal church? Not in the Bible. The Lord talks about "all saints", the "household of God" and a few other terms that include every saved person regardless of where they are, but the term "church" is never clearly applied to that group.

But to say that Jim is talking universal because he believes in a church without a building?????? Nonsense.

(This was meant to be a short statement, but it grew....... )

My only addition is that whilst the Lord did say "I will build my church" this does not necessarily mean that the church wasn't already in existence.

For instance, I am in the middle of building a house. An enemy comes to me and says "You will never finish that house". To which I may rightly enough reply "I will build my house sir, and your discouragement will not stop me".

You see, whilst the building is not yet finished the phrase "I will build my house" can be used in reference to the completion of the task, not necessarily only to the beginning of the task.

Aside from that one minor point, I agree with study. Thanks!

My Daughters are learning Mandarin as part of their schooling.

They will find this particularly interesting.

Would you mind if I copied this to share with my church - maybe on the noticeboard?

Is this yours, or should I credit someone else?

Thanks,

Dave.