rancher824

I once heard a man preach on Jonah. When he got to Jonah 1:3 KJV
“But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord , and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord” he went into how any time the Bible says “went down to” it was speaking of sin. His whole sermon was based on this statement. After church I made sure there wasn’t anyone around and I asked him if I had understood that anywhere the phrase “went down to” was used it was referring to sin. He confirmed that I had understood correctly. I then showed him John 2:12 KJV “After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.” This verse is of course speaking of Jesus, so there could not be and sin involved. My point in mentioning this is that we need to be careful not to build a belief, or sermon on a single word or even phrase. We need to study the context and see if there is anything there. 
 

I once heard a man preach on Jonah. When he got to Jonah 1:3 KJV
“But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord , and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord” he went into how any time the Bible says “went down to” it was speaking of sin. His whole sermon was based on this statement. After church I made sure there wasn’t anyone around and I asked him if I had understood that anywhere the phrase “went down to” was used it was referring to sin. He confirmed that I had understood correctly. I then showed him John 2:12 KJV “After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.” This verse is of course speaking of Jesus, so there could not be and sin involved. My point in mentioning this is that we need to be careful not to build a belief, or sermon on a single word or even phrase. We need to study the context and see if there is anything there. 
 

I once heard a man preach on Jonah. When he got to Jonah 1:3 KJV
“But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord , and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord” he went into how any time the Bible says “went down to” it was speaking of sin. His whole sermon was based on this statement. After church I made sure there wasn’t anyone around and I asked him if I had understood that anywhere the phrase “went down to” was used it was referring to sin. He confirmed that I had understood correctly. I then showed him John 2:12 KJV “After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.” This verse is of course speaking of Jesus, so there could not be and sin involved. My point in mentioning this is that we need to be careful not to build a belief, or sermon on a single word or even phrase. We need to study the context and see if there is anything there. 
 

There is one in Spokane, called faith Baptist that we really like. It is about an hour from Ava, so a bit of a drive. But they might get in contact with them and find somewhere that they suggest. 

As I mentioned in the last post, the Arab man was offended that someone offered him a women’s robe. There are/were differences. Things can be very similar while having very certain differences. And they may be a difference that someone from another culture would not see. In the instance with Arab I mentioned, the one telling about it said he could not tell the difference. It was stated by one poster a few pages back (don’t remember her name) that she worked making pants and that there were different cuts depending if it was women’s or men’s. It is obvious the high priest wore a robe. In Revelation it says the saints are seen in white robes. How is it hard to believe robes were the normal wear. We cannot say pants are what we should wear, so they wore pants, so we know we should wear pants. That is circular. It is a common belief that Jews wore robes or Tunics which are very much the same. With that being the common belief, how can we say I don’t want it to be because it disagrees with what I think, so you should accept it. As for it being a hill to die on, it is a very important part of the discussion. If the men wore robes, then we have to ask when it became wrong for men to wear them. What and when culture can change the rules. How many need to accept the change before it is acceptable. How long it has to have changed before being acceptable. 

In 2 Samuel 6 we find David leaping and dancing before the Lord. He comes home to a very unhappy wife, Michal. She tells him he was shamelessly uncovering himself before the maidens as one of the vain fellows. Now if most men were wearing pants or breeches, how was he uncovering himself? 
in judges 3:16 Ehud strapped a 1 cubit knife under his clothes on his thigh. Now if he was wearing pants and a shirt this would either be impossible to get to, or obvious to all around him. But if he had a robe with a skirt, it would work out nicely. 
you read the description of the garments of Aaron where the linen breeches are mentioned, and you also find a robe. The robe would have hang down to around his knees. So with him climbing the steps, he needed something under the robe for modesty. The breeches were in fact under garments. Now Bro Jerry, if you truly believe these could be undergarments that over time became pants ( I think that’s what you were saying) and that they pertain to men as pants do today, does this also mean you do not believe in women wearing undergarments that would in any way resemble these? I don’t mean this as a vulgar question, but that is the logical conclusion. Also, can you give me historical writings that agree that they did not all wear robes? I know I have heard stories of a Arab man getting something spilt on his robe and someone offering him a clean robe, but he was offended that they offered him a women’s robe. I had a man once tell me that even Wikipedia said that Jews wore pants. I went to the article he provided and a little ways down it said that (and this is not word for word as I don’t want to take the time to look it up) for the last 100 years the Jews have dressed much like the western world, but before that they dressed much like the Bedouin Arabs. Trying to put our culture onto the Jews of old is arrogant. And as has been pointed out, our culture has changed a lot in recent years. 

Congratulations!!!

Correct. Paul was out of due time. He was an exception for a special job. He is the only exception mentioned. And him being an exception puts it in a place of apostolic succession makes no sense. Because then it would be the rule, not an exception. 

Good to see you as well. 

I was here years ago, but a busy life has kept me away. Decided to drop by and say hello. I searched and see several of the ones that were here have not been on for several years either. I doubt I will post much, as life is very busy, but I enjoy reading the posts. So to reintroduce myself. I was raised in a pastors home. Have live within an hour of the same place most of my life. When I was here before I wasn’t yet a father/ announced that we were expecting and received prayers when the pregnancy was going rough. And those prayers were graciously answered.  Now I need more prayers as  I am the father of a teenager ? and an 11 year old.  It is crazy how fast life has been flying by. 

I was here years ago, but a busy life has kept me away. Decided to drop by and say hello. I searched and see several of the ones that were here have not been on for several years either. I doubt I will post much, as life is very busy, but I enjoy reading the posts. So to reintroduce myself. I was raised in a pastors home. Have live within an hour of the same place most of my life. When I was here before I wasn’t yet a father/ announced that we were expecting and received prayers when the pregnancy was going rough. And those prayers were graciously answered.  Now I need more prayers as  I am the father of a teenager ? and an 11 year old.  It is crazy how fast life has been flying by. 

Very good points. In my case, the scriptures say to honor father and mother. Any of us that are blessed to have been born into a God fearing/loving family will have our roots in what our parents teach us. The same is true that those who find Christ later in their lives will most surely have someone they love and respect that will build that base. So long as we are trying the spirits on our own we can come to the same conclusion without just being a photo copy. And that is where we need to be. Ever listening to those who came before us. But, as those at Berea, we should be checking what they say against scripture to be sure it is truth. Always amazes me how that the things they were checking came from the apostle Paul. He being the instrument God used to give us so much of the New Testament. And they were greatly commended for questioning him. We should always push brethren to check what we are saying and rejoice when the come to correct us in love, even if we have to then guide them to the truth they are missing. Not get offended by them. And we should always have an open mind that even though the Bible is never wrong, I can be wrong in my understanding. 

Very good points. In my case, the scriptures say to honor father and mother. Any of us that are blessed to have been born into a God fearing/loving family will have our roots in what our parents teach us. The same is true that those who find Christ later in their lives will most surely have someone they love and respect that will build that base. So long as we are trying the spirits on our own we can come to the same conclusion without just being a photo copy. And that is where we need to be. Ever listening to those who came before us. But, as those at Berea, we should be checking what they say against scripture to be sure it is truth. Always amazes me how that the things they were checking came from the apostle Paul. He being the instrument God used to give us so much of the New Testament. And they were greatly commended for questioning him. We should always push brethren to check what we are saying and rejoice when the come to correct us in love, even if we have to then guide them to the truth they are missing. Not get offended by them. And we should always have an open mind that even though the Bible is never wrong, I can be wrong in my understanding. 

I was here years ago, but a busy life has kept me away. Decided to drop by and say hello. I searched and see several of the ones that were here have not been on for several years either. I doubt I will post much, as life is very busy, but I enjoy reading the posts. So to reintroduce myself. I was raised in a pastors home. Have live within an hour of the same place most of my life. When I was here before I wasn’t yet a father/ announced that we were expecting and received prayers when the pregnancy was going rough. And those prayers were graciously answered.  Now I need more prayers as  I am the father of a teenager ? and an 11 year old.  It is crazy how fast life has been flying by. 

I was here years ago, but a busy life has kept me away. Decided to drop by and say hello. I searched and see several of the ones that were here have not been on for several years either. I doubt I will post much, as life is very busy, but I enjoy reading the posts. So to reintroduce myself. I was raised in a pastors home. Have live within an hour of the same place most of my life. When I was here before I wasn’t yet a father/ announced that we were expecting and received prayers when the pregnancy was going rough. And those prayers were graciously answered.  Now I need more prayers as  I am the father of a teenager ? and an 11 year old.  It is crazy how fast life has been flying by. 

I was here years ago, but a busy life has kept me away. Decided to drop by and say hello. I searched and see several of the ones that were here have not been on for several years either. I doubt I will post much, as life is very busy, but I enjoy reading the posts. So to reintroduce myself. I was raised in a pastors home. Have live within an hour of the same place most of my life. When I was here before I wasn’t yet a father/ announced that we were expecting and received prayers when the pregnancy was going rough. And those prayers were graciously answered.  Now I need more prayers as  I am the father of a teenager ? and an 11 year old.  It is crazy how fast life has been flying by. 

Good to see you, rancher!

I’ve not been here in several years, and won’t be around a lot because of a busy life. But I saw this thread and thought it interesting. Years ago I was in a several month long disagreement with my then fiancé, now wife’s pastor over something to do with our up coming marriage. It was a huge ordeal for both of us that ended in my pastor/father officiating over it instead of him. Anyway, as we drew near to the end of the debating, one day he said that to me. “You only believe that because your father does!”  The funny thing to me looking back, within 5 minutes he turns to another man, several years younger than me and asks him what true baptists believe. Now first off, though there are more independent Baptist that agree with him than I would like, the vast majority agree with me. Secondly, and most comical part, the man he called over was his son. He proved I only believed what my father told me to by using his son to prove me wrong. 

Absolutely!

Also if we look to our past, even our not too distant past, we see that by the time youth entered the teen years they were expected to be young men, not little boys. Back then there were many who joined the army or navy at 14 or 15 years old, many left home to work and begin their own lives, while those who remained at home were a busy part of working the family farm or business, or they got work elsewhere to help support their family.

A couple generations ago we taught children to become adults. By the time they were in their early teens most youth were ready to take on many adult responsibilities and were expected to conduct themselves as young men and women, not as children.

Today we teach children to remain children, to hold onto immaturity, to do all they can to avoid responsibility, to act like little children throughout their teens, to carry immaturity and lack of responsibility over into their 20s. Among an ever growing number this carries over into their 30s and byond.

This situation with the 14 year old was a bad one but he handled it well. A 14 year old boy should be expected to protect his family, to be the man of the house when dad isn't present. He did the right thing. Unless "social workers" put a bunch of garbage into these childrens minds, the siblings of that 14 year old will remember when possible tragedy was averted by their brothers brave action.

It really doesn't matter what one "prays" if they don't understand what they are "praying" and they don't mean the words of the "prayer" in their heart.

This is the whole problem behind those who push for someone to say a "sinners prayer" rather than biblically presenting them with the Gospel, allowing the Holy Ghost to do His job of convicting them, and seeing whether or not they respond by accepting the conviction or pushing it aside.

We lead no one to Christ simply by getting them to say a "sinners prayer" no matter what words are in that "prayer". One is saved only after they have been convicted by the Holy Ghost, repented and been born again in Christ. Typically, one is saved in their heart before they ever utter a prayer. It's that heart change that saves a person, not a prayer.

We do great damage if we push someone to say a "sinners prayer" when they have not submitted to the conviction of the Holy Ghost.

Oh,I know, I know!! "We love you preacher, oh, yes, we do. We don't love anyone as much as you. When you're not with us, we're blue. Oh, preacher, we love you." Lovely song by the girls (not!)...and everyone else clapping and applauding as he enters....

As far as blind loyalty goes....remember back when things exploded there? People began wearing those 100% for Hyles buttons? The church I was in at the time hosted a ladies conference every year, with ladies from First Baptist doing the speaking. Well...my pastor at the time was called by JH and asked if he was 100% in agreement with JH. My pastor told him that he wasn't 100% in agreement with anyone but God, so no. And JH pulled the ladies from coming to the conference. THAT's a demand for blind loyalty.

robmac - I worked with Bro. Boyd and Randy Taylor for quite a while (as well as Bro. Araiza, Bro. Corle, etc). Blind loyalty does play a part in their actions. For a time I worked in the office of the camp. When I knew that it was time for me to leave, I told Bro. Boyd I had to go. He was not happy, and he looked at me and said that there was such a thing as loyalty...I told him that if I had learned anything from him in my years working with him, it was to be loyal to God first and foremost. That took him by surprise, and he gave me his blessing.

As to repentance being a work in JH's mind...there was an evangelist who went in to see him (one that, if I named him, many people on here would know him) about it. And that evangelist quit preaching repentance as a result of what was said to him.

Anytime wrongs are shown about favorite men (we call them great men of God...isn't that rather dyslexic? Shouldn't it rather be "men of a great God?") someone brings up that they've done more for the Lord than any of the critics - so, his wrong should, ipso facto, be excused or ignored. Yes, he did a lot of good. But he also did a lot of harm once he began thinking too highly of himself.

The idea that the preacher is untouchable, never wrong, never to be questioned came from somewhere...guess who taught it? To all his preacher boys...who in turn went out and taught it to their churches...Granted, too many people are too quick to criticize the pastor for anything. That ought not be. But the pastor, even though a leader, is not above the people of his church. And if he's wrong, the people of the church have a right, under God, to question it. If it ain't Bible, it doesn't matter who's presenting it - it's wrong.

I see in your Bio you state:

came here looking for answers, not to be slammed down for daring to use a Bible other than King James.

Remember that our growth is directly effected by the offense we take and hold onto. I also have a very strong aversion to many of the attitudes presented on this forum concerning some IFB doctrinal points, but as John stated:



If the Lord has not yet convicted you in your heart concerning the Bible you use then keep on using it!!! No one can force a doctrinal point on you and you can not judge a group by the attitudes and actions of a few individuals. I myself used a NKJV (they hate this one just as much) for years in a staunch IFB church and refused to budge until through study and heart felt conviction I was convinced otherwise. Many IFB's use there "separatism" and "doctrinal megalomania" as a crutch to support some very way off doctrines based on personal preference. Please do not use these to judge the rest of us and allow your heart to soften and your skin to thicken - you need very thick skin here sometimes as many like to and to and many of us just take it with a and allow God to do His thing. So I would hang around and learn a thing or two - always testing it with the Word and just ignore the die hards that could learn a thing or two about charity and compassion. And remember this too, the written word can seem a lot harder than a friendly face and spoken voice - some come across hard in their writing but aren't all that bad in person.

God Bless and trust in the Lord and He will guide you.

Divorce is permissable due to fornication - Jesus said so. It's a real shame that VICTIMS are considered to have hardened hearts in so many Christian's minds.

The divorce requisites from the OT (the ones Jesus was referencing) were not simply fornication. All a man needed was simply that he wasn't pleased with his wife. And anyone who has ever been married knows that there are a number of things that spouses can do that displease each other. I know someone who locked his wife out of the house because she didn't want to cook something he wanted her to. Granted, she should have just done it, but my lands - talk about overreaction! Had he lived under Jewish law, he could have divorced her. Of course he didn't, but it is an example of a husband being displeased. Since he lives under grace (as do we all), only fornication would allow divorce. Per Jesus. (FTR he didn't divorce her. They had a marvelous marriage - after he matured - several kids and grandkids before she went to be with the Lord)

JESUS is the one Who added "except for fornication." Not someone's emotions. God the Son Himself. And then God the Holy Spirit told Paul that if the unbelieving one wants to depart to LET him...and there is no bondage in such case.

Jerry, absolutely, one's emotions are not to trump God's Word. Neither is man's opinion. God's Word is sufficient.

Referring to some previous posts about divorce being beneficial or not...

My parents were divorced when I was 3. He was a whoremonger (and ended up having 5 wives total) and he tried to kill my Mom. I realize that some on here would say my mother was a horrible sinner because she left my father, but there isn't anyone on this forum who wouldn't have done the same thing - no matter what your belief on the exception clause is. No-one in their right mind would stay with a spouse who has tried to kill them and is a major threat to their children.

My Dad was divorced as well. He had 3 boys with his first wife. And he was in the Navy - served in Vietnam. And she honored her vows to him while he was in Nam by getting pregnant...and then trying to pass the child off as his so she could get support.

My Mom was saved at a young age, but wasn't taught anything. God was merciful to her in ways that would take a long time to list. And he was merciful to us. How? Yes, we suffered the pain of divorce - that is something that children never get over. But God is gracious. And He sent another man into our lives. My Dad.

My Dad wasn't perfect - he was raised in a pentecostal pastor's home, so he had some mixed up teachings. But God was gracious and brought him to Himself. And my parents did the best they could with us.

My Dad died a month ago. He went to be with Jesus. And I'll tell you this much: his death has left a bigger void in my life than the divorce did so many years ago.

To say that there is always another choice is plain ignorance. There is not always another choice. And when divorce happens, those involved are hurting and need compassion not a spanking. Granted, there is sin in divorce. But many times there is an innocent victim as well.

I'm thinking of several women I know who tried with everything they had (including prayer and fasting) to keep their marriages together. But the spouses weren't interested. And these same people had no protection if they remained married to their spouses. Yes, God is protection, but we need to be realistic and admit that there are evil people who will not respond to God or His wooing. Such was the case of my biological father. He promised to return and kill my mother. Her protection? LEAVING. Leaving him, leaving the home there, leaving the state, and leaving the marriage. And God blessed and protected her doing that. You can doubt that all you want, but I lived through it, so I know wherewith I speak.

To make blanket statements that there is always an option is inaccurate. Else God wouldn't have said to allow the unbelieving spouse to depart (and depart my biological father did when he decided to pursue strange women and beat my mother; depart my dad's first wife did when she decided she was going to sleep with at least one other man and bear his child [she married him right away]).

I don't accept that the exception clause was only for the betrothal period. Putting away was a major shame in those days - an ending of the marriage. We can fine line it all we want and say the marriage wasn't consummated, so it wasn't a real marriage, she wasn't his complete wife, etc. But Joseph didn't want to shame Mary, so he was going to put her away privily. Divorce is divorce - whether or not the marriage is consummated. And God said "except it be for fornication," and then later said "let him depart." There are more ways than one to depart a marriage.

I've never heard of bars referring to "Ladies Night Out" but have heard and seen signs (as I've driven by...don't anyone go hyper and think I'm stopping in to these places!) that call it "Ladies Night" (and that is true in every area of the country where I've lived). If it bothered you, you could re-name it to Mother's Night Out - but then you run into the problem of it being discriminatory to those who aren't mothers. "Ladies Night Out" describes what you are doing. The ladies are going out - and it is highly doubtful that people who hear that term would jump to the conclusion that you all are drinking and dancing.

Yes, the world has co-opted many things. Kinda like the RCC has co-opted some terminology we use (like born again...). Does that mean we stop using the terms? No. We do need to use discernment as we speak, because the Bible ways we are to minister grace to the hearers of our words. But if we were to stop using all the terminology that the world co-opts, we'd be out of terms pretty quickly.


Absolutely, Jerry!

The term "mad" is a euphemism, now, for crazy (or maybe it's the other way around) - also known as mental illness. As used in scripture, it also meant the same thing: a deranged mind. Sin has resulted in many things, and one of those is minds that are not whole. While much of so-called mental illness is the direct result of sin in the person's life, it is also a fact that there are problems due to chemical imbalance in the brain. That is a general result of sin being in the world. And it does happen. I do believe completely that it is easy to plop a diagnosis on a person when what is needed is character adjustment. But there are times when there are genuine problems. And the problems are often exacerbated when Christians tell other Christians that they don't need this or that medicine, that their problem is a result of personal sin and lack of faith in God to take care of it.

It so easy for us to sit in judgment of someone else. The Bible tells us to be careful of that. We are to "judge RIGHTEOUS judgment." Unfortunately, that doesn't usually happen. We usually pounce on people, proclaiming that because they do or say something WE deem wrong they are in sin. The Bible is our guide, but too often we add to that guide. I believe Jesus called it traditions of men...