Standing Firm In Christ

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

When Jesus was speaking of the new wine (neos oinos)/new bottles, He was not speaking of allowing wine to ferment.  Rather, He was speaking of preserving the wine in its unfermented state... both the wine, and the wine bottle are preserved.

Old skins had the tendency to crack and tear due to age.  The fact that Jesus did not say old wine was put in bottles shows it was not an aged wine.  Men put freshly pressed grape juice, known as wine in that day, in new bottles to preserve it in its unfermented state.

 "purposely sterilized," "specific yeast is introduced to the pressed grapes"
In other words,... man's intervention is needed to make the alcohol.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

When Jesus was speaking of the new wine (neos oinos)/new bottles, He was not speaking of allowing wine to ferment.  Rather, He was speaking of preserving the wine in its unfermented state... both the wine, and the wine bottle are preserved.

Old skins had the tendency to crack and tear due to age.  The fact that Jesus did not say old wine was put in bottles shows it was not an aged wine.  Men put freshly pressed grape juice, known as wine in that day, in new bottles to preserve it in its unfermented state.

We have always finished eating all the grapes we buy.  There are always some over-ripe and rotten (fermented) grapes in the bunch and I just toss them out.
Yeast is destroyed at about 140-160 degrees F....so the yeast was destroyed before the juice concentrate was put in the freezer.  We were not trying to "ferment" the grapes when we tried to make the wine.  We accomplished that which we set out to do.  Make unfermented wine (or grape juice).  Using seal a meal bags is a far cry from putting the concentrate into old wineskins.  There is no comparison.  If you have never tried to make wine, then how do you know that what I am saying is foolishness?
Leviticus 10:8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
Leviticus 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
Leviticus 10:10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
Leviticus 10:11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

Timothy has a stomach ailment.
Doctors do not prescribe alcohol for stomach ailments.  Alcohol would further damage the stomach.
 
That which Paul prescribed was not alcoholic.

Well, when I first brought up the verse, all I did was post the verse by itself with nothing else; however, you refused to acknowledge what the verse plainly says. Therefore, I attempted to expound upon the verse for you. That was my only motivation. I have no irons in this fire myself. 
What I do find interesting is that when someone explains something from scripture (that you do agree with) with exhaustive explanation of scripture and commentary, you "Like" it. Yet that too falls under your definition of man-made doctrine.
Now, since you are also opposed to the drinking of alcohol and believe that the Bible warns against it, perhaps you can explain the verses from 1 Timothy that you quoted and gave commentary on. Ensure to explain where those verses allow for only the deacons who can control their use of it according to your own previous statements. Looks like all deacons can drink a little to me...whether they can control themselves or not.

Wine IS a mocker
Strong drink IS raging
whosoever IS deceived
THEREBY (the wine)
IS NOT wise.
No long, drawn-out, exhaustive explanation necessary.  The verse speaks for itself.  
 
Regardless, NN is correct with his expository of Proverbs 20:1, exhaustive, or not. 

Wine IS a mocker
Strong drink IS raging
whosoever IS deceived
THEREBY (the wine)
IS NOT wise.
No long, drawn-out, exhaustive explanation necessary.  The verse speaks for itself.  
 
Regardless, NN is correct with his expository of Proverbs 20:1, exhaustive, or not. 

Wine IS a mocker
Strong drink IS raging
whosoever IS deceived
THEREBY (the wine)
IS NOT wise.
No long, drawn-out, exhaustive explanation necessary.  The verse speaks for itself.  
 
Regardless, NN is correct with his expository of Proverbs 20:1, exhaustive, or not. 

If you had read the article from the link I posted you would have your answer.

4. The making of alcoholic beverages is not a strictly natural process. Years ago I took for granted that if you took the juice of a grape and let it alone, not refrigerating it, it would automatically, in time, turn into alcoholic wine. There are several reasons why this is not true. It takes more than time to make wine. Sometimes people try to defend its use by saying that it must be good because God made it. But, the fact is, God did not make it. Man has learned how to make alcoholic liquors through processes that he has invented. Wine-makers know that one must have the correct amount of water, sugar, and temperature to make wine. Keeping grape juice in a refrigerator would prevent it from fermenting, because the temperature is not right. Likewise, hot, tropical temperature would prevent fermentation.

In ancient days, before we had refrigeration and vacuum-sealing ability, people learned to preserve the juice of the grape without turning it into alcoholic wine. Many people boiled it down into thick syrup. By doing so, they could preserve it for long periods of time. When they got ready to drink it, they would simply add the water to the consistency desired, in much the same way that we take frozen concentrates and add water. In Bible days, contrary to what many believe, it was not necessary for everyone to drink alcoholic wine as a table beverage.

I recommend the book entitled Bible Wines and the Laws of Fermentation by William Patton (Challenge Press, Emmaus, PA). More than a hundred years ago, this preacher was the only one in his town who believed in total abstinence. He saw that it was necessary to make an extensive study to see what scripture taught. This book is the result of that labor and is the very best thing I have read on the subject.

[Editor: Natural processes alone will produce fermentation under certain conditions, but these natural processes, if unaided by man, rapidly move to a vinegar state. The alcoholic beverages industry is very much a man-made thing.]
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/did_jesus_make_alcoholic_wine.html

Ron and I tried making our own non-alcoholic wine from fresh seedless red grapes in 2007.  We squeezed the grapes in a juicer and then boiled them.  We then filtered out the "lees" and sealed them in a couple of gallon-sized "seal a meal" bags so they were air tight.  We then froze what we made.  Since alcohol does not freeze, we left those 2 gallon-sized in the freezer for 2 years.  They froze solid which means there was NO alcohol in those freshly squeezed grapes.  When thawed after 2 years, that concentrate was extremely sweet....but there was not a trace of "ferment"/alcohol in either bag.

Wretched, can you honestly say that Proverbs 20:1 doesn't show that there's something inherently sinful with wine in and of itself? Look at the verse again...
Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
What is a mocker?
Is it those who drink wine? No. Is it those who drink enough wine to get drunk? No. Is it those who can't control themselves with wine? No. What is a mocker according to that verse? Wine. Wine itself is a mocker.
Is mocking sin? Seems like I recall some kids who mocked Elisha, and some two she-bears killed 42 of them because of their mocking. What does the word "mock" mean? Another word for mock is to scorn. Look through the Bible and see how it talks about scorners...
Wine IS a mocker.
______________________________________________
Strong drink is raging.
What is raging?
Is it those who drink strong drink? No. Is it those who drink enough strong drink to get drunk? No. Is it those who can't control themselves with strong drink? No. What is raging according to that verse? Strong drink. Strong drink itself is raging.
Is rage a sin? Seems like I recall the Bible saying, "Why do the heathen rage?" Raging is associated with being tumultuous, fighting, commotions, moaning, being loud, and acting without a level head. Look through the Bible and see how it talks about rage.
Strong drink IS raging.
_____________________________________________
and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Deceived by what?
Wine and strong drink.
Is deception sinful?
Yes; it's lying.
Does wine and strong drink deceive? Yes.

Okay, this might look like I am trying to appease both sides of the fence... but most of you know (by now) I'm outspoken. So here's my 2 cents:
Yes, I use (multiple) Greek lexicons for the NT and Hebrew lexicons for the OT (when further clarity is desired).
(sorry, "Wretched, I still love you, in Christ, but I don't think they are "guessicons", they are "helpicons", lol)
In this case the word for "wine" in John 2 is "oinos" (Greek) and the definition means "wine" (English).
The same word for "wine" in 1 Tim. 5:23 is "oinos" (Greek) and the definition means "wine"(English).
BUT BUT BUT.... before anyone gets all excited and think that means alcoholicor non-alcoholic, let me also state what many Greek lexicons also denote on the word "oinos/wine"
"designate the juice of the grape in all its stages"
This makes sense when you think about it. For example... if I were to say to my favortie home health aide: "Please get me something to drink", she would know that I was referring to a weak decaf iced tea which I drink often, which looks more like colored water and has zero alcoholic content.
However, in the home of someone who drinks alcohol, a husband may come home after work and ask his wife to "Please get me something to drink", and she would likely understand that to mean whatever aloholic drink the man partakes of regularly.
BTW, I do not drink alcohol, I am certainly NOT saying "it's okay"  by any stretch...I have seen how it can ruin lives, etc. And there certainly ARE Bible verses which denote the evil associated with drinking/drunkeness.
But to say definitively that the word "wine" (oinos) means either one or the other in ALL cases would be incorrect.
Some cases it's clearly speaking of alcoholic wine, and other cases it denotes non-alcoholic wine.
So we are really right back where we started from... I do agree with a few people who stated you need to "take it in context".
I am not going to give my opinion on which verses denote alcohol and which verses do not. (and trust me you all know I DO have some opinions) But that would just be throwing gasoline on the fire, and we could argue 'til the cows come home and it wouldn't change one thing, nor one person's opinion.
My advice:  if a person REALLY can't tell the difference in a particular verse (in context with the subject matter) on whether or not it denotes alcohol or not, then that person needs to (individually) take it to the Lord and ask for the Holy Spirit's guidance in this. (Not to rely upon our own opinions which are tainted by fleshy-sin-nature, even when we sometimes come to the right conclusions).
Trust the Lord above all others (His "opinion" is the only one which truly "counts"), and He will lead you in the right way if you truly allow the Holy Spirit to guide.
That is assuming that the person has accepted Christ. For an unsaved person my advice would just flat out be "don't drink alcohol at all", it can (and likely will) wreck your life and wreck the lives of those around you. My advice to the unsaved person would also be... if you were considering alcohol to "escape" your problems, to fill a "void"in your heart and life...it really won't help, it will only add to your problems... my advice is to accept Jesus and He will fill that empty void, no need for alcohol at all!
 

Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Timothy has a stomach ailment.
Doctors do not prescribe alcohol for stomach ailments.  Alcohol would further damage the stomach.
 
That which Paul prescribed was not alcoholic.

You make a liar and a sinner out of God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, Wretched.  Priests, and Christ is our high priest, are not to drink booze.  God provides for two curses on booze, including one who gives strong drink to his neighbor.  So you are in effect saying that Christ gave his neighbors strong drink and is therefore a sinner.  I could go on and on but that is enough.
Wretched, your theology does violence to the Word of God.  

Wow!  How foolish of you Wretched!  Until roughly the 1940s, wine always had dual meanings and context was key to understanding which was being spoken of.  Like the bible itself teaches, we are not to change the bible to fit with the times but to learn what and how the words were used when the bible was written.  
God provides for two curses on those who drink booze, it is never ok to drink and always shameful.  To say that Christ made booze at the wedding makes Jesus a sinner man!  Wise up!   

Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?

How does one reconcile Exodus 31:3 with John 7:39?
 
Exodus 31 does say one was filled with the Spirit of God, while John, written more than 1500 years later, states that the Holy Ghost was not yet given.
 
Based on Exodus 31:3, I believe one could be indwelt by the Holy Ghost.  Albeit, it was only a 'temporary' indwelling.  It was not the 'permanent' indwelling that Believers post-cross would experience.  The Spirit came and went.  It was not yet given.
 
The Spirit is only given to those who put their faith in Jesus Christ and have been cleansed by His blood.

How does one reconcile Exodus 31:3 with John 7:39?
 
Exodus 31 does say one was filled with the Spirit of God, while John, written more than 1500 years later, states that the Holy Ghost was not yet given.
 
Based on Exodus 31:3, I believe one could be indwelt by the Holy Ghost.  Albeit, it was only a 'temporary' indwelling.  It was not the 'permanent' indwelling that Believers post-cross would experience.  The Spirit came and went.  It was not yet given.
 
The Spirit is only given to those who put their faith in Jesus Christ and have been cleansed by His blood.

We watch the Thief in the Night series at least once a year.
 
Yes, Revenant is definitely not a movie we should be watching.
 
I had a Sunday School teacher once who went to the theater a few years back with his wife and saw "The Heat".  It had the same filthy word in it more than 150 times in 117 minutes.  The sad thing is, the teacher's wife said that she and her husband were laughing throughout the entire movie.  To tell you the truth, I don't see them as saved at all.  They love the things of the world (filthy movies) and are therefore at enmity with God according to the Bible.

Yes, the movie had some problems but I'm glad the Lord was able to use it to bring me to Christ. We have the whole series. While I know of many others who have come to Christ through these movies, no one I've personally shared it with has.
At the time I saw that movie I had never heard of the end times, never heard anything about Jesus returning, never heard about the actual Gospel of salvation (I learned in Methodist Sunday school we had to be good to get to heaven...no explanation of just what that meant either), never heard of what hell is really like, so I much of that movie was a shock to me and really got my attention.
I still don't understand why any Christian would want to see this movie.

I've not seen the movie and I can't recall details but those I know which saw it and spoke of it mentioned problems which were not small points. That said, I agree that even the best film will not be perfect. If we choose to partake of a movie we should recognize that going in. It also helps to take into consideration that movies tend to show things which take place over days, weeks, months, years, all compacted into a roughly two hour time frame.
There are only a few Christian movies I really like, some I thought were okay, and most just weren't very good. Thankfully, Christian movies are now able to be made at a much higher quality than previously and in some cases they do work hard to present a good Christian story line.
From personal experience I know the Lord can use even flawed Christian movies to accomplish His will. It was after seeing "A Thief In The Night" at a night church service that I was born again in Christ.

Problem is, the Jesus that the Catholics embrace and teach is one whose mother is a perpetual virgin and is the queen of heaven who allegedly hears and answers their prayers.
 
of course, their Jesus is not the Jesus that can save..

Problem is, the Jesus that the Catholics embrace and teach is one whose mother is a perpetual virgin and is the queen of heaven who allegedly hears and answers their prayers.
 
of course, their Jesus is not the Jesus that can save..

Saved in the Catholic church?  If they never come out of that den of iniquity and idolatry, I highly doubt the authenticity of their Salvation.
2 Corinthians 6:17 (KJV) 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
2 Corinthians 6:18 (KJV) 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
 
It appears that if one does not separate from idolatry and idolaters, one will not be received by the Father and will not be a son or daughter.