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LindaR

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Posts posted by LindaR

  1.  

    I've tried wrapping my mind around the crucifixion being on Friday; whereas, I can see the possibility of three days using the partial day of Friday, all of Saturday, and Christ rising early on Sunday. However, I don't see how three nights can fit into that timeframe. All that I can see are two nights...Friday and Saturday.

    I'm not wanting to argue; I'm just trying to understand. 

    Bro. Dan...

    Check your Private Messages.  I'm going to send you something else from Jewish Awareness Ministries.  Three days and three nights will always be difficult to figure out in "Western" thinking and terminology.

  2.  

    Sister Robey,

    I fully recognize that "holy convocation" does not mean a day of rest (Sabbath).  However, I would contend that a day wherein the children of Israel were to do "no servile work" would be a day of rest (Sabbath).

    Now, the fifteenth day of the first month, which was the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, was just one of those days wherein they were to do "no servile work."  So then, I am asking how it could be a day of "preparation" work if it was to be a day of "no servile work"?
     

    Herein is where we would find our disagreement.  I would contend that our Lord Jesus Christ was crucified on Thursday, the 14th day of the first month, the Day of Passover.  Then I would contend that Friday, the 15th day of the first month, the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, was a high day (holy day) of rest (sabbath), wherein they were to do "no servile work."  Furthermore, I would contend that Saturday was the weekly Sabbath, which would create two consecutive days of rest (Sabbaths).  Finally, I would contend that our Lord Jesus Christ was resurrected on Sunday, "the third day" itself from His crucifixion. 
     

    I myself would contend that we can be much more precise about the timing of our Lord's resurrection on Sunday, as per Mark 16:9, which reveals that He was resurrected "early the first day of the week," wherein the word "early" means "early in the morning, at the dawning of the day-time" (approximately 6 am Sunday morning).

    Brother Markle,

    I have been corresponding via email with a Jewish brother in Christ , Mark Robinson, executive director of Jewish Awareness Ministries concerning the three days and three nights, and the "high" day in John 19:31.  Here is his response to my question concerning the Sabbath and the Sabbath being called a "high day" in John 19:31:
     

    Hi Linda,

    Sabbath is always Saturday.  The “high” or “floating” sabbath crowd is wrong. Judaism only recognizes one sabbath day – Saturday. Here is additional info on the “High” or “”Great” Sabbath.

    (The Great Sabbath) commemorates the 10th day of Nissan, when the Hebrew slaves took the lambs that they were going to offer for Pesach and tied them up outside their homes, to keep until they offered it on the 14th (Ex. 12:3-6). According to tradition, this was a dangerous thing to do, because Egyptians worshipped sheep, but miraculously, instead of slaughtering the Hebrews, the Egyptians instead fought with each other over whether the Hebrews should be sent away already.Shabbat Ha-Gadol is the Shabbat before Pesach (Passover). Traditionally, this was one of the few times of the year that a rabbi gave a lengthy sermon (in modern times, we get one every week). The sermon was usually about preparations for Pesach, and this special Shabbat commemorates a preparation for the original Pesach in Egypt. Shabbat Ha-Gadol“ 

     The special haftarah reading for this Shabbat is Malachi 3:4-24. This messianic prophecy regarding the end of days and the return of the prophet Elijah is read at this time because it is believed that Elijah will return at Pesach. This is why we include a cup for him in our seder rituals.”  

                Judaism 101, http://www.jewfaq.org/special.htm#HaGadol

     There is never 2 sabbath days in a row. Sabbath is ALWAYS Saturday. There are a number of “special” Sabbaths but they are always on Saturdays – see http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Shabbat/Special/special.html

     

    Mark Robinson

    Jewish Awareness Ministries

    ***********************************************

    Shabbat HaGadol means "Great Sabbath"

    Haftarah is a reading from the Prophets along with the weekly Torah portion (read in the synagogue on the Sabbath)

    The book of Malachi in the Jewish Scriptures does not have 4 chapters as the does the book of Malachi in our KJV.....it only has 3 (chapters 3 & 4 are combined to 24 verses (18 verses in chapter 3, and 6 verses in chapter 4)
    If anyone is interested in learning more about Jewish Awareness Ministries here is the link to their website:  Jewish Awareness Ministries
     

  3. Invicta.....

    Daniel's 70th week is not a literal 7 day week.  The 70 weeks are "weeks of years" in Daniel 9:24-27.  You are allegorizing this passage of prophecy all out of context.
     

    Excerpt from the Way of Life Encyclopedia: DANIEL – David W. Cloud

    Daniel 9:24-27. God's timetable for restoring Israel and overthrowing the Gentile powers.

    The Seventy Weeks. The occasion of the 70 weeks was Daniel's prayer that God would have mercy on Israel. The vision of the 70 weeks is God's answer. In this vision God reveals to Daniel the time schedule and major events which will lead to the establishment of Israel's Messianic kingdom.

    The Length of Time of the 70 Weeks. The Hebrew term for weeks here (shebuah) simply means "sevens." The context must determine whether it is a week of days, or of years, etc.

    (1) The weeks which have already been fulfilled demonstrate these are weeks of years rather than of days. It was almost 500 years from the rebuilding of the temple and of Jerusalem until the coming of Christ. This fits perfectly the testimony of Daniel 9:25, which places 69 weeks of years (483 years) between the two events. It is only reasonable to believe that the 70th week shall also be a week of years, or a seven year period.

    (2) When this Hebrew term is used of weeks of days, the word "days" is added (Daniel 10:2-3).

    (3) The concept of weeks of years was familiar to Jewish thinking (Leviticus 25:3-9).

    (4) At the time of the vision, Daniel had been thinking in terms of weeks of years (Daniel 9:2 compared with 2 Chronicles 36:21).

    The Divisions of the 70 Weeks. The 70 weeks are divided into distinct groups.

    (1) During the first 7 weeks (49 years) Jerusalem was rebuilt in troublous times (compare Nehemiah).

    (2) The next 62 weeks (434 years) extends from the rebuilding of Jerusalem until the coming of the Messiah.

    (3) Between the 69th and 70th week is a period of undetermined time during which the Messiah is cut off (compare Matthew. 27), Jerusalem is destroyed by Roman armies (A.D. 70), and there are desolations until the end. The Hebrew word translated "desolation" is also translated "destruction (Hosea. 2:12). It refers to the fact that Jerusalem has been destroyed and overrun time and again throughout the interim period between the 69th and 70th weeks. Unforeseen by Daniel is the interlude of the church age, during which time the Messiah is resurrected and ascends back to Heaven to oversee the calling out of a people for His name from among the nations (Luke 19:11-27; Acts 15:14-18).

    (4) The 70th week (the final seven years). The prince of the revived Roman Empire will make a covenant with Israel. That the Antichrist arises from the revived Roman Empire is evident by the fact that he is called the prince of the people who destroyed Jerusalem after Messiah's death; this was Rome. In the middle of the seven years the Antichrist will desecrate the Jewish temple (compare Matthew 24:15; 2 Thess. 2:3-4). There will be desolations until Christ returns to overthrow the Antichrist (compare Matthew24:16-21; Revelation 11:2). The abomination that makes desolate marks the middle of the seven years. Compare Matthew 24:15 where Jesus places this event in the Tribulation period. This abomination of desolation probably refers to the occasion when the Antichrist will set himself up as god (2 Thess 2:4).

    Sorry for getting off track here......back to the topic of Three Days and Three Nights

     

     

  4. 1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
    1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
    1 Corinthians 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
    1 Corinthians 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
    1 Corinthians 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
    1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

     

  5.  

    You could, but hen the women came, he was already risen.

    The first day began on Sabbath evening, not at dawn, so as the first day was dawning must mean as the Sabbath ended.

     

    The first day of the week begins at sundown Saturday evening (around 6PM)...at the END OF THE SABBATH.  The Sabbath is over at sundown, not at dawn. 
    The Sabbath begins at sundown Friday evening and ends at sundown Saturday evening. 

    Jesus rose from the grave on the first day of the week.  The Sabbath was over and done with -- all gone, bye-bye.

  6.  

    Actually, the position that the phrase in Matthew 28:1, "as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week," means early Sunday morning (at approximately 6 am) is supported by the parallel passages in the other gospels.  In Matthew 28:1 this time element is employed in order to inform us concerning the time wherein the women went to the tomb.  In parallel with Matthew 28:1, concerning the coming of the women to the tomb, we find the following:

    Mark 16:2 -- "And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun."

    Luke 24:1 -- "Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them."

    You probably could also add John 20:1

    John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

  7. Invicta,

    According to the Scriptures and the Jewish calendar, a day begins at sundown. 

    Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

    Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

    Genesis 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

    According to the Jewish calendar, the Sabbath begins at sundown on Friday evening and ends at sundown Saturday evening

    "in the end of the sabbath" is sundown on the 7th day (Saturday) and the beginning of the first day (which is our Sunday) of the week.  The "end of the sabbath" also means the end of the seventh day (Saturday) according to the Jewish calendar, which is what was used in Israel in Bible times.

     



     

  8.  

     

    Sister Robey,

    Is it true that the 15th day of the first month, the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, was a day of "holy convocation" wherein the Jews were to do "no servile work therein," as per Leviticus 23:6-7?

    If this is true, then I would ask if it is also possible that this same day, a day of "holy convocation" wherein they were to do "no servile work therein," could also be a day of "preparation," as per Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:20?
     

    So then, Brother Robey, if I am following correctly here --

    You would acknowledge that the days which I am calling "holy day Sabbaths" are indeed required "rest (?sabbath?) days," but you would contend that the day which I am calling the "weekly Sabbath" is truly THE one Sabbath of the week.

    Am I understanding correctly?

    (Sorry.  It was not my intention, but the posts merged.  Apparently I did not wait long enough before posting the second post.)

    Brother Markle,

    The term "holy connvocation" doesn't mean Sabbath.  A "holy connvocation" is more like a time of worship.

    Leviticus 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
    Leviticus 23:7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

    holy  ( קֹדֶשׁ qodesh ko'-desh )  from 6942; a sacred place or thing; rarely abstract, sanctity:—consecrated (thing), dedicated (thing), hallowed (thing), holiness, (X most) holy (X day, portion, thing), saint, sanctuary.

    connvocation ( מִקְרָא miqra' mik-raw' ) from 7121; something called out, i.e. a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal:—assembly, calling, convocation, reading.

    servile ( עֲבֹדָה `abodah ab-o-daw' )  or mabowdah (ab-o-daw'); from 5647; work of any kind:—act, bondage, + bondservant, effect, labour, ministering(-try), office, service(-ile, -itude), tillage, use, work, X wrought.

    work ( מְלָאכָה m@la'kah mel-aw-kaw') from the same as 4397; properly, deputyship, i.e. ministry; generally, employment (never servile) or work (abstractly or concretely); also property (as the result of labor):—business, + cattle, + industrious, occupation, (+ -pied), + officer, thing (made), use, (manner of) work((-man), -manship).

    Yes, the day of preparation was the same day (15th day of the first month, which is Nisan) It was also the day before the weekly Sabbath.   That particular weekly Sabbath was also a "high" day because it fell during the Passover week. 

    John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

    Jesus arose from the grave on the Feast of First Fruits, the third day of the Passover week, which was the first day of the regular week (our Sunday).  He was out of the grave sometime after sundown on Saturday evening (after the weekly Sabbath) and 6AM Sunday morning, before sunrise.

  9. The Resurrection and Passover

    The Scriptures are clear that the Last Supper was in fact the last earthly Passover that Jesus celebrated. At its core the celebration is conducted in an orderly manner, called a Seder, using ritual food items as symbols that tell of the deliverance of Israel from Egypt. In the 2nd Temple days, Passover, which is celebrated on the 14th of Nisan, had become an eight day celebration that included the Feast of Unleavened Bread (beginning the 15th) and the Feast of Firstfruits (16th)1. In that day (as today) the Seder was filled with messianic references and it was hoped that the Messiah would appear at that time. These references amplify the prophetic portion of each of these feasts concerning what is called in Judaism the greater redemption – the spiritual redemption. Looking beyond the physical historic deliverance of Israel, the feasts were a reminder that reinforced hope in the glorious expectation of the restoration of the people of Israel to their God.  The Passover began to represent spiritual righteousness and the coming of the kingdom; Unleavened Bread, an emblem of sanctification or being set apart by and for the Lord, represented the new beginning; while Firstfruits, as the guarantee of a harvest to follow, prefigures the resurrection of the righteous. All of which find reality in Messiah Jesus who offered His body as the final sacrifice for sin. His resurrection proved the acceptance of that sacrifice and through it the New Covenant could be established. He is the one who has gone before us to open the way for the greater redemption to begin; and for those who believe in His substitutionary sacrifice, His death, burial and resurrection2, He has become our Passover, our Sanctification and He is the Firstfruits3.

    The crucifixion of Jesus took place on the first day of the Passover week, the 15th of Nisan, which is also the first day of Unleavened Bread. Like the matzah He broke the night before, His body was broken so that we might be made whole! Later that day, at about the time that Jesus died, the first fruit of the barley, the first of the Firstfruits offering, was cut off. At about the time that He was laid in the tomb the firstfruits of the barley were gathered into the Temple. The next day an omer4 of fine flour made from the barley was offered before the Lord, which opened the way for other firstfruits to be accepted by God and marked His guarantee of a harvest to follow. Jesus remaining among the dead for three days is proof that He was truly dead. During that time He declared freedom to those who had died in faith and, in effect, He led captivity captive when, on the third day of Passover, He rose from the dead.

    The early church, following the instructions of the Lord5, used the afikoman and third cup from the Passover Seder to commemorate the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah Jesus, His institution of the New Covenant, and His promised return. This was done as often as a church chose. However, once a year a special celebration of these events was held on the day of Passover regardless of which day of the week that happened to be in any particular year. This was the tradition handed down by the Apostle John and attested to by Phillip the Evangelist and several of his daughters6. It may have also been the teaching of Paul since he alludes to the Corinthians keeping the feast of Unleavened Bread (Passover)7. It was certainly the tradition followed by the majority of churches in the east including those in the area of the Levant, Turkey and Greece.

    This is an excerpt from 
    PASSOVER, EASTER, AND THE EARLY CHURCH by Moshe Gold

  10. I disagree with a Thursday crucifixion, but I do not call a Friday crucifixion "Good Friday" (which is a man made name that comes straight from the Roman Catholic Church).  I received this email last year (April 4, 2015) from Jewish Awareness Ministries...the title is PASSOVER, CRUCIFIXION, AND THE RESURRECTION:

    April 4, 2015

    Dear Beloved in Messiah,

    As believers in Messiah Jesus the important truth is that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the grave. I realize that some Christians "argue" over the day of the Passover celebration of Jesus and the day He was crucified. I have no interest in arguing which day it was. I offer the following for your consideration.

    Last night was the first night of Passover. Tonight is the second night of Passover and many Jewish people will again gather around a Seder table to celebrate.

    The custom of two nights of Passover celebration is ancient. It predates the time of Jesus.


    In John 18:28, “Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went, not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.”

    Jesus had finished his Passover meal before appearing before Caiaphas and there is yet another Passover to come according to this verse.


    With the number of lambs slaughtered (about 210,000) there were 2 nights of Passover (and to this very day there are 2 nights of Passover in the Jewish community).

    On Thursday between noon and 3 pm, the lamb which Jesus and His disciples sacrificed was slain at the Temple and they ate it on Thursday night at their Passover
    (the Galilean Jews had their Passover the first night, and the Judean Jews the 2nd night). The Judean Jews would slay their lambs on Friday between noon and 3 pm (during the time Jesus was on the cross) and ate the lamb at their Passover (Caiaphas and the priests would be in this group) on Friday night (thus, John 18:28).

    How does three days and three nights in the grave work in reference to Jesus being in the grave?

    The term, three days and three nights, does not require three literal days and three literal nights or 72 literal hours. For example in Exodus 19:10-11 three days include part of the first day and part of the third day – these were not all 24 hour days, only the second day would have been 24 hours. Luke 13:32 is the same way – the first and third day were obviously not 24 hour days.


    Thus, a Friday crucifixion at 3 PM with a Sunday resurrection at 6 AM would have been considered three days and three nights by the Jewish people of the day.

    Again, the important truth is Jesus died and rose again for our sins.

    Hallelujah, He is risen!

    Have a blessed Resurrection day!


    In Messiah,
    Mark Robinson

  11. What Are The Three Tithes? What Is The Storehouse and the First Fruits?  (Ron Robey)

    Discussion on the three tithes, the storehouse, and the first fruits. 

    NOTE: Biblical tithes never were, and never will be monetary.  Biblical tithes are defined in Leviticus 27:30-33 and Deuteronomy 14:22-29.  Tithes and first fruits are not the same. (Nehemiah 10:37-38)  The storehouse is not the church house.

  12. 2 hours ago, wretched said:

    On the children issue the same applies: there is absolutely no example anywhere where a child got saved in the Bible. Nor is there a single example anywhere where a child is given the Gospel. Nor is there a single example anywhere where we are commanded to preach to children the Gospel. Suffer and forbid them not is the opposite of preaching to them by the way. Jesus says in the passage forbid them not for of such is the Kingdom of God. Think back for a moment: have you ever seen a child whom after being told all about the Lord Jesus who loves them and died for them, actually look you in the eye and say NO, I DON'T BELIEVE IT?

    Anyone who has raised children can easily attest that the onset of puberty is when they form their own opinions and yours as a parent matters less and less to them. So, what are they repenting from if their opinions on God and anything else are the parents opinion? The Bible also clearly indicates puberty as being the point at which our Lord Himself became self-aware and started preaching in the synagogues, jewish Bar Mitzvah is another clue. Raise up a child in the way they should go and when they are old, they will not depart from it,  is another.

    Just because there is no example anywhere in the Bible where a child got saved doesn't mean that a child is unable to get saved.  There is no "age of reason"/age of accountability mentioned in the Bible either. As far as there being a command "to preach to children the Gospel" (Bolding is mine), that is an inaccurate statement.  According to the Great Commission in Mark's Gospel:  Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature "Every creature" would include children.  There are some 5 year old children that have a better understanding of the Gospel than some 20 or 30 year old adult.  Who are we to determine if a person will or will not understand the Gospel of salvation?  Therefore a 7 year old is perfectly capable of understanding the Gospel.  Don't underestimate the capability of a child to fully understand the Gospel!

    RE: Jim_Alaska 's post (too long to quote).

    When Did The Church Begin?

  13. 47 minutes ago, AdamL said:

    He claimed to have accepted Jesus Christ as his Saviour.  Whether or not we believe in the same Jesus, I don't know.

    He can claim to have accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior "until the cows come home".  Making claims to be saved doesn't mean a person is saved.  His "jesus" is "another jesus".  When a person says that God's chosen people (the Jews) are of the devil, that person does not believe on the Jesus of the Bible. 

    Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
    Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
    Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
    Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

    This man is not saved.  His "saviour" is another "jesus".

    2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    We need to pray for this man's salvation.  He's on his way to a Christ less eternity.

  14. 13 minutes ago, Invicta said:

    Have you ever bought more grapes than you can eat in a few days?  Some would already begun to ferment.  

    Have you ever made sourdough bread from scratch?  It is made by fermenting flour.  You can make some types of bread such as pitta with fermenting the flour for just a few days.   I once tried, fairly unsuccessfully.   Then there is yougurt,  Not quite the same but similar.  How do you make yogurt from scratch?  Someone I used to work with had an Italian mother.  We got him to ask her how she made yogurt.  She said you put some milk into a jug and cover it with a cloth and keep it in a warm place for three days, when it should be covered in a green mould. Boil a pint of milk and leave it to cool. Remove the mould from the fermented milk and add a tablespoon of that the the cooled milk.  Stir and leave in a  warm place overnight and the next day you will have yogurt.  I have never tried it but have had some of her yogurt.

    There is no biblical evidence that they boiled the juice or froze it for two years. Actually freezing the juice for two years is no answer as that would have probably destroyed the yeast.  

    I have never tried fermenting grapes but about 25 years or so ago, we were in France and a neighboring farmer was collecting windfalls of mirabelles.  My wife started to help him but discarded the rotten ones. He told her to keep those as well.  Then she asked him what he was collecting them for and he said "Wine."  My wife stopped helping him after that.  Actually I found out later that he then distilled them into eau de vie.

    As I posted earlier the only people in the bible who were forbidden wine were the Nazarites, during the period covered by their vows.  The ban included vinegar (sour wine) and any part of the grape, skin, pip, pulp, juice.  They were also forbidden to consume strong drink, alcohol made from other fruit than wine and the vinegar thereof.  That would include malt vinegar.  

    Mark 2:22  And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
    This is the clearest testimony against your teaching, because new wine put into old wineskins would ferment and burst them, but but into new wineskins they would stretch with the fermentation.

    I am not advocating drinking, just showing the foolishness of your arguments.

    Final note.  I think the priests were fobidden to take wine before they officiated, but I can't remember where in the scripture.

     

     

     

    We have always finished eating all the grapes we buy.  There are always some over-ripe and rotten (fermented) grapes in the bunch and I just toss them out.

    Yeast is destroyed at about 140-160 degrees F....so the yeast was destroyed before the juice concentrate was put in the freezer.  We were not trying to "ferment" the grapes when we tried to make the wine.  We accomplished that which we set out to do.  Make unfermented wine (or grape juice).  Using seal a meal bags is a far cry from putting the concentrate into old wineskins.  There is no comparison.  If you have never tried to make wine, then how do you know that what I am saying is foolishness?

    Leviticus 10:8 And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,
    Leviticus 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:
    Leviticus 10:10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
    Leviticus 10:11 And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

  15. 1 hour ago, Invicta said:

    And how long do you think it will be berore fresh  unfermented juice begins to ferment after it is pressed?  A few days. and if the cluster is ripe it will already have started to ferment.   

    If you had read the article from the link I posted you would have your answer.

    4. The making of alcoholic beverages is not a strictly natural process. Years ago I took for granted that if you took the juice of a grape and let it alone, not refrigerating it, it would automatically, in time, turn into alcoholic wine. There are several reasons why this is not true. It takes more than time to make wine. Sometimes people try to defend its use by saying that it must be good because God made it. But, the fact is, God did not make it. Man has learned how to make alcoholic liquors through processes that he has invented. Wine-makers know that one must have the correct amount of water, sugar, and temperature to make wine. Keeping grape juice in a refrigerator would prevent it from fermenting, because the temperature is not right. Likewise, hot, tropical temperature would prevent fermentation.

    In ancient days, before we had refrigeration and vacuum-sealing ability, people learned to preserve the juice of the grape without turning it into alcoholic wine. Many people boiled it down into thick syrup. By doing so, they could preserve it for long periods of time. When they got ready to drink it, they would simply add the water to the consistency desired, in much the same way that we take frozen concentrates and add water. In Bible days, contrary to what many believe, it was not necessary for everyone to drink alcoholic wine as a table beverage.

    I recommend the book entitled Bible Wines and the Laws of Fermentation by William Patton (Challenge Press, Emmaus, PA). More than a hundred years ago, this preacher was the only one in his town who believed in total abstinence. He saw that it was necessary to make an extensive study to see what scripture taught. This book is the result of that labor and is the very best thing I have read on the subject.

    [Editor: Natural processes alone will produce fermentation under certain conditions, but these natural processes, if unaided by man, rapidly move to a vinegar state. The alcoholic beverages industry is very much a man-made thing.]

    http://www.wayoflife.org/database/did_jesus_make_alcoholic_wine.html

    Ron and I tried making our own non-alcoholic wine from fresh seedless red grapes in 2007.  We squeezed the grapes in a juicer and then boiled them.  We then filtered out the "lees" and sealed them in a couple of gallon-sized "seal a meal" bags so they were air tight.  We then froze what we made.  Since alcohol does not freeze, we left those 2 gallon-sized in the freezer for 2 years.  They froze solid which means there was NO alcohol in those freshly squeezed grapes.  When thawed after 2 years, that concentrate was extremely sweet....but there was not a trace of "ferment"/alcohol in either bag.

  16. 1 hour ago, Invicta said:

    Is. 65:8;      8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. Does not support your argument.  In the cluster overripe grapes will begin to ferment and that contain some alcohol, week at first then gradually getting stronger.  So it would be accurate to say that wine could be in the cluster.  

    This verse is not speaking of over-ripe grapes...it is speaking of NEW WINE (the fruit of the vine).  It is one of the verses which speaks of fresh, unfermented juice of the grapes found in the cluster.

    1 hour ago, Christ Follower said:

    And the vs Is 16:8 is part of God's judgment on Israel, it is in no way to mean that Israel was to abstain from it. 

    Isaiah 16 is not speaking of judgment on Israel.  The context is God's judgment on MOAB.  It is verse 10, not 8 which was quoted. 

    Isaiah 16:10 And gladness is taken away, and joy out of the plentiful field; and in the vineyards there shall be no singing, neither shall there be shouting: the treaders shall tread out no wine in their presses; I have made their vintage shouting to cease.

    All you folks are doing is trying to justify the believer's drinking of alcoholic beverages.....just don't get drunk....right?  Drunkenness/intoxication begins with the first drink of beverage alcohol.

  17. 2 hours ago, wretched said:

    That is what the Bible says, not me Linda. Change it in your minds all you want but that won't change the Bible.  I have seen this type of assumptive imagining all my life but it proves nothing. Not that the subject matters much but I simply refuse to change the Bible using greek guessicons and massive commentary to match a lie. A good intentioned lie no doubt but a lie nevertheless. Wine in itself is not sinful. Nowhere does it demonstrate our Lord drinking nor getting drunk.

    Smoke and mirrors is not necessary to prove the sin of excess. Just like so many other subjects, it means what is says and says what it means.

     

     It is quite obvious that the wine which was used in Bible times was totally different than the wine which is manufactured today.  Things that are different (Bible wine/today’s wine) are not the same. 

    What about CONTEXT???    In your zeal to interpret every instance of the word wine in Scripture as fermented, it is apparent that you are overlooking CONTEXT and the modern usage of the word wine.

    BTW, I am not using any "Greek (or Hebrew) guessicons". 

    SOME INTRODUCTORY BIBLE FACTS ABOUT WINE:


    1. The word wine in the Bible is a generic term; sometimes it means grape juice; sometimes it means alcoholic beverages. The following verses prove that the word “wine” can mean fresh grape juice, the fruit of the vine: De. 11:14; 2 Ch. 31:5; Ne. 13:15; Pr. 3:10; Is. 16:10; 65:8; 1 Ti. 5:23.

    2. The context will always show when “wine” refers to alcoholic beverages. In such cases, God discusses the bad effects of it and warns against it. An example would be Gen. 9, Noah’s experience after the Flood. Verse 21, “and he drank of the wine, and was drunken,” clearly refers to alcoholic beverage. Prov. 20:1 speaks of the same thing when it warns us, “Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.” Alcoholic wine is deceptive; but how? In the very way that people are advocating today, by saying that drinking a little bit will not hurt. Everyone admits that drinking too much is bad; even the liquor companies tell us not to drive and drink, but they insist that a small amount is all right. However, that is the very thing that is deceptive. Who knows how little to drink? Experts tell us that each person is different. It takes an ounce to affect one, while more is necessary for another. The same person will react to alcohol differently, depending on the amount of food he has had, among other things. So, the idea that “a little bit won’t hurt” is deceptive, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise!

    Prov. 23:30-31 refers to alcoholic wine, because it tells us in the previous verse that those who drink it have woe, sorrow, contentions, babbling, wounds without cause, and redness of eyes. What a graphic description of those who “tarry long” at alcoholism. Verses 32-35 continue the same description; context always makes it clear when alcohol is meant.  (From the link I posted)

     

     

  18. 3 hours ago, wretched said:

    I missed this initially and realize you did not quote me but are referencing my post so I have questions. I wonder were you orthodox and bound by the ordinances or simply a jew by heritage? You know, told to go to synagogue so you went. Or perhaps some kind of jew not mentioned in the the NT like Mel Brooks or Barbara Streisand? :)Not being facetious, just asking? I wonder had you been bound by ordinances as the NT context is always speaking in regards to the Jews, would your reaction have been different since it is God (not wretched) who said the Jews require a sign? Written pretty clearly and in context but should it be disregarded simply because it did not happen to you? I don't think so.

    I wonder if anyone can show me where in the NT Scripture your pastors explanation of baptism is found?  Or maybe just the ordinances for a NT Church?. In the NT ordinances are described as worldly associated with human government or carnal deeds of the law and nailed to the Cross with Jesus and not something the church would have. Yes, yes, I know men always call them that, God doesn't.

    Just food for thought

     

    I was raised in Reform (Liberal) Judaism.  My grandparents were Orthodox Jewish immigrants from Russia.  They immigrated to the USA during the late 1890s or early 1900s.  We (my brother, sister and I) were brought up in a Roman Catholic neighborhood in Cleveland, Ohio and were called Christ killers during our growing up years.  We lived about 2 blocks from a Jesuit RC seminary (John Carroll University).   

    As far as my "education" on water baptism, the pastor used Romans 6 as an explanation of the meaning of this church ordinance. 

    If you are using 1 Cor. 1:22 as a proof text for the Jews requiring a "sign", what does that have to do with believer's baptism?

  19. Where do you find "eat the meat and spit out the bones" in the Bible?  Doesn't Scripture say that "A little leaven leaventh the whole lump"? (Galatians 5:9)  Error mixed with truth turns the truth into error.
     

    Eat The Meat, Spit Out The Bones

    There are a lot of clever-sounding sayings that make the rounds among Christians, and one of these is “eat the meat, and spit out the bones.” Many have written to exhort me to do this, and they mean that I shouldn’t worry so much about exposing error. They wonder why I can’t just “eat the meat, and spit out the bones.”

    There is a bit of truth to this saying, in that God’s people are always to exercise biblical discernment when hearing sermons or reading Christian books. We are to “prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

    But the Bible also twice warns that “a little leaven leaventh the whole lump” (1 Cor. 5:7; Gal. 5:9) and exhorts us to mark and avoid those who teach doctrine contrary to that which we have learned in Scripture (Rom. 16:17). There is great danger in eating the wrong spiritual meat!

    What if the meat is rotten or poisoned or hasn’t been cooked or properly stored? The U.S. government regulates how restaurants must cook meat, because undercooked meat is dangerous. When I worked in a restaurant in my youth, I was taught to handle the meat very carefully and to store it properly, because it spoils easily. If you eat meat that is spoiled or poisoned or undercooked, even if you spit out the bones, you will be in trouble. The writings of men like Brian McLaren and Richard Foster and Chuck Colson and Rick Warren and C. S. Lewis contain plenty of rotten meat. Those who advise God’s people to “eat the meat, and spit out the bones,” must explain to us how they know that this “meat” is safe.

    Also, what if the bones have splinters or what if you get a bone stuck in your throat? When I was growing up in Florida, I went fishing often with my dad and granddad, and they were careful about which fish they kept and which they threw away, because some had too many bones to eat safely. And Mom was very careful to keep an eye on us when we were eating fish because of the ever-present danger of getting a bone stuck in our throats. This happened from time to time anyway, and it was a very unpleasant thing and, in fact, can be fatal. Likewise, very few Christians are able to wade through sermons or books by compromising preachers on their own and expertly spit out all of the “bones” of error. One of the reasons why so many fundamental Baptists are becoming New Evangelical is because they are reading New Evangelical books and blogs and listening to New Evangelical sermons.

    And what if you don’t know the difference between meat and bones? A toddler doesn’t know the difference, and if it tries to eat meat and spit out bones, it will quickly be in trouble. Likewise, the average Christian today is far too biblically ignorant and carnal to distinguish properly between truth and cleverly presented error.

    My friends, beware of clever sayings that aren’t supported by Scripture.

    We live in a shallow, apostate, carnal age, and it behooves us to study the Bible diligently and to think biblically!!!!

    One pastor who read this article replied:

    “The problem I have with this statement is that sometimes the truth is hard to swallow, so it is spit out and called ‘bones.’ The ‘eat the meat, spit out the bones’ mentality is pretty much the same as Burger King’s ‘Have it your way’ mentality. Sinful man is always prone to create a hybrid Christianity that suits his tastes and preconceived notions about what he wants God to be.”

  20. I haven't seen the movie...but after reading some of the reviews, I seriously doubt whether I want to see it at all.

    Here is a review that one of my FB friends posted : War Room: A Review of the Movie and the Industry Surrounding It

    Concerning Elements

    There are several concerning elements of the film that one may or may not notice if he is watching he movie uncritically:

    • In one scene a man attempts to mug Clara and Elizabeth at knifepoint. Clara rebukes the man “in the name of Jesus”.  This kind of word of faith proclamation may work in the movies (and sometimes even in real life depending on a mugger’s background or God’s provision), however, a young person emboldened by the prayer theme of the movie may very well end up being stabbed if she imitates Clara’s example in real life.  This type of subtle word faith proclamation may be lost on conservative Southern Baptist audiences but it will certainly be noticed by Pentecostals who go to see the movie.
    • In another scene, Elizabeth is praying over the scriptures while Tony is on a business trip and out to dinner with a temptress. Elizabeth prays from the scriptures the phrase “resist the devil and he will flee”.  She repeats this line of scripture a few times.  In real life, Shirer is a proponent of contemplative prayer, a practice in which the prayer focuses on clearing her mind a repeating a specific phrase (similar to a mantra).  Those who are not aware of the practice of contemplative prayer will probably not notice that this scene touches the borderline of that practice.

    Priscilla Shirer and Beth Moore are in this movie.  Both are advocates of contemplative prayer.

    My advice---pray and use much discernment!

  21. 30 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

    As an administrator of message forums myself, I am wondering how either of you knows that her I.P. has been blocked? On my forums the person with the block cannot even see the forums, so how would they know it was an I.P. block?

    First of all, the statement wasn't addressed to you, Jim.  It was addressed to BroMatt and the administrators/designers of this website.

    Ronda is a good friend of mine and we communicate frequently on Facebook.  She asked me if I was having a problem getting on this forum and I said I wasn't and the forum wasn't  down for some technical reason.  A few years ago our IP was blocked because of an "overload" of editing and the "bot" caught it as spamming.  I contacted the website administrators via Facebook, and they resolved the problem.  I told Ronda to do the same and she asked me to use that "Contact Us" option at the bottom of each page on this forum.  I did that and neither I, nor Ronda received a response via email.

    BTW, I do know something about blocked IPs...and I also know that every forum has a "bot" that is supposed to catch spammers.  I also have been a moderator on several internet forums

    I am attempting to help a friend get back on this forum and I thought starting a thread in the Computer Room would be a start, since I'm not having any luck anywhere else I've tried.

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