John81

There are many who hold a pre-trib rapture as being an absolute fundamental of the faith, as in, if one holds to anything else, they are an apostate, wicked and hell-bound. And, I admit, there are those who hold to my position, or about any other rapture-timing position, that take the same sort of view, ie, if you don't believe it my way you're stupid, a heretic, unsaved, whatever. And it IS a shame.
We have on this board some magnificent minds with excellent understanding of many things in scripture-I believe we're probably every one of us saved, and have within us the Holy Spirit, who is able to make us understand all things. Yet to me, my position is sound and able to be supported by scripture, and I can refute other positions well enough to remain convinced at least in my own mind, while others are able to take an opposing position and refute it well enough from scripture to remain convinced in their own minds. It is a puzzle. I don't believe any of us are heretics, or lost or selfish or whatever, (and I pray no one sees me that way), so this is a conundrum.   My ultimate thought it, 1-it doesn't matter that much, or its not a fundamental, because apparently there is enough ambiguity to cause this, and 2, maybe there's a reason for it. Honestly I don't know. I do know that I came to where I am having been a life-long pre-trib rapturist, but after about a year of serious study and prayer, I came to where I am now, (and even as a pre-trib, I had harbored some doubts, though I attributed that to my own immaturity).
So, as John says, I pray that as we discuss this, that, while we may not come to a meeting of the minds, as it were, that we will all remain civil, loving and seek to find profit in the discussion, and when it becomes unprofitable, let us set it down and go elsewhere, where profit may be found, and God be not blasphemed.  

It would be best for you to get out on your own as soon as you can. That doesn't mean you have to cut all ties after moving out. Simply be careful about the influence your unsaved family has upon you and if need be, limit the amount of time you spend with them. We don't have to continually try to persuade them to come to Christ but we should make certain our lives witness our life in Christ. Be helpful and respectful and if possible share some of the good things Christ is doing in your life.
My family is lost and has no interest in hearing the Gospel or anything about "religion". My Dad can't talk without cussing and his most used terms are blasphemous which really grieves me (I say a silent prayer each time he blasphemes, which is a lot). For this reason I don't spend a lot of time with my Dad but I try to make sure the time I do spend with him is helpful time.
Pray for your family daily. Pray the Lord will send that someone into their lives the Holy Ghost can use to bring them to salvation in Christ.

Most animals I like fine, especially those I can fry!
I've read many comments online regarding the shooting of the gorilla to save a child and it really lets a person know just how warped of mind and degenerate many in this country have become. I couldn't even keep count of the numbers of people spouting their "wisdom" of why it would have been better for the child to die than the endangered gorilla. That doesn't even touch upon the many calls for the parent(s) to be tortured, executed, fed to gorillas for "allowing" the child to be with the gorilla.
So many of the liberal mindset actually believe we can make the world perfect if everyone would just follow their way. Whether openly or inside their heart, many believe the elimination of those who stand in the way of their utopia would be justified and beneficial.
The devil has done a masterful job blinding so many and imputing horrible ideologies into their minds.

Our pastor has got into some of the false garbage which began to be taught even during the time of the Apostles. Over the course of history these false teachings keep coming back up again and again. The devil attacked quickly and hasn't relented.

Alan,
Thank you for the explanations and Scripture references.
I do believe the church should be looking for the coming of Jesus rather than the anti-christ, but unfortunately I encounter far more Christians (mostly pre-trib rapture folks) trying to figure out who the anti-christ is.

Most animals I like fine, especially those I can fry!
I've read many comments online regarding the shooting of the gorilla to save a child and it really lets a person know just how warped of mind and degenerate many in this country have become. I couldn't even keep count of the numbers of people spouting their "wisdom" of why it would have been better for the child to die than the endangered gorilla. That doesn't even touch upon the many calls for the parent(s) to be tortured, executed, fed to gorillas for "allowing" the child to be with the gorilla.
So many of the liberal mindset actually believe we can make the world perfect if everyone would just follow their way. Whether openly or inside their heart, many believe the elimination of those who stand in the way of their utopia would be justified and beneficial.
The devil has done a masterful job blinding so many and imputing horrible ideologies into their minds.

This reminds me of some points I read in an article about Satanists planning special events for 6-6-16. Apparently a Satanist in California is running for office so the Satanists in Los Angeles plan to have some sort of "sacrifice" at five points in the city to help empower to Satanist candidate to victory.
Anyway, the article points out the fact false religions are growing, some rapidly, while Christianity in America is on the decline. The gist of the article highlighted a main reason for this is those following these false religions actually believe their religion, actually believe their "holy books/writings", actually take their religion seriously and are striving to live accordingly. Meanwhile, most American Christians don't have this passion for their religion, they lack that fire burning within them which wold compel them to truly and fully embrace Christianity and live it.
We have seminaries putting out pastors who don't even believe the Bible is wholly true, wholly the Word of God. These pastors preach what they think, picking and choosing what to teach the congregation is or might be from God in the Bible and what isn't.
Most Christians won't read the Bible to learn for themselves what's between the covers. How much passion can they have for their religion when they don't even know it? How can they have a fire burning in them when they quench the Spirit by their lack of personal Bible reading or study, lack of Bible-based preaching, lack of true discipleship?
The rise of mega-churches may suggest Christianity is growing, alive and well but it's an illusion. In the better mega-churches the congregation most often consists of those who were already Christians which left their smaller churches for the larger one. No real growth there. For the lesser mega-churches, many in the congregation are there for social standing, to be a part of the crowd, the excitement.
While many of the false religionists are seeing their numbers grow through spreading their religion and bringing their children into their religion (one article said Wicca and pagan religions are the fastest growing in America with Islam a strong second), Christians in America are not evangelizing and most studies indicate over 90% of children from Christian households leave Christianity upon leaving their parents home (if not sooner).
In America we have a population that is supposedly about three-fourths Christian (we know the vast majority of those are secular or cultural Christians, not actual born again Christians), with no fire for Christ or Christianity. On the other hand, the pagans, Islamists, Mormons, and other false religionists have a fire inside them for their religion and they seek to spread it, speak it, live it.
The few Christians who do have a fire for Christ burning within which leads them to share the Gospel, disciple others, live their faith are now called fanatics, haters, even dangerous fundamentalists. This they are called not only by non-Christians but by professing Christians too.
Will the Christian remnant in America boldly go forth proclaiming Christ to the saving of lost souls or will the trend of Bible believing Christians to hunker down in their churches, hoping to soon be raptured, continue?

This reminds me of some points I read in an article about Satanists planning special events for 6-6-16. Apparently a Satanist in California is running for office so the Satanists in Los Angeles plan to have some sort of "sacrifice" at five points in the city to help empower to Satanist candidate to victory.
Anyway, the article points out the fact false religions are growing, some rapidly, while Christianity in America is on the decline. The gist of the article highlighted a main reason for this is those following these false religions actually believe their religion, actually believe their "holy books/writings", actually take their religion seriously and are striving to live accordingly. Meanwhile, most American Christians don't have this passion for their religion, they lack that fire burning within them which wold compel them to truly and fully embrace Christianity and live it.
We have seminaries putting out pastors who don't even believe the Bible is wholly true, wholly the Word of God. These pastors preach what they think, picking and choosing what to teach the congregation is or might be from God in the Bible and what isn't.
Most Christians won't read the Bible to learn for themselves what's between the covers. How much passion can they have for their religion when they don't even know it? How can they have a fire burning in them when they quench the Spirit by their lack of personal Bible reading or study, lack of Bible-based preaching, lack of true discipleship?
The rise of mega-churches may suggest Christianity is growing, alive and well but it's an illusion. In the better mega-churches the congregation most often consists of those who were already Christians which left their smaller churches for the larger one. No real growth there. For the lesser mega-churches, many in the congregation are there for social standing, to be a part of the crowd, the excitement.
While many of the false religionists are seeing their numbers grow through spreading their religion and bringing their children into their religion (one article said Wicca and pagan religions are the fastest growing in America with Islam a strong second), Christians in America are not evangelizing and most studies indicate over 90% of children from Christian households leave Christianity upon leaving their parents home (if not sooner).
In America we have a population that is supposedly about three-fourths Christian (we know the vast majority of those are secular or cultural Christians, not actual born again Christians), with no fire for Christ or Christianity. On the other hand, the pagans, Islamists, Mormons, and other false religionists have a fire inside them for their religion and they seek to spread it, speak it, live it.
The few Christians who do have a fire for Christ burning within which leads them to share the Gospel, disciple others, live their faith are now called fanatics, haters, even dangerous fundamentalists. This they are called not only by non-Christians but by professing Christians too.
Will the Christian remnant in America boldly go forth proclaiming Christ to the saving of lost souls or will the trend of Bible believing Christians to hunker down in their churches, hoping to soon be raptured, continue?

In my experience this is little done by Christian parents and those few Christian parents who do attempt such are often looked down upon, even attacked, often by their own family and other Christians.
On one hand we have God First. Seek ye first the kingdom of God: learn and obey what God says.
On the other hand we have the "chase after worldly things first and fit God in sometimes when convenient".
Unfortunately, the second most often is the choice of Christian parents.
Time and again Christian parents say they must have their children in public schools so they can play sports. Sports comes first because that could lead to a scholarship to a secular school so they can get a degree towards a career making lots of money.
Ask them about God's call on their children's lives and receive a blank stare, a long Uhhhhhhh, and maybe an attempt to say once their children are grown, have their degree and fine career, they will know what God wants them to do.
When we decided to home school we received more negativity from family and other Christians than from anyone else. Our stand that Sunday was/is the Lord's Day and church attendance and participation in church (Sunday school, etc.) came before anything else (including family gatherings, sporting events, etc.), we received all sorts of reasons from family and other Christians as to many exceptions and reasons why other things were just as or more important than being in church on Sunday.
A nearby church formed a Christian school which did very good for a few years until several families with many children announced they were moving their children into public school for the sake of sports.
Praise God for parents who try to train up their children in accord with the Word instead of the world. They need our prayers.

Alan,
I appreciate your effort to provide biblical responses to questions. Doing so is infinitely better, and more productive, than the often "I'm right, you're wrong" approach often seen. There is no edification for anyone with the latter, but the potential for learning and growth with the former. Thank you.

This is why so many churches don't solely rely upon doing as the Word says and trusting God with the outcome. Doing so puts it all in God's hands and in His timing, which often isn't the same as our time schedule.
Instead, churches turn to gimmicks, specials, entertainment, forming special interest groups (such as a quilters group, divorced group, bargain hunters group, genealogy group) and various other extra-biblical means to draw a crowd.
A local church recently sent out a mass mailing, put up a large sign by their church, advertising an upcoming special "love" event. They ask folks to show up an hour before their regular service time to register for goodies and have donuts and coffee. Then they will have a "special service" (whatever that means), followed by a free meal, which will be followed by lots of games, free will donation yard sale, entertainment provided by their youth group band, etc.
I'm thankful our church doesn't resort to such measures, and thankful for all the other churches which don't either.

In my experience this is little done by Christian parents and those few Christian parents who do attempt such are often looked down upon, even attacked, often by their own family and other Christians.
On one hand we have God First. Seek ye first the kingdom of God: learn and obey what God says.
On the other hand we have the "chase after worldly things first and fit God in sometimes when convenient".
Unfortunately, the second most often is the choice of Christian parents.
Time and again Christian parents say they must have their children in public schools so they can play sports. Sports comes first because that could lead to a scholarship to a secular school so they can get a degree towards a career making lots of money.
Ask them about God's call on their children's lives and receive a blank stare, a long Uhhhhhhh, and maybe an attempt to say once their children are grown, have their degree and fine career, they will know what God wants them to do.
When we decided to home school we received more negativity from family and other Christians than from anyone else. Our stand that Sunday was/is the Lord's Day and church attendance and participation in church (Sunday school, etc.) came before anything else (including family gatherings, sporting events, etc.), we received all sorts of reasons from family and other Christians as to many exceptions and reasons why other things were just as or more important than being in church on Sunday.
A nearby church formed a Christian school which did very good for a few years until several families with many children announced they were moving their children into public school for the sake of sports.
Praise God for parents who try to train up their children in accord with the Word instead of the world. They need our prayers.

Indeed we read of the call to surrender all to Christ, Christ Himself telling us we should count the cost, and we read of the many who came to Christ and actually gave up all to follow Christ or were wiling to but commanded of the Lord to another area.
While salvation on ones deathbed (as it were) is possible, this seems to be rare. How often does the dying one have someone present to rightly present the Gospel before the die? Even if they heard the Gospel many times in their life, and rejected it, how many will suddenly have a soft heart and rightly call out to the Lord.
Each time a celebrity dies we see this attempt to find a means of believing they went to heaven. Sure, it's possible they may have came to Christ before they died, but realistically it's not likely. Even so, according to millions, including many actual Christians, Elvis, Prince, Houston, and most of those other TV, movie and music celebrities who have died are now in heaven. Not based upon any of them having a testimony of salvation, but based upon some things they said about religion, or some gospel song they sang, or their attending church when children, and the idea that surely God spoke directly to them as they were near death and brought them into heaven.
Of a truth, nothing is required of us to be saved (baptism, a life well lived, giving to the church, etc.), but a saved person will have a transformation because as Scripture declares, they are become new creatures in Christ. The "simple prayer" evangelism which basically tells folks to "just believe", "just accept Jesus into your heart" and you will go to heaven; nothing ever expected of you beyond that, go and live as before if you wish, is very dangerous and some folks use this method without even realizing it or understanding it. Thus we have millions who believe they are heaven bound while yet lost in their sins.
Had I realized I was dying prior to salvation I may have called out to the Lord, but I have no confidence I would have done so in a manner necessary for salvation. My Sunday school upbringing was long on works, short on the actual Gospel.

This is why so many churches don't solely rely upon doing as the Word says and trusting God with the outcome. Doing so puts it all in God's hands and in His timing, which often isn't the same as our time schedule.
Instead, churches turn to gimmicks, specials, entertainment, forming special interest groups (such as a quilters group, divorced group, bargain hunters group, genealogy group) and various other extra-biblical means to draw a crowd.
A local church recently sent out a mass mailing, put up a large sign by their church, advertising an upcoming special "love" event. They ask folks to show up an hour before their regular service time to register for goodies and have donuts and coffee. Then they will have a "special service" (whatever that means), followed by a free meal, which will be followed by lots of games, free will donation yard sale, entertainment provided by their youth group band, etc.
I'm thankful our church doesn't resort to such measures, and thankful for all the other churches which don't either.

Indeed we read of the call to surrender all to Christ, Christ Himself telling us we should count the cost, and we read of the many who came to Christ and actually gave up all to follow Christ or were wiling to but commanded of the Lord to another area.
While salvation on ones deathbed (as it were) is possible, this seems to be rare. How often does the dying one have someone present to rightly present the Gospel before the die? Even if they heard the Gospel many times in their life, and rejected it, how many will suddenly have a soft heart and rightly call out to the Lord.
Each time a celebrity dies we see this attempt to find a means of believing they went to heaven. Sure, it's possible they may have came to Christ before they died, but realistically it's not likely. Even so, according to millions, including many actual Christians, Elvis, Prince, Houston, and most of those other TV, movie and music celebrities who have died are now in heaven. Not based upon any of them having a testimony of salvation, but based upon some things they said about religion, or some gospel song they sang, or their attending church when children, and the idea that surely God spoke directly to them as they were near death and brought them into heaven.
Of a truth, nothing is required of us to be saved (baptism, a life well lived, giving to the church, etc.), but a saved person will have a transformation because as Scripture declares, they are become new creatures in Christ. The "simple prayer" evangelism which basically tells folks to "just believe", "just accept Jesus into your heart" and you will go to heaven; nothing ever expected of you beyond that, go and live as before if you wish, is very dangerous and some folks use this method without even realizing it or understanding it. Thus we have millions who believe they are heaven bound while yet lost in their sins.
Had I realized I was dying prior to salvation I may have called out to the Lord, but I have no confidence I would have done so in a manner necessary for salvation. My Sunday school upbringing was long on works, short on the actual Gospel.

This reminds me of some people who are more concerned with trying to get a satisfying answer to their question, "will my pets be in heaven" than they are in whether their neighbors or other lost folks know the way to heaven.

This reminds me of some people who are more concerned with trying to get a satisfying answer to their question, "will my pets be in heaven" than they are in whether their neighbors or other lost folks know the way to heaven.

This reminds me of some people who are more concerned with trying to get a satisfying answer to their question, "will my pets be in heaven" than they are in whether their neighbors or other lost folks know the way to heaven.

The millions across the land who fall for these things, who send money for a "specially anointed prayer cloth", a vial of "blessed water from the river Jordan", or simply thinking they will get their prayers answered, are the same ones voting for president, voting in the school boards, city councils, teaching children, driving our roadways...

I'm glad these are the types of problems we face here rather than those faced in some countries where it's often matters of life and death.
Perhaps you could sell, trade or give them to someone who is going to shop there anyway. As you said, you didn't pay for them and Target already has the money.

Let's not forget that America was supposed to be a Republic, not a Democracy. The Founders warned that democracy was the worst form of government. A democracy tends to be short lived for once a 51% group or coalition realizes they can control the government and everyone in it, the 49% will find themselves oppressed. The end result is never good.
Our Founders advocated for good trade relations with all who were willing and entangling alliances with none.
It was democratic elections which placed the Muslim Brotherhood in control of Egypt (which the military stepped in with a de facto coup to end that); and placed terrorists in leadership over the so-called Palestinians.
It's America's change to democracy which has brought America to the sad shape she is in today.
While the resolution sounds good, even the article points out no action is associated with it. As we know, modern era presidents drive foreign policy according to their views.
If China invaded Taiwan tomorrow would America declare war on a nuclear armed China that holds a great deal of American debt and who is such a large provider of what fills American stores? What would Japan say, knowing an American war with China would mean Japan would become a target of China? What would South Korea say when China tells North Korea to go on full stand-by for war? That's just the tip of the iceberg.
America is over 19 trillion dollars in debt. The American military has been cut back to very low post WWII levels in many areas. Few, if any, allies of America would give support to a war with China. We also have to consider much of the nation is war weary and add to that the deep divisions across America which have greatly grown and intensified during the time of the current administration.
America is not in a good position at this time to engage in war with a major power.
I love America, but our country is very sick and in need of serious attention towards healing and recuperation and restoration.

You certainly weren't the only one. In our early years our TV was on from early in the morning until bed time. My wife liked having it on for the children all day and she liked to be able to sit and watch some throughout the day.
Back then I was generally working ten hour days, six days a week, and when I got home I had yard, garden, home and other chores to tend to. With all that going on back then I usually watched a little news, had a couple shows I would try to catch during the week, and not time for any more than that.
These days the TV is mostly off, if I don't want the house so quiet I will turn on Christian radio (we have a small local station, which doesn't come in all the time, which plays old sermons and songs) or play a sermon CD.

A most excellent study and very timely. I have a Christian who claims they have recently drawn even closer to God and they know their heart is right with God, yet they are pursuing a sinful course of action based upon selfish motives and intents which would likely lead to more sin in their lives. They claim to want to follow God and they understand what God's Word says on the matter...BUT..., but they refuse to pay heed to the Word that would block their plans.
I will share this study with them in the hopes they may allow the Holy Spirit to change their heart.

Amen! Nothing about strapping up and trying to kill the persecutors.

Yes.