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  1. Pastor Scott Markle

    Calvanism

    Hmmmm, to me that does not seem Biblically valid. Since this debate concerns the doctrine of the gospel, if one or another side is wrong, then they are "accursed" according to Galatians 1:6-9; and I for one could not comfortably engage in ministry fellowship with those whom the Lord our God has pronounced as "accursed."
    4 points
  2. You just may be an independent Baptist if you can't agree on what being a Baptist means.
    3 points
  3. Are you monotone? Not really, but I'm sure there have been times I have Are you loud in emphasizing your points? Yes and no. Sometimes when I get into the message I get loud Do you preach from notes, or off the top of your head "as the spirit leads" you? I always use notes. Notes cover my points, subpoints, Scripture and illustrations. How long is your typical sermon? 30-45 minutes
    2 points
  4. When you preach what is your style of presentation? I almost always preach expository, or textual (mostly expository). When I teach, it is more topical. I never do narrative sermons, it's just not me. Are you monotone? I'm not monotone by any means. I'm a very expressive person, and my preaching follows. I talk with my hands and emphasize a lot. Are you loud in emphasizing your points? Occasionally. I don't ever intend on being loud. I try to always pray beforehand that the Lord will help me deliver the message exactly the way I need to deliver it. I pray if I need to be loud, that it will be portrayed as passion, and not contention. I pray if I need to be quite, that it will be meditative, and not boring. Do you preach from notes, or off the top of your head "as the spirit leads" you? I almost always use notes, though I can preach without them. My notes, however, are just the basic points, subpoints, and Scriptures. How long is your typical sermon? I generally preach until I'm done. But now, starting a new church (we had our first service a month ago), I have been making it a point of only preaching 30 to 35 minutes. My longest message that I'm aware of was 1 hour and 58 minutes. So basically I'm all over the place on time.
    2 points
  5. They are replacing the old time religion with a new age one. They are replacing sinners with racists and the only racists will be whites and blacks who dare leave the progressive plantation.
    2 points
  6. Salyan

    Calvanism

    I suppose neither were first, as both streams of theology Originate from more recent founders. The Bible position would have been first.
    2 points
  7. I been in those services before and might even have been guilty of doing this.
    2 points
  8. You might be independent Baptist if this is your favorite joke..... "Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!" Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over." ~ Emo Phillips
    2 points
  9. "You can always test the quality of religious teaching by the enthusiastic reception it receives from unsaved men. If the natural man receives it enthusiastically, it is not of the Spirit of God." A. W. Tozer
    2 points
  10. Hasn't shaken me in a bit.
    2 points
  11. And so it goes with conventions, associations and fellowships; none of which were, or are authorized by Scripture or the God of Scripture. All of these are man-made institutions and subject to all of the sin and apostacy of the human mind.
    2 points
  12. You might be an Independent Baptist if everyone agrees to have lunch at...any buffet style venue.
    1 point
  13. SureWord

    Calvanism

    Calvin taught "Total Inability" of man or at least that's what his followers like Loraine Boettner taught. Most Calvinists hold that heretical point today. I'm not sure about Calvin himself. Sometimes the followers of a particular theologian/preacher take his teachings farther than he ever intended. I believe the same can be said for John Wesley. I've never read his writings either but I've heard he never explicitly said a saint could lose his salvation only that it appeared so in scripture. But his followers, like in Holiness or Wesleyan churches, have a believer losing their salvation over just about anything such as watching TV or wearing pantyhose. A Baptist pastor friend of mine who was once Holiness told me about this. Anyway, Total Inability is not the same as Total Depravity. Total Inability says that man is so depraved he can't even exercise freewill to believe the gospel.
    1 point
  14. Yeah, they get worried they may have accidentally walked into a Pentecostal church.
    1 point
  15. To the groom... Proverbs 31:10 "Who can find a virtuous woman?" Follow up with, 'If the wisest man in the world needed help to find a virtuous woman what makes you think you did? Probably not the best advice .
    1 point
  16. 1Timothy115

    Quotations Anyone?

    “Even the mob engaged in pillage and murder is not the disorganized thing it appears to be. Somewhere behind the violence is a leader whose ideas it is simply putting into effect." Aiden W. Tozer
    1 point
  17. When visiting a church and you see a few people raising their hands during a music special and the first thing you wonder is if you are in the right church, you just might be an Independent Baptist.
    1 point
  18. To me the SBC has been on a downward slope since the, so called, conservative takeover in the 1970s and 1980s. To me this was a move away from Christ and toward political politics. Again, to me it was mover about grabbing power than in presenting Christ. The Cooperative Baptist Fellowship and the Alliance of Baptist grew out of this when churches split away from the SBC. The church I attend was both SBC and American Baptist before the takeover. I live in a border state and it made sense to cooperate with both. A number of years after the takeover we explored how to divorce the SBC. There seemed no formal way other than to take SBC off the letterhead and stop giving money to the Cooperative Program. We are small but very diverse in ethnicity, racially, educationly, and in professions. What we do have is lots of love. It is a family. I was proud of our little group when we raised $5,000 to help a woman in the church who was in desperate need. We average 20 to 25 adults a Sunday and yet we have a budget of over $1,00,000. We have never ended a year in the red. We have direct contact with Baptist in Zimbabwe and helped an orphanage dig a well, yes, some of our members traveled there and helped. We helped them purchase a new pickup truck last year. We also have members who have worked in seminaries in Europe and Russia. This little group has friends and influence around the globe. Our goal has nothing to do with national politics, though we follow what is going on in both parties. Politics and Christ do not mix. When a church becomes involved in politics, politics does not become clear, but the church does become dirty. We are active in helping with a food bank, in helping the homeless and strive to improve race relations. There are some Baptist churches in our area who do not like us. I consider that their problem, not ours. So, our goal is to put Christ first and follow his life, leading, and teachings as shown in the gospels. We would like to be larger, but not over 100 people. To me even 100 might be too large. Looking back over our history that does not seem to be what God wants us to be. I consider myself a traditional Baptist, not a modern one. Blessings.
    1 point
  19. If you won't make any joyful noise to the Lord during worship service and feel uncomfortable by those who do but when you go to the game hollar and jump around with others like the Rapture is about to happen.
    1 point
  20. I don't see anything in scripture for or against conventions but I do know that any man-made group, organization or body will decline and apostatize over time especially if there's money and resources (which equal power) involved. What's happening in the SBC has nothing to do with "equality" or setting right the wrongs of the past it's just one big monetary shakedown part of the larger picture that's going on in America. If you don't believe that look at the co-founder of BLM who in her fight for "equity" (not equality she already has that) bought four mansions with white fragility money in the whitest neighborhoods she could find.
    1 point
  21. When you preach what is your style of presentation? I usually preach a passage and apply the main points to the person listening. Are you monotone? NO. I usually try to preach calmly and conversationally but authoritatively. Are you loud in emphasizing your points? Only occasionally when its natural to do so. I don't do it as part of a "preachers rhythm". Do you preach from notes, or off the top of your head "as the spirit leads" you? I usually make study notes that I refer to occasionally for verse references, main points or notes. However when preaching examples and applications are based somewhat "off the cuff style" but with passage and notes as reference points. How long is your typical sermon? Typically an hour or so when preaching chapter by chapter but if topical no more than 45 min. https://www.youtube.com/myfractalsoflife/
    1 point
  22. BB, can you please start a new thread for this so we don’t get off topic from the OP?
    1 point
  23. “Whenever the church gets in bed with politics, the church gets pregnant, and the offspring does not look like God the Father.” J. D. Greear
    1 point
  24. 1 point
  25. How can one “tolerate” Marxist ideologies that creep in? I’m sorry, I really don’t even understand the SBC. Can some one tell me how the structure of the SBC is any different from Presbyterians or the Catholic Church? What’s the point of the president? How does he —unify— the different churches?
    1 point
  26. Salyan

    Calvanism

    Off topic! Let's get back to the OP.
    1 point
  27. Yes, the problem is not with the leadership but with the false teachings and worldly philosophies they allowed into the convention pervasive. They've replaced the emphasis on the gospel of Jesus Christ to a social gospel. This is why I like Independent because it's on a smaller level and usually can be dealt with more easily. I Corinthians 11:18-19 18) For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19) For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
    1 point
  28. I totally agree, @SureWord. The SBC is splintering, and has been for several years now. The "splinters" are getting bigger as we type! My wife and I have been praying and conversing about leaving the SBC, though we love our SBC church. I'd like to be back in a more conservative church with a true mindset of serving the Lord instead of following a man. Litton is allegedly a good man at heart. I don't know. I've never met him or conversed with him, and I find the opportunity to do so highly unlikely anytime soon. Conventions and "fellowships" are very bad for the body of Christ. I've never been in favor of them, and was glad to get out of them when I left the BMA and when we left the GARBC and the IFFB. So thankful that there are many good churches in these groups who still stand for the Word of God and for following the Great Commission. But, I'm finding the being INDEPENDENT of all of these conventions and fellowship is the better way to go.
    1 point
  29. SureWord

    Quotations Anyone?

    "The plain truth is, within the space of our lifetimes, much of what Americans once almost universally abhorred has been packaged, perfumed, gift-wrapped, and sold to us as though it had great value. By skillfully playing on our deeply felt national values of fairness, generosity, and tolerance, these marketers have persuaded us to embrace as enlightened and noble that which all previous generations since America’s founding regarded as grossly self-destructive -– in a word, evil.” David Kupelian -The Marketing of Evil
    1 point
  30. It's possible Gerald was there. I tried to watch as much of it as I could on my laptop, but I didn't watch as much as I would have liked. Our internet connections out here in the boondocks isn't really great, even if it IS fiber optic! I correspond with many who were there, one being the man who is being sued by Kevin Ezell and the NAMB, along with the ERLC and is setting before the SCOTUS right now, waiting to be heard on the 17th (tomorrow) of this month. His name is Dr, Will McRaney. It's heartbreaking to see that things between SBC entities and persons is going before the unsaved. But, sometimes it's the only way to handle it when everything else has failed. I live just an hour S of Nashville, TN in a small town near Murfreesboro. I wish I could have been there as a messenger, but I don't think it would have made any difference.
    1 point
  31. Baptistsenior

    Calvanism

    I admit that I may have misunderstood your meaning. Being old or a women was only meant to show that I am not a pastor, theologian, etc. I'm just a old time Baptist that is still trying to learn. as the anabaptists etc of the past, I don't fit in either of those two belief systems. It seems to me that both are spawns of catholicism
    1 point
  32. What I fear is they will become more political and less Jesus centered, more Southern GOP and less gospel centered.
    1 point
  33. Pastor Scott Markle

    Calvanism

    Yeah, I can certainly accept being called "direct."
    1 point
  34. Psa 119:89 "LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven." I am curious, in what language is God's word forever settled in Heaven? If we are to believe that preservation is only in the original languages, (and thus, really, only then in the original autographs), then we must consider the language in which it was settled forever in Heaven. Greek? Hebrew? Proto-Hebrew? Or some heavenly writing? Since there are no existing copies of the autographs, that we are aware of, then the doctrine of preservation can't be of any use to anyone outside, maybe, the first 40-100 years of their writings, or less, lf we consider the wear and tear to regular use documents. The very meaning of "preservation" is "to guard, watch, watch over, keep". If Hos word, which clearly is written for all men of all times, is only preserved in the original language and autograph, it is pretty worthless 2000 years later.
    1 point
  35. Musician4God1611

    Calvanism

    I actually knew of (did not know her personally) a woman that did not believe she was one of the elect. She still felt like it was her duty to witness to try to help the elect find their way to the "truth".
    1 point
  36. Pastor Scott Markle

    Calvanism

    First, you act as if there is ONLY two possible positions to take. This in itself is a mistake. Both the position of the Calvinist and the position of the Arminian are SYSTEMS of belief, including multiple points of doctrine (even when we are narrowing our consideration only upon the doctrine of salvation). Some of those points of doctrine may be mutually exclusive, possessing only two options - the one option and its direct opposite. However, other of those points possess more than two options, allowing for more than only two systems of belief. Second, are you asking whether I can "prove" to YOU "100% beyond any reasonable doubt" which side is correct before I can recognize for MYSELF which side is "accursed," and thereby choose to separate MYSELF from ministry fellowship with them? Or are you asking whether I have "proven" to MYSELF 100% beyond any reasonable doubt which side is correct so that I can recognize for MYSELF which side is "accursed," and thereby choose to separate MYSELF from ministry fellowship with them? If you are asking the first question, I have no idea whether I could "prove" this to you, since I have never had any previous opportunity to attempt such an objective; however, I doubt that it would be possible since you seem to be portraying yourself as one who is already 100% determined to hold the position of "uncertainty." Yet I do not believe that I need to "prove" any such thing to YOU, in order for me to choose with whom I myself will or will not fellowship in ministry. Your recognition or denial of belief has no real bearing on my choices before the Lord my God concerning personal fellowship and separation. On the other hand, if you are asking the second question above, then I would answer that I most certainly HAVE "proven" to myself from Biblical study 100% beyond any reasonable doubt within my heart which side is correct; and it is NEITHER the Calvinistic system of belief NOR the Arminian system of belief. If we are considering only the so-called "five points" of the debate, I recognize that three of those points are mutually exclusive, possessing only two possible positions. On ALL three of those points I believe that the Calvinistic system of belief is in error and that the Arminian system of belief is correct. However, I recognize that the other two points are not mutually exclusive and actually posses more than two possible positions. Even so, on those two points I believe that both the Calvinistic system of belief and the Arminian system of belief are in error. Thus I hold to neither system of belief as a system. In addition, I possess NO reasonable doubts concerning the position that I hold. Even so, I am quite comfortable making choices of fellowship and separation over these matters. Actually, let us recognize that the word "accursed" is NOT my word, but is from GOD'S OWN WORD on the matter. Furthermore, let us recognize that the doctrinal divide between the systems of Calvinism and Arminianism are great enough that both sides as a full system cannot be correct. It is possible that both sides could be in error; but the contradictions of the two systems of belief against each other are such that they both cannot be correct. Even so, at least one of the two systems of belief has the doctrine of salvation wrong, which further means that at least one of the two systems of belief falls under the condemnation of Galatians 1:6-9. Even so also, this behooves us to determine through diligent, disciplined Bible study which this might be, in order that we do not join in error and thus fall under that same condemnation.
    1 point
  37. You must be quite blind. Apparently you don't know much about world history. Besides, this ISN'T a thread about politics in the world. It's about the SBC. Let's try to keep it there. Thanks.
    1 point
  38. The Socialist Democrat party (DEMOCRAT), has over the past 50 years continued to strive towards making this country Socialist in nature. They are doing exactly what the Socialists' who took over Russia back in the 20th century did, employing many of the same tactics that helped Russia to be toppled. You can't just look at the definition in the dictionary. You have to look at historical context, application, and results. Besides, I'm not a fan of ANY of the present parties in the American political system. None of them accurately represents what many people believe.
    1 point
  39. You might be an Independent Baptist if the pastor says “Let’s open in prayer” 20 minutes after beginning to preach.
    1 point
  40. SureWord

    Calvanism

    Yes, I never understood those that insist you have to be one or the other as if there are no other options.
    1 point
  41. Salyan

    Calvanism

    My salvation may not depend on my pastor’s doctrine, but my church membership would. I personally could not attend a church that taught Calvinism – it is such an offense to the character of God. I must confess that I don’t understand the OP. What does his pastor’s stance have to do with our responses? There are independent Baptists that are Calvinist, and independent Baptists that are not. And there is a third stance between Calvinism and Arminianism - It’s not just either or.
    1 point
  42. Ha ha ha...that's me. No way is the preacher preaching at me! Lol
    1 point
  43. You just might be an independent Baptist if upon entering the auditorium you look for open seats in the back first
    1 point
  44. You might be a Baptist if you argue with another Baptist over just about anything but also love him/her enough to jump in front of a speeding car.
    1 point
  45. Unless he was well acquainted with the meanings of their terminology compared to the mainline Baptists meanings of the terms Christians use, I don't believe that would be a wise thing to do. I NEVER let them into my home. I know a lot about the JW's, and I know that they are persistent. Too bad I haven't found that same kind of dedication in most Baptist churches. 2 John 1:10 KJV says "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not (emphasis mine) into your house, neither bid him God speed:" I believe this is a good policy to live by.
    1 point
  46. If you make it to heaven then you were Baptist even if you didn't realize it. Yes I said it! lol
    1 point
  47. So then, those who DO believe that God has preserved His Holy Word in and through a given translation need to provide Scriptural support that the Lord our God did indeed promise to preserve His Word through translations. If this can be done, then a given translation may be presented as fulfilling this divine promise (if it fulfills the Biblical requirements for such). However, if this cannot be done, then claiming such for any given translation goes beyond the specific doctrine that is taught in God's Holy Word concerning preservation.
    1 point
  48. BrotherTony

    Calvanism

    I have no problem with sitting under the teachings of either a Calvinist or an Arminian leaning preacher. As long as they're preaching from the pulpit, "For by grace ye are saved," that's enough for me...of course, depending on the attitude it's preached in. If it's preached as if the pastor and a certain few in the church were "elect" and the "pride" was showing though, as it was in one church my wife and I attended for a short while, we wouldn't be there long. I sat under a Calvinist preacher for three years and we never had a problem. I sat under an Arminian leaning preacher growing up, and the only problem I had with the way the Gospel of Jesus Christ was presented was this...it was "say this prayer and you're saved." Basically, a fire insurance policy with Jesus! UGH! The other Arminian leaning churches I've attended since I got married, I've never had problem with. As I stated, I've defended both positions, and I'll never reveal what my beliefs concerning this subject are, because I believe that's between God and me. Both sides have valid, Scripture backed points. The two factions need to learn how to get along and let GOD be the judge.
    -1 points
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