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When Did Jesus Die

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10 hours ago, DaveW said:

The Bible does indeed record non-saturday Sabbaths:

Lev 23:24  Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

Notice that it specifically refers to a date - 1st day of the seventh month - and commands that they shall have a sabbath.

This date could fall on any day of the week.

DaveW,

I understand and I agree that the Bible does talk about non Saturday Sabbaths. I have not disputed that, which is why I hold to a Thursday crucifixion. However, I shared that the Jewish Orthodoxy does not. They reject the "High Sabbath" being anything more than the normal Sabbath day. They would say that the Bible would be referring to the "Sabbath of the Passover".

Now, as to Lev, I would have to study that passage out a little more, but based on your quote, I would agree with your interpretation.

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12 hours ago, DaveW said:

The Bible does indeed record non-saturday Sabbaths:

Lev 23:24  Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

Notice that it specifically refers to a date - 1st day of the seventh month - and commands that they shall have a sabbath.

This date could fall on any day of the week.

Indeed.

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Why didn't the ladies come to the tomb after sunset saturday night?

Anyone have a good thought?

Sabbath finished at sunset, why wait until the next morning?

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6 hours ago, DaveW said:

Why didn't the ladies come to the tomb after sunset saturday night?

Anyone have a good thought?

Sabbath finished at sunset, why wait until the next morning?

Any answer that I give would be conjecture, and nothing more.  I myself am not aware of any Biblical reason.  If you have a Biblically rooted reason, I would certainly be interested.

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Travel after sunset was not normal. It would be normal to go to the grave first thing in the morning, which is what everyone did. They could have gone after sunset as there was nothing unbiblical, just not practical back then.

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6 minutes ago, Pastorj said:

Travel after sunset was not normal. It would be normal to go to the grave first thing in the morning, which is what everyone did. They could have gone after sunset as there was nothing unbiblical, just not practical back then.

That answer indeed would have been along the lines of my conjectural answer.  My conjecture would also have included the matter of light by which to do the work that they intended.

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But they had no problem travelling before dawn to do the job.

Life didn't stop for them at sunset.

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29 minutes ago, DaveW said:

But they had no problem travelling before dawn to do the job.

Life didn't stop for them at sunset.

Indeed.  But I would conjecture that they planned their morning so as to leave early and travel while it was yet dark, but also so as to be at the tomb and doing their work as the light was coming on.  This I conjecture as per John 20:1 & Mark 16:2.

John 20:1 -- "The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulcher."

Mark 16:2 -- "And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun."

By the way, I also happen to believe that Mary Magdalene got to the tomb before the rest of the women did, found the stone "taken away from the sepulcher," and then departed before the rest of the women got to the tomb in order that she might inform Peter and John.

________________________________________

Here then is a different question to consider -- At what approximate time of the day on Sunday did our Lord Jesus Christ rise from the dead?

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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1 hour ago, Pastorj said:

Any time between Sunset Saturday and Sunrise Sunday morning.

I am compelled to say that I disagree, as per Mark 16:9 -- "Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils."

The key for me is the usage of the word "early" (and the meaning of the Greek word from which it is translated) in the New Testament Scriptures.  There is no occasion wherein the word "early" (or the Greek word from which it is translated) is used for the evening hours of a day.  Rather, in every case wherein the word "early" (and the Greek word from which it is translated) are used in the New Testament for a time period of a day, it is always used for the morning hours of the day.  Thus I am compelled to conclude that our Lord Jesus Christ was risen in the early MORNING hours of Sunday, probably between 3-6 am.  (Note: The exact same Greek word is used within the same context in Mark 16:2, and is translated with the phrase "early in the morning.")

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9 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I am compelled to say that I disagree, as per Mark 16:9 -- "Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils."

The key for me is the usage of the word "early" (and the meaning of the Greek word from which it is translated) in the New Testament Scriptures.  There is no occasion wherein the word "early" (or the Greek word from which it is translated) is used for the evening hours of a day.  Rather, in every case wherein the word "early" (and the Greek word from which it is translated) are used in the New Testament for a time period of a day, it is always used for the morning hours of the day.  Thus I am compelled to conclude that our Lord Jesus Christ was risen in the early MORNING hours of Sunday, probably between 3-6 am.  (Note: The exact same Greek word is used within the same context in Mark 16:2, and is translated with the phrase "early in the morning.")

The problem with 3-6a is that is still considered the night. The Jewish day was 6a-6pish depending on Sunrise/Sunset. So if you hold to your definition of "Early" which sounds good to me since I haven't researched that, then the earliest he could have risen is at the first sign of the sunrise.

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But it doesn't say "when Jesus ROSE early..."

It says "was risen". 

He was risen.

Completed action. It is not talking of the time of His rising, but noting the fact that He was already risen at that time.

No other thoughts on why the women didn't come at the end of the Sabbath but waited until the next morning?

Edited by DaveW

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16 minutes ago, DaveW said:

But it doesn't say "when Jesus ROSE early..."

It says "was risen". 

He was risen.

Completed action. It is not talking of the time of His rising, but noting the fact that He was already risen at that time.

Actually, the phrase "was risen" is an archaic construction of a verb form that is no longer considered acceptable in present day English grammar.  That archaic verb form ("was risen") is a past perfect construction for an intransitive verb, and it is constructed by joining a form of the verb "to be" with the past participle of a verb.  In Mark 16:9 the English verb form "was risen" translates the Greek participle "anastas," which is the aorist, active, participle of the Greek verb "anistemi" (Strong's #450).  This aorist, active Greek participle simply means "having risen" in present English grammar ("was risen" in archaic English grammar), indicating an active action that had occurred in the past in relation to the main verb of the sentence.  In Mark 16:9 this active verb indicates that our Lord Jesus Christ had actively risen before He actively appeared unto Mary Magdalene.  Furthermore, this active verb is modified by the adverb "early," indicating that our Lord Jesus Christ had actively risen at a time period which may be defined as "early."  In fact, joining the Greek participle with the adverb we get the meaning "having risen early."  If the sentence had intended to communicate that our Lord Jesus Christ had already risen earlier, then some adverbial modifier indicating "already" would have been necessary and some some adverbial modifier  indicating "earlier" would also have been necessary.  On the other hand, the adverb that is employed means "early IN the morning," NOT earlier BEFORE the morning.  As such, I state again that I am compelled to hold that our Lord Jesus Christ rose again ("was risen") early sometime in the morning hours of Sunday.

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49 minutes ago, DaveW said:

No other thoughts on why the women didn't come at the end of the Sabbath but waited until the next morning?

Maybe they didn't come at the end of the Sabbath because he had not risen?       :8_laughing:

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12 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Maybe they didn't come at the end of the Sabbath because he had not risen?       :8_laughing:

Actually, I had considered saying something to the effect that it was not in God's plan for them to come until after the morning resurrection of Christ.  However, I assumed that the question was intended to ask what was the motivation from the perspective of the women themselves; so I refrained from presenting the above.

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I have a flair for brevity, it sometimes gets me in trouble because I don't take enough time to explain. Consequently there are times when my brevity is taken for sarcasm, especially at home.

By contrast, those I preach to or teach never get to see the brevity.     :8_laughing:

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21 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

I have a flair for brevity, it sometimes gets me in trouble because I don't take enough time to explain. Consequently there are times when my brevity is taken for sarcasm, especially at home.

By contrast, those I preach to or teach never get to see the brevity.     :8_laughing:

On the other hand, I myself have NO flair whatsoever at all for brevity, as many of you already are quite well aware.

Yet sarcasm - ah yes, the blessed gift of sarcasm -- that flows in our home and church like Niagara Falls.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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I would rather leave things here and not cause offense, and I can see no way further that will not cause offense, no matter how much I try to rephrase things.

When all is said and done, this is an academic argument as a few have said, and the argument is not worth the trouble it may cause.

Enjoy the discussion, I will watch with interest.

 

 

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On ‎4‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 1:49 PM, Pastorj said:

The problem with 3-6a is that is still considered the night. The Jewish day was 6a-6pish depending on Sunrise/Sunset. So if you hold to your definition of "Early" which sounds good to me since I haven't researched that, then the earliest he could have risen is at the first sign of the sunrise.


Every usage of the English word “early” in the King James translation of the New Testament is as follows:

Matthew 20:1 – “For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

Mark 16:2 – “And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.”

Mark 16:9 – “Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.”

Luke 21:38 – “And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.”

Luke 24:1 – “Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.”

Luke 24:22 – “Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulcher.”

John 8:2 – “And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.”

John 18:28 – “Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.”

John 20:1 – “The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.”

Acts 5:21 – “And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught.  But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.”

James 5:7 – “Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.”

Herein we notice that James 5:7 is the only passage wherein the word "early" is used for something other than a time of a day.  On the other hand, every other usage wherein the word "early" is used for a time of a day, it is used for the morning hours of the day.  

_________________________________________

Every usage of the Greek adverb “proi” (Strong’s #4404), which is the Greek word translated with the English word “early” in Mark 16:9, is as follows:

Matthew 16:3 – “And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

Matthew 20:1 – “For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

Mark 1:35 – “And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed.”

Mark 11:20 – “And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.”

Mark 13:35 – “Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning.”

Mark 15:1 – “And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.”

Mark 16:2 – “And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.”

Mark 16:9 – “Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.”

John 20:1 – “The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.”

Acts 28:23 – “And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.”

Herein we notice that every usage concerns the time of a day, and in particular it refers unto the morning hours of the day.  It might be noticed that in a few of these passages this word is joined with other time designations, as follows:

1.  in Mark 1:35 this word is joined with the time descriptive, "a great while before day."  
2.  In Mark 13:35 this word is placed in contrast with the time descriptive, "at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or . . ."
3.  In Mark 16:2 this word is joined with the time descriptive, "at the rising of the sun."
4.  In John 20:1 this word is joined with the time descriptive, "when it was yet dark."
5.  In Acts 28:23 this word is placed in contrast with the time descriptive, "from . . . till evening."

As such, we might understand that this word does not include evening, midnight, or the time of the cockcrowing in its definition, but that it can include "a great while" before the precise beginning of the day, while it might still be dark, yet close to the time for the rising of the sun.  For this reason I have estimated that our Lord Jesus Christ rose in early morning hours on Sunday, probably between 3-6 am, although I would lean toward the thought that it was closer to 6 am than to 3 am.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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11 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

I’m not really sure it’s all that important what day he died, but that he died for our sins, was buried and rose again. 

Brother Jordan, 

I would certainly agree that this detail is not nearly as important as those of our Lord Jesus Christ's crucifixion and resurrection themselves.  However, I would also contend that this detail is as important as the information whereby it is revealed in God's Holy Word.  For example, above you appear to make reference unto a quotation by the apostle Paul from 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; but you also left out a detail that the apostle included under inspiration of the Holy Spirit -- "How that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures."  The Holy Spirit viewed that detail as important enough to include in this Scriptural declaration for some reason.

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16 hours ago, DaveW said:

I would rather leave things here and not cause offense, and I can see no way further that will not cause offense, no matter how much I try to rephrase things.

When all is said and done, this is an academic argument as a few have said, and the argument is not worth the trouble it may cause.

Enjoy the discussion, I will watch with interest.

Brother Dave, Beloved in the Lord and Friend on the Forum,

I am not sure why you fear that you might offend me, no matter how vigorously you might defend your position against my own (unless you intend to say disparaging things about me personally, which I simply CANNOT image that you might do).  Certainly, I would probably defend my own position against yours with the same level of fervency.  However, I believe that we might be fervent in this regard, yet also remain friends.  Indeed, I pray that I have not presented myself as easily offended by such fervent and vigorous discussions.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

With the above in mind, I do have some questions that I had desired to present in regard to your position on this matter.  If you still prefer not to answer and not to continue the discussion, I will not be offended.  On the other hand, if you are willing to answer the question, they are as follows:

1.  According to your position, when precisely (or at least with as much precision as you might be able to offer) was Christ resurrected?

2.  According to your position, when precisely did the third day since (after) the crucifixion end?

3.  According to your position, what all precisely would be encompassed as the fourth day since (after) the crucifixion?

4.  As per your own question, what is the reason that you think for the women not coming to the tomb until the morning hours of Sunday?

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On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 12:36 AM, DaveW said:

I would rather leave things here and not cause offense, and I can see no way further that will not cause offense, no matter how much I try to rephrase things.

When all is said and done, this is an academic argument as a few have said, and the argument is not worth the trouble it may cause.

Enjoy the discussion, I will watch with interest.

 

 

I agree it is an academic argument. As long as people are civil, it's a fun discussion.

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1 hour ago, Pastorj said:

I agree it is an academic argument. As long as people are civil, it's a fun discussion.

Agreed somewhat.  I agree that it is somewhat an academic argument.  I agree that it can be a fun discussion as long as it remains civil and gracious (which should be true for us always).  However, I also believe that it is as serious as that which is revealed concerning it within God's Holy Word.

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3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Agreed somewhat.  I agree that it is somewhat an academic argument.  I agree that it can be a fun discussion as long as it remains civil and gracious (which should be true for us always).  However, I also believe that it is as serious as that which is revealed concerning it within God's Holy Word.

Since the day of his death is not clearly stated in Scripture, it's academic. Now when he arose is clear. It happened on the 1st day of the week, early in the "Morning". The exact time is also academic since the timing was not like it is today.

Everything else is clear.
He died on the cross and was buried and rose again on the 1st day of the week which was the 3rd day.

I have always held to a Sunrise resurrection, which holds true to scripture. But I can understand your 3a-6a argument, but I would counter by saying 3a was the start of the 4th watch of the night (4 - 3 hr watches) which ended at Sunrise (the Jewish Day).

 

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