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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
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      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

How do you feel about movies with magic and such?

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Mrs Smith
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I'm sure there are many different definitions given for "fantasy," but I think that the generally agreed-upon definition is "a genre of fiction that uses magic and other supernatural phenomena as a primary element of plot, theme, or setting." (I just pulled that particular one off Wikepedia.) IOW, "fantasy" at its root means "things that could not and do not happen in the real world." The very definition sets fantasy apart from the real world...Anything can happen in fantasy. Pinocchio's nose can grow when he tells a lie; a wooden puppet becomes a real boy; children can fly; animals can talk. So, "magic" in works of fantasy is really just the way things are in the fantasy world, and follows, if you will, the "rules" of that fantasy world. It has nothing to do with the real world. Works of fantasy are simply extensions of the imagination of the author...what would a world filled with hobbits, elves, wizards, orcs and dwarfs look like? How would those creatures interact? What if there were a powerful and dark force seeking to engulf that world? Etc.

That's why I say that people who complain about magic, mythology, etc., in fantasy really don't understand the nature or essence of fantasy. They fail to separate fantasy from the real world. So, when a fairy waves a magic wand in a fantasy story, they see only "sinful sorcery"; and when a wizard gazes into a crystal ball, they treat it like it's happening in the real world...but it just isn't!


If you define fantasy as the use of "magic" in a story then I would have to say I disagree with that class of fiction. I do not believe magic is a appropriate area for the mind to dwell not because it isn't real, but because it can be real and is a work of the devil. Magic is a replacement for God and that is never appropriate in any context. I was defining "fantasy" more broadly as any type of fictional story. Something that never really happened. More specifically I was speaking of things like "historical fiction" or even things that are flat impossible yet not presented as "magical" such as story lines like "Doctor Dolittle" for example. When you start to get into the world of of "magic" I draw the line though and the deeper into that it goes the more serious it is. As I see it fantasy is presenting an alternate reality in a story line, while magic is supernatural forces other than God doing something outside the ordinary even in the storyline. For example in the right type of story a talking animal is not magic, it is simply a alternate reality where talking animals is normal. It is magic though if talking animals is not part of the norm in the story and it is induced by some type of spell, or other "supernatural" force. To me it isn't so much what as it is why something happens in the story that defines whether it is magical or not. Edited by Seth-Doty
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If you define fantasy as the use of "magic" in a story then I would have to say I disagree with that class of fiction. I do not believe magic is a appropriate area for the mind to dwell not because it isn't real, but because it can be real and is a work of the devil. Magic is a replacement for God and that is never appropriate in any context. I was defining "fantasy" more broadly as any type of fictional story. Something that that never really happened. More specifically I was speaking of things like "historical fiction" or even things that are flat impossible yet not presented as "magical" such as story lines like "Doctor Dolittle" for example. When you start to get into the world of of "magic" I draw the line though and the deeper into that it goes the more serious it is. As I see it fantasy is presenting an alternate reality in a story line, while magic is supernatural forces other than God doing something outside the ordinary even in the storyline. For example in the right type of story a talking animal is not magic, it is simply a alternate reality where talking animals is normal. It is magic though if talking animals is not part of the norm in the story and it is induced by some type of spell, or other "supernatural" force. To me it isn't so much what as it is why something happens in the story that defines whether it is magical or not.


Good points.
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I'm not trying to zero in on anyone and by no means am I perfect. I have many of my own problems to still work through though this might help someone. (I'll try to keep it brief.)

I just would like to warn on the use of fiction (magic in particular). Surely it can seem like "Cinderella" can seem innocent harmless fun; but, what it truly is (in my view) is entry level into more occult like things.

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Before I was saved, I watched many things with magic in them. Progressively more dark, less innocent. The justification in my eyes was this.
Don't tell me Harry Potter (as an example) is bad if your watching things with magic in them too. (Cinderella (etc.)
It has a bad word, so what! I've heard them before!
Slowly (so you barely notice if you do at all) standards start to fall. Your mind (can (at the very least) become more perverse.

The argument i get often on my stance it. It helps Imagination... well... I don't think watching those things is what imagination needs..

Ge 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


I live my Christian life doing trying (only succeeding with the help of the Lord; (though I'm sure sometimes I fail..) not to have a double standard. Yes I'll leave myself open for this "The bible has magic!" well there are differences.

The bible is true; it is not fantasy. (I for one try to stay away from all fantasy and acting; which I believe it is not of truth. Acting can be linked also to hypocrisy. (I won't go to far into that.)

Scripture clearly condemns magic I find no such thing as "good magic"

Ga 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Ga 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Ga 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Ga 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ga 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Ga 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Ga 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

De 18:9 ¶ When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
De 18:10 There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
De 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
De 18:12 For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
De 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.


I'm sure there are other things that can be brought of up as well.. However I am blurry on this area; maybe someone can help me out on that... I believe there is a huge difference however i have a hard time putting it into words..

Either way I'm pretty sure some will disagree and justify it however.

Lu 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.


(I don't understandhow it can be justified to watch or read it? To me it is like unto music I think for the most part those here agree that it isn't right to listen to Rock or Pop; If you use similar thinking to what you use with music. I believe you would find also magic isn't right.. By all means; I would like to (at least my fleshly part) watch the anime and read the manga I used too. But I don't believe that it brings glory to God. Much the less I believe it hurts ones testimony. My sister (praise the Lord for answered prayer) quit reading and watching them too.. I got her into them. I'm so glad she is free from it. For her and myeself.. When i would see her reading manga. My flesh would truly lust after it.. It was hard on me as well..

Ro 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.
Ro 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.
Ro 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with [thy] meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Ro 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Ro 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Ro 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ [is] acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Ro 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Ro 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed [are] pure; but [it is] evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Ro 14:21 [it is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Ro 14:22 Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.


I try my very best not to have ANYTHING in my life that could be a stumbling block.. I know of some things I'm working towards removing now.. I ask for your all's prayers regarding that.


I'll post some links to some material that can goes more in depth if you all are interested..

http://biblicaltruth...0Transcript.htm or in audio.. http://www.sermonaud...SID=82509854244

http://www.sermonaud...?SID=8910843526



Finally;

Ps 1:1 ¶ Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Ps 1:2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Ps 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Ps 1:4 ¶ The ungodly [are] not so: but [are] like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Ps 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Ps 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.


and I like to end messages with this sometimes..

Eph 6:24 Grace [be] with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. [Written from Rome unto the Ephesians by Tychicus.]

Edited by Nathaniel
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As I see it fantasy is presenting an alternate reality in a story line, while magic is supernatural forces other than God doing something outside the ordinary even in the storyline.

Could you give an example of this, Seth (from a work of literature)? (I enjoyed reading your whole post, btw...I'm not trying to yank this statement out of context or anything...Just wondering what you're getting at here.)
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Nathaniel, what an *excellent* post. I have taken the liberty of copying it into my Bible study notes. This is a subject that interests me because the attorney I work for (I work as a legal secretary) also writes a series of books directed at adolescents. The books involve characters who are vampires, shape shifters, werewolves, and all other manner of abomination. This man has a family with four children, yet this is what he writes. He calls himself a Christian, but he doesn't believe there is anything wrong in writing books about this subject. He says he wants to make a great deal of money as the authors of the Harry Potter and Twilight series have done. It makes me shudder. I wonder if God will hold him accountable for the souls he has directed toward the occult by the books he has written.

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Could you give an example of this, Seth (from a work of literature)? (I enjoyed reading your whole post, btw...I'm not trying to yank this statement out of context or anything...Just wondering what you're getting at here.)



I believe I did cite an example from literature. The "Doctor Dolittle" series of books written by hugh lofting in the 1920's. Those are certainly fantasy, animals do not have languages per se, and people cannot speak with them by "learning their languages" but it isn't presented as magic. Now that isn't a whole hearted recommendation of the series as I remember from reading them as a kid that the drawings were often rather racist(think huge lips on blacks), and at least one book in the series picked at the biblical account of the flood, etc. I merely list it as an example of fantasy that isn't portrayed as magical. A contrasting example would be stories like cinderella, beauty and the beast, and so forth where magic and spells are not only present but a significant portion of the plot.
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Couldn't agree more, Seth! My pastor calls this the development of the "moral imagination" of a child. As a mom, I try to fill my children's minds with stories which develop their moral imaginations in such a way that they recognize truth as they encounter it...and not only recognize it, but love, love, love it for its own beautiful sake. Good literature (starting with Scripture, of course) not only instills this love for truth, but also makes cheap imitations and error look hollow, ugly, and worthless in comparison. Good literature has the power to shape all of our affections in this way.

What specific books have you found to be good examples of what we're talking about? (I'm asking partly because my older two have read just about everything in the house--which is quite a task at our house, let me tell you), and I'm looking to buy them some new books soon. They are 12 and 11 years old. I was going to check out the Prydain Chronicles and the Tripod trilogy...both series I read and reread as a child. Any other ideas?



Just noticed this. I am not sure we are thinking of the same type of thing as I don't like to find magic in a story, but anyway here are a few titles I remember that I enjoyed growing up.

Amos Fortune, Free Man by Elizabeth Yates(This is historical fiction based on a real person with most of the larger elements in the story being established fact. It also has a bit of a Christian theme to it.)

Red Falcons Of Tremoine by Hendry Peart (historical fiction set in the time of Richard the lionheart. Probably not for everyone but I enjoyed it and it is a well written story)

The golden hawks of Genghis Khan by Rita Ritchie (pretty much pure fiction but in a loosely historical setting. Again, a well written story.)

Snow Treasure by Marie Mcswigan( historical fiction that has at least a possibility of being based loosely in fact. Either way it is an excellent story with nothing at all objectionable in it that I can recall.)

Adam of the Road by Elizabeth Janet Gray( My memory of this one is a bit fuzzy but I remember thinking it was a very good story and is based around the lives of minstrels in the middle ages. If I recall this book is a bit thick and verbose but a good one for children that are active readers who like details and don't mind big words.)

Assorted "adventure" books by jim KJelgaard, joseph altsheler, and G. A. Henty + large numbers of books along those general lines.


As you can see I was rather fond of historical fiction and probably read that three or four to one over any other type of fiction with most of the rest being adventure or mystery type stories. Not sure if that was what you had in mind or not.
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I'm not trying to zero in on anyone and by no means am I perfect. I have many of my own problems to still work through though this might help someone. (I'll try to keep it brief.)

I just would like to warn on the use of fiction (magic in particular). Surely it can seem like "Cinderella" can seem innocent harmless fun; but, what it truly is (in my view) is entry level into more occult like things.

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

Before I was saved, I watched many things with magic in them. Progressively more dark, less innocent. The justification in my eyes was this.
Don't tell me Harry Potter (as an example) is bad if your watching things with magic in them too. (Cinderella (etc.)
It has a bad word, so what! I've heard them before!
Slowly (so you barely notice if you do at all) standards start to fall. Your mind (can (at the very least) become more perverse.

The argument i get often on my stance it. It helps Imagination... well... I don't think watching those things is what imagination needs..

Ge 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


I live my Christian life doing trying (only succeeding with the help of the Lord; (though I'm sure sometimes I fail..) not to have a double standard. Yes I'll leave myself open for this "The bible has magic!" well there are differences.

The bible is true; it is not fantasy. (I for one try to stay away from all fantasy and acting; which I believe it is not of truth. Acting can be linked also to hypocrisy. (I won't go to far into that.)

Scripture clearly condemns magic I find no such thing as "good magic"

Ga 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Ga 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Ga 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Ga 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Ga 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ga 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Ga 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Ga 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Ga 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

De 18:9 ¶ When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
De 18:10 There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
De 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
De 18:12 For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
De 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.


I'm sure there are other things that can be brought of up as well.. However I am blurry on this area; maybe someone can help me out on that... I believe there is a huge difference however i have a hard time putting it into words..

Either way I'm pretty sure some will disagree and justify it however.

Lu 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.


(I don't understandhow it can be justified to watch or read it? To me it is like unto music I think for the most part those here agree that it isn't right to listen to Rock or Pop; If you use similar thinking to what you use with music. I believe you would find also magic isn't right.. By all means; I would like to (at least my fleshly part) watch the anime and read the manga I used too. But I don't believe that it brings glory to God. Much the less I believe it hurts ones testimony. My sister (praise the Lord for answered prayer) quit reading and watching them too.. I got her into them. I'm so glad she is free from it. For her and myeself.. When i would see her reading manga. My flesh would truly lust after it.. It was hard on me as well..

Ro 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.
Ro 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.
Ro 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with [thy] meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Ro 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Ro 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Ro 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ [is] acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Ro 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Ro 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed [are] pure; but [it is] evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Ro 14:21 [it is] good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor [any thing] whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Ro 14:22 Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Ro 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.


I try my very best not to have ANYTHING in my life that could be a stumbling block.. I know of some things I'm working towards removing now.. I ask for your all's prayers regarding that.


I'll post some links to some material that can goes more in depth if you all are interested..

http://biblicaltruth...0Transcript.htm or in audio.. http://www.sermonaud...SID=82509854244

http://www.sermonaud...?SID=8910843526



Finally;

Ps 1:1 ¶ Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Ps 1:2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Ps 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Ps 1:4 ¶ The ungodly [are] not so: but [are] like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Ps 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Ps 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.


and I like to end messages with this sometimes..

Eph 6:24 Grace [be] with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen. [Written from Rome unto the Ephesians by Tychicus.]


Good post.

In the light of Scripture, I don't see how we can justify any type of magic. There is no such thing as "good magic". The Bible condemns all things associated with "magic". How then can "certain magic" or a "little magic" be acceptable. If a little leaven is bad how could a little magic be good?

Are Christians to deal with reality, with our eyes set on God and being about His business or should we be "escaping" into false worlds that contradict Scripture, take us away from that which is real and turns our focus away from God?
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I believe I did cite an example from literature. The "Doctor Dolittle" series of books written by hugh lofting in the 1920's. Those are certainly fantasy, animals do not have languages per se, and people cannot speak with them by "learning their languages" but it isn't presented as magic. Now that isn't a whole hearted recommendation of the series as I remember from reading them as a kid that the drawings were often rather racist(think huge lips on blacks), and at least one book in the series picked at the biblical account of the flood, etc. I merely list it as an example of fantasy that isn't portrayed as magical. A contrasting example would be stories like cinderella, beauty and the beast, and so forth where magic and spells are not only present but a significant portion of the plot.

Thanks, Seth. I think we're getting somewhere...or at least I'm understanding more about what you're saying. I see that I didn't phrase my question clearly; I was asking for you to give an example of literature in which "supernatural forces other than God" are "doing something outside the ordinary even in the storyline." I don't think that Cinderella, Beauty and the Beast, etc., are examples of this.

My question to you is this: how do we determine what is "outside the ordinary" or "supernatural" in the storyline of a work of fantasy, in a world in which "natural" laws are in fact defined by the story itself, and are, by definition, not the same as the natural laws in the real world? Cinderella wasn't surprised at the fairy godmother's abilities; some versions of the story even have her wishing that her fairy godmother would show up and help her. The very fact that there is a "fairy godmother" as a character in the story means that such characters and their actions are not "out of the ordinary" at all in that fantasy world...they are, in fact, indispensable to the plot of the story. They are, indeed, what make the story a fantasy in the first place. It wouldn't be a fantasy (unreal) story at all if a servant girl happened to dig up a dress and made her way to the ball on her own.

So, in using the phrase "outside the ordinary," aren't you really talking, not about the "storyline" of a work of fantasy (as you said), but about "reality"...something that would be "outside the ordinary" in our world? You are actually using reality, not the storyline as the definitive reference point for determining what is "outside the ordinary," yes? Edited by Annie
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Thanks, Seth. I think we're getting somewhere...or at least I'm understanding more about what you're saying. I see that I didn't phrase my question clearly; I was asking for you to give an example of literature in which "supernatural forces other than God" are "doing something outside the ordinary even in the storyline." I don't think that Cinderella, Beauty and the Beast, etc., are examples of this.

My question to you is this: how do we determine what is "outside the ordinary" in the storyline of a work of fantasy? Cinderella wasn't surprised at the fairy godmother's abilities; some versions of the story even have her wishing that her fairy godmother would show up and help her. The very fact that there is a "fairy godmother" as a character in the story means that such characters are not "out of the ordinary" at all in that fantasy world...they are, in fact, indispensable to the plot of the story. They are, indeed, what make the story a fantasy in the first place.


I would disagree. The "fairy godmother" is supposed to be a powerful supernatural being other than God even in the story line. She performs what are supposed to be supernatural "miracles" on the behalf of Cinderella and functions as a replacement for God. I do not think supernatural "gods" functioning as replacements for the true God are ever acceptable even in stories. There are only two supernatural powers, God and satan. If it is supernatural and isn't of the one it is of the other. The problem with books and what not that obscure that truth is that they can confuse many and lead to problems in the real world. According to the bible satan himself can be transformed into an angel of light. Stories where there are "good" supernatural figures other than God or his angels just makes it a little easier for satan to trick people in the real world. I have had people tell me with a serious face that they believed there are "good" witches and wizards and "good" spells as well as bad ones etc. All that is slowly absorbed from the wrong kind of stories where there are "benign" supernatural powers other than God. The supernatural world is real and it isn't something to be played around with lightly even in fiction.

It wouldn't be a fantasy (unreal) story at all if a servant girl happened to dig up a dress and made her way to the ball on her own.


A "unreal" story to me means simply that the story did not really happen and perhaps depending on the story could not have happened due to certain "facts" in the story that are not "facts" in reality.
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I would disagree. The "fairy godmother" is supposed to be a powerful supernatural being other than God even in the story line. She performs what are supposed to be supernatural "miracles" on the behalf of Cinderella and functions as a replacement for God. I do not think supernatural "gods" functioning as replacements for the true God are ever acceptable even in stories.

So, you are saying that the story of Cinderella takes place in the real world, the world of God and Satan?
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So, you are saying that the story of Cinderella takes place in the real world, the world of God and Satan?


Cinderella is a human being in the story is she not? Can a human being exist in a world without God or satan? Can any world exist without God? Edited by Seth-Doty
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Cinderella is a human being in the story is she not? Can a human being exist in a world without God or satan? Can any world exist without God?

So, you are saying that the story of Cinderella takes place in "the real world," the world of God and Satan? I guess I'm looking for a yes or no.
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So, you are saying that the story of Cinderella takes place in "the real world," the world of God and Satan? I guess I'm looking for a yes or no.


Matthew 21:24-27. :icon_mrgreen: If you give me a straight answer on my questions I will give you a straight answer on yours.
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So did the chief priests and elders in Matthew 21, where did that get them? :biggrin:

So, you're dodging? Fine, then. I'll give you a straight answer, then I'll expect your straight answer in return.

God is not the only creative being in the universe. He made men in His image, and, as such, they have the ability to create. The creator of Middle Earth is not God, but J.R.R. Tolkein. The creator of Narnia is not God, but C.S. Lewis. The creator of any "world" is the author of that world's story. The creator of the story makes the rules for that story. Can animals talk? Not in God's world, but in Beatrix Potter's. Can little boys fly? Not in God's world, but in J.M. Barrie's. Do animals think like humans? Not in God's world, but in Prokofiev's orchestral work Peter and the Wolf.

Now, your answer: Does the story of Cinderella take place in the real world, the world of God and Satan? Edited by Annie
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So, you're dodging? Fine, then. I'll give you a straight answer, then I'll expect your straight answer in return.

God is not the only creative being in the universe. He made men in His image, and, as such, they have the ability to create. The creator of Middle Earth is not God, but J.R.R. Tolkein. The creator of Narnia is not God, but C.S. Lewis. The creator of any story is its author. The creator of the story makes the rules for that story. Can animals talk? Not in God's world, but in Beatrix Potter's. Can little boys fly? Not in God's world, but in J.M. Barrie's.

Now, your answer: Does the story of Cinderella take place in the real world, the world of God and Satan?


Fair enough. Then yes. There is no world where God is not and all worlds that exist anywhere are real, though they may not be physical. Man cannot create any world without God including imaginary ones though many have tried in various ways. God is omnipresent. It is impossible to exclude God. However, those things including imaginary worlds that make an effort to deny the omnipresence of God and attempt to replace him with a different "god" or "gods" are wrong and are no place for a Christian to be.

"2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"
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Fair enough. Then yes. There is no world where God is not and all worlds that exist anywhere are real, though they may not be physical. Man cannot create any world without God including imaginary ones though many have tried in various ways. God is omnipresent. It is impossible to exclude God. However, those things including imaginary worlds that make an effort to deny the omnipresence of God and attempt to replace him with a different "god" or "gods" are wrong and are no place for a Christian to be.

"2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"

So...no Beatrix Potter? No J.M. Barrie? No Prokofiev? No Dr. Doolittle? Your reading list just got shorter, it seems. To say that God is present as a character in a world where animals talk is ludicrous and can get you into trouble quickly. God is not imaginary; therefore, He does not belong in imaginary worlds. To place Him there is to deny that He even exists at all. It is to say that He, along with elves and hobbits, is imaginary. "God" and "imaginary" do not belong in the same sentence, or the same category; they are mutually exclusive one from the other. To say otherwise is seriously mistaken. To be honest, this is the main problem I have with Patch the Pirate's stories: they mix reality and fantasy. Edited by Annie
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[so...no Beatrix Potter? No J.M. Barrie? No Prokofiev? No Dr. Doolittle? Your reading list just got shorter, it seems.


Fiction is fine and in subjection to God except where it contradicts Gods moral law and presents that as a positive thing. Such is the case when you have "magical" beings working supernatural events.


To say that God is present as a character in a world where animals talk is ludicrous and can get you into trouble quickly. God is not imaginary; therefore, He does not belong in imaginary worlds. To place Him there is to deny that He even exists at all. It is to say that He, along with elves and hobbits is imaginary. "God" and "imaginary" do not belong in the same sentence, or the same category; they are mutually exclusive one from the other. To say otherwise is seriously mistaken.


No such thing. Have you ever imagined yourself in an imaginary world doing imaginary things? Do not people enter imaginary worlds and fit in just as well as everything else? Now if people can enter a imaginary world with their minds how could God not go with them? If by entering a imaginary world people escaped God then God would not know mens thoughts nor would he speak to them through dreams as he does on occasion. Further, a Christian would have no business in any area God was not. The only remaining options would be the flesh or the devil, both of which are wrong. God created the imagination, to say he created it and yet somehow does not belong therein would be a serious mistake unless you somehow believe imagination is wrong all together and was not created by God.
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