Can a woman....

[HappyChristian]

I'm uncomfortable with the thought of a woman leading a choir - or even being the secretary who keeps track of minutes, ect. Why?

I don't think there is any scripture that particularly forbids it. I think the verses on women being silent in the church and not teaching could possibly extend to the choir leader - there is an aspect of teaching there, although it is more in the line of music and how the choir should sound, so no real doctrine there. However - would you ask a woman to lead in public prayer? Well, at choir practice time, does your choir pray before practicing? Who leads? The woman director? Or does she choose a man to lead? That, to me, could get kind of sticky.

Our secretary always reads the previous minutes to the whole church during a business meeting. Sure, a woman could do that - it's no real difference from giving a testimony, say. But I'm personally not comfortable with it.

The main reason for my discomfort is feminism. Feminism has become part of the warp and woof of most churches, IFB included, today - and so we don't always recognize it or its danger. Sure, we see it in the world, but we don't always see it in the church.

I do think that too many IFB put more restrictions on women than even God does, but that is most likely an attempt to answer the feminism that is so rampant.

As to women teaching boys...that can get kinda murky. In our church (I'm not saying we're always right - I just like the way we do things ), boys and girls are together through grade 3, and women are the teachers (although, if there were men who could and would do it, I think that would be great!). At grade 4, we separate them, and the boys go to a man teacher, with all men helpers; the girls go to a woman teacher with all women helpers. Grades 5 and 6 are the same way. Then in grade 7-12, they come together again and are taught by the youth pastor. You should see the excitement in the kids when I start telling them (about 3 weeks before promotion) that the girls won't have to put up with the boys, and vice versa. They love it!

I think definitely that by the time a boy is a teenager (if not earlier) his Sunday School teacher should be a man. Not just for doctrine's sake, but for life example sake, too. Men know how boys think, women don't always - even those who have sons!

But we need to be careful of applying this passage to every aspect of life, as PastorJ has pointed out. Why? Well, then - all those boys of mothers would have every right not to listen to their mothers, because they have no business teaching them anything....Carried to its logical end, that would truly be the result. So - at 13, no more homeschooling. No more mom telling son to take out the trash or make his bed, etc. Because that's a leadership position....

[His by Grace]

Pastorj, I believe you were using sarcasim Yet at the same time I don't understand your next sentence in using this Tampa,FL example. Quote, "If you wish to hold to the passage in question to mean that a woman can't lead a choir, it is this level that you must hold to because the passage says that she is to learn in silence" So,my question is about this quote-why? His by grace

[Pastorj]

When one uses scripture out of context it leads to beliefs that are just wrong and one must take the belief to an extreme, rather than it's immediate context.

Therefore, if you want to eliminate women from being choir directors by using this verse, then they can't be SS teachers either. The extreme to this is the tampa church example. This is why hermeneutics is so important, which a number of schools, including my alma mater have chosen to eliminate from their curriculum.

[Pastorj]

Luanne,

You make a great point that I didn't think about either. If this passage applies outside the church, then teenage boys would no longer have to listen to their mothers.

Thanks for the input.

[His by Grace]

Pastorj, This is what I thought you may have meant but now I'm not having to wonder. Thank you for explaining. The last sentence wasn't neccessary and I'm sorry you felt it was needed. His By Grace

[Revelation3:20]

But we need to be careful of applying this passage to every aspect of life' date=' as PastorJ has pointed out. Why? Well, then - all those boys of mothers would have every right not to listen to their mothers, because they have no business teaching them anything....Carried to its logical end, that would truly be the result. So - at 13, no more homeschooling. No more mom telling son to take out the trash or make his bed, etc. Because that's a leadership position....[/quote']

Ever wonder why so many homeschooling mothers seem to loose control and the respect of their sons when those sons start to hit puberty? While it might not occur in every case many sons will rebel against their mother giving commands in a way they would not rebel against their father. I have see it more times than I can count. This is just my opinion but I think many mothers would have a better relationship with their sons if they tried hard to give fewer commands to their maturing sons and left that up to the father when ever possible. This isn't meant to excuse sons for not honoring and respecting their mothers however.







That might be true were it not for the biblical directive to honor both our fathers and mothers.

[HappyChristian]

Well, I posted a reply, but it didn't come out. Don't know why.

Rev, actually I have never wondered why some women seem to lose control of their sons. I've seen it happen. Why does it happen? Two reasons: one is that mothers are too soft on them when they are younger, so when they get older there is no real impetus for the son to obey. Two is that the fathers are not always present - either they are really out of the family, or they are too busy or too oblivious to notice the son's attitude.

As you said, the Bible directs children to honor both father and mother. But here's where applying the usurping passage to every day life gets to be a problem. If a boy is taught that women have no authority over him (this would naturally cause him to put his mother in there, regardless of what the Bible says!), and then he is taught to honor his mother, confusion will result. How can he honor her if she has no authority over him? To a growing child, honor and obedience are very closely linked. A mother has authority over her child(ren), regardless of their gender, until the day they move out of her home. BUT! A young man who is taught that this passage means no woman has authority over him will not accept that.

I've seen that happen in schools where I've taught. Male teachers have told the male high school students that they must not allow women to rule them - it's usurping their authority if it's allowed. Now, forgive me, but no 17 year old of either gender has any kind of authority over me or any other woman in this world!!!! But if that idea is taught to them, they believe it. I pointed out a grammatical error in the graduation speech of one of my students...and his answer was to smirk at me and say, "Gettin kind of bossy, aren't you?" He treated his mother the same way. THAT is the result of trying to misapply scripture. The passage about usurping deals with doctrinal issues. It cannot be applied to every area of life without confusion ensuing.

[trc123]

We raised two sons and one girl. I can tell you they try that "rebel" thing with both mom and dad. The biggest difference I saw was that I NEVER EVER allowed them to be disrespectful to their mother; shutting down such attempts severely and quickly from the time they could understand.

When I was not at home, because I was working or any such time, they all knew that their mother was in charge. No questions. We worked in concert with one another and we never ever contradicted each other in front of the children. They were never ever allowed to "play" one of us against the other.

Now they are raising their own and totally understand dad's strict discipline.

P.S. It didn't hurt that my wife and I believe in the old fashion adage of "Spare the rod and spoil the child" and "One must apply the board of education to the seat of knowledge."

[HappyChristian]

We raised two sons and one girl. I can tell you they try that "rebel" thing with both mom and dad. The biggest difference I saw was that I NEVER EVER allowed them to be disrespectful to their mother; shutting down such attempts severely and quickly from the time they could understand.

When I was not at home, because I was working or any such time, they all knew that their mother was in charge. No questions. We worked in concert with one another and we never ever contradicted each other in front of the children. They were never ever allowed to "play" one of us against the other.

Now they are raising their own and totally understand dad's strict discipline.

P.S. It didn't hurt that my wife and I believe in the old fashion adage of "Spare the rod and spoil the child" and "One must apply the board of education to the seat of knowledge."

[Revelation3:20]

Rev, actually I have never wondered why some women seem to lose control of their sons. I've seen it happen. Why does it happen? Two reasons: one is that mothers are too soft on them when they are younger, so when they get older there is no real impetus for the son to obey. Two is that the fathers are not always present - either they are really out of the family, or they are too busy or too oblivious to notice the son's attitude.

I would agree that both of those things can be issues, particularly the second.

As you said' date=' the Bible directs children to honor both father and mother. But here's where applying the usurping passage to every day life gets to be a problem. If a boy is taught that women have no authority over him (this would naturally cause him to put his mother in there, regardless of what the Bible says!), and then he is taught to honor his mother, confusion will result. How can he honor her if she has no authority over him? To a growing child, honor and obedience are very closely linked. A mother has authority over her child(ren), regardless of their gender, until the day they move out of her home. BUT! A young man who is taught that this passage means no woman has authority over him will not accept that.[/quote']

I doubt that a man will necessarily have difficulty in understanding the positional difference between his mother and other women. I don't believe I have stated a mother has no authority over her sons, only that if she is wise she will be careful how and when she uses it. I suggested that if she deferred authority to her husband and let him handle things when ever possible it would make for a better relationship with her sons in my opinion.

[HappyChristian]

I would agree that both of those things can be issues, particularly the second.

[Revelation3:20]

Again, Rev, I am sorry if you felt that I was insinuating that you said some of the things I addressed. I wrote them, not because of what you said, but because I felt they fit into the discussion.

Ok, thank you for the clarification, I misunderstood the direction of your post then, we probably agree more than we disagree.

[JerryNumbers]

I believe we all will agree, the major key with children, whether boy or girl, you have to teach them to behave from the beginning, punish them when they don't, if you don't, you have already lost control and neither the father or mother will have their respect.

[HappyChristian]

I believe we all will agree, the major key with children, whether boy or girl, you have to teach them to behave from the beginning, punish them when they don't, if you don't, you have already lost control and neither the father or mother will have their respect.

[Wilchbla]

.....be a music or choral director in the local church?

I see no problem with it. There's nothing in scripture directly against it. In fact, there's nothing in the scripture specifically about choir directors so I don't see how any hard fast rules can be made about female choir directors.