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no name joe

Ignorance or what?

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Why did people vote for Obama if they did not want significant healthcare reform? It puzzles me. He made no bones about wanting to reform our healthcare system. I'm all for it (but this is not a healthcare debate here).

however, people seem incredibly ignorant on this issue.

Why did they vote for him to make health care reform (one of his main campaign issues), and now turn against him when he and Congress seek to carry out that promise?

Another thing that puzzles me....most folks over 65 on Medicare I visit with are happy with their medical care. Most folks needing nursing home care want to make themselves Medicaid eligible so the government pays for the nursing home. However, they say at the same time that they do not want universal health care. Do they only want the government involved when it benefits them?

I am not astonished at the ignorance, but I am.

I don't understand people and their voting behaviors and then getting upset at a Pres. and Congress working to do what they promised to do in the campaign.

Socialized medicine now! (just trying to stir things up here. lol)

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Perhaps some of the people who "voted for Obama" that are now protesting don't realize they voted for Obama; you'd have to ask ACORN about them.......

P.S. A large percentage who voted for Obama, didn't even know what he stood for when polled in survey upon survey; they were voting "against Bush." Most didn't realize they could have voted for McCain and would not have been voting for Bush. I see it as a vote for Obama was a vote for amateur hour; while a vote for McCain was a vote for an adult who had sacrificed much for this country and put his country ahead of his party (can't say that for Obama).

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-edit-
however, people seem incredibly ignorant on this issue.

-edit-



You are talking about the leadership in Congress, right? :lol:

.

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Why did people vote for Obama if they did not want significant healthcare reform? It puzzles me. He made no bones about wanting to reform our healthcare system. I'm all for it (but this is not a healthcare debate here).

however, people seem incredibly ignorant on this issue.

Why did they vote for him to make health care reform (one of his main campaign issues), and now turn against him when he and Congress seek to carry out that promise?

Another thing that puzzles me....most folks over 65 on Medicare I visit with are happy with their medical care. Most folks needing nursing home care want to make themselves Medicaid eligible so the government pays for the nursing home. However, they say at the same time that they do not want universal health care. Do they only want the government involved when it benefits them?

I am not astonished at the ignorance, but I am.

I don't understand people and their voting behaviors and then getting upset at a Pres. and Congress working to do what they promised to do in the campaign.

Socialized medicine now! (just trying to stir things up here. lol)


kind - when the government takes over social programs, problems result. Social security is one major proof of that. That system is broke: the money that currently goes into social security is what pays benefits for those who have it now. Why? Well, because gubmint screws things up.

Medicaid/medicare is another example. When that was brought to pass, people thought it was going to be so wonderful. But there are many doctors who refuse to take patients under that program. Why? Because they don't get their money!

I can't speak as to why people who voted for him are now against him. I agree: he made no bones about the fact that he wanted to socialize this country (I know you voted for him, and I still can't figure out why, but that's another thread :wink). I truly believe that a good lot of people didn't even realize what he was saying. I know that everyone I work with voted for him. And yet, when I would bring up things he said in his campaign speeches, they would just look at me and say they didn't hear that!!! ??? How could they not? Well, they didn't want to hear it. They wanted to believe that he was some great saviour who would stop the war (even though he was talking about going into Pakistan...) and bring prosperity back to our country.

When the government puts its fingers into the areas that our government has (and that includes past POTUS'), there is nothing but trouble for the country. And that includes health care.

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A doctor friend of mine tells me Medicare is the easiest system within which she can get paid. She tells me many private insurance companies are much more difficult about paying. I don't know if this is across the board, but I have four friends who are all doctors (one my brother), and they all tell me Medicare is an easy system to get paid through.

Not to get into a debate about health care.....this thread is about ignorance.

I'm still astonished at how ignorant many people can be. Beware the masses!

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Perhaps some of the people who "voted for Obama" that are now protesting don't realize they voted for Obama; you'd have to ask ACORN about them.......

P.S. A large percentage who voted for Obama, didn't even know what he stood for when polled in survey upon survey; they were voting "against Bush." Most didn't realize they could have voted for McCain and would not have been voting for Bush. I see it as a vote for Obama was a vote for amateur hour; while a vote for McCain was a vote for an adult who had sacrificed much for this country and put his country ahead of his party (can't say that for Obama).


I odn't see how poeple can vote for a candidate and not know what they stand for. Obama was very clear that he wanted to reform health care. I don't understand the same people now criticizing him for doing that very thing.

I disaree with you about McCain/Obama. Both men are good men...they just have very different ideas and beliefs about where they wanted to lead the country. Both want what is best, but they disagree on what the "best" is.

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Why did people vote for Obama if they did not want significant healthcare reform? It puzzles me. He made no bones about wanting to reform our healthcare system. I'm all for it (but this is not a healthcare debate here).

however, people seem incredibly ignorant on this issue.

Why did they vote for him to make health care reform (one of his main campaign issues), and now turn against him when he and Congress seek to carry out that promise?

Another thing that puzzles me....most folks over 65 on Medicare I visit with are happy with their medical care. Most folks needing nursing home care want to make themselves Medicaid eligible so the government pays for the nursing home. However, they say at the same time that they do not want universal health care. Do they only want the government involved when it benefits them?

I am not astonished at the ignorance, but I am.

I don't understand people and their voting behaviors and then getting upset at a Pres. and Congress working to do what they promised to do in the campaign.

Socialized medicine now! (just trying to stir things up here. lol)


Well, I personally don't want gov't run health care because I believe it is just more socialism; however, I am not lacking compassion for those who do not have any insurance at all and WANT insurance. However, many of those people are currently covered under state health insurance plans. There ARE people in our country, though, who cannot get insurance for whatever reason. I could understand our gov't wanting to help those people out........but THAT isn't what they are trying to do. They want EVERYONE on board with this gov't health care eventually, and there are videos circulating on the internet of Obama that verify that fact. Right now they say the health plan will be voluntary--right. Those turkeys have been sending me all this info about what they want to do and part of their reform is going to be to place restrictions on insurance companies. The type of restrictions they are talking about in the world we live in right now, will virtually drive those private companies out of business. http://www.whitehouse.gov/health-insurance-consumer-protections/ Also, check out these videos they made to counter act all that "mis information".....you can read between the lines. http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/?e=10&ref=text When I see a lot of people who voted for Obama who are not happy with his planned "changes", I think of people who just were not counting the "cost". Somehow, I think they were expecting something for nothing, but the reality check may be that someone is going to be paying for these services, and it isn't going to be just the "wealthy". Taxes are going to be going up! Utility costs are going to be going up! All prices for everything are going to be going up! Oh, and the deficit......is going up! I think for many of the people who voted for Obama it is the money he is spending that is sounding the loudest alarm right now, not the actual health reform and the fact that they are rushing it.

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I don't know about the rest of you but I have found that a lot of the anti health care reform is full of false propoganda. I was shocked when I heard on AFR that the proposed system would cover abortions and that persons over a certain age would be denied coverage in favor of younger and more productive tax payers. So I did some research. I actually read the bill. And guess what, it's all a bunch of lies. There is nothing in there about abortion or cost efficiency analysis based on age. Now don't get me wrong. I'm still not on board with what is currently being proposed (although I am highly in favor of some kind of reform). But I am very disappointed with those that strongly oppose this system. By lying and misrepresenting the facts, a lof of groups that would have had my support have totally alienated me. Nothing but Nazi like propoganda.

On another note, I find it scary that no one is looking to the health care professionals to play their part in health care reform (it is also interesting that various health care providers organizations are some of the largest contributors to the Republican party). Let us not forget that these same people who take the hippocratic oath to "do no harm" are the same people that are leveraging mine and you health and well being to their economic benefit. We ask the various labor union employees to take pay and benefit cuts to keep American industry from sinking. Why haven't we done the same for doctors?

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I don't know about the rest of you but I have found that a lot of the anti health care reform is full of false propoganda. I was shocked when I heard on AFR that the proposed system would cover abortions and that persons over a certain age would be denied coverage in favor of younger and more productive tax payers. So I did some research. I actually read the bill. And guess what, it's all a bunch of lies. There is nothing in there about abortion or cost efficiency analysis based on age. Now don't get me wrong. I'm still not on board with what is currently being proposed (although I am highly in favor of some kind of reform). But I am very disappointed with those that strongly oppose this system. By lying and misrepresenting the facts, a lof of groups that would have had my support have totally alienated me. Nothing but Nazi like propoganda.

On another note, I find it scary that no one is looking to the health care professionals to play their part in health care reform (it is also interesting that various health care providers organizations are some of the largest contributors to the Republican party). Let us not forget that these same people who take the hippocratic oath to "do no harm" are the same people that are leveraging mine and you health and well being to their economic benefit. We ask the various labor union employees to take pay and benefit cuts to keep American industry from sinking. Why haven't we done the same for doctors?

"But I am very disappointed with those that strongly oppose this system"

I strongly oppose it and:

Here's why PtWild...........It's kinda like "sin", it starts with little things, then the little things get bigger, and it grows, and before you know it, it's out of control. All the government is wanting to do, is just start the medical reform and then it has it's foot in the door and before you know it........COMMUNISM (well we're already there, looks like it) !!!!!! yep........keep thinking we need reform........EVEN SO COME QUICKLY LORD JESUS,,,,,I don't want my grand daughter or my family to go through what's about to come down on us. My wife is a Canadian citizen and she told me it takes over a year for a woman to get a mammogram (even if they feel like they have cancer). She was in a 40 car collision in Halifax, Nova Scotia and all her treatments were at home. While awaiting medical care, transported to medical facility, no medication was offered to relieve her pain. Read about the medical care in Canada and The United Kingdom.....that's where we're headed......WAKE UP MAN !!!!! As long as God provides income to pay my insurance company, I think we have the right to choose our doctors, I don't need a government telling me when I can and can't get treatment. Truth is, the government wants control of the insurance companies, just like GM and Chrysler.......Look at the largest building in most cities, most cases, it's an insurance company. It's no secret that they make money and lots of it !!!!! THE GOVERNMENT WANTS IT !!!!!!

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Pt Wild says:
"On another note, I find it scary that no one is looking to the health care professionals to play their part in health care reform"

One other thing PtWild.......

There aren't enough doctors in Canada nor the UK, they're paid by the GOVERNMENT. Doctors working for the Government (doing what the Government allows them to)........Where's the "free enterprise"?..., it's going down the tubes........GOD HELP US !!!!!!

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yes, They were tired of war. They probably didn't think national healthcare would actually go through. (just like how some people don't think we would ever make abortion illegal so that's why they gave up and vote for a democrat)

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now, it is true that they may cover abortion. They would probably refer it as another term such as "birth control" since they already cover IUD, birth control pills, etc through medicare and medicaid. btw, awhile back, medicaid one time did cover abortions. I don't know if they still do or not. Well at least some states did.

Now, I wonder about how they going to handle people who just won't take care of their health but keep coming back to their doctors for treatments so they can live long as they can. Like overeating, eating food that they are allergic to, don't watch their sugar (diabete), don't take their medicine like they suppose to, smoking, drinking, and even biting nails and scratching their skin which result infections... What is gov't going to do if people don't take responsible of their own health. Is the gov't going to rise taxes to cover these people or are they going to make restrictions? Such as "what the point of treating him if he keep doing what he is doing???" Everyone have bad habits which i feel it is no excuse avoiding treatments of any kind.

Give the gov't the power to handle our healthcare would mean they get to make all kinds of decisions what they feel is best (especially what they feel would save money). I support helping people where it is needed, but that's where I draw the line.

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"But I am very disappointed with those that strongly oppose this system"

I strongly oppose it and:

Here's why PtWild...........It's kinda like "sin", it starts with little things, then the little things get bigger, and it grows, and before you know it, it's out of control. All the government is wanting to do, is just start the medical reform and then it has it's foot in the door and before you know it........COMMUNISM (well we're already there, looks like it) !!!!!! yep........keep thinking we need reform........EVEN SO COME QUICKLY LORD JESUS,,,,,I don't want my grand daughter or my family to go through what's about to come down on us. My wife is a Canadian citizen and she told me it takes over a year for a woman to get a mammogram (even if they feel like they have cancer). She was in a 40 car collision in Halifax, Nova Scotia and all her treatments were at home. While awaiting medical care, transported to medical facility, no medication was offered to relieve her pain. Read about the medical care in Canada and The United Kingdom.....that's where we're headed......WAKE UP MAN !!!!! As long as God provides income to pay my insurance company, I think we have the right to choose our doctors, I don't need a government telling me when I can and can't get treatment. Truth is, the government wants control of the insurance companies, just like GM and Chrysler.......Look at the largest building in most cities, most cases, it's an insurance company. It's no secret that they make money and lots of it !!!!! THE GOVERNMENT WANTS IT !!!!!!


This is exactly the kind of fear mongering propaganda I am talking about. People use words like "socialism" and "communism" because their generation sees views these words as scary (mainly the product of being the children of WWII vets and living during the Vietnam episode). Most of the time, the people using these words don't even know what they mean. Or, they use some blanket noncontextual definition from a standard dictionary. It's like the guy at Sen. Specter's town hall meeting yesterday that said he wanted the legislation written on a junior high level so he could understand it. Please. If he can't understand it, then we'll tell him what it means.

The House bill currently on the table in no way prohibits a person from continuing their existing private insurance just as it exists today. It does provide government insurance for those that cannot afford private health care and those who can afford it but are being turned away by the private sector due to preexisting conditions. It in no way limits your choice of doctor any more than the private sector does (it is of course limited in that if the doctor will not accept the insurance, you can't go there, but that is the way it is now). Although I have not read Canada or the U.K.'s legislation regarding national health care, I do not believe that the bill being currently proposed is an exact copy or even similar in all respects. In any event, we need some kind of reform. Children in the country DIE everyday because they can't afford adequate health care. People involved in car accidents, who could fully recover and begin contributing to society again with adequate health care, are now classified as "disabled" for life.

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Please. If he can't understand it, then we'll tell him what it means.


Now that is too funny!

Here little citizen, if you can't understand our legal double speak that took 100 Harvard educated medical lawyers 3 months to write we'll explain it to you, just TRUST us. No need to write it so that the masses can understand it!

Reminds me of that cartoon with the little girl who is chasing the cat saying, "Come here little kitty, I won't hurt you, I just want to pet you!"

Yeah, RIGHT!

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Now that is too funny!

Here little citizen, if you can't understand our legal double speak that took 100 Harvard educated medical lawyers 3 months to write we'll explain it to you, just TRUST us. No need to write it so that the masses can understand it!

Reminds me of that cartoon with the little girl who is chasing the cat saying, "Come here little kitty, I won't hurt you, I just want to pet you!"

Yeah, RIGHT!


By "us" I meant attorneys, or those who are trained in drafting legislation. The reason the legislation is hard to understand is because it is a very comlicated issue that touches on serious matters. It must be written so as to address several situations, all the while addressing economics as well as social issues. There is no "easy" or "elementaray" way to do it.

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For the legal record, I believe "elementaray" should be spelled "elementary." But I could be wrong.

I have a very revolutionary idea. Instead of reforming health care first, why don't we reform the legal system and provide tort reform first? That would provide a cost savings to the health care system of 20% (I'm guessing, but wouldn't be surprised if I was close).

Did you know there are more lawyers than doctors in the USA? {P.S. Probably not, but I thought it was funny}

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pt, my friend, for you to claim that people who are leery of socialism is only because their generation views the words as "scary" shows that you really don't understand what it is nor how close we are to a socialist state.

As for the fear mongering an propoganda: you weren't around when the "Great Society" was proposed and instituted. And you most likely don't visit the Appalachian areas of this utopia. Sad, sad situations. Why? Because the government program that was supposed to "help" these people out of poverty simply enslaved them: each generation gets more dependent on the welfare that is handed to them. Goodness, when I was a teenager in WV, there was so much unwed teen pregnancy...and nobody worried about it 'cause they could get welfare. I lived there and saw the result, pt, not only in my neighbors and friends, but amongst my own family. And it's only gotten worse, not better.

What does that have to do with health care? Simple: it's a government handout program. IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL for the federal government to stick it's nose into this kind of thing. And said federal government knows it and doesn't care. What the government wants is control. Whether you like that or not, that is what this government is aiming for. And, my friend, fearmongering propoganda in your mind or not; simply being scared of "words" that are generational or not - that is socialism. And, if the Lord tarries, one of these days you will see that.

Funny. My grandpa warned people about FDR and the damage he would do to this country. But he got elected. And he began some horrible social programs (social insecurity). Now, all these years later, young people say it's a good thing...but a good number of older people realize that it has stolen the initiative that Americans used to have. Save money for retirement? No need, the gubmint takes it from my check and I'll get a check back...if there's any money left when I get that old...(BTW - isn't it interesting: it's wrong to double tax...but people get taxed on their entire income before social security is taken out - and then, when people get their social security checks, they are taxed again...)

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For the legal record, I believe "elementaray" should be spelled "elementary." But I could be wrong.

I have a very revolutionary idea. Instead of reforming health care first, why don't we reform the legal system and provide tort reform first? That would provide a cost savings to the health care system of 20% (I'm guessing, but wouldn't be surprised if I was close).

Did you know there are more lawyers than doctors in the USA? {P.S. Probably not, but I thought it was funny}


Is this supposed to be one of those "gotcha" moments that proves something substantively?

Anyway. Most states already have tort reform, which in my opinion is a poor choice of reform. In the state I live in, a doctor can come to work drunk, chop off your right leg when it is the left that has to be removed, and the most you can get out of him is $1 million. Imagine yourself with no legs, or arms, or even dead. Imagine the affect it has on your family. And $1 million is supposed to replace all that.

And there should be more lawyers than doctors. Only sick people need doctors. Everything on the planet needs a lawyer.

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Are you sure they die because of lack of insurance? I can't imagine anyone saying "oh he is dying, but I can't afford take him to the doctor, so I'll just let him die" People do that with dogs and cats (remembering when one of our cat got hit by a car and everyone stood around and let him die because taking him to the vet was too expensive). The only thing I would believe that people are in debt because of lack of insurance and cut back treatment where they feel their child can survive without it (my son has a hernia, but it doesn't hurt him so I am delaying it because he will be alright without the surgery. Even his doctor check it out, and knows he is ok without the surgery) .

I do know that premature babies die all the time but it never because of no insurance. It's because the situation is out of our hand. That goes with most children who died. Such as SID and such. Or parents are just plain neglectful.

My aunt was in an car accident, and yes, it can disabled you for life even if you could contribute to society again. She had a lot of therapy, but she will never be like she used to be. She is working now, but she can easily lose her job too because of the brain damage she had because of her accident.(her accident cause her to struggle with communication)

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