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I think this is folly 

farouk,   re: "What is your point?"   That you can’t definitively place the resurrection on the first day by using first fruits.

You should tell the guy on the other forum that just because some human wrote it, doesn't make it authoritative. He shouldn't be looking for human confirmation - just sticking to the Bible! :)

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On 8/5/2009 at 5:14 AM, rstrats said:


A poster on another forum, the topic of which was questioning the authenticity of the last 12 verses in the book of Mark, wrote that it doesn't really matter because there is no doctrinal teaching in Mark 16:9-20 that cannot be proved elsewhere in agreed Scripture.

I made the mistake of sticking my nose into the discussion by pointing out that actually there is a statement in verse 9, as the KJV and similar versions have it, that is used for a doctrinal teaching that is to be found nowhere else in Scripture. As the KJV and similar versions translate it, it is the only place that puts the resurrection on the first day of the week. I then suggested that whenever the discussion of seventh day observance versus first day observance comes up, first day proponents frequently use the idea of a first day resurrection to justify the change, and when questioned about the day of resurrection, quote Mark 16:9. The poster came back with: Quote a published author who has done that. - I have not yet been able to come up with one. Does anyone here know of one?
 

Back on topic.

1: The veracity of these verses is absolutely important, despite what the aforementioned poster said, because the only manuscripts that remove them are of the revised critical text based primarily on two very shaky manuscripts, one of which (Sinaiticus) is probably a forgery, and the other (Vaticanus) is either a medieval manuscript, or at east, heavily altered during that time period, (Neither Oldest Nor Best by David Sorenson). All other ancient manuscripts and writings include that portion of scripture.\

2: As for that being the only place in scripture that teaches that Jesus rose ON the first day, it is the only one that specifically says it, but there are other places where, with simple math, we see it to be the case, despite arguments to the contrary, that shows that Jesus said He would be three days and three nights in the earth, so it clearly had to be the first day He rose. However, for the sake of argument, that one verse does make it crystal clear and it should be beyond disagreement for those who believe the scriptures. 

3: There was never any "change" from 7th day to first day. The Sabbath remains the sabbath for Israel, those for whom it was given-it was never given to the church to follow, as they were not a part of the Sinaitic covenant-it was between national Israel and God (Ex 24:3-8). In fact, the Sabbath was not originally a day to assemble to worship God, it was a day prescribed for Israel to remain in their homes and rest from their labors-this changed during the exile in Babylon, where the Synagogue was created for the people to worship, and done on the Sabbath, as they could not be allowed to have a day of worship AND a day of rest. 

4: that the early church began to meet on the first day, specifically, was written by very early writers:

     

Quote

Ignatius of Antioch

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death—whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master (Letter to the Magnesians(shorter) Chapter IX.—Let us live with Christ [A.D. 110]).

During the Sabbath He continued under the earth in the tomb in which Joseph of Arimathæa had laid Him. At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation, then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; the Lord’s Day contains the resurrection (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians Longer Versions. Chapter IX.—Reference to the history of Christ.)

Quote

100 AD BARNABAS "We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (The Epistle of Barnabas, 100 AD 15:6-8).

Quote

150AD JUSTIN: "And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." (First apology of Justin, Weekly Worship of the Christians, Ch 68)

 

 

The above are some "published" writers on the subject, very early believers who wrote, in letters, (epistles) that the regular habit was to meet on the first day. Now, the fellows you spoke of will surely complain that they must have modern authors of modern writing, but I will trust what early believers say they actually did, believers, by the way, well before there was a Catholic church to "change the Sabbath". 

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On 2/25/2021 at 7:12 AM, rstrats said:

1 Timothy115,
re:  "No, it also has to do with what day you worship the Lord."

  Nothing is said with regard to the Sabbath or the first day of the week.  

But even if Paul ... it doesn't show that he was arguing for a change of observance from the seventh day of the week to the first day of the week because of the resurrection and was using Mark 16:9 to support a first day of the week resurrection. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hasting's Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics.
A footnote in Calvin'sCommentaries  regarding verses 5-6:  
Expositor's Greek Testament with reagard to verse 5:
 

As far as I'm concerned  esteeming days the same or differently very much is beyond food. You take it the way you want to. Your references, I disagree with all of them. Hasting's Encyclopedia search tool from the online resource Encyclopaedia of religion and ethics : Hastings, James, 1852-1922 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive can't locate any of the text you quote.

For Calvin's Commentaries, you left out particular comment (by the editor not Calvin) "It has been suggested as a question by some, whether the Christian Sabbath is included here? The very subject in hand proves that it is not. The subject discussed is the observance of Jewish days, as in Galatians 4:10, and Colossians 2:16, and not what belonged to Christians in common. — Ed." So I see this editor believes Romans 14 is only for the Jew not the Gentile, so the Christian Jew isn't to respect ritual days one above another. But he does concur it discusses days, you truncated quote was a little misleading,

Finally I didn't look at your refernce William Nicoll's 'Expositor's', but if your quote is correct he certainly contradicts himself in his own commentary (Expositor's Bible Commentary, by William Nicoll) for Romans 14 where he spends most of a long paragraph discussing days and observance of days, as the meaning of it. I don't beieve you are going to find someone recently (other than at OB) or from antiquity either who said, "And thus now you shall worship on the first day instead of as delivered in the law to the nation of Israel."

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