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John81

Palin resigning as Alaska governor

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Thank you, Crush, but as I said I'm not going to argue. This will be my last post to you. You can believe I am wrong all you want to - it doesn't concern me in the least bit. As I said, neither my conscience, nor my heart, nor my Bible (and it is KJV) smite me over this, so I am content.

"Great men of the faith" is a misnomer. There are no great men, only a great God. Men are fallible, God is not. I do not care what men think - except, as I said, one man. And that is, biblically, the only one who really, truly matters to me: my husband. Who, just for sake of clarity doesn't agree with me: I agree with him.

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Very well, ma'am. I will not continue any further on this topic with you.

I just ask that you would seriously consider this and think on it, looking at Scripture and Scriptural principles.
God bless,
Crushmaster.

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Very well, ma'am. I will not continue any further on this topic with you.

I just ask that you would seriously consider this and think on it, looking at Scripture and Scriptural principles.
God bless,
Crushmaster.


Okay, I know I said that was my last post, but I have to answer this. Crush, just so you know - I do seriously consider this, and thought on it, and looked at Scripture and scriptural principles. And have done so since way before you were born. As has my husband. Thank you for your concern (albeit rather than concern, it comes across to me more as arrogance), but it is misplaced.

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Lets see, if a married woman becomes president of this United States, she them has authority over her husband.

But some say, she can do this if her husband OK's it. But a husband cannot OK something that God says is wrong, a wife taking authority over her husband is wrong, even a sin. A husband cannot give his wife permission to sin against God.

The problem with most, is women liberation, it put prejudices in people's minds, for they have seen it slowly become acceptable.

I would give verses once again, but I have already done so, they have been completely rejected.

And yes I know, my stand is not political correct nor is it popular.

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Lets see, if a married woman becomes president of this United States, she them has authority over her husband.

But some say, she can do this if her husband OK's it. But a husband cannot OK something that God says is wrong, a wife taking authority over her husband is wrong, even a sin. A husband cannot give his wife permission to sin against God.

The problem with most, is women liberation, it put prejudices in people's minds, for they have seen it slowly become acceptable.

I would give verses once again, but I have already done so, they have been completely rejected.

And yes I know, my stand is not political correct nor is it popular.


This acutally brings up a good point Jerry. I've encountered several women, and several men too, that claim if a husband tells his wife to do something sinful that she's supposed to do it because Scripture says a wife is to obey her husband.

Does Scripture anywhere say a women should obey her husband above God?

Why is it some folks believe if a husband tells his wife to go against what Scripture commands that she's somehow right to do so?

Does Scripture saying a woman is to submit to her husband override everything else Scripture says we are or are not to do?

Does anyone have the biblical authority to command another to sin and thus the sinner is justified in their sin because this other one told them to sin?

Could some be taking the command for wives to submit to their husbands to unbiblical extremes?

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John, My quick thought on it is this verse.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Base on it, if man tells us to do something that is a sin, them we should obey God on that matter.

Yes, I've heard many say that the wife has to obey their husband as well, even if he tells them to do something that's a sin. One pastor on the net said that would include committing adultery, wife swapping, wearing immodest clothes, going bar hopping, stealing, and so forth.

I disagree whole heartily, that is if the husband tells the wife to do something that is a sin, she ought to obey God.

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That's exactly the sort of thing I've heard said Jerry. I've heard many Christians say that if the husband tells his wife to dress like a prostitute, not read her Bible, watch porn with him, and shoplift, then she has to do these things because the Bible says she is to submit to her husband.

Like you, I totally disagree with this. Scripture is clear we can't obey God in one way by disobeying Him in another way. God never calls us to sin in order to obey Him. How very contradictory and hypocritcal would that be?!

The husband is not authorized by God to command his wife to sin and wives are not justified in committing sin because their husband told them to.

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Lets see, if a married woman becomes president of this United States, she them has authority over her husband.

But some say, she can do this if her husband OK's it. But a husband cannot OK something that God says is wrong, a wife taking authority over her husband is wrong, even a sin. A husband cannot give his wife permission to sin against God.

The problem with most, is women liberation, it put prejudices in people's minds, for they have seen it slowly become acceptable.

I would give verses once again, but I have already done so, they have been completely rejected.

And yes I know, my stand is not political correct nor is it popular.


How do you reason that the president, whether it be a man or a woman, has authority over another human? How do you define authority?

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That's exactly the sort of thing I've heard said Jerry. I've heard many Christians say that if the husband tells his wife to dress like a prostitute, not read her Bible, watch porn with him, and shoplift, then she has to do these things because the Bible says she is to submit to her husband.

Like you, I totally disagree with this. Scripture is clear we can't obey God in one way by disobeying Him in another way. God never calls us to sin in order to obey Him. How very contradictory and hypocritcal would that be?!

The husband is not authorized by God to command his wife to sin and wives are not justified in committing sin because their husband told them to.



I realize that many do not believe that the OT is "our mail" (not meaning anyone on this board, just an introductory statement), but Numbers does tell us that the husband is very much responsible for things concerning the wife. For instance the matter of vows: if a woman vows a vow and her husband does not negate it, she is to fulfill it - and it is the husband's responsibility to see that she does. If she vows a vow and he negates it, the responsibility for it is on him. The interesting thing is that there is nowhere in the NT that changes that. In fact, the command for a woman to submit rather reinforces it.
(BTW - those who enter political office vow a vow...and if a woman enters with her hubby's permission, he is allowing it...)

As far as submission goes: noone who truly knows the Bible - in principle and command - could say that every command a man makes should be obeyed by his wife. However...any woman who is born again has an extra responsibility upon her: that of obeying her husband in the Lord. That doesn't mean only those things she claims are scriptural. That means obeying.

Please don't assume I am advocating that she steal for him...read on...

If the Christian woman is submissive to her husband in the way in which she should be, the Bible promises that by her conversation (lifestyle, not nagging! :icon_mrgreen:) she will win her lost husband. I believe that would apply to backslidden husbands as well (although it could mean a lot of agony). If she is properly submissive, not submissive in a manipulative way (we all know women who are submissive only when it will profit them...) then if her husband proposes something that is unscriptural, she may go to him and explain scripturally why she cannot do such a thing. Very few men will resist a truly spiritual woman who pleads her case lovingly. I've met women whose husbands have insisted on them sinning - but who were not truly submissive in the first place. Husbands know the difference!

A political office is different than a marriage. A person elected to a position is a servant to all of his/her constituents. In a marriage, there are only two in the arrangement. And it is a partnership, with the head (the man) and the neck (the woman). Different animals....

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I realize that many do not believe that the OT is "our mail" (not meaning anyone on this board, just an introductory statement), but Numbers does tell us that the husband is very much responsible for things concerning the wife. For instance the matter of vows: if a woman vows a vow and her husband does not negate it, she is to fulfill it - and it is the husband's responsibility to see that she does. If she vows a vow and he negates it, the responsibility for it is on him. The interesting thing is that there is nowhere in the NT that changes that. In fact, the command for a woman to submit rather reinforces it.
(BTW - those who enter political office vow a vow...and if a woman enters with her hubby's permission, he is allowing it...)

As far as submission goes: noone who truly knows the Bible - in principle and command - could say that every command a man makes should be obeyed by his wife. However...any woman who is born again has an extra responsibility upon her: that of obeying her husband in the Lord. That doesn't mean only those things she claims are scriptural. That means obeying.

Please don't assume I am advocating that she steal for him...read on...

If the Christian woman is submissive to her husband in the way in which she should be, the Bible promises that by her conversation (lifestyle, not nagging! :icon_mrgreen:) she will win her lost husband. I believe that would apply to backslidden husbands as well (although it could mean a lot of agony). If she is properly submissive, not submissive in a manipulative way (we all know women who are submissive only when it will profit them...) then if her husband proposes something that is unscriptural, she may go to him and explain scripturally why she cannot do such a thing. Very few men will resist a truly spiritual woman who pleads her case lovingly. I've met women whose husbands have insisted on them sinning - but who were not truly submissive in the first place. Husbands know the difference!

A political office is different than a marriage. A person elected to a position is a servant to all of his/her constituents. In a marriage, there are only two in the arrangement. And it is a partnership, with the head (the man) and the neck (the woman). Different animals....


Where does Scripture promise that a godly spouse will win their spouse to Christ? I recall where Scripture mentions that if an ungodly spouse determines to leave the spouse in Christ they are to let them go because they don't know whether or not they could ever win them to Christ or not.

I agree that a wife is to submit to her husband but not to the point where she must sin.

Several years ago I knew a woman whose husband had some control issues and sexual issues tied to this. He would make his wife dress very immodest (mini skirt, tiny, revealing top, no underwear allowed) and then he would drive her to the mini-mart. He would park as far away as possible and then have her walk to the mini-mart, buy one pack of cigarettes (steal more if she could) and then walk back to him. He enjoyed watching this and enjoyed watching others ogle her. She even said that on one vacation they went on he took her to a topless beach and made her spend the day there topless.

This woman felt she had to obey her husband. Some Christians and even some pastors, agree. They have said she must obey her husband even if to do so she has to sin by dressing immodestly, be the cause of others lusting, stealing, ruining her witness, exposing herself, giving the appearance of evil by looking like a prostitute, etc.

That is not biblical.

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Where does Scripture promise that a godly spouse will win their spouse to Christ? I recall where Scripture mentions that if an ungodly spouse determines to leave the spouse in Christ they are to let them go because they don't know whether or not they could ever win them to Christ or not.

I agree that a wife is to submit to her husband but not to the point where she must sin.

Several years ago I knew a woman whose husband had some control issues and sexual issues tied to this. He would make his wife dress very immodest (mini skirt, tiny, revealing top, no underwear allowed) and then he would drive her to the mini-mart. He would park as far away as possible and then have her walk to the mini-mart, buy one pack of cigarettes (steal more if she could) and then walk back to him. He enjoyed watching this and enjoyed watching others ogle her. She even said that on one vacation they went on he took her to a topless beach and made her spend the day there topless.

This woman felt she had to obey her husband. Some Christians and even some pastors, agree. They have said she must obey her husband even if to do so she has to sin by dressing immodestly, be the cause of others lusting, stealing, ruining her witness, exposing herself, giving the appearance of evil by looking like a prostitute, etc.

That is not biblical.


1 Peter 3:1,2:
"Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear."

Scripture is really quite plain on the matter. As to the woman you mentnioned: She very likely didn't appeal to him about his "issues." And it is possible she wasn't living a chaste lifestyle before him at home. I know a number of women who complain that their husbands are this or that, require this or that of them....but they are not truly submissive. I've seen them make faces at their husbands, heard them speak in a disdainful tone of voice to them or about them (even in front of their kids), etc. Attitude does out - and if a Christian woman's attitude stinks, her husband knows it.

I agree: it's not biblical. But we don't know that her reaction to it was biblical, either. Unless we are in a person's home for a while (as I have been with women like I referenced above), we don't really know what goes on. Someone can appear spiritual to us when they really are not...

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1 Peter 3:1,2:
"Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear."

Scripture is really quite plain on the matter. As to the woman you mentnioned: She very likely didn't appeal to him about his "issues." And it is possible she wasn't living a chaste lifestyle before him at home. I know a number of women who complain that their husbands are this or that, require this or that of them....but they are not truly submissive. I've seen them make faces at their husbands, heard them speak in a disdainful tone of voice to them or about them (even in front of their kids), etc. Attitude does out - and if a Christian woman's attitude stinks, her husband knows it.

I agree: it's not biblical. But we don't know that her reaction to it was biblical, either. Unless we are in a person's home for a while (as I have been with women like I referenced above), we don't really know what goes on. Someone can appear spiritual to us when they really are not...


That does not promise a lost spouse will come to Christ, it says they "may". Otherwise, this would contradict where Scripture says a saves spouse can't know whether they could win their lost spouse or not.

No doubt, we can't know everything about another person or couple. I do know this woman was very submissive to her husband and he took advantage of that. I also know there is no justification for her or him in what they did.

A husband has no biblical authority to command his wife to sin and a wife has no biblical authority to obey a command to sin.

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That does not promise a lost spouse will come to Christ, it says they "may". Otherwise, this would contradict where Scripture says a saves spouse can't know whether they could win their lost spouse or not.

No doubt, we can't know everything about another person or couple. I do know this woman was very submissive to her husband and he took advantage of that. I also know there is no justification for her or him in what they did.

A husband has no biblical authority to command his wife to sin and a wife has no biblical authority to obey a command to sin.



I realize that the word "may" seems indefinite. But it comes from a word that means the same as "shall." So, it is a promise.

Your last statement is just a repeat of what has already been said and agreed with...do you think I think it's okay for a man to command his wife to sin or for her to do it? If so, either you haven't read my posts or I haven't been clear enough - sorry, if that's the case.

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I realize that the word "may" seems indefinite. But it comes from a word that means the same as "shall." So, it is a promise.

Your last statement is just a repeat of what has already been said and agreed with...do you think I think it's okay for a man to command his wife to sin or for her to do it? If so, either you haven't read my posts or I haven't been clear enough - sorry, if that's the case.


I checked a couple of commentaries and both said this verse means a godly spouse will have a better chance of winning the lost spouse to Christ; not that this is a promise a lost spouse will be won. I've also heard this preached on and the same was said.

No LuAnne, I understand what you believe, I just mentioned that again because there are so many others who take the position that if a husband commands his wife to sin she must obey him and she is justified in sinning because she's obeying her husband and only the husband can be held up as doing wrong in such.

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I checked a couple of commentaries and both said this verse means a godly spouse will have a better chance of winning the lost spouse to Christ; not that this is a promise a lost spouse will be won. I've also heard this preached on and the same was said.

No LuAnne, I understand what you believe, I just mentioned that again because there are so many others who take the position that if a husband commands his wife to sin she must obey him and she is justified in sinning because she's obeying her husband and only the husband can be held up as doing wrong in such.



The term "may" can indicate possibility, permission or promise. In old english "may" was often used to indicate the same meaning as we get when we use "will" and "shall." I've read lots of commentaries and heard lots of preaching on it too - and there've been more than one conclusion. Revelation 22:14 says "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

We know that the only way to heaven is through Christ, and this verse is not teaching works. However, note that the word "may" is used twice. So - if "may" is not sometimes the same as "shall" and "will," I suppose that there is a possibility that we won't have the right to the tree of life or enter through the gates? Don't think so!!!

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The thing is, as you well know, each person has their own will. There have been many very wonderful Christian men and women who has been married to a lost person, that have set wonderful examples, yet their spouse never freely accepted Jesus as Savior.

That is one of the heart breaks a Christin has when they marry and unbeliever, and of course doing so one is not obeying God.

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The thing is, as you well know, each person has their own will. There have been many very wonderful Christian men and women who has been married to a lost person, that have set wonderful examples, yet their spouse never freely accepted Jesus as Savior.

That is one of the heart breaks a Christin has when they marry and unbeliever, and of course doing so one is not obeying God.


Yes, every person has his or her own will.

When a Christian marries an unbeliver, they are starting out in disobedience and will reap the results of that.

The Bible says that a lost husband will be won to the Lord by the wife's life. I believe the Bible.

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Yes, every person has his or her own will.

When a Christian marries an unbeliver, they are starting out in disobedience and will reap the results of that.

The Bible says that a lost husband will be won to the Lord by the wife's life. I believe the Bible.

Ma'am,
Do you believe every godly woman who has a husband who is not a believer will see him saved?
God bless,
Crushmaster.

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I believe the Bible too, but it does not say every godly woman who has a lost husband, if she will live a godly life in front of him, that the lost husband will be saved.

But there is a very good reason for the godly wife to live the godly life. In doing so there is hope, if she doesn't live the godly life, there is not much hope for the husband nor children.

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The Bible does not teach that the unsaved spouse of a saved person will come to Christ.

Scripture tells us that if a lost spouse decides to leave then the saved spouse should let them go because the saved spouse can't know if they could win them to the Lord or not. Since Scripture doesn't contradict itself, there is no way the verse in First Peter could be a promise.

Scripture is clear that no matter what one does there is no guarantee they can win another to Christ.

We can't make sure anyone, not a spouse, child, parent or anyone, comes to Christ by anything we do.

We can make it far more likely that another may come to Christ by our prayers and by letting our light shine before them, but we can't ensure they will come to Christ.

Also, just a point that's sometimes forgotten, but in many cases where there is a marriage with a saved spouse and an unsaved spouse, the saved spouse was saved after marriage. Not all unequally yoked marriages are the result of a saved person marrying an unsaved person.

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Okay - you three go ahead and let women whose spouses are unsaved know that God doesn't make any promises to them. That "may" means only maybe...and remember those verses in Revelation, so maybe some people who think they are saved won't make it through the gates....

John, I know that the Bible teaches that if an unsaved spouse wants to depart, let them depart. I really do know that. And I know what 1 Peter teaches. It's there.

But teach that it's just not certain. That would really encourage women to be what God wants them to be, wouldn't it? After all, if there is no surety of salvation, what's the use of living right? Yes, we can say that we should do it because of Christ. And we should. But know what? A woman whose husband isn't saved, whose husband mocks her faith, who has no hope that he will be saved (because, after all, it's only a maybe) will cave eventually.

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Okay - you three go ahead and let women whose spouses are unsaved know that God doesn't make any promises to them. That "may" means only maybe...and remember those verses in Revelation, so maybe some people who think they are saved won't make it through the gates....

John, I know that the Bible teaches that if an unsaved spouse wants to depart, let them depart. I really do know that. And I know what 1 Peter teaches. It's there.

But teach that it's just not certain. That would really encourage women to be what God wants them to be, wouldn't it? After all, if there is no surety of salvation, what's the use of living right? Yes, we can say that we should do it because of Christ. And we should. But know what? A woman whose husband isn't saved, whose husband mocks her faith, who has no hope that he will be saved (because, after all, it's only a maybe) will cave eventually.


Are we only to attempt to win someone to Christ if we are promised we will be successful? What about saved husbands of unsaved wives?

You can't reconcile that Scripture says a saved spouse can't know whether or not they could win their unsaved spouse to Christ with claiming First Peter promises a saved spouse they can win their unsaved spouse to Christ.

Scripture promises no one that they can know for certain that anyone else they try to win to Christ will most assuredly be saved. Such is contrary to the whole Word of God.

I find no discouragement at all in that God doesn't provide us with a promise we can know another will be saved by our actions. Why would I want my works to be a determining factor in anothers salvation?

I fully trust God to work in the hearts of my lost loved ones, otherwise, what would be the purpose of praying for them?

If a husband or wife doesn't love their spouse enough to put the effort into trying to lead them to Christ without benefit of promise of success, then they should search their own hearts rather than complain to God for not promising them success before they even begin.

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